|
healyje
Feb 15, 2007, 9:11 PM
Post #51 of 60
(1211 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
matttt wrote: The point i was trying to make is that you can fall whenever and for me it is usually when i least expect it. Matt, that's not an especially good sign. Short of a completely solid looking hold breaking, I've rarely ever fallen when I didn't know it was a distinct possibility. You should be trying to develop the self-awareness, experience, and judgment as rapidly as possible to get past this phase of things and maybe even throttle back a bit until you do if that's happening a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
matttt
Feb 15, 2007, 10:32 PM
Post #52 of 60
(1193 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 84
|
healyje- trying to make the point that no matter how secure one may feel shit CAN still happen, so be prepared. i did not come into this conversation for a judgement of my ability, but rather to share another perspective on the topic. i respect your views and opinions but feel that you are missing my point.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Feb 15, 2007, 10:53 PM
Post #53 of 60
(1183 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
matttt wrote: healyje- trying to make the point that no matter how secure one may feel shit CAN still happen, so be prepared. i did not come into this conversation for a judgement of my ability, but rather to share another perspective on the topic. i respect your views and opinions but feel that you are missing my point. Matt, I wasn't passing judgment, and I certainly wasn't commenting on your abilities. I was simply responding to what you said you experienced. Regardless of my ability, if I were falling unexpectedly on any regular basis I'd tend to back off. With regards to what you say you were trying to get across, I agree the name of the game is to be as prepared as possible at all time, but I don't agree with the blanket statement: 'no matter how secure one may feel shit CAN still happen' - not with regards to falling. Lots of untowards things can happen unexpectedly when climbing; but again, short of a perfectly fine looking hold breaking, falling isn't or shouldn't be one of them, at least not in my world anyway. Falling doesn't just 'happen' - it can happen fast, it can happen when you wish it wouldn't. But, if someone falls and were completely unaware it was even a fair possibility before they started into those moves, well then if it isn't someone actively learning then I'd personally think there is some sort of issue going on. I rope solo about 50% of my climbing and often solo a pitch here and there in the process and I simply wouldn't do either if I held that view of falling.
(This post was edited by healyje on Feb 15, 2007, 10:57 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Feb 15, 2007, 11:34 PM
Post #54 of 60
(1160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
cracklover wrote: bandycoot wrote: I don't think that it's something you can train. You either have it or you don't, in my experience. <snip> A few weeks later, I took a 70' headfirst fall for a myriad of reasons. Yes, you "have it". But it's the *wrong* it. That "it" will get you dead before long on most moderate trad climbs. GO I know, as a matter of fact, that josh(bandycoot) has "it"....and am willing to stick my neck out with and for him. josh
|
|
|
|
|
puerto
Feb 15, 2007, 11:37 PM
Post #55 of 60
(1160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 229
|
I was just gonna say, I know the original posters didn't even remotely mean it that way, but for those who are new to the sport, be careful with some of the generalizations you read on here.. I.e. safe to fall over 5.9, overhung terrain yada yada.. If you do a couple of pitches of 5.7 to get to an overhung 5.11 headwall and then take a 70 foot whipper on said headwall past your belayer onto the 5.7 stuff below, you're toast..
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Feb 16, 2007, 1:08 AM
Post #56 of 60
(1147 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
flyinglow wrote: notapplicable wrote: All I know is the times that I have gotten hurt in this sport were when I felt safe and didnt think I was at risk. I believe that if you feel that way about falling it increases the chances you will be hurt. If you had engaged in well thought out falling practice, you would have known that those places were dangerous, and would have been equipped to handle the situation differently. I think people should read and comprehend the material before criticising it. Nowhere have i read that the warriors way involves any kind of nonchalance or "knowing falling is safe". Arno repeatedly warns against the dangers of falling without a good understanding of the consequences. The whole point of falling practice as outlined in the warriors way is to learn to understand the consequences of falling starting with very short falls and working up to longer falls in as safe a way as possible. Knowing what will happen when you fall is a necessary part of predicting the consequences of a fall. if you have no experience with falling you can't possibly predict what will happen. Maybe you should actually read the book, instead of just skimming a few pages without understanding the material. nobody yet has said that taking long dangerous falls is the way to improve at climbing. I dont know how you missed it (unless you just skimmed over my post like you bitched about me doing to Arno's book) but this is taken from the same post you quoted.
In reply to: I have read portions of his book but I wasnt realy responding to his suggestions or methods I was responding mostly to the people who have been supporting the idea that the best way to clear your head up is convince yourself that falling is safe. Oh yeah this also.
In reply to: All that being said the WW appears to be a proven method for controling ones fear and if it works, it works. So maybe you should read the post, instead of just skimming a few sentences without understanding the material. Also I have never been hurt in a lead fall (sport or trad), I once forgot to retie my knot properly before lowering and once I was bouldering on easy ground, moved higher than I should have, slipped, hit the ground I was to far away from and hurt my back. Both times I was treating the situation very casually and didnt think that the activities were anything dangerous. Both injuries resulted from human error and the errors were the result of making decisions when I didn't think I was in danger. Now, each of those events only involved one or two decisions that had to be made properly where a gear lead can involve dozens of decisions all of which have an impact on the results of a fall. All I'm saying is that if you make decisions that impact the results of a fall while under the impression that falling is safe because you have become used to it will increase your chances of making the wrong decisions.
|
|
|
|
|
flyinglow
Feb 16, 2007, 2:15 AM
Post #57 of 60
(1134 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 11, 2005
Posts: 77
|
Again, i think that if you had actually read and understood the rock warriors way, you wouldn't think it's all about dealing with fear, or "convincing yourself falling is safe". Nowhere in the book is it said that you should not objectively look at the danger you're in. It's specifically warned against several times. I had read your whole post including what you referenced, but i think you're misrepresenting the purpose of the book by saying it's a way to control your fear. In my opinion, it has very little to do with controlling fear, and a lot more to do with recognising what fear is beneficial, and what is "phantom fear"(fear of the unknown, irrational fear, etc) It's about understanding and coming to terms with the true situation you're dealing with. There is nowhere in the book it says you shouldn't know and accept the consequences of your actions. There's a lot about safety, and making the right decisions, both when under pressure, and in the rest of life. If you were following the warriors way, you would have probably attached the proper amount of significance to the decisions you made, and maybe not made some of those mistakes. At the very least, you would have understood the consequences of what you were doing and made an informed decision about it. Again, the practice isn't for the purpose of convincing yourself that falling is safe, it's to gain understanding of when it's safe or not safe to take a fall and what you can do to lessen the chance of injury so that you can make a decision that accurately reflects the consequences you're dealing with. The reason behind this is to minimize the chance of injury.
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Feb 16, 2007, 3:47 AM
Post #58 of 60
(1121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
If I misrepresented the message of the WW by saying that it is an effective way of controlling fear then I was wrong and it wasnt my intention to do so. And once again, I wasnt commenting on Arno or his methods, I was responding to the notion that the best way to improve or get your lead head back is to conduct exercises that convince the leader that falling is a safe and productive part of the sport.
|
|
|
|
|
robdotcalm
Feb 16, 2007, 4:27 AM
Post #59 of 60
(1108 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1027
|
I own a copy of “Rock Warrior’s Way” but not being into all this head stuff never got very far in the book. You know, I just climb and don’t enjoy introspection and messing with my head. More importantly, I’m a pacificist and am opposed to being a warrior. I have no interest in fighting the rock or even any of the posters in this thread. Pax semper vobiscum. Gratias et valete bene! RobertusPunctumPacificus
|
|
|
|
|
flyinglow
Feb 16, 2007, 1:21 PM
Post #60 of 60
(1078 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 11, 2005
Posts: 77
|
If that's what your main point was, then i'm sorry for the harsh words. I figured you were just one more person who had jumped on the bandwagon mistakenly thinking that Arno is teaching people to ignore risk and fear. Again, anybody that has read and follows the teachings in the warriors way wouldn't believe that falling is 100% safe. The falling practice is specifically geared toward learning how to best deal with the REAL risks associated with falling and not just blindly go into something that's dangerous and not understood. The falling practice is designed to be increased incrementally in order to learn what to expect from a fall. Seriously, the procedure outlined in the book has you start with toprope falls with only a foot of slack in the rope. It's not about blindly taking 70 foot whippers on low angle rock. That's a good way to end up dead quick. Falling isn't a totally safe activity, but if it wan't part of the sport, we wouldn't wear ropes and carry crash pads. In order to maximize your chances of surviving to climb tomorrow, you need to have some familiarity with what's going to happen. The only way I know to learn what to do when you fall is to practice falling. this isn't done to convince myself it's safe, it's done to learn, so i can make better decisions in the future.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|