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happiegrrrl
Mar 4, 2007, 3:27 PM
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disappointing, from a climbing prespective....
While the photos have artistic merit, and it's great to hear these women talking....there's only one shot where someone is actually climbing. The others are (wo)man against the landscape poses.
Surely the slideshow makes me want to go to the physical places shown and be in the mental states talked about....but let's hope the average reader that decides to "try it" doesn't decide to whip out a yoga pose at clifftop as her guide gets ready to herd them down the descent. Or - much, much, MUCH worse - get out there with some pick up guy and do the "trust" lean over cliff's edge..... Yikes.
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amikros
Mar 5, 2007, 3:39 PM
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oooomygod, I know...that picture creeped me out...if anybody ever decided "hey, lets precariously hold onto eachother, you'll be halfway off the cliff, ok?", I'd start walking home
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acacongua
Mar 5, 2007, 4:36 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: While the photos have artistic merit, and it's great to hear these women talking....there's only one shot where someone is actually climbing. The others are (wo)man against the landscape poses.
We're looking at famous climbing women. We've seen a plethora of shots of them climbing already. |
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roflcakes
Mar 5, 2007, 4:59 PM
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wow, you really don't like men at all. Maybe its cuz........never mind
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happiegrrrl
Mar 5, 2007, 5:01 PM
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And that is why the photos might be inspiring to those who are climbers. But, the piece is in the NY Times, and the target audience...isn't us. I have no doubt whatsoever that some people have looked at those photos, and thought things like strength balance pose on a hanging rope is part of climbing.
At any rate - I DID like the photgraphy. But must admit, I would really be more impressed by someone with an ability to get those sort of Ansel Adams/Galen Rowell qualities with more spontaneous, natural poses. I hate to be so critical, being a complete bumblie at photgraphy myself, but that is my perspective on the thing.
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happiegrrrl
Mar 5, 2007, 5:11 PM
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roflcakes wrote: wow, you really don't like men at all. Maybe its cuz........never mind
Do you mind being a little more specific as to your meaning?
1) Which phrase or words give you an idea that I don't like men? Honestly, I am interested in knowing.
2) In writing "maybe it's cuz...." - I am guessing you are insinutating I am lesbian. If so:
- I'm heterosexual, if you feel it's any of your business to know.
- Most people would consider that sort of remark to be the sign of a shallow and immature mind.
- At any rate, I like men very much. As friends, lovers and people in general. I have climbed with probably at least 100 different men since I started climbing, and - save for one - I don't believe you will find any who would say anything even remotely disparraging about me, much less that they thought I "didn't like men."
So....roflcakes - if you think your sticks and stones approach is going to hurt me; it might be to your benefit to think twice about it.
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livvy
Mar 5, 2007, 8:47 PM
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I agree - the target audience likely hasn't seen these women kicking arse and taking names so it is unfortunate that they are posed looking artistic and hot rather than climbing and artistic and hot.
And really...ANOTHER shot where the SOLE purpose of the camera angle is to catch a shot of boobs coming out of a sports bra? Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with pictures intended to titillate but this is so elementary-climbing-photography school. Overplayed, passe, on the wrong side of the "cool" line, we are ready for something more interesting please. Of course, I'm a straight female so perhaps I'm more bored of that shot than others.
Which brings me to my second point. IF the insinuation was that the poster was a lesbian (and I of course can only guess the intent), what would that have to do with their right to have an opinion about how women climbers are portrayed?
Um, that would be a woman on the forum...with an opinion about women in climbing. Who cares who she is or isn't humping?
(This post was edited by livvy on Mar 5, 2007, 8:48 PM)
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livvy
Mar 5, 2007, 8:53 PM
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PS, my letter to the editor:
Regarding your Play Magazine special "Climb like a girl".
There have been thousands of photos of these women climbing hard so it is understandable that a photographer might want to innovate, but most of your readers have never seen the elite women of climbing pulling hard on the rock. Why add to the tradition of static images of women athletes and dynamic images of male athletes? Why focus on breasts threatening to spill out of an upside down woman's sports bra rather than that same woman performing at the top of what used to be a male dominated sport?
As a female climber I'm disappointed in another failure to convey photographically the determination and prowess that those women displayed in the audio of the story.
Sincerely, MY NAME
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thomasribiere
Mar 5, 2007, 9:35 PM
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I find you a bit harsh. What pic are you talking about?
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livvy
Mar 5, 2007, 9:38 PM
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Beth Rodden, upside down.
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thomasribiere
Mar 5, 2007, 10:19 PM
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!? I think your reaction is a bit exagerated. It's in the general tone of the slide show. Well, I'm a guy.
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olderic
Mar 5, 2007, 10:31 PM
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Not that it really matters in the context of this thread but the photographer is pretty well know and respected in the classic art photography world. My wife who is a fairly accomplished photographer and who also doesn't generally give two hoots about climbing, got quite excited when she saw who the photographer was.
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livvy
Mar 5, 2007, 10:34 PM
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The photos are beautiful.
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marinaaxid25
Mar 5, 2007, 11:01 PM
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Alright..I'm going to try to sound neutral here. I can see that the photog's approach to taking these shots didn't suit some of you. I take it that it would have been preferred to have seen these gals in a photoJOURNALISTIC style. Fine art photography shows a lot of aesthetics in its subjects, but can take away the meaning of what they are about. Am I correct?
However, getting into an argument about feminist issues also detract from a more productive discussion. (And this is coming from a woman.) As a former artist myself, I learned not to take criticisms personally. Or else, how else would I have been able to gain more insight from someone else? I guess it's all how these criticsms are said.
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matterunomama
Mar 6, 2007, 1:47 AM
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livvy wrote: The photos are beautiful.
I agree. Have you looked at other photo essays or even article photos in PLAY? They rarely show the athletes in action (altho articles talk about their athleticism).They are art photos/personality studies, not illustrations of the sport.
I thought the multimedia show in which the climbers spoke gave a very nice feeling of what motivates people to climb-all the way from the spiritual to "I just like to win". I cut out a photo of Chris Sharma's hand that appeared in an earlier issue and framed it-because it was a really nice photo and had some meaning to me. However, it illustrated very little about the sport of climbing other than the hand looked really chapped and cut.
As for the boobs, well the woman is upside down. I don't think they did that just to make them prominent. Frankly, I had to go back and look at the picture because I hadn't noticed-what drew my attention when I first saw the shoot was the relative lack of fat on the hips despite the harness cutting in-which shows you where my obsessions are.. What, is she supposed to slump and the photographer shoot from the side, like an old Playboy photo? Hey, women have boobs, men have..bulges. Trust me, we notice. Who could miss that in a climbing harness?
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granite_grrl
Mar 6, 2007, 2:03 AM
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A little disapointed at tone of the slide show. The photos are lovely, but I agree with others that it would be nice to associate climbing like a girl with strong and independant.
The photos could have shown that better, showing some muscles or doing things that everyday people think are near impossible.
But I liked looking at the pretty photos.
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livvy
Mar 6, 2007, 2:23 PM
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It's a good point - I don't pay so I don't know the norm of the medium and couldn't read the other stories - just see the main page shots.
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blonde_loves_bolts
Mar 6, 2007, 4:18 PM
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Keep in mind also that the title of the series is 'Climb Like A Girl'... which would call to mind similar commercial campaigns that were about taking gender stereotypes and converting them into something different and more proactive. This result isn't new to me... maybe it's the disconnect that's more bothersome, then.
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sidepull
Mar 6, 2007, 4:20 PM
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I liked the slideshow. Generally the interviews are far less pretentious than those in, say, Specimen, and the photos offered a unique view (although I didn't think the one of Beth walking down el cap was very good - reminded me of the 60's Batman).
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acacongua
Mar 6, 2007, 4:24 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: And that is why the photos might be inspiring to those who are climbers. But, the piece is in the NY Times
I'm sure if you take a poll, you'll find that many non-climbers have seen plenty of images of people climbing. Those people visit the same magazine section we do to find our monthly climbing rag. Images are all over t.v. as well - climbing images are quite pervasive. For those who are on the outside looking in, they are intrigued by people, and I would think especially women, who do "high-risk," daring "sports." Those images reveal the innate daring and adventurous aspects of the women (didn't you gasp when you saw Steph D. being held at a cliff's edge by someone's hands?) and their voices behind the images speak to why climbing allures them. The question of "why do you do it?" is often asked by those on the outside looking in.
I too was taken back by the boobs hanging out of the sports top, but I'm just a straight female. What do I know?
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iamthewallress
Mar 6, 2007, 6:18 PM
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If I was Beth Rodden, I might get a kick out of the boob picture. Based on writings of hers, she seemed to struggle against seeming like a little kid well into her 20's...so good for her and her bigger-than-I-would-have-guessed boobs for getting to do a womanly shot in the Times.
As far as feminist angle goes, the only part that really bugged me was that the series wrapped up on a gal defining her future by way of the type of guy that she hoped to marry.
But, I figure if this is what's in the woman's hearts (and not just a carefully edited bunch of tidbits that fit the artists agenda), then saying anything else really is propaganda as opposed to journalism.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Mar 6, 2007, 6:44 PM)
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alxg
Mar 7, 2007, 12:53 AM
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she's a 17 year old climber who has seen a lot of climber:non-climber relationships go south. she has also heard from quite a few older climbers that it's extremly important to find someone who truly enjoys the same thing that you're passionate about.
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acacongua
Mar 7, 2007, 1:00 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: As far as feminist angle goes, the only part that really bugged me was that the series wrapped up on a gal defining her future by way of the type of guy that she hoped to marry.
And that's what a feminist would do - hear a female talk about a guy, particularly in regards to marriage and erroneously discern that the female is defining her life by the man. Listen to it again. The chic has decided her life and has found definition ("My one and only true love is climbing." to "I want my life to revolve around climbing."). It sounds like a climber guy is only icing on the cake.
(This post was edited by acacongua on Mar 7, 2007, 1:35 PM)
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iamthewallress
Mar 7, 2007, 4:41 PM
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acacongua wrote: And that's what a feminist would do - hear a female talk about a guy,
A feminist is someone who thinks women have equal rights to men and are just as valuable as individuals. You seem to toss it out there like it's a dirty word.
Did you read the last part of my post? Ya know, the part where I say that if the artist didn't present the women's words, but rather her own agenda, it would just be propaganda?
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acacongua
Mar 7, 2007, 10:25 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: A feminist is someone who thinks women have equal rights to men and are just as valuable as individuals. You seem to toss it out there like it's a dirty word. Did you read the last part of my post? Ya know, the part where I say that if the artist didn't present the women's words, but rather her own agenda, it would just be propaganda?
Yeah, but that statement doesn't really overturn what you said.
Feminism is a great thing and not only is about equal rights, it's about the power of choice. We live in a country where marriage or a relationship with a man, as well as raising a family, is only a couple of choices among the many possibilities.
The real point is, you didn't listen to her. The chick in the film said her interests came first, but the mere mention of a guy in her life called in the feminazi/misandrous outcries. That's when, IMO, the word becomes "dirty" - when we scoff at a woman's choice for marriage and even reproduction.
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iamthewallress
Mar 7, 2007, 10:55 PM
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acacongua wrote: The real point is, you didn't listen to her. The chick in the film said her interests came first, but the mere mention of a guy in her life called in the feminazi/misandrous outcries. That's when, IMO, the word becomes "dirty" - when we scoff at a woman's choice for marriage and even reproduction.
Actually, I did listen to her. And I went back and listened again after reading your last post to make sure I didn't misinterpret her.
My comment might have come off stronger than I intended, but what I was reacting to was the idea that a girl, not a woman, was thinking about "when she grew up and got married". Not if she met the right person, but when. When kids say that (and I thought this way too), it seems almost as though they see marriage and being grown up as part of the same thing. I would encourage my daughter, if I had one, to be happy about a possible future on her own or with a soul mate, since we can't really control whether or not we find one, but we really can trash things if we think that we need to.
The gal in the story also said that she didn't want anything to distract her from her goals (to which I say 'woohoo!'), so maybe it's really just not the time to be thinking about any kind of a partner?
That said, I think where I was really coming from with my comment about being 'bugged' more than actually caring much about this particular climber and her choices/fantasies about the future, was the common trend in women's climbing articles to discuss the women in the context of their men (or potential men in this case) whereas you just don't ever hear about the women in the male climbers life in articles about men's climbing. You hear about their climbing accomplishments with few exceptions.
Sorry this is a little all over the place, but with those thoughts above (hopefully) explained a little better, even if I disagree with her choice to talk about the kind of guy she'd like to marry in a NY Times peice about climbing women, and even though I get sick of the way our men are almost always part of stories about us, I wanted to end my post with a shrug of to each her own. And by each I mean both the girl who wants to marry a climber guy and the artist who told her story.
FWIW, I've been with my partner for 5 years, and we will probably get married, so you can't really say I'm anti-man or anti-marriage. He's really is part of my climbing goals and climbing experiences, but those experiences wouldn't be the first ones I'd include in an article about women climbers.
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Mar 7, 2007, 11:38 PM)
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lhwang
Mar 8, 2007, 12:14 AM
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iamthewallress wrote: acacongua wrote: The real point is, you didn't listen to her. The chick in the film said her interests came first, but the mere mention of a guy in her life called in the feminazi/misandrous outcries. That's when, IMO, the word becomes "dirty" - when we scoff at a woman's choice for marriage and even reproduction. Actually, I did listen to her. And I went back and listened again after reading your last post to make sure I didn't misinterpret her. My comment might have come off stronger than I intended, but what I was reacting to was the idea that a girl, not a woman, was thinking about "when she grew up and got married". Not if she met the right person, but when. When kids say that (and I thought this way too), it seems almost as though they see marriage and being grown up as part of the same thing. I would encourage my daughter, if I had one, to be happy about a possible future on her own or with a soul mate, since we can't really control whether or not we find one, but we really can trash things if we think that we need to. The gal in the story also said that she didn't want anything to distract her from her goals (to which I say 'woohoo!'), so maybe it's really just not the time to be thinking about any kind of a partner? That said, I think where I was really coming from with my comment about being 'bugged' more than actually caring much about this particular climber and her choices/fantasies about the future, was the common trend in women's climbing articles to discuss the women in the context of their men (or potential men in this case) whereas you just don't ever hear about the women in the male climbers life in articles about men's climbing. You hear about their climbing accomplishments with few exceptions. Sorry this is a little all over the place, but with those thoughts above (hopefully) explained a little better, even if I disagree with her choice to talk about the kind of guy she'd like to marry in a NY Times peice about climbing women, and even though I get sick of the way our men are almost always part of stories about us, I wanted to end my post with a shrug of to each her own. And by each I mean both the girl who wants to marry a climber guy and the artist who told her story. FWIW, I've been with my partner for 5 years, and we will probably get married, so you can't really say I'm anti-man or anti-marriage. He's really is part of my climbing goals and climbing experiences, but those experiences wouldn't be the first ones I'd include in an article about women climbers.
I understand where you're coming from... I do think society puts a lot of pressure on women to get married. I know a girl who wanted to be married by 25 with 2 kids by 30 and hasn't reached that "goal" yet, and is devastated by it.
I think maybe you're reading too much into this 17-year old girl's words though. Her exact words were "I want to make sure the person I marry and stuff is into climbing...." That sounds to me like she's hoping that she meets the right person in the future, not that she hopes that when she's married he happens to be a climber too because marriage is oh so important and there's no alternative, dammit, she will be married!
I also think that the right partner will support/encourage/motivate rather than distract, but maybe that's just me.
I kind of find it odd that you make a comment that this article (and others) discuss women in climbing in the context of their men. Beth Rodden and Steph Davis are both married to famous climbers, yet there's no mention of them in this article. Only the 17-year old boulderer talked about a future guy, and I see that as being in the context of climbing rather than the other way around.
But that's just my interpretation... as you say, to each her own.
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debsanders
Mar 8, 2007, 3:34 AM
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When I viewed and listened to the piece I was intrigued. I had some of the same views as others, where is the climbing, my God I'd couldn't do that, yes she does have boobs. But my favorite part by far was Alex Puccio.
I have watched Alex grow into a strong (in so many ways) young women. My take was that her life would always evolve around climbing and that in order to live her life they way she wants then her mate in life will have to be a climber too. The woman knows what it will take to make her happy.
d
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acacongua
Mar 9, 2007, 12:19 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: I was reacting to was the idea that a girl, not a woman, was thinking about "when she grew up and got married". Not if she met the right person, but when. The gal in the story also said that she didn't want anything to distract her from her goals (to which I say 'woohoo!'), so maybe it's really just not the time to be thinking about any kind of a partner?
Well, the one thing that came to my mind was "geez, this is out of concept." So it made me wonder if the interviewer asked the ladies about their relationships and goals and the fact that the girl said what I quoted earlier that climbing came first and "right guy for [her] has to be a climber." just exemplified the inherent female power of this slide show. But I guess it can be misinterpreted when the entire script, including questions and full answers are excluded.
Also, congrats on your long standing relationship!! I'm 30 and have avoided any potential nuptial situations. It just hasn't be right ... yet.
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clee03m
Mar 9, 2007, 2:23 PM
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I wondered the same thing. Must have been asked about relationships then edited to fit the slide. I find it hard to believe if they asked her to make one comment about climbing she would bring up her future spouse. I really liked the other comments.
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bmxer
Mar 11, 2007, 6:09 PM
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those pictures were hella lame. I didn't know climbing was all about holding your body rigid.
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granite_grrl
Mar 11, 2007, 6:50 PM
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bmxer wrote: those pictures were hella lame. I didn't know climbing was all about holding your body rigid.
I know that you're trying to be a smart ass, but body tension is a huge part of climbing well.
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bmxer
Mar 11, 2007, 10:34 PM
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half the pictures didnt' really have anything to do w/ climbing. For someone who's never heard of rock climbing really at all. Seeing someone at the end of a rope holding their body rigid, is not impressive. What is that I mean, some kind of super meditation technique. It just looks like shes showing off something that doesnt even have anything to do w/ climbing.
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alxg
Mar 27, 2007, 10:46 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: bmxer wrote: those pictures were hella lame. I didn't know climbing was all about holding your body rigid. I know that you're trying to be a smart ass, but body tension is a huge part of climbing well.
i'm with you regarding the tension aspect. it's much harder to make static moves then dynamic hail-mary-i-hope-i-hit-the-hold-and-hang-on-moves. i would love to have the core strength that was exhibited by these women.
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