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guangzhou
Apr 11, 2007, 1:25 PM
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codhands wrote: guangzhou wrote: I recomend you make yourself a bolsoms chair Not trying to be a dick, but it's boson chair.
Thanks
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deepplaymedia
Apr 29, 2007, 9:21 AM
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Good on you for taking the time to write this up- personally I don't agree with much of what you have said, but as long as you have a grasp of the basic concepts of how to safe- everything further is just developing a system that works efficiently for you.
Personally, I started out using systems adapted from recreational climbing (because I am a climber!) that were not significantly different from what you suggest, but after (aside from hundreds of days hanging on jumars with a camera) several seasons as a rock/canyon guide & working contracts as a Rope Access Tech. I have adopted various systems from those industries that I believe to work the best for me....
I feel I should add a couple specific safety points though.
*I disagree strongly with working on a dynamic line- whatever you say it IS easier to ascend, and much safer because your rope is not being bounced up and down over sharp edges as you ascend.
*While I use a clove hitch on a locker (on a single bolt) for a rebelay, the main anchor IMO should be equalised between min. 2 points for redundancy. I suppose this come down to what you are comfortable with, but when you're 8 pitches up, hanging over the void as your climbers come past, you want to be concentrating on photos not wondering about your anchor. I have also seen aparently 'bomber' bolts pull out with out much force. It doesn't take much, just back it up.
The thing is, if one bolt does pull and you just have a clove hitch on the other, you will end up shockloading the remaining anchor (OK, it will probably hold, but maybe not. And what about that $2k lens you're just about to put on? bye bye!)
It is not any extra work to make it equalised, so why not?
By the way, the american death triangle (which i saw suggested somewhere) is NOT equalised. if you dont know what it is, GOOGLE!
(This post was edited by deepplaymedia on Apr 29, 2007, 9:26 AM)
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pico23
Apr 29, 2007, 5:17 PM
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deepplaymedia wrote: Good on you for taking the time to write this up- personally I don't agree with much of what you have said, but as long as you have a grasp of the basic concepts of how to safe- everything further is just developing a system that works efficiently for you. Personally, I started out using systems adapted from recreational climbing (because I am a climber!) that were not significantly different from what you suggest, but after (aside from hundreds of days hanging on jumars with a camera) several seasons as a rock/canyon guide & working contracts as a Rope Access Tech. I have adopted various systems from those industries that I believe to work the best for me.... I feel I should add a couple specific safety points though. *I disagree strongly with working on a dynamic line- whatever you say it IS easier to ascend, and much safer because your rope is not being bounced up and down over sharp edges as you ascend. *While I use a clove hitch on a locker (on a single bolt) for a rebelay, the main anchor IMO should be equalised between min. 2 points for redundancy. I suppose this come down to what you are comfortable with, but when you're 8 pitches up, hanging over the void as your climbers come past, you want to be concentrating on photos not wondering about your anchor. I have also seen aparently 'bomber' bolts pull out with out much force. It doesn't take much, just back it up. The thing is, if one bolt does pull and you just have a clove hitch on the other, you will end up shockloading the remaining anchor (OK, it will probably hold, but maybe not. And what about that $2k lens you're just about to put on? bye bye!) It is not any extra work to make it equalised, so why not? By the way, the american death triangle (which i saw suggested somewhere) is NOT equalised. if you dont know what it is, GOOGLE!
The death triangle, like the EDK or the bowline works. It just has limitations. The limitation being it's designed for bomber anchors (or really poor ones which have no chance of holding otherwise).
It equalizes the anchors but it's not equalized. If one pulls the other gets the full load in a bit of a shock.
I'd venture to say it's better then no equalization because it allows the anchor some flexibility and perhaps prevents it from blowing out in the first place. Of course that might just be optimism speaking.
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majid_sabet
Apr 29, 2007, 6:37 PM
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ragnar17 wrote: dbrayack wrote: I use the bowline because i can easily cinch it down so it doesn't slip up a tree. Also, its much much easier to un-tie after loading it HARD. You really shouldn't use a bowline for an anchor knot. When I anchor to trees for solo aiding the first pitch and such I prefer the method shown in my crappy little pic here: [image]www.csgambill.org/climbing/images/better.jpg[/image]
You need some basic help on understanding the concept of building anchors.I mean, you should ask yourself this:
Why do I need to use a perfectly good rope which is anchored via a simple bowline or 8 then add another butterfly knot in to equation and reduce the strength of the anchor by some 30% then make it weaker by linking it to another higher point anchor on that tree via another webbing with is weaker by an additional 30 % reduction in strength in the second anchor.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 29, 2007, 6:38 PM)
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nefarius
May 8, 2007, 5:00 PM
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I'll post more later, as I'm pressed for time right now...
First off... Nice! Thanks for taking the time to put this together and post it up for people. I'm sure it's helpful to many as a place to get a conversation like this going, as well as to see diagrams, etc...
As far as two-bolt belays... You're simply not going to beat the equalizing figure 8 (Bunny ears). It's simple, equalizes, requires no runners and only 2 lockers so therefore saves a ton of weight too. It's a bomber knott. You'll find that this is what most skilled solo'ers use for their setup, as well as what is the most commonly used for short fixing when leading in blocks.
I'd definitely say that using a static rope is best. Yes, you can time the bounce and get a rhythm going on a dynamic line to some degree, but it's still slower and it hard on your line. As someone else posted above, have a look at thinner static lines. You certainly don't have to go with some huge 7/16" or 11mm line...
Someone above posted about bipods.. This info is out there. They're not hard to make and I suppose we all have to learn the hard way... The reason you don't see tons of stuff out there about them is that most guys use them for a very short time when they do. They're heavy, bulky, a pain to setup, finicky to use and in the end, if you're creative, you can get the angle you're looking for some other way. You might also think about trying different angles and different ideas, rather than the same ol' "overhead, away from the wall" view. Regardless, most people who have used them retire them due to what PITA they are...
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boku
May 8, 2007, 5:38 PM
Post #31 of 53
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codhands wrote: guangzhou wrote: I recomend you make yourself a bolsoms chair Not trying to be a dick, but it's boson chair.
Hmmm... I always knew it as a "bosun's chair."
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nefarius
May 8, 2007, 5:43 PM
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Save yourself the time of researching it... A bosun's chair is used for sailing rigs. As climbers, our equivalent would be a belay seat. Depending on your tastes, there are hard and soft belay seats. I find the hard, homemade belay seats to be the most comfortable, but typically take a soft one on shorter shoots, as it is easier to transport, lighter, etc. If on a wall, a hard seat is the way to go as weight is all relative when hauling.
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sgauss
May 8, 2007, 6:27 PM
Post #33 of 53
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codhands wrote: guangzhou wrote: I recomend you make yourself a bolsoms chair Not trying to be a dick, but it's boson chair.
Oh, man. Same disclaimer, but it is "bosuns" chair. A boson is a sub-atomic particle. Now someone should feel free to come along and correct me!
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bigfatrock
May 8, 2007, 7:05 PM
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I would like to see how you can get out from the rock. The aren't many routs adjacent to anything in Texas. It's mostly just walls with routes lined up. You can't get a great perspective unless you are able to be out from the rock more. I have seen one before that involved PVC pipe and webbing hooked into two bolts, but even that isn't always possible and carrying PVC pipe to the crag would be a pain. Any suggestions?
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dbrayack
May 8, 2007, 7:12 PM
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Man, I never have that problem...I'm usually more worried about getting "IN" Hanging in Space really sucks.
One suggestion though: Tie the bottom of your haul line Loosly (so you can still ascend it) to a tree or other fixed point a good bit back. Once you get your height, you can pull on the lower rope, moving your backwards (either pull and tie or use an ascender.)
Does this make sense? I've only done this a few times.
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bandycoot
May 8, 2007, 7:18 PM
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For the grigri-ascender combo I recommend this:
Take the tail of the rope coming out of the grigri and run it through a carabiner at the bottom of the ascender. Now as you step up, you pull down on the tail and you've created a quick efficient ~2:1 pulley system with almost no effort and only a single carabiner.
Josh
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dbrayack
May 8, 2007, 7:21 PM
Post #37 of 53
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I've tried that, but don't like it...its not as fast, and I cannot "bounce" my way up...
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j_ung
May 8, 2007, 7:32 PM
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Not sure how I feel about the bouncy thing. I usually try to be as smooth as possible and limit my bounce to limit rope-edge rubbing.
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dbrayack
May 8, 2007, 7:43 PM
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That's why I use a crappy "haul" rope, such as the Petzl one you just gave me :). ALso, I tend to pad the edge if needed (though I'm usually going off a two bolt anchor anyways.)
And I have converted to the atomic figure 8 (two loops)
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nefarius
May 8, 2007, 7:47 PM
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For me it really depends. If you're shooting a lot of sport stuff, on overhanging rock where the line runs freee from the rock, anchor to anchor, then bouncing shouldn't be an issue... However, when you're on a wall that is vertical or less, ascending a fixed line, bouncing would scare the hell out of me. I've seen lines on El Cap get sawed a good portion of the way through over night, just from wind blowing them back and forth on a crystal. Scary shit.
I suppose this is why I've just learned to jug as smoothly and efficiently as possible. This kinda rules out the grigri, as a second ascender, for me too. Not to mention it's hugely inefficient. I *do* use a grigri for cleaning frequently, but only as a backup when ascending fixed lines, where I pull the slack through every thirty feet or so.
Of course, everyone is comfortable with different things and has their own systems. That's the great thing about the forums is we can all share and learn from each other...
Cheers!
(This post was edited by nefarius on May 8, 2007, 7:48 PM)
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dynosore
May 8, 2007, 7:56 PM
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before writing anchoring articles I'd learn the difference between a "bite" and a "bight" LOL
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dbrayack
May 10, 2007, 11:59 AM
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Yah, except bite fits in my box and bight didnt
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dynosore
May 10, 2007, 12:33 PM
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uh change the size of the box? did bight not fit in the article either cuz you spelled it wrong there too 
that's a really strange way to anchor a fixed rope to 2 bolts, but whatever floats yer boat
my guess is you really don't know the difference, but do now. fair enough.
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dbrayack
May 10, 2007, 12:35 PM
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dynosore wrote: uh change the size of the box? did bight not fit in the article either cuz you spelled it wrong there too that's a really strange way to anchor a fixed rope to 2 bolts, but whatever floats yer boat my guess is you really don't know the difference, but do now. fair enough.
Yah, I totally spelled it wrong!
I'm going to revise it when I get a chance. I've gone to the atomic figure 8, as J_ung calls it, they two loop eight on a bite.
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dbrayack
May 10, 2007, 1:28 PM
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Right on man; I'm glad for the construtive criticism, its how you learn!
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Paul_Y
May 10, 2007, 1:50 PM
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dbrayack, dynosore,
Thanks for the thread and the link to the animated knot site!
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dbrayack
May 10, 2007, 1:55 PM
Post #48 of 53
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That knot site is GREAT!
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philbox
Moderator
May 15, 2007, 1:00 AM
Post #49 of 53
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My typical photo shoot setup is two rap ropes and one trolley line. I have the one main rap rope. The second rap rope is so that I can reposition easily off to one side simply by transferring weight to the other rope by either ascending it or lowering myself onto it. Having a secondary rap rope increases safety many fold. It also steadies me for that all important shot. I hate twirling about on the end of my rap rope like a Christmas decoration.
The trolley line is there for when I need to haul myself away from the wall. I now have a 250 metre 5mm perlon cord, very low stretch which I typically double for ease of retrieval and for increased strength and less stretch. I place a pulley on the trolley line and have a rope attached to the trolley line. I then either set up a gri gri on a single line pull if I am going out a short distance or a more elaborate haul system if I need to gain more distance.
Being able get some distance out from the wall gives you the ability to gain a lot more persective and to choose from a lot more viewing angles. In combination with this is the ability to shift sideways via the secondary rap rope.
Yep a lot of rigging but then I am paranoid about my safety. I can also gain a lot more shots from many different angles and the end result is that I can then hone my skills in choosing which angle I prefer. It seperates my shots from the usual shots that are taken close to the wall.
Take this shot for example.
I was some 20 metres out from the wall on this occasion. That was only accomplished because of the overhanging nature of the wall. I want to get much further out from the wall so I can gain some perspective given by the surrounding countryside. Mind you I am never satisfied by any of my pics and am constantly striving for better pics and better angles.
Mind you, don't get me wrong there are some fantastic pics taken from over the climbers shoulder and I have taken exactly this type of pic. That type of pic though rarely does justice to the medium that we climb on. I want to explore giving the viewer much more of what we actually go to climb. I want to see the great expanses of rock and see the various geologic formations we move across. This can only be accomplished by way of some quite elaborate setups.
I do also like exploring the faces of climbers mid crux when their faces are all screwed up and they are exhibiting the torture that their minds are going through. But of course that is another dissertation.
I like that we climbing photographers can explore the possibilities and that we do not hold back our secrets from one another. By doing so we simply popularise our chosen pasttime and may in some small way bring the vast publics imagination to bear on policy makers.
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Paul_Y
May 15, 2007, 2:44 PM
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Nice shot philbox. Thanks for taking the time to write up the detailed description of your anchoring system. I like your use of that thin non-strech tolley line.
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