Ok, what do you all think? I have watched myself and others climb things on TR. I notice two things:

a) top-roping makes us do moves in ways which would never work on lead. IE laybacking super thin tips cracks-- you would never do this cos you could never place proper gear.

b) top roping makes us stop thinking about moves and risk and makes us climb inefficiently.

Many climbers make these same claims, but for me, if anything, it has always been the other way around: on toprope I find it easier to stay focused on the climbing; after all, what else is there to focus on? And if I'm more focused on the climbing, I'm more likely to be more focused on climbing more efficiently; after all, what else about climbing is there to focus on?

You claim that TRing you do moves that you wouldn't do on lead. Your example (the layback moves) notwithstanding, are you sure that you're not climbing too cautiously on lead. Maybe on TR you are willing to do thinner, dicier, or more dynamic moves; whereas, on lead, you look for less risky ways to climb the same section of the route. Perhaps you even mistakenly believe the latter to the be the more efficient approach of the two. Usually, it isn't. One of the big breakthroughs in my climbing came when I realized that the riskier, more more dynamic climbing I would do while TRing actually was the more efficient way to climb, and I started to strive to to climb the same way on lead.

Jay

I think you can get a lot out of top roping. I do feel leading is the best, and try to lead as much as I can. But feel there is a lot to learn in TR, first you can learn moves you would never try on lead. For fear of fall, bad pro or just trying something totally new to you in movement. I have a lot of respect for head pointing I have used this technique to do highball problems on many occasions. I also like TRing when ice climbing. It takes a lot of stress out of my mind when ice climbing, which for me can be high when at new area, or do to bad ice. I have also found myself leading, when I will use a movement I learned on TR. I personally have found TR to be a great learning tool. Plus it is fun to climb with little stress do to fear of falling.

...on toprope I find it easier to stay focused on the climbing; after all, what else is there to focus on? And if I'm more focused on the climbing, I'm more likely to be more focused on climbing more efficiently; after all, what else about climbing is there to focus on?

hi verticon.
your comment: what's the point in leading ? The movements will be the same, the problems will not change.
--
the problem solving is much different because the consequence has changed. because of this you are much more attentive to how you climb and how you commit, both of which are critical parts of problem solving.
with that said, of course there is benefit in toproping. it really boils down to if we value learning, which only occurs outside our comfort zones, or if we just want to stay within our comfort zones. if we are honest with ourselves about this then we can learn while leading or toproping.
arno

lead climbing is what makes a man, toproping is lame

Well, I've been leading for almost a decade now and I'm no man. Thank God.

...Do I toprope? Heck yeah I toprope sometimes. In fact, the most pleasing climbing I've ever done was a multipitch climb in which I followed every single pitch...

Ah Curt, maybe that is why I've not become a man yet.

When I first started climbing harder grades I was all for the lead but every move I seemed to do was small and extremely static for fear of peeling off and in turn innificient with many more lock offs and clipping high bolts from way down. Eventually I began to try a couple of routes on TR, after I had sent the route in order to clean it. I found many better ways to do moves and forced myself to use those moves on lead making myself more confident and more efficient on rock. As for those who say it is bad to lead like you are on TR, I say it is simply bad to flail on rock, and I am happy moving at about 20 moves per minute during actual climbing time (excluding route finding and rests).

As long as you don't TR my lead and then tell me how easy it was...I won't ram a #10 hex up your rectum, girth-hitch your privates, and rap-bolt your forehead

Other than that...TR, lead, beat your pud...whatever...just enjoy being where you are, doing what you're doing

Verticon:

I was responding to the poster above who said that leading makes a man. Clearly, and luckily, leading doesn't make a man. This is what my 'vast' experience tells me.

As far as whether toproping is stupid, I don't think so. There are many ways one can enjoy and gain positive experiences from climbing. I personally would never suggest one is stupid while another isn't. But I also wouldn't be bothered if someone else expressed their opinion.

Is this informative enough for a post in the Rock Warrior's forum? Was it more informative than suggesting that leading makes a man? If I have failed in the informative-only-test, please forward the posting criteria to me and I will adhere to these policies in the future.

edit: My "thank god" comment was not intended to be an insult to being a man. It only represented that I would be a really creepy man, breasts and all.

edit2: I didn't respond to one of your questions. Do I toprope? Heck yeah I toprope sometimes. In fact, the most pleasing climbing I've ever done was a multipitch climb in which I followed every single pitch. Read about it here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=255575&msg=255575#msg255575. I also followed every single pitch when we climbed at Whitesides (more cool photos here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=313825&msg=314098#msg314098). I also top roped a lot after I broke my arm. Like I mentioned above, I feel there is nothing wrong with toproping for myself. But I don't speak for everyone and I certainly don't wish to set criteria for anyone but myself.

Also, at the end of a day of climbing, why not take another run on TR to get your forearms burning one last time? It will only lead to more strength in the long run.

So Spikeddem, if you led a route, lowered, and had a chance to climb it again on TR before you pulled the rope you wouldn't take that opportunity? Now imagine you're at indian creek and this climb happens to be a perfect 140 foot splitter. I don't see why you wouldn't, especially if it was a very high quality climb that would improve your strength and technique. I agree that TR differs from leading in many ways but climbing is climbing. Having a strong body is equally important in climbing as a strong mind and TRing routes will do that.

The rock warrior's way stresses how climbing, unlike most sports, is equally divided in the need for strength, technique, and mental abilities. Anyway, I don't want to bicker anymore on this forum. I can see that we won't agree. Thanks for you views.

Strength as important as technique? In any case, I'm not sure if you were thinking that I was saying that the mental game is a smaller portion than physical conditionining--if so, that's not how I meant to come off. I meant to suggest that the mental aspect is much greater.

do what Ever u want. U climb 4 U, they climb 4 themselves..climb live enjoy

do what Ever u want. U climb 4 U, they climb 4 themselves..climb live enjoy

Learn to write like an adult.

*plonk*

Learn not to judge.

*splat*

Ok, what do you all think? I have watched myself and others climb things on TR. I notice two things:

a) top-roping makes us do moves in ways which would never work on lead. IE laybacking super thin tips cracks-- you would never do this cos you could never place proper gear.

b) top roping makes us stop thinking about moves and risk and makes us climb inefficiently.

I made this resolution some years ago-- if a route takes gear, I will only lead it. I will not top-rope. I woudl rather risk falls on trad gear than top-rope, because I find that it is only leading which focusses and clearsw my head an dmakes me really step into it.

Obviosuly I have not climbed grit death routes where there is zero room for errror! It's not like I'm a hardman or anything, but I was wondering, what do you think for telling beginners? We always say "oh top-ropes tons of stuff!" I say, bag that-- soon as you can, start on the sharp end.

I got a question. Say I lead a two pitch sport route, my partner is going to follow on both pitches, I get to the top of pitch one and set anachor for myself, and begin to belay my partner, pulling in the slack as he climbs. Isn't he on a top rope? Does this make him less then me?

Yes. We've all seen the gym noob burl his way up that 5.10 climb but have you ever seen a 5.7 climber technique his way up a 5.10? I think not.

So you think Chris Sharma is "stoopid" (sic) ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMWc-CKshO8

lead climbing is what makes a man, toproping is lame