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the_shoe
Jan 9, 2007, 2:22 AM
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I have heard this question proposed on this site by wantabee tradies over and over again. It is usully followed by some really good advice by those who have been leading trad for a while and have gone the route of finding someone more experienced to follow and learn from. Then the reply from the newbie follows:
"I haven't the time to find a mentor I want to lead now." or "I have tried to find someone and I just can't find anyone in my area."
We all think the same thing when we see these reponses to good advice:
"You won't have time for anything if you are dead. And if there is rock in your area that you can lead on trad, then surely there is someone who has been leading there for quite a while. And who would be more then happy to take on an apprentice."
I have been lucky enough to have found a very competent and understanding mentor who has taken me under his wing for the last year and a half. We have climbed many of SoCal's classic Trad routes together and every step of the way I have asked questions and payed attention to everything he does. I was never really truly aware of what knowledge I was retaining and what knowledge was lost untill recently.
The two of us decided that it was my time to begin leading routes. I started slowly leading a couple second pitches to some multi pitch routes while my mentor followed and qritiqued my placements, rope management, anchor setups and etc. Then after a while I was told to spread my wings and fly with out him being around to critique every step I made.
This is where and when you start to realize how all of those hours and feet spent paying attention add up. There are so many factors in leading Trad that can arise on any given route and if you haven't seen them before or experienced them you have know idea how to handle them. No matter how easy a route is you always need to remember that when you leave the ground anything can happen.
For instance after you have put your life in jeoperdy leading a climb and you get through it by the skin of you teeth you still need to control the destiny of your partner. How can you safely do that if you have never been on that end of the rope before, if you have never come to a perfectly built anchor made by your mentor at a sketchy belay after a hair raising climb. How else are you going to beable to set up a good belay anchor on a climb you don't know, that has no anchor info, when you placed the pieces that you needed to build it.
I can go on and on for ever and I already have. Bit since I have began leading I am thankful everyday for the knowledge I have picked up from a good friend and an even better mentor. Leading is so much easier when you feel like you feel comfortable in handling any situation thrown at you. Now it's time for me to continue the learning that only comes from leading.
Thanks to all of you who take the time to give people like me a level head to begin the educational period that is leading Trad.
Keep it up.
(This post was edited by the_shoe on Jan 9, 2007, 2:51 AM)
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tattooed_climber
Jan 9, 2007, 2:41 AM
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nice to see a none retarded post in here, good on ya
been trying not to pull my hair out over the last few "i-have-no-commonsense, tell-me-what-gear-to-buy" type threads that have popped up everywhere with military precision.
my rule of thumb is, i don't rush when i'm climbing*, so why rush to learn it.
*-unless the whole 'flight-or-fight' thing kicks in
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the_shoe
Jan 9, 2007, 2:46 AM
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rockprodigy
Jan 9, 2007, 3:23 AM
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I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just offering a counterpoint....
I never had a mentor, and I'm doing pretty well with trad climbing. For some people, it is probably very helpful, but not everyone. Face it; rock climbing is not rocket science (if people can climb stuff when they're completely drunk and/or stoned--and they do!)
For very methodical, thoughtful people who don't mind learning at a slow pace, then having a mentor is great.
For people who can't wait and want to jump right into trad climbing adventure, I suggest you go for it...learn by doing!
I'm glad you've found something that works for you.
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dingus
Jan 9, 2007, 3:43 AM
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Mentos! They said, "Dude get a mentos or something."
I said
"What is my climbing THAT BAD."
"Oh its bad Dingus, but not THAT bad."
WHAT???
DMT
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styndall
Jan 9, 2007, 4:00 AM
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the_shoe wrote: rockprodigy wrote: I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just offering a counterpoint... Face it; rock climbing is not rocket science (if people can climb stuff when they're completely drunk and/or stoned--and they do!) In my opinion this quote completely dispells your counter point. Can't even understand why you decieded to type it. I mean tons of people drive drunk all the time and no one ever kills a family of four on there way to Disneyland. Sure people with no regard for thier own lifes can just jump on anything and try Trad. But lets not forget about the poor sap that has agreed to follow your route with shitty placements, poorly protected traverses, and manky anchors. I've read your same argument before in other "I want to lead posts." and understand this is your stance toward learning how to climb Trad. And I guess if everyone where to feel this way we could all subscribe to "Accidents in North American Moutaineering" for it would be a monthly publication.
Placing trad gear isn't rocket science. Hell, it's not even high school physics. If you can't figure out how to place a cam on your own, I'd be real worried to climb with you. What if you bumped into a situation that you never covered with your mentor?
I did follow a couple of trad pitches before I ever lead any (Thanks, Dirk, if you're out there), but a mentor? Nah.
The mentor system is fine for some people, but the reverence with people consider placing trad is ridiculous.
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the_shoe
Jan 9, 2007, 5:00 AM
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I don't understand why in your responses placing gear is being used as an example of not being "Rocket Science." As if placing gear is the most dangerous part of Trad leading.
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angry
Jan 9, 2007, 5:23 AM
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I think the VAST majority of us lifers never had a mentor. We had someone show us a couple things, over a couple days. Everything else was on our own motivation and intuition.
To say that a mentorship is needed for everyone who wants to climb a gear protected route, is an insult to everyone who's ever done it on their own.
Another point is that of helpless behavior. Specifically, learned helpless behavior. If you are constantly having your hand held, you are going to need to have your hand held, whether or not your mentor came with you that day. To set out on your own, knowing that your knowledge, judgement, and skill is going to have to sufficient, well that's a kind of climbing a mentor can never teach.
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a.a.
Jan 9, 2007, 6:01 AM
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Some well reasoned responses in this thread. Having a mentor is a great system for many people but to say that it is necessary or that anything else is unsafe is absurd.
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the_shoe
Jan 9, 2007, 6:01 AM
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Before this whole post gets misconstrued and goes down the tubes like so many others. I just want to say that I have nothing but respect for all of you who make the choice to don some gear tie into the rope and climb something maybe a few others have.
I share the same reckless, carefree attitude as so many others and a lot of choices that I have made in my life refelct that.
All I wanted to do was climb and I happened to find someone to climb with that taught more a shit load of information. And I wanted to share how valuble I felt that was.
If my posts have insulted any of the "self taught lifers" out there then I apologize, but then again maybe it wasn't my post that caused you all to be insulted.
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notapplicable
Jan 9, 2007, 6:26 AM
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I think all "the shoe" was trying to do was express his gratitude and respect for the relationship that he had with his mentor. I didnt get that he was in anyway trying to dump on any other school of trad, unlike some people who took a big old squat over his post.
The only mentor I had when learning trad was a copy of "how to sport climb" (go figure) and some pictures on the internet of how to properly place a hex. Several partners, plenty of terror and a broken arm later I think I've pretty much got it wired. Despite all that I wouldnt have it any other way. The experiences I have had learning and refining the art of trad have been some of the best of my life and I wouldnt trade them for anything. I suspect that "the shoe" feels the same way about the times he shared with his mentor and the tuition to his school was probably a damn site cheaper than the $10,000 in medical bills I racked up.
If your unsure about your ability to learn trad, have fun and stay alive all at the same time I say get a mentor. If nothing else you will be performing a public service by getting the senior members of our community off the sofa and up on those 5.3's they do so enjoy.
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the_shoe
Jan 9, 2007, 8:47 AM
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In short what do you call a partner that you find that is much more experienced then you and wants to share that info with you? For lack of a better term I call him a mentor. By the definition of the word thats what he turned out to be, I didn't seek him out to be a mentor that's just what he became.
Just for the record he had me lead much harder and scarier pitches then 5.3. The old you gotta learn sometime, might as well be now mentality. It's me who seeks 5.3's now.
notappilcable, thanks for traveling the tracks I am laying down. Gratitude was my true intent.
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wanderlustmd
Jan 9, 2007, 1:08 PM
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Good comment. It's true, but since doing it right is so important it's easy to get extreme. And rightfully so, since what is more important than walking home at the end of the day?
I don't think it really matters in terms of having a mentor, per se, as long as you get quality instruction. I took a few climbing courses via guides, read tons on gear placement, etc. Actually, before my first official lesson, I had learned from books and practiced placing at ground level. When I built an anchor for the guide for him to see where I stood, he said the placements were all sound. It isn't the hardest thing in the world, just make sure you know what you're doing.
Climbing with more experienced climbers is always a good thing. One good friend of mine I met through RC.com is a longtime climber, and I've learned a lot of time-variations on things that help, as well as hearing lots of good stories.
(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Jan 9, 2007, 1:09 PM)
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br
Jan 9, 2007, 2:26 PM
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Props to people who figured out the system almost completely on their own. I wouldn't be where I'm at today if it was not for a a certain person who gave me a trial by fire "mentorship". Let's just be honest, trad climbing requires more technical knowledge than sport climbing and bouldering. To get out there and try to figure it out on your own requires more sack than most of us have.
We live in a fast paced world were we want everything now and don't want to have to put alot of effort into learning something complicated. Instant gratification if you will. In my opinion this is one of the contributing factors to the rise in bouldering among the young generation. Quick and instant and you don't need a "mentor to show you the ropes.
By the way 50 % of my climbing time is spent bouldering. Let the flaming begin.
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s2w
Jan 9, 2007, 4:09 PM
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Learning from a good mentor is one of the best ways to educate yourself in the art of climbing. It sounds like the_shoe was fortunate enough to find a good one, and it's refreshing to see his appreciation.
That said, the most important tool in any climber's toolbox is their own mind. Judgment is key in any information received, whether it be from a mentor, a climbing class, or even (especially) on rc.com.
IMO the best mentors are those who realize this and are able to look critically at their own knowledge, and are not doing things just because "that's the way I've always done it and it hasn't gotten me killed yet." Good mentors teach their students how to think, not just how to do specific things. Kudos to all those out there who do just that.
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dingus
Jan 9, 2007, 4:35 PM
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angry wrote: We had someone show us a couple things, over a couple days. Everything else was on our own motivation and intuition.
As much as I may admire your climbing ability I doubt you made it up as you went. If climbing were simply intuition most of us would be surfing or something.
I never had a MENTOR.
I did climb with many who helped mentor me nevertheless. I larnt something from most every partner I ever had. But the quiet volumes I picked up in the company of more experienced climbers, often without asking or explicit 'training,' you know, just climbers doing their thing.
The 'how to's' I picked up from books. Climbed my first wall based strictly from a how-to book, partner equally noob. But the savy, cept for a vew accidental or otherwise infrequent revelations, the savy came from working with more experienced climbers.
Mentors in other words.
Now some take their mentoring role seriously, and perhaps most do not, quien sabe. But even you angry, are likely mentoring someone, perhaps without even noticing?
Cheers
DMT
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bobruef
Jan 9, 2007, 4:35 PM
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the_shoe wrote: ... How else are you going to beable to set up a good belay anchor on a climb you don't know, that has no anchor info, when you placed the pieces that you needed to build it.
I believe this statement better advocates learning by doing, rather than illustrating the necessity of a mentor.
Mentors are great if you can find them. For me it was better to learn it on my own, with lots of questions and feedback bummed from randoms at the crag.
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caughtinside
Jan 9, 2007, 5:36 PM
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the_shoe wrote: But lets not forget about the poor sap that has agreed to follow your route with shitty placements, poorly protected traverses, and manky anchors.
Hey! Those poor saps are friends of mine! And I'm pretty sure we were having fun despite the volumes of shitty placements, poorly protected traverses (always a hoot!) and manky anchors (a game in it's own right.)
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iamthewallress
Jan 9, 2007, 6:02 PM
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caughtinside wrote: the_shoe wrote: But lets not forget about the poor sap that has agreed to follow your route with shitty placements, poorly protected traverses, and manky anchors. Hey! Those poor saps are friends of mine! And I'm pretty sure we were having fun despite the volumes of shitty placements, poorly protected traverses (always a hoot!) and manky anchors (a game in it's own right.)
I bet you didn't notice me obscuring your view of the anchor every time it was your turn to jug? I say, with ASCA stamped freshies, why waste weight on more than one nano-wire. I mean, have you ever really heard of one of those things failing?
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caughtinside
Jan 9, 2007, 6:07 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: caughtinside wrote: the_shoe wrote: But lets not forget about the poor sap that has agreed to follow your route with shitty placements, poorly protected traverses, and manky anchors. Hey! Those poor saps are friends of mine! And I'm pretty sure we were having fun despite the volumes of shitty placements, poorly protected traverses (always a hoot!) and manky anchors (a game in it's own right.) I bet you didn't notice me obscuring your view of the anchor every time it was your turn to jug? I say, with ASCA stamped freshies, why waste weight on more than one nano-wire. I mean, have you ever really heard of one of those things failing?
Bomber! 
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camhead
Jan 9, 2007, 6:16 PM
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I never had a mentor. I climbed– and still climb– with people of all abilities, sport, trad, bouldering, even in the gym. I learn something from each of them. This helps my climbing get better.
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cchas
Jan 9, 2007, 10:01 PM
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I'm a believer in mentors but not to say that this placement is shist or good since its something thats not that hard to figure out.
For me the mentors I've had (and they were mostly the 5.12/5.13 trad A5 leaders) who taught me things , mostly by watching what they've done, and it was mental attitude (which I am still trying to incorprate into my climbing). Its an attitude about dinking in good gear (and being anal about it) when you need to and going for it when you should (which I am still working on since I leave a lot at the table still. )
(This post was edited by cchas on Jan 9, 2007, 10:06 PM)
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mojede
Jan 10, 2007, 3:04 AM
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You don't NEED a mentor, but will have appreciated all that you learned from them after they've left.
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acollins
Jan 10, 2007, 3:38 AM
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I'll say this. I have never been trad climbing before but hope too this summer. I myself will most likely learn from a book or two and then do some short climbs to learn placement. I've got some 30ft climbs in my area. And then move on to bigger and better stuff. At the same time though I plan to take some climbing classes after I finish my skydiving cert. Even if i'm trad climbing by then or not then I still plan to take classes to improve my skills.
I've got no problem putting my life in my own unskilled hands but i'm never going to put my climbing partner in danger. She means the world to me. Plus shes the only climbing partner I have. :-)
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