|
TBlake84
Feb 11, 2007, 11:20 PM
Post #1 of 30
(15862 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 49
|
Hey guys. I am looking for an answer to this one.
I am researching jumaring systems and am amazed by the abundance of differing hardware and uses. I currently use a prussik sling at my chest and a petzl ascension above it for my feet. I am aware of a system that utilizes a croll for the chest and keeps the ascenion at the top for the feett, and this is the system I would like to use (less tiring and seems smoother when I watch people us it) but it seems like the croll would get in the way when switching to rappelling. Is this the case?
If so, is there a big difference between the above system and using two ascensions in a frog setup in terms of efficiency? I am ascending pretty long distances and need an efficient system. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
cintune
Feb 12, 2007, 12:10 AM
Post #2 of 30
(15833 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1293
|
As you say, there are so many different ways to rig it, you really have to try a bunch and see what works best for you. I like using two ascenders (ropeman) with a Purcell prusik foot loop on top and other one extended off the harness, with another foot loop attached to it for stability.
Switching over to rap is a chore no matter what.
(This post was edited by cintune on Feb 12, 2007, 12:12 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Feb 12, 2007, 12:30 AM
Post #3 of 30
(15818 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
If you need to switch to abseil with any frequency, you might want to work a gri-gri into your system. If you use a gri-gri on your belay loop and a jumar above, you can go from jugging to rapping in no time flat.
The method does preclude the frog system, though.
|
|
|
|
|
TBlake84
Feb 12, 2007, 12:33 AM
Post #4 of 30
(15811 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 49
|
I am conducting the ascending on a 7/16" static line. I know the gri-gri only accomodates up to 11mm. Will it still work with the 7/16"? 7/16" is slightly more then 11mm...... hmmmm
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Feb 12, 2007, 1:57 AM
Post #5 of 30
(15796 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
TBlake84 wrote: I am conducting the ascending on a 7/16" static line. I know the gri-gri only accomodates up to 11mm. Will it still work with the 7/16"? 7/16" is slightly more then 11mm...... hmmmm
I hadn't considered that. I've never jugged anything bigger than 10.5mm.
Given that limitation (unless the gri-gri specs are conservative and it would handle your 7/16; maybe you should borrow one and verify experimentally), I'd probably just use your regular frog and hope you don't need to rap very often.
|
|
|
|
|
TBlake84
Feb 12, 2007, 2:19 AM
Post #6 of 30
(15781 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 49
|
well, I will be rappelling often. I am actually using this system to ascend into trees to do some canopy research and photography.
I just strapped on my harness and visualized how I would swith from ascending to rappelling with the croll in place and I suppose if I clipped into a figure eight on a bight (for backup) and loaded just the top ascension device, I could unclip from the croll and rig my figure eight, transfer the load to that, unclip the ascension, unclip my backup figure eight on a bight and rappell. Does this sound do-able? I guess it would make it easier if I wasn't doing all of this on a loaded rope but this is not the case. Any suggestions?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
TBlake84
Feb 12, 2007, 3:14 AM
Post #9 of 30
(15751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 49
|
I am familiar with TCC and have been in contact with a few of their members. I have actually been doing this for a while but I am now looking for a better system and prusik knots are extremely frustrating to ascend with at 5am in zero degree weather.
Anyways, it seems I am going to end up with one of two systems. Either the ascension/croll (frog) system or the ascencion/gri-gri setup. I guess the deciding factor will be if the gri-gri will accomodate a 7/16" static line. It works out to be slightly larger then the documented max of 11mm for the gri-gri. Can anyone answer that for me?
|
|
|
|
|
treemonkey
Feb 12, 2007, 3:51 AM
Post #10 of 30
(15737 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 76
|
I have used a gri-gri with several different tree climbing ropes of varying diameters and had no problems with any of them so I suggest the yo-yo system discussed on TCC just do a quick search on there and you can find some pics.
|
|
|
|
|
TBlake84
Feb 12, 2007, 3:57 AM
Post #11 of 30
(15735 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 49
|
what diameter ropes have you used the gri-gri with? I just want to make sure before I plunk down the change for one.
I am unable to find the yoyo system pictures you speak of. can you link them? Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 12, 2007, 4:35 AM
Post #13 of 30
(15709 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Feb 12, 2007, 4:58 AM
Post #14 of 30
(15695 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
If your not jugging long distances, shorten up your sling on your ascender and hook it to the line under your prusick. Then to change over, hang from your prusick while you attach your rap device, next step on your ascender loop to release the weight on your top prusick, then hold off the rope in your rap device while you weight it, then remove bottom ascender. Now you can rap sliding your losened prusick with you or remove it. I leave the prusick on as a backup and its simple to put the ascender back on line if you need to release your prusick again.
|
|
|
|
|
moof
Feb 12, 2007, 5:23 AM
Post #15 of 30
(15680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 400
|
If you are doing more ropework than say following an aid climb, then your better bet is to look into caving style systems.
For example the double bungy rope walker rig uses a chest box and with ascenders below it, which gives hands free operation. The Mitchell system uses a dobule pulley chest box with one ascender below and one above.
A further one I've used does not appear in the literature and uses two ascenders above a double chestbox.
See a theme here? A chest box in the system will keep you upright and keeps the thrashing to a minimum. With all of these make sure you think out your backup. Make sure you won't die or end up upside down if the chestbox fails, or one of the ascenders fail. See the book "On Rope" as a good source of info on these systems, and http://www.onrope1.com/ as a good source of the bits and pieces (or whole shebang).
Also consider how to rest in such rigs, high efficiency does not always lend itself to easy rest positions.
|
|
|
|
|
TBlake84
Feb 12, 2007, 1:35 PM
Post #16 of 30
(15639 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 49
|
Well, I've decided to try out the gri-gri. My only question is will it work with my two ropes of 7/16" static and 9.8mm dynamic. The listed range for this device is only 10 to 11mm and both my ropes are only slightly out of this range - would they still work?
Thanks for the help everyone.
|
|
|
|
|
chh
Feb 12, 2007, 2:35 PM
Post #17 of 30
(15617 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2005
Posts: 110
|
Hey there. I do quite a bit of climbing with a frog system. I don't think the gri-gri is your best choice for 7/16" static line, unless it has a really soft hand. I think trying to pull it through might be even more tiring than your prussic setup. Granted I use a very stiff static line (PMI "pit" rope) and there are much softer static's and semi-statics out there. Depends on what kind of rope you have. A gri-gri might work just fine with some of the softer statics, I don't know. A gri-gri will work great with your 9.8 dynamic line though.
The best resource I've seen for the frog style ascending system is a book called "Alpine Caving Techniques" by Georges Marbach and Bernard Tourte.
You can buy it from www.caves.org in the "book store" link under caving techniques.
|
|
|
|
|
chh
Feb 12, 2007, 3:07 PM
Post #18 of 30
(15600 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2005
Posts: 110
|
TBlake84 wrote: I just strapped on my harness and visualized how I would swith from ascending to rappelling with the croll in place and I suppose if I clipped into a figure eight on a bight (for backup) and loaded just the top ascension device, I could unclip from the croll and rig my figure eight, transfer the load to that, unclip the ascension, unclip my backup figure eight on a bight and rappell. Does this sound do-able? I guess it would make it easier if I wasn't doing all of this on a loaded rope but this is not the case. Any suggestions?
This would be doable if you are jugging on dynamic line though not the best way. If you are jugging on static I would recommend against this.
Assuming a frog style setup w/ a knot or mechanical at your waist (petzl croll in your case) and one attached to your foot loops (petzl ascension in your case) a change over is relatively simple but takes some tweaking of the length of the leash you use to attach your harness to your top ascender or knot. You should be able to reach your top ascender and operate it when you are weighting the leash that attaches you to it by sitting in your harness. You can check this on the ground easily. It should also be long enough to give you a decent stroke.
To change over to rappel:
1. Get your two ascenders as close together as possible, you will be weighting your croll or lower ascender.
2. Thread your rappel device with the unweighted rope beneath your two ascenders taking care to get it as close to the bottom of the lower ascender as possible.
3. LOCK OFF your rappel device.
4. Step into your footloop thereby weighting the upper ascender and remove the lower ascender (croll).
5. Sit back down carefully into your locked off rappel device. You should be able to weight the rappel device at this point with no weight on the upper ascender. This is where the proper length of your leash connecting you to your upper ascender will be important.
6. Remove the upper ascender from the rope.
7. Unlock your rappel device and descend.
Using this method you will always have 2 points of contact on the rope while changing over and you will not have the possibility of falling onto a backup knot on a static line should your upper mechanical fail or you otherwise screw up....something I certainly would not want to do.
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Feb 13, 2007, 2:04 AM
Post #19 of 30
(15537 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
i've used a grigri on 11mm static line which didn't too closely resemble cable yet, and would have to recommend against trying to ascend any distance relying on such a setup, even less to recommend for larger diameter rope.
FWIW, I use it strictly as a backup when jugging 10.5mm (or smaller) dynamic line w/ two handled ascenders, not as a primary ascension device. It's just too much work for more than a couple of strokes. Having it there makes for peace of mind when it comes time to pass a piece and speeds lower-outs, but other than that it's just more work.
I think the advise posted by TBlake makes some pretty good sense. A fifi hook can be handy in the situation he described. PitonRon had some good insight for dedicated jugging setups in his clean walls video, that being once you know the proper sling+foot loop length, tie the sling/foot loop out of a single piece of 1" webbing, such that there will never be a need for adjustment to it.
YMMV, figure it all out somewhere close to the ground.
Edit to add:
For free-hanging jugs the frog system is the most efficient, add a petzl Pantin to the mix and you're cruisin.
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Feb 13, 2007, 2:06 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
TBlake84
Feb 13, 2007, 11:41 PM
Post #20 of 30
(15502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 10, 2007
Posts: 49
|
thanks stymingersfink - great advice. I guess I will be going with the chest ascender after all. Instead of the croll, I will just get a petzl basic (same thing but can be used in self belay situations as well). And maybe I will add a pantin later when I get my tax return... gotta love being a poor college student.
Thanks for all the great advice.
|
|
|
|
|
chh
Feb 16, 2007, 8:26 PM
Post #21 of 30
(15434 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2005
Posts: 110
|
In reply to: A fifi hook can be handy in the situation he described. PitonRon had some good insight for dedicated jugging setups in his clean walls video, that being once you know the proper sling+foot loop length, tie the sling/foot loop out of a single piece of 1" webbing, such that there will never be a need for adjustment to it.
A fifi would be good solution if you were improvising with a daisy chain, but I think if you were going to be doing this very frequently and not actually aid climbing (i.e. your research work in the trees) I would go ahead and tie your leashes to your height and have a dedicated ascending system.
I use a bit of climbing rope tied in such a fashion that I have two lengths to work with: one long leash that goes to my upper ascender (via a locker) and one shorter one that just has a locker for attaching directly to pieces or knots when passing them or rebelays. Both lockers are attached with a double fisherman and the "middle" loop is just an overhand that attaches to my harness with a maillon. If I had a camera I'd just post a picture but I don't.
In reply to: Instead of the croll, I will just get a petzl basic (same thing but can be used in self belay situations as well).
Depending on how you attach it to your harness a croll will work better because it lies flatter against your chest. I used a basic a few times in a frogging setup. I use a croll now and like it much better. But I don't do any roped soloing with a toothed ascender, so I can't say that it would perform as well/better in that arena. You can use a croll for direct rope aid, as in top rope soloing, but you attach it differently than you would a basic, and you use a chest harness or some kind of tensioner to maintain the croll's position. At least according to the petzl website. Your results may vary...
Happy jugging!
|
|
|
|
|
ptpp
Nov 1, 2007, 10:40 PM
Post #22 of 30
(15244 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2007
Posts: 38
|
Hey Tim,
There are as many rope ascending systems as you can imagine. Cavers have nothing better to do than perfect their techniques, and have the market cornered on how to do this best and efficiently.
There is a book by Bob Thrun called On Rope I believe which will teach you far more than you ever need to know. Bob Thrun is said to be possibly the most anal caver on the planet which speaks volumes, so nothing will be missed.
The most popular system for jugging ropes among cavers is the Frog system, invented by Petzl for the deep caves in the Alps. This is the best system for crossing rebelays and such.
The Merricans invented the ropewalking technique, a cumbersome system to get on and off the rope, but really great for long pitches, say 100m or more. Toronto's own Kirk McGregor[sp?] who is certainly the second-most anal person in all creation, came up with the floating cam idea where an ascender is suspended on your knee and held there by a bungy cord attached to your chest harness. The late Ron Simmons, who died cave diving recently, invented the Simmons Roller which is a chest box thing you use when ropewalking. You see these systems on the summit of El Cap when the cavers set up their thousand-metre rope.
Most Yosemite climbers use a system where they just put their aiders on their jugs, adjust their daisies, and up they go. This can be really fast when the rock is less than vertical, but once you're hanging in space, the Frog is the way to go. I like the Frog the best, and use it pretty well exclusively.
Here is everything you need to know about the Frog, but if you have any further questions, hop to it and ask your Wall Doctor.
The Frog System as drawn by Mike! Clelland
Jugging with the Frog System is indeed a ribbeting experience!
You can click here to read the complete Tech Tip over at Climbing Magazine.
Cheers,
Dr. Piton
P.S. Like, thanks to that Hoser Brenden, for giving me the link to the coding tips, eh?
(This post was edited by ptpp on Nov 2, 2007, 12:54 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
phile
Nov 3, 2007, 8:21 PM
Post #23 of 30
(15200 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2004
Posts: 114
|
Awesome--thank you.
1. the Climbing article says any ascender will work--what's the advantage of a croll/basic over a left-handed petzl ascension?
2. how well does frogging work on slabs?
I ask because it would be nice to avoid having 3 ascenders plus a grigri--aid racks are heavy enough already!
|
|
|
|
|
grover
Nov 3, 2007, 10:34 PM
Post #24 of 30
(15178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 569
|
Have you ever looked at a Petzl I'D?
It will take a 10 to 11.5 mm rope.
Also.. going from ascent mode to descent mode with a chest ascender is not a big hassle IMHO.
It's standard fare with any IRATA set-up.
All you do is load your device (descender), pull all the slack through the device till there is none between the chest croll and descender, then lock it off if that's an option.
Now, step into your aiders(attached to hand ascender) and when your weight comes off the chest croll, release it. Now you ease your body weight onto your descender, remove your hand-ascender, and down you go.
As well the "frog system" is very efficient, and when you stop while ascending you are sitting upright, which beats hanging from just your seat harness.
Hope some of this helps.
Edited to add: Get a chest croll, reason being, a hand ascender is too long, and will be floppy. Also the croll is designed to sit flush to your chest.
(This post was edited by grover on Nov 3, 2007, 10:38 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
rigg-access.com
Feb 9, 2008, 7:53 PM
Post #25 of 30
(14983 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2008
Posts: 10
|
Petzl ID's aren't bad BUT they foul up easy if dirty/muddy etc. Personally, the Croll system is a good one, the Croll is designed to sit very flush and is a relatively small (and therefore light) addition that won't get in the way.
|
|
|
|
|
moof
Feb 11, 2008, 12:01 AM
Post #26 of 30
(1219 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 400
|
phile wrote: ... 2. how well does frogging work on slabs?
On slabs the 2 jug, one aider per jug, is very efficient, and is about like doing the stairmaster. Iwould avoid the Frog for this as you basically have to lie against the rock to slide the upper ascender up since both feet are tied up.
|
|
|
|
|
whiskeykid
Feb 20, 2008, 4:24 PM
Post #27 of 30
(1174 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2006
Posts: 34
|
My two bits:
My climbing partner and I have been training for a spring trip to Utah for about 6 weeks. Twice a week we hang a chain and a pulley from the rafters of my shop and take turns jugging a rope while the other person belays out slack through a brake bar. Initially we would each do one full rope length of the two jugs/two aiders method and then one length of frog style, but as we grew more efficient with two jugs we stopped practicing frog style entirely.
I feel that when we were out of shape and out of practice the frog style seemed much easier. The setup is simpler, the movement is simpler, and there's less technique involved. Just reach and stand up! As we got more efficient with two jugs though, it seemed like the frog style was slower and slower. We have since stopped practicing the frog style entirely, and have switched over to the two jug style exclusively. I find that the frog style, or the inchworm as we've come to call it, is such a short movement that has to be fully reset each time. Stop start stop start. The two jug style, once practiced enough and efficiency has been gained, is much more fluid. Now when I compare them side to side it feels like the rope is sailing past me with two jugs while it hardly seems like I'm moving with the frog system.
Perhaps though, if there were two or three free hanging ropes to jug back to back, it may be a different story.
|
|
|
|
|
pmyche
Feb 20, 2008, 7:27 PM
Post #28 of 30
(1148 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 1160
|
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Feb 20, 2008, 11:21 PM
Post #29 of 30
(1132 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
pmyche wrote: Look at the elites and see what they use. By my observations they don't use caving setups.
We were on the P13 ledge of Lunar Eclipse several years ago when the uber-bro's were working the Zod for a FFA. I've never before, nor since, seen someone (well three someone's, including Heinz) jug up a fixed line so god-damn fast. This, after they'd stopped for a smoke break.
for the record, they were using the gold and blue petzl jugs. the 200' up to the ledge were free-hanging, as were several hundred feet of the jug to the top.
|
|
|
|
|
bkalaska
Feb 21, 2008, 12:09 AM
Post #30 of 30
(1123 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 143
|
I have used a gri gri on a pretty fat line, and the main problem is the added friction. It would be more tiring to pull a the rope through the gri gri when ascending than the efficiency you gain in movement. It would be an expensive mistake so I would borrow the gear and try it out before dropping the money on a gri gri.
I would suggest taking to cavers (spelunkers). The most efficient ascension I ever saw was my hydrology professor who was an amazing caver. He had a chest ascender setup that blew me away, and I haven't been able to recreate.
(This post was edited by bkalaska on Feb 21, 2008, 12:12 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
|
