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tradmanclimbs
Apr 10, 2007, 12:01 AM
Post #26 of 74
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Hey, I had a 19 year streach without breaking a pick. Only broke one last year. I know if you baby them they most likly won't break but you shouldn't have to baby them. It's ice climbing for christs sake....
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chossmonkey
Apr 10, 2007, 12:59 AM
Post #27 of 74
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Must be rough being a hamfist.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 10, 2007, 11:29 AM
Post #28 of 74
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I looked at my climbing journal last night and the first pick broke in 05. no picks broke last season 06. three broke in 07. 05 and 07 were both extreemly cold in the NE. 06 was quite warm. maby that has something to do with it?? Friend of mine put a BD pick in a vise, froze it with some chemical shit, hit it with a hammer and it snapped right off. He then did the same thing with a CM pick and he had to bend the CM pick back and forth 3 times to get it to break... Just look at the photos, the break is so uniform that you can't help but to conclude that there is a material or design issue at play.
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chossmonkey
Apr 10, 2007, 12:47 PM
Post #29 of 74
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Friend of mine put a BD pick in a vise, froze it with some chemical shit, hit it with a hammer and it snapped right off. He then did the same thing with a CM pick and he had to bend the CM pick back and forth 3 times to get it to break... Just look at the photos, the break is so uniform that you can't help but to conclude that there is a material or design issue at play.
Thats odd. Here is what a friend who works for BD had to say when I bent a pick drytooling and thought it might have been some sort of quality issue as it bent rather than breaking.
In reply to: As for bending or breaking picks, you can bend or break ANY pick depending on what you do with it. I think it's a matter of learning what you can and can't do with them and the only way to do that is to climb a lot and break picks... I don't think any manufactures pick steel is significantly better than any others. There are differences, like BD picks will bend before they break and dull a little quicker than Petzl or Grivel picks.
Theirs however will snap quicker than ours and are more rigid (a + or - depending on what you are doing with them). I personally have not broken a BD pick in 12 years and I climb a ton and do some crazy shit with them. As I said before, you will learn what you can and can't do as you go.
Perhaps you should stop your spewing until you have contacted BD?
2084 East 3900 South
Salt Lake City, UT 84124
p: 801.278.5552
f: 801.278.5544
bdmo@bdel.com
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brent_e
Apr 10, 2007, 1:47 PM
Post #30 of 74
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Thanks for the Vote of confidence Tom.. I wish i could lead everything at the lake but that day is a long way off  I do get my fair share of spankings up there there though here is another photo that really shows how close the breaks are.
if you look at the picture you posted with this text you can see 2 colours on the picks. near the teeth a darker colour, and up top a dull colour. to me, this appears to be from a crack in the pick vertically(dark colour) then the picks bending laterally and breaking(dull colour). it appears that they are all breaking where the stress is high where the pick is thin where one tooth meets the other. what you could try is taking a 1/8" round file and round out that area a little more. This may do nothing as taking more material away will make it weaker.
do you remember when the picks broke? when you were placing? when you were pulling on them? cleaning? Do you check them every climb to see if there is a fracture in that area?
it would be cool to be able to do some tests on these.
good luck.
Brent
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 10, 2007, 2:11 PM
Post #31 of 74
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Not spewing at all?? just posting the facts. Yes I have sent these photos to BD No response yet?? I have stood up for the viper system in past forrum discussi. The photos are not doctored. the picks do break. I have not had this issue with Grivel, Simiond Omega Pacific or Chiounard picks that I have put many miles on.
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Apr 10, 2007, 2:42 PM)
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bestbefore
Apr 10, 2007, 2:48 PM
Post #32 of 74
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Hey Tradman,
If you are in the North East, why not give Jim Shimberg a call. He represents (in some capacity) Black Diamond, and certainly has many years of experience with their gear. I met him at the Festglace this past February, and he was a real pleasure to be with. Just a thought.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 10, 2007, 5:31 PM
Post #33 of 74
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Black diamond responded politely that it is user error.. user error to the 100th of an inch
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g_i_g_i
Apr 10, 2007, 6:25 PM
Post #34 of 74
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In reply to: Black diamond responded politely that it is user error.. user error to the 100th of an inch
I guess you should take this discussion as an occasion to learn something. You seem to be an experienced ice climber, but obviously you lack some basic knowledge of the mechanics of ice picks. Your four picks broke at exactly the same spot because that is their weakest point when torqued. They were planted in the ice more or less at the same depth, but not necessarily the exact same, just enough to have the previous tooth's weak spot blocked in the ice, and then flexed+torqued to failure.
Torsion plus flexion has pretty different effects than flexion alone to your pick, so your friend's experiment does not mean much. A much better experiment would require you to put the pick in the vice while still mounted in the ice tool, and then pull the handle of the ice tool to torque the pick, and see what happens. I bet that given a realistic "depth" of insertion in the vice, the laser pick would break in the same spot every time, and any other pick would break in some very similar way.
So BD told you it's user "error", maybe the laser pick is just not good for you. If you think that your technique does not need refinement, fine. Especially fine for BD, who will keep on selling you new picks.
If you think you might want to change ice tools, I'd suggest this: borrow the tool you're interested in and do the experiment that I suggested. You'd have to sacrifice a couple of picks, but it would be worth it. The best way to do it would be to actually measure the torque that the pick can withstand before breaking when flexed+torqued in the vice, and see which one can withstand the most abuse, but this would be a little complicated for you to do, so you could just pull the handles yourself and get a feeling of how much you can dare while leading.
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brent_e
Apr 10, 2007, 6:33 PM
Post #35 of 74
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you could try a forged pick which could be stronger than the BD picks, which are laser cut, AFAIK (could be wrong on that but i think they are laser cut). Petzl and Grivel both have forged picks.
Brent
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 10, 2007, 6:44 PM
Post #36 of 74
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Of course my teqnique can improve. Most of us have room for improvment.. How much can you change when you are in the middle of a life and death struggle with a massive icicle that wants to spit you off?? Its really easy to armchair pick on me when you have never even see me climb but when the wind is blowing 50mph its a total white out, minus 20 degrees celcius you are 5 meters out from your last screw and your tool won't stick so you take a closer look at it and half the fckin pick is gone!!! I'm gonna try a diferent pick all right but chances are pretty good that it won't be made by black diamond....... user error??? 5th notch, the other guys pick broke same place... stupid customers keep breaking our product at the 5th notch, learn how to climb you morons...... yeh go ahead, buy that pansy a$$ed french tool, see if I care you tratior...... I fart in your genneral direction, come back here, i'le bite your ankles, it's jest a flesh wound, I've had worse.............
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brent_e
Apr 10, 2007, 7:02 PM
Post #37 of 74
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
to be fair grivel is an italian company.....
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 10, 2007, 7:07 PM
Post #38 of 74
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I'm thinking quarks
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akicebum
Apr 10, 2007, 7:10 PM
Post #39 of 74
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This forum is totally fucked. I have pm'd tradman on this subject. Plain and simple picks bend, picks break. The BD Laser picks break more often than any other mainstream picks. It is a fact, plain and simple. If it is a design flaw in the recurve of the pick or the forge itself it needs to be corrected.
You want to pull a pick strait out of the ice, if you have to force it out hit the back of the head with the palm of your hand. Anyone that climbs hard ice knows sometimes that just isn't possible and you wiggle the shit out of your pick to get it out. Ice climbing is fickle at best. Anyone who had Black Diamond tools last season knows how hard it was to find laser picks by midseason, if this was due to breakage or to BD just not meeting orders who knows. BD customer service has been the worst I have ever dealt with. The tools do have a fantastic head weight and a great swing, in fact the only drawback is the pick.
Tradman seems to be a very proficient ice climber with a great deal of experience with several generations of ice tools and picks. He is just bringing to light his own issues with the Laser pick. BD should know full well the problem with their picks and I am sure they are addrssing the issue. 3mm picks place much better than the old 4mm picks, but they are going to break more often.
Both Will Gadd and Sean Issac suggest pick torquing in cracks when mixed climbing, this technique is used by some of the strongest climbers in this discipline and it breaks picks. I have bent the shit out of my Grivel Mixte picks, but have yet to break one, though they do break.
The problem is how often the Laser pick fails, plain and simple. It adds an unacceptable degree of danger to a climb. I do hope BD addresses this soon as they make such wonderful shafts.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 10, 2007, 7:17 PM
Post #40 of 74
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Laser picks were out of stock many places this season as well.. maby BD just likes to sell lots of extra picks?? Piss poor polocy if it gets me killed!!! imagin haveing a pick break on the first pitch of Possitive Thinking???? Yikes!!!
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Apr 10, 2007, 7:20 PM)
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tomcat
Apr 10, 2007, 7:20 PM
Post #41 of 74
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Trad,I guess you should take this as an opportunity to learn something,you SEEM to be an experienced ice climber.....hahahahahaha
This place is ghay.Your flexion is not right,and that's knott all.Now try this,put your picks in a vice,now without torqueing them at all,just snap one off there around the fifth tooth.There see...it's your technique!
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g_i_g_i
Apr 10, 2007, 7:25 PM
Post #42 of 74
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In reply to: Its really easy to armchair pick on me
You basically started out assuming that the laser pick was poorly designed, either the material, or the shape should be improved.
You contacted BD, and they told you that the picks don't look defective, and they broke because of the way you used them.
Apparently you know other people who had your same problem(and now you should also know why they all broke in the same spot). But you also got people here who wrote that they never, or seldom, broke a BD pick, so I guess the laser pick is good enough for them.
Obviously the same pick is not good for you, because it cannot withstand the amount of torqueing associated with your climbing technique.
And for me that's all there is to this story.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 10, 2007, 7:39 PM
Post #43 of 74
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GIGI that was not aimed at you, several folks have pointed out that i am ham fisted hack I am well aware that the picks work fine for many climbers. I am also aware that a significant number of climbers have also had a simeler experience to mine. As a small buisness owner I find it impossible to imagin fieilding a number of complaints on the same issue without takeing a serious look at that issue. You hear it once and blame it on the customer fine. You hear it a dozen times and blame it on the customer you are being a fool....
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gargrantuan
Apr 10, 2007, 11:05 PM
Post #44 of 74
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for what it is worth....i climb on quarks and almost everyone else i know climbs on bd. i had to replace the picks on my quarks after a full year of use (mixed, alpine, water ice) because they needed lots of filing. everytime i swung and hit rock they lost quite a bit of steel. i do a great deal of torquing in limestone cracks and have never worried about snapping them, i am also a lightweight so that has something to do with it too.
my friends have all broke laser picks in the previous two seasons and all in 'roughly' the same area as tradman's. they range from rank amateurs to world class alpinists so i have a good sample population. i have had my suspicions as to a defect, but no real evidence. i like the durability of the bd picks for longer objectives where filing is/would be a pain, but the quarks on pure WI are SO nice.
my two cents.
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drzaous
Apr 10, 2007, 11:13 PM
Post #45 of 74
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Registered: Jan 27, 2005
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I could be mistaken, but if you know that your hard on your picks (like your above posts about bashing tools, and being less than elegant on lead suggests), why not just get a T-rated (Titan) pick. The Laser's are B-rated, and are weaker, so they can penetrate ICE better. They arne't meant to take a hammering. Just get the T-rated cousin and get some filing done on it. I absolutely hate grivel cascade picks, because they feel like I'm climbing with pencils, so I got the mixte picks, did some file work on them, and they climb just as good as the thinner version, but way stronger.
Blaming a B-rated performance pick for breaking is kinda counter-productive.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 10, 2007, 11:20 PM
Post #46 of 74
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So my email to BD got bounced higher up the food chain. They do know that the picks break. it is a trade off performance vs durrability and they are constantly reaserching new materials for picks.. I also scored a bunch of free shwag without asking for it as I mentined several times the Titan picks are too clumsy for me. I want it all! performance and durrability
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drzaous
Apr 10, 2007, 11:25 PM
Post #47 of 74
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<- Hence making the title of this thread complete horseshit.
If you want it all, don't make it sound like you've somehow uncoverred some possible safety issue.
If you really want performance and durability start whoring yourself out to get some aermet picks that BD made awhile back. They are fairly rare to nonexistent. do a search for them on the net and you will see why.
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drzaous
Apr 11, 2007, 7:07 AM
Post #49 of 74
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I agree totally with above poster totally. This thread gives people the idea that laser picks are defective. In reality, the OP (he even admits this), is just pissed because he needs to use a T-rated pick, but doesn't want to lose the performanceof a B-rated one. Cry me a river man. Also, the fact that the bitching resulted in free stuff...well basically, if your ever wondering why Ice Tools cost so much...there's your reason, BD can't just give stuff away without it costing the consumer something. It's how business works.
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chossmonkey
Apr 11, 2007, 11:34 AM
Post #50 of 74
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tradmanclimbs wrote: but when the wind is blowing 50mph its a total white out, minus 20 degrees celcius you are 5 meters out from your last screw and your tool won't stick so you take a closer look at it and half the fckin pick is gone!!!
I guess since that would be the last place I would want a pick to break and I had broken one (or multiple!!!!) doing the same thing before I'd be a little more careful.
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