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missedyno
Sep 18, 2002, 12:37 AM
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okay.
i'm going to be totally honest.
i can climb, i can push myself and everything good like that, but sometimes (i'm embarrassed to say) i've leaned back on society's gender oriented expectations and slacked.
i'm by no means a "girly girl" by any definition, not really fragile, bla bla....
but i have (especially when climbing with my boyfriend) not tried as hard. looked at a climb and tried something easier, because i know that, whether i support these views or not, less is expected of me since i'm a chick.
anyone else out there who knows they aren't pushing themselves as much as they can?
i'll get really mad (bitchy) after a night of climbing where i know i said things like "oh i'm just a girl i can't do that".
thoughts?
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climberchic
Sep 18, 2002, 12:57 AM
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Never said used my gender as an excuse, but I often use my injuries as an excuse. Although the pain is genuine, I don't suck it up often enough because the guys let me get away with it.
I definitely don't push myself as hard as when I'm with women. I'm used to being the strongest one amongst my female friends that I am around and am inspired by women stronger than me. I think I'd push myself much harder than I am with the guys.
[ This Message was edited by: climberchic on 2002-09-17 18:01 ]
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climbchick
Sep 18, 2002, 1:03 AM
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I don't push myself too much but it's more because physically hard climbing just isn't that interesting to me. If it was, I would probably train a lot and go all out and expect to climb just as hard as the hardest male climbers. The only time I use my femininity as an excuse is when it comes to stuff like fixing things . . hehe . .
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froggy
Sep 18, 2002, 1:20 AM
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I don't think I have ever used being female as an excuse for anything. But, if I were to go out climbing with a girlfriend that does not lead - I would probably push myself, because I was the one responsible for leading up the rock. Hopefully in return, my partner has a good / positive day of climbing
If I were with a guy or gal partner that has more experience than me, I would not feel as eager to push myself, because I know they can handle it..
~Sara
[ This Message was edited by: froggy on 2002-09-17 18:22 ]
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missedyno
Sep 18, 2002, 1:28 AM
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yeah, i push myself more climbing with people i don't know that well....
i hate it though when i'm being just fine and they feel the need to mock me for being the only girl, though i'm not doing anything. like going out on a multipitch with a male partner and the whole time you're holding your own, and doing fine, and everything's good... then when you get back to the camp you hear them being all manly and saying things like "oh she did okay" and "she didn't wine too much" and make it sound like they dragged you up the climb. i've been completely relaxed on a climb and then later heard my partner (we don't climb together anymore) say "oh jess looked worried on the climb" like i was sitting on a ledge trembling with fear and daydreaming about all the babies i hope to have one day.
now THAT really really really pisses me off.
(and it hurts )
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climbinggirl33
Sep 18, 2002, 1:29 AM
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You know, it's funny . . . all the guys I climb with know that the way to get me to climb HARDER is to say "ahhhh, a girl probably couldn't make that move!" Now that's incentive!!!
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froggy
Sep 18, 2002, 1:36 AM
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Crazylikeafawkes,
I am glad to hear that you are no longer climbing with that jerk any more. I had a partner like that.. When I first started climbing I would follow him up long routes and he would give himself a huge pat on the back for climbing it sooooo well. It was all about him and his bragging rights..
Now I climb with people that appreciate all forms of climbing regardless of if you lead it or not - you still did the climb.
Screw climbers with big ego's!~ Climb to climb not to brag!
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missedyno
Sep 18, 2002, 1:45 AM
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yeah... thanks, froggy....
i had been hearing for awhile from other people "you're climbing with the wrong people"
...
so true. last trip with them i was "ditched" the saturday night at camp... saying they were doing some climbs that were too hard for me. too hard? this was about 3 full grade levels below what i had climbed earlier in the weekend. they tried to set me up with someone else for sunday, but due to communication failure, i ended up with no climbing partner at all.
funny thing, i used to get all sorts of "climbing partner" offers when i was single. i guess they were hoping they could get something out of it?
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dyno2acrimper
Sep 18, 2002, 1:54 AM
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The only time i have ever used being a girl as an excuse (not really an excuse)...was when some of the guys i was climbing with gave me crap...then i went and did a move they couldn't...said HA, you just got beat by a girl...and walked away. they don't give me crap that much ne more...
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missedyno
Sep 18, 2002, 2:22 AM
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yes, and i agree with skibabeage.... but i worded this according to the unfortunate yet still in existence views from society.
i'm a strong female, riot grrrrl, all that good stuff, just looking to see if anyone ever gives in every so often...
climb on girls
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jt512
Sep 18, 2002, 2:34 AM
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Quote:
I don't suck it up often enough because the guys let me get away with it.
I think you mean and we let you get away with it, not "because."
I'm sure that this is partly a gender issue, but also just a matter of taking an opportunity to avoid doing something that is uncomfortable. For instance, when I trad climb, I rarely lead when I'm climbing with a better trad climber. It's just too easy to take the easy way out.
-Jay
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climberchic
Sep 18, 2002, 2:59 AM
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I did mean "because".
I suck it up much more often when I'm climbing with girls.
Is that waht you meant?
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jt512
Sep 18, 2002, 3:03 AM
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"'Because' the guys let me get away with it" sounds like you are putting the blame on the guys.
When I wuss out and let my partner lead an intimidating trad route, it's not his fault that I don't lead it. It's me not pushing myself.
-Jay
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daisuke
Sep 18, 2002, 3:14 AM
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I know that many times the women I've climbed with have fallen back on their femininity for the excuse that they can't finish a route. but the truth is that many these girls are defeatists, they start off routes thinking they'll never finish them. I've done this myself but I blame it on not enough strength
There is nothing better (in my mind) than a person that goes for it and gives it all to do whatever it is they're trying to do better... and do it for themselves, not to impress others. giving up is not cool...
that said.. I think we all blame things for our failures at one point or another as excuses, and not to appear better in the face of others, but in our own eyes, do justify our own faults.
we all have our reasons, and I'd say that one of the objectives of life is to face these reasons and get over them.
so... power to the women and power to the ppl!!! everyone go for it!!!
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climberchic
Sep 18, 2002, 3:33 AM
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Oh, I see Jay.
No blame at all on the guys! They let me get away with it because I'm a girl (I think. It may be because they know I will kick their butts ) when I know they would never let their guy friends get away with it.
So therefore- because I get away with it, I wuss out more.
Sound better?
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jt512
Sep 18, 2002, 3:35 AM
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That's what I figured you meant in the first place, but then you could be right that we just don't want you to beat us up, too.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-09-17 20:36 ]
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jprice
Sep 18, 2002, 3:38 AM
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Using femininity as an excuse only hurts YOU really. You might as well convince yourself that you can't do a certain climb because you have blue eyes, etc. Using the "I'm a girl" excuse for anything only feeds into the social stereotype of women as weak. I don't feel weak and I'm sure that you really don't either. Be strong, be a woman, roar a little. Okay roar A LOT. If you don't want to do a climb or don't want to push yourself that's one thing, but it doesn't have anything to do with being a woman.
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nikegirl
Sep 18, 2002, 3:39 AM
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Let's see...
I can't think of any time I used my gender as an excuse in climbing...
The fact is...this is the first thing in life, that I've done that I feel is good for me...just for me, only for me.
I love that I have found my nitch.
I don't use the excuse of a gender as I would say: I don't climb that grade...
But, if I don't know a grade...then I can't use that excuse. And I giver 'er a good old try. I power until I just can't grip. I'm not much for giving up.
Truthfully, NO I never use my gender, as an excuse.
I shall climb, hike/ approach (killer ones too) and not complain...huff on the lack of my lung capacity. But, generally I've been told, I'm easy going and determined. I like that, for I do my damndest to not complain...learn, and enjoy it all as an experience.
Strength, Power ...I am proud.
babbling* as I do so well...it's a GURL trait *
T
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nikegirl
Sep 18, 2002, 3:44 AM
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not understanding that above post on deleting...?? whu?!?!?!?
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climbchick
Sep 18, 2002, 4:31 AM
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Martha -- I am not the one who deleted that post but I think it was done with good intentions. This is supposed to be a tightly moderated forum, meaning that certain types of posts will be removed . . i.e. cat-calling, anything offensive (i.e. obscene language), anything off-topic.
However, since the forum is only a few hours old, we haven't quite figured out all "the rules" and need to come to some kind of consensus about what is appropriate here and what is not. Since we're all going to be using this forum, I think it would be a good idea to encourage a general discussion rather than leaving it up to the mods to make all the decisions. That way, we can hopefully come up with a forum that meets the needs of the majority. I know this is likely to stir up a heated debate about Free Speech, etc, but I'm sure we can all handle it
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cragchica
Sep 18, 2002, 5:13 AM
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It varies very much from partner to partner... Most of the time I feel my femininity to be empowering but there are occasions when I'll not push myself as hard because I don't have to.
Usually I am motivated by the fact that I am a woman. I get a huge kick out of seeing a guy's face when I accomplish something he didn't think a 'girl' could do. I have always been like this... whether while hiking out of the Grand Canyon as a little girl and refusing the offer of a piggy-back ride to the top with a shake of the head and a sprint up the trail, or working my butt off to get the highest grade in my AP physics class because I was the only girl.
When it comes to climbing, I am generally the same way, if I see somebody do a climb, I want to do it too - if it's a guy I can show up - all the better. Usually guys are asking for it, because they are macho by nature. It's not as fun to compete with women, because they aren't as overtly competitive as guys usually are.
Sometimes climbing with guys drives me to try harder to reach their level, but sometimes I drive myself harder when I am with people who don't climb as hard as me, because it's up to me to lead the routes.
The best, however, is climbing with another woman who is at (or slightly above) my ability level - we push ourselves and end out not only climbing harder, but having more fun with the challenge too.
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catwoman
Sep 18, 2002, 5:49 AM
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I don't need to impress anybody with awesome climbing skills. I mean, I want to be safe, etc. but as far pushing myself too hard, using excuses because I'm female..... no need. I just like to climb. I'm not competing. Not doing it for anyone but me.
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calamity_chk
Sep 18, 2002, 6:18 AM
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Erica .. interesting point on wussing out in front of the boys more often than the girls .. I tend to be the opposite. Though, most of my male partners tend to push me harder than my femme partners do ..
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rock_diva
Sep 18, 2002, 6:30 AM
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I don't use gender as an excuse... except if I'm being sarcastic...sometimes we (climbing buddies and I) good-naturedly trash talk -- they'll say "you're just a little girl...bet you can't climb that." And when I crank something tough that they have trouble with, "man, you must be embarrased to be shown up by a girl!"
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climbsomething
Sep 18, 2002, 1:49 PM
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Nah, what I really do is (over- ?) invoke the "short clause." I am not the shortest out there, but I am not tall either (5'3) and trying to use holds or get to gear placements that 6 foot tall men use... grr! Maybe you want to argue that my height is due to my sex, but that's now how I see it. Short is short. I see short men struggle too. We commiserate. (but they're still always taller than I am )
So, I have excuses, but being a woman isn't one of them
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bigevilgrape
Sep 18, 2002, 8:20 PM
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ive only used my state of girlyness as an excuse to try harder. all any one has to do is say "look the chick cant do it" and i become super motivated to do it.
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likethegoddess
Sep 18, 2002, 9:04 PM
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I've never used my gender as an excuse, but I have used my size as an excuse for not getting reachy holds. Now, I'm working on my dynos.
Strangely enough, I feel like I push myself hardest when I boulder alone. Well, not all along, but working a problem on my own. I push myself too, when I'm being supported and getting good beta, etc. I push myself less when I'm working a problem with someone else and they send it first. Some latent competitive urge comes up and I sort of shrink for going full-out. Weird, huh?
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nikegirl
Sep 18, 2002, 9:20 PM
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no not weird...I understand that completly. Bouldering is challenging and fun that way. Challenging and motivating. I don't shrink...as much as I tend to try harder...after watching the moves, and try them too...may never get it, and frustrated as hell...but, that exausts me, and I feel like I've tried hard...and feel good for not giveing up.
I don't get enough outdoors bouldering.
seems vertical is the majority vote...
about here, in my circle. Gym, though (bouldering) is all I do..I go alone, meet up or not with others. But, I am more motivated with beta, and working them with others guidance. I tend to hit the harder problems then.
T
[ This Message was edited by: nikegirl on 2002-09-18 14:24 ]
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likethegoddess
Sep 21, 2002, 5:25 AM
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Oh, nike, I mean weird that I'd shrink back like that. But when I think about it, that makes sense. I'm really not competitive that way. I do best when I'm challenging myself or getting supported by others, but when it's anything remotely competitive I lose confidence. Hmmm, something to work on.
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indigo_nite
Sep 24, 2002, 12:18 AM
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i think the flip side of under-rating your climbing abilities when climbing with men (like relying on their leading) could be expecting men to be more able than you (generally). sometimes i feel like i expect more climbing knowledge (physical technique and skills) out of guys but realize this is skewed.
we're kind of conditioned to think maybe men will solve the problems or get women out of a difficult fix. i wonder if women can develop climbing confidence by getting mentored by other women or being in an environment that encourages more risk-taking. (versus being around guys, you might kind of relinquish the risk-taking role b/c they step up more quickly) no hard facts, just hypotheses...
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climberchic
Sep 24, 2002, 1:02 AM
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indigo~
Very good call. That is one of the many reasons behind this forum. To get support from each other. Like I said earlier, I tend to underperform when I'm climbing with men and get embarassed when I have to wuss out in front of women. I climb with all guys ALL the time. I really am interested in seeing what an all women's climb would be like.
I forgot what organization hosts this, but there is an annual "Chicks with Picks" climb in Colorado. I actually thought about trying ice climbing just to see what it would be like to climb with all women.
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russmanswife
Sep 24, 2002, 3:31 PM
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i have never used the fact that i am a woman as an excuse for not doing something, i can keep up with my hubby in whatever he is doing if i can't do something it is mostly because i don't have the experience yet although there have been times where my size comes into play and i just can't physically do it at those times i just remember i gave birth to an 8lb 6oz baby what man can say that. i was raised never to expect less from myself than what i am capable of and i am capable of doing just about anything. my mother told me i can do whatever i wanted to and i still believe that.
bobbi
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kcrag
Sep 27, 2002, 11:22 PM
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Gotta love being a girl! It means we have the CHOICE of using our femininity as an excuse. Not my excuse, however, because I'm always motivated to push as hard as I can, regardless of my assumed gender "weakness". Love climbing with the guys, especially when I can match their strength/skill.
ALTHOUGH... nothing beats a gentleman who opens a door for a lady...
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spider-woman
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Oct 4, 2002, 12:00 AM
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I don't really think of my feminity as an excuse to be weak. In fact I get angry about it. When my friends (boys) and I go climbing and they have to say let's do an easy one next for her, I get upset, but the truth is I am a girl and a weak one. Maybe I should remember that fact when I can't complete a climb and not get so upset about it.
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rockbabe
Oct 5, 2002, 12:13 AM
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"ALTHOUGH... nothing beats a gentleman who opens a door for a lady... "
I couldn't agree more!
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amsam
Oct 5, 2002, 10:58 PM
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I'm sure I've used it as an excuse before, but I definately try not to.
But something that seriously pisses me off is when guys just assume that because I'm a girl, I'm weaker and they won't even let me try to do something.
Earlier this week I was at work stocking shelves and stuff. It was getting close to closing time and we had a few tables of stuff that were outside in front of the store and my manager told me that they needed to be carried in.
Now these were big tables and it usually takes 2 people to carry them. But in the past I've been asked to carry them around and I've managed to do it by my self.
Anyway, just as I was heading outside to get them, my manager called me back to ask what I thought I was doing. She told me that she wanted the guy that was working up front at the register, Rob, to help her carry them in and that I was supposed to watch the register for him while they did that.
When I asked her why she said that it wasn't a job for a girl to do. Now that would have been bad enough even if it was a really buff guy. But Rob has got to be one of the laziest, unhealthiest guys I've ever met, and he has trouble just carrying around 10lbs.
It tool both of them struggling just to drag the tables inside, and I'm able to do it on my own!
Okay, I feel better now after being able to vent. Has that ever happened to anyone else?
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nikegirl
Oct 6, 2002, 9:00 PM
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heheh
yep all the time
today, moving a dishwasher..
today, getting a utility/appliance dolly outta the back of the truck. I met a friend to help me(key word ME) Not me HIM.
lol
I got help from a friend, who thinks along the line as: women are weak, and made for birthing ***
OMG!!!
I am a relativly open person...so, I don't throw my beleifs onto anyone. I don't debate..or get political.
but, I did...
take the dolly from his hands, and took it to the back and loaded it...as he yapped on...I do beleive he was testing me to see if I would "puss" out...
for his wife, is the epitomy of "girly"
Not I.
I basically needed his strength to lift it into the back. That was all.
*but, I do have to have my lipstick.
just is an is...
that's as girly as I get
T
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krustyklimber
Oct 6, 2002, 10:28 PM
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Umm OK ~T~
And the lipstick thing... don't even get me started!
You did seem to let me "play the man" when you were pukin' on my shoes... thanks Not so tough then were ya?
No really, ~T~ is a tough girl, she was so sick I really felt bad for her, she used and needed no excuses on me... She is the epitome of "girls kick ass!"
Jeff
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nikegirl
Oct 6, 2002, 11:25 PM
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hehe
Yep!!
Now KRUSTY was awesome!!!
I was soooooooo sick...
and? That was a time of need.
Not remotely livin' on my gender.
plain ol sick. Hurling!!
Jeff, rocked!!!
I couldn't even think, let alone "Parent my child" I was GONE. Ick.
Jeff? YOU so saved my ass!!! He set up my tent...fed my child...took Brody onto a walk, let me sleep off a little of my sick.
I was in total NEED!!
Miserable, and Jeff stepped up to the plate.
um....jeff???
But, I do remind you??
I did get up in the middle of the night...
still sick, and TRIED and ATTEMPTED to take Brody to the Bathroom...?????
GODDESS!!! That was Comical!!!
*and "who...WHO kept his ass in his tent, laughing???*
hrmf???LOL!!!
I can't thank you MORE!! You are a true Gentleman!!
how are those shoes, BTW???
LOL!!!
T
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aelita
Oct 20, 2002, 3:57 AM
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femininity as an excuse? when my guy friends tell me - you are such a girl - I usually say - you know, last time I checked, that was correct. In fact, I AM a girl, if you haven't noticed! I try not to pay attention to people who say - don't do this, let me help you with that - just cause I am a girl. Hey, if they want to carry this heavy thing, well I'll let them. It doesn't mean I can't do it, but I won't if they are so willing to do it for me.
And yes, sometimes I use being a female to my advantage, I'll smile to get the parking guy not to give me a ticket (like that EVER works... sigh) and I will accept a free drink from a guy who tells me I am cute. I don't see a reason not to.
In general, I find that people who think - oh, she is just a girl - tend to underestimate me and that often gives me an advantage. I push myself to my limits, to how far I feel I can or am willing to go. It has nothing to do with the fact that I am female, just that I am me.
Sure, I think I climb better when I am with someone who has higher expectations from me. Its a subconscious thing actually, and, as a trained behavioral scientist, I can actually list references to literature explaining such phenomena.
So I don't quite understand what you guys mean by - using femininity as an excuse? Excuse me I can't do it 'cause I'll break my nail? I wonder if that's what you mean by femininity? To me, that's purely personal choice, wrapped in a shiny "girly excuse" wrapper.
My cousin's wife, four days before their wedding took it "easy" mountain-biking. Her excuse - "if I fall, it won't heal before my wedding anymore!" (In Russian we tend to say, when a child falls and hurts themselves - don't cry, it will heal before your wedding). Would you say she was using her femininity as an excuse for not going all out that day? I wouldn't. She had her reasons, and to her, that day, they were valid. It had nothing to do with her being female, just with her being worried about a big day in her life.
I've seen men make similar choices and push themselves less sometimes. Or more, and then say it was because a female was present. Would you say then, when men are pushing themselves really hard in the presence of a female, they are using their masculinity as an excuse?
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caligurl4evr78
Oct 20, 2002, 7:09 AM
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Registered: Oct 20, 2002
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I am new to climbing but whenever I participate in a challenging sport I'm not ashamed of knowing my limits or what I feel comfortable pushing myself to...and if guys have less expectations of me it just makes it easier to set my own limits. Besides, Im always the one who needs MORE limits not LESS so a so a little chauvinism (not justified but deff effective b/c I'd rather give in and enjoy the day than get on everyone's bad side) probly helps me not get too crazy. Anyone relate? Or am I totally off base? I think if you are confident in your own person then guys being disrespectful are just a minor annoyance and not a huge source of frustration.
-Ann
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missedyno
Oct 22, 2002, 7:34 PM
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Registered: Nov 21, 2001
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LOL... i took auto mechanics too. it was fun when a bunch of guys wouldn't let me play and they tried to jack the car up on the OILPAN!!! lol lol i had to show them where the transmission case was, and they dented the oilpan. so funny!
they let me play along after that...
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russmanswife
Oct 22, 2002, 8:09 PM
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Registered: Oct 5, 2001
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just an afterthought i used to work in sawmill long long time ago only female in the whole building (there were only two of us total) the only thing worse than the guys not letting you do things because you are a girl is being coddled like you don't have the physical ability to do it. i worked just as hard as them if not harder most of the time. my hubby does it to me too. instead of teaching me the right way to lead and set up the anchor he had me do it another way with quickdraws and then he had to go up and clean it for me, yes i got on his case. i can do it if you let me i will let you know if i can't why is that so hard for men to understand?
bobbi
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missedyno
Oct 22, 2002, 9:49 PM
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Registered: Nov 21, 2001
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bah, let's not generalize, or it'll become a heated debate and then all of our posts will disapear...
sure we say we are flattered if the person we are with opens the door for us, but i also like to do that for my partner, it's a respect thing. i'm not old fashioned, i'm not 100% "feminazi".
i have to admit sometimes that it's okay to have stuff done for ya... but russmanswife is right, you have to catch yourself doing it and say "hey i need to know how to do that" in this case, it could mean our safety.
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