|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 27, 2007, 3:55 PM
Post #26 of 76
(2262 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Mock leading is totaly gay and a complete waste of everyones time method #1. follow, be a rope slave and then start leading. You would be well advised to lead some C1 pitches with this method. Method#2 read a few books. practice placeing gear and bounceing on it at ground level then aid a C1 crack and start leading. method #3 buy your skills by takeing a bunch of expensive classes. You are still gonna want to aid that C1 crack though. Aerili, If the guy went ahead and aided that 10b with no problems and didn't go splat then he did the right thing and probobly learned a lot more than he ever would have leading a 5.5 so quit whineing about it and go hold the guys rope. You might learn something
|
|
|
|
|
drjghl
Apr 30, 2007, 9:03 PM
Post #28 of 76
(2211 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 9, 2002
Posts: 135
|
Lots being said on this thread. I agree with the comments from rocknice2. Leading trad is a complicated endeavor and many skills need and should be developed together at "safe" grades. I wouldn't recommend aid climbing as a standard practice to beginners learning how to lead trad. You can place gear on the ground and weight pieces to gain an appreciation of sound placements. As for following, I think this is very useful. Climbing is an art and there is a lot to learn from seeing how others protect a route. Climb safe all.
|
|
|
|
|
aerili
Apr 30, 2007, 9:29 PM
Post #29 of 76
(2203 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 13, 2006
Posts: 1166
|
The feedback was interesting and informative, esp. coming from so many different people. (I think a lot of aiders might have replied, lol.) But for those of you who apparently think I'm someone who 1) needs my hand to be held all the time 2) is waiting around for instruction all day 3) is whining (wtf?) 4) never reads books or tries to think for myself (I actually do own and have read John Long's How to Rock Climb book, as well as having read many sections out of anchors and knot books) 5) thinks that my post was about validating myself as "right" in this matter....Well, the answer is "none of the above." Funny how people read so much into so little, but I know that it's just par for the course on here.  
Considering my friend has virtually no crack skills or experience to speak of (nor has he even historically done a lot of leading to my knowledge), I just thought it strange that he didn't think seconding some trad for a time or two would get him used to and somewhat more skilled in the technique in general, see some actual gear placements (rather than just TR, which was his primary and limited previous crack experience, I believe) ...These things seemed helpful to me when (non-aid) leading in general. Anyway, I didn't offer him up any advice one way or the other on his placement-learning methods, but as always, I appreciate the various and sundry assumptions about my own habits, thoughts, behavior, and actions--there's no escaping the eventual belittlement or assumed inferior aspects of one's character around this site, so thanks for letting me take my turn again, heheh!
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Apr 30, 2007, 9:36 PM
Post #30 of 76
(2199 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
well, the wording of your original post was very leading. I was under the distinct impression that yo thought he was doing something 'wrong.' whatever that means.
|
|
|
|
|
cintune
Apr 30, 2007, 9:51 PM
Post #31 of 76
(2192 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1293
|
No offense intended, really. As for him having "virtually no crack skills" before, though, I bet he might have a few more now.  Concern for friends is a noble trait and nothing to feel wrong about, though. You got off easy compared to Majid.
|
|
|
|
|
krosbakken
Apr 30, 2007, 10:08 PM
Post #32 of 76
(2180 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2006
Posts: 581
|
My brother and I mock lead, but only at a gym. He practices placing and then I just belay him on a TR. It works pretty good. But I wouldn't ever waste my time mock leading outside.
|
|
|
|
|
drector
Apr 30, 2007, 10:24 PM
Post #33 of 76
(2172 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 1037
|
If you practice a whole lot at making bad gear placements, you will become an expert at quickly and easily making bad gear placements.
That could certainly happen but if you are past consistently making bad placements, the practice helps you pick the right piece of gear and make the placements quicker, both of which are of great benefit.
Dave
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 30, 2007, 10:46 PM
Post #34 of 76
(2162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
I like the aiding method of learning to place gear, but for the first time, I might recommend a TR belay, instead of an actual lead. I also like mock leading and think the two together, along with copious following, have a better chance to create an old and happy traddy than any single method on its own.
|
|
|
|
|
kman
Apr 30, 2007, 11:01 PM
Post #35 of 76
(2149 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
krosbakken wrote: My brother and I mock lead, but only at a gym. He practices placing and then I just belay him on a TR. It works pretty good. But I wouldn't ever waste my time mock leading outside.
What....the....fuck!!!!! Mock leading gear in a gym...yet doing it outside would be a waste of time......interesting.
Keeping that one in quotes.
|
|
|
|
|
coastal_climber
Apr 30, 2007, 11:25 PM
Post #36 of 76
(2135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 17, 2006
Posts: 2542
|
kman wrote: krosbakken wrote: My brother and I mock lead, but only at a gym. He practices placing and then I just belay him on a TR. It works pretty good. But I wouldn't ever waste my time mock leading outside. What....the....fuck!!!!! Mock leading gear in a gym...yet doing it outside would be a waste of time......interesting. Keeping that one in quotes.
I'll second the wtf, how does leading indoors compare to anything outside?
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Apr 30, 2007, 11:32 PM
Post #37 of 76
(2129 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
coastal_climber wrote: kman wrote: krosbakken wrote: My brother and I mock lead, but only at a gym. He practices placing and then I just belay him on a TR. It works pretty good. But I wouldn't ever waste my time mock leading outside. What....the....fuck!!!!! Mock leading gear in a gym...yet doing it outside would be a waste of time......interesting. Keeping that one in quotes. I'll second the wtf, how does leading indoors compare to anything outside?
Actually you'd be surprised how similar they can be! In both cases, the climber is leading instead of toproping! In both cases, the climber must clip into some manner of lead pro to stay safe!
Hope that helps, coastal climber!!
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
May 1, 2007, 12:09 AM
Post #38 of 76
(2121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
J ung, I usualy feel that 99% of what you post is dead on but i am gonna have to passs on the mock leading recomendation. I suppose it's fine if you are paying a guide to let you do it but god forbid you have to witness such an act. it is even more coma induceing than watching tennis on TV. The few times that i have witnessed mock leading it filled me with the urge to either deficate or vomit. I was so confused as to which would be more appropriat that I had to go solo something. My advice is to borrow or steal a crashpad, take all your trinkets to the crag and place pieces close to the ground. Clip into said pieces with a spectra runner and bounce the piss out of them. should be able to generate a good bit of energy with that spectra runner. Build anchors and bounce test them. you should have your book right there for refrence. Follow as many leads as you can but for christs sake if you can't find a leader after work head out there and practice on your own. Do a serious boulder session while your at it to help build those guns. When you do get your paws on a real live partner don't piss the afternoon away wankin arround on a freakin top rope boreing the poor guy/gal stiff. Lead something easy. If you do this a few times then up the ante and go after something harder. As long as your climb is G rated you should go for it. The fastest teacher will be thrashing up climbs that totaly spank you. Your gear will improve more on a single hangdogging, gear grabbing thash up a steep well protected 9 or ten than it wil on two dozen 5.6 anklebreakers. The bottom line is practice, practice, practice. If you are serious about becomeing a real climber you need to be out there 4 to 6 days a week after work bouldering, working on gear placements, building anchors, jugging/prusicing fixed ropes, bouldering some more, highballing, soloing easy stuff and bugging the crap out of everyone with your enthusiasim. Now when you get that partner you go lead something. Hopefully you will find a mentor and get dragged up a bunch of climbs and learn a bunch of cool stuff but that ain't gonna happen sitting on your couch watchin stonemasters and smokeing your brains out.
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on May 1, 2007, 12:14 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
May 1, 2007, 12:29 AM
Post #39 of 76
(2112 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
tradmanclimbs wrote: J ung, I usualy feel that 99% of what you post is dead on but i am gonna have to passs on the mock leading recomendation. I suppose it's fine if you are paying a guide to let you do it but god forbid you have to witness such an act. it is even more coma induceing than watching tennis on TV. The few times that i have witnessed mock leading it filled me with the urge to either deficate or vomit. I was so confused as to which would be more appropriat that I had to go solo something.
Damn, dood, even I don't agree with 99% of what I post.
But your point is a good one. I've seen my share of mock-lead cluster fucks, too. Some of them might have been scarier than an actual lead, and almost all of them take too f-ing long. Certainly, I think it's better for some aspects of leading than others. Gear placement not so much, but you can teach rope-leg dynamics and clipping technique way better on on belay than off. I'm saying that, if I were to take a complete n00b all the way through tradding, (after the belay basics) it would include ground school, following, mock leading and some sort of aiding, most likely French free (on TR). Not necessarily in that order.
|
|
|
|
|
rocknice2
May 1, 2007, 12:51 AM
Post #40 of 76
(2103 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1221
|
tradmanclimbs I agree with you that mock leads are a waste. Your either ready or not. I find that the mock leader will just skip a placement or not give it their all and just move on. If however on the sharp end it's much harder to move on if the placement is suspect by the leader.
It makes my asshole pucker that you'd recommend a new leader to get spanked on some crack trying to figure out how, when and where to place their pro. Your post was solid up to there.
New leaders:
Learn the fundimentals of gear placements on safe terrain. When your ready get milage and lots of it . Do all the easy climbs now 'cause you'll probably won't climb them later. They'll be too easy for you. There's no need to funk your brain before you even start. There plenty of adventure out there take your time.
|
|
|
|
|
colemanizzle
May 1, 2007, 1:18 AM
Post #41 of 76
(2095 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2005
Posts: 36
|
I can't speak for anyone else, but I learned to place gear by just going for it and hoping that I didn't fall. On retrospect that wasn't the best idea.
|
|
|
|
|
kman
May 1, 2007, 1:18 AM
Post #42 of 76
(2095 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
caughtinside wrote: coastal_climber wrote: kman wrote: krosbakken wrote: My brother and I mock lead, but only at a gym. He practices placing and then I just belay him on a TR. It works pretty good. But I wouldn't ever waste my time mock leading outside. What....the....fuck!!!!! Mock leading gear in a gym...yet doing it outside would be a waste of time......interesting. Keeping that one in quotes. I'll second the wtf, how does leading indoors compare to anything outside? Actually you'd be surprised how similar they can be! In both cases, the climber is leading instead of toproping! In both cases, the climber must clip into some manner of lead pro to stay safe! Hope that helps, coastal climber!!
He was MOCK leading on gear in the gym....Perhaps Coastal forgot to put the mock part in. And no, that does not compare to outside.
Gym leading might as well be top roping anyway...the bolts are all so bloody close.
|
|
|
|
|
scotchie
May 1, 2007, 1:21 AM
Post #43 of 76
(2094 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 31, 2004
Posts: 261
|
I would recommend a variety of techniques as they each have their ups and downs.
Ground-school: An absolute must, and must be first. New leaders need to be taught about rock quality, zipper effect, etc. There is so much more than just how to place the gear.
Placing gear on the ground with inspection: Great practice if the new leader has access to an experienced leader with the patience and inclination to help.
Aid Climbing (C1): This is a great way to jump-start the experience of placing and evaluating pro. There is something about knowing that your gear will HAVE to hold you (not just if you fall) that puts the fear of God in you and makes you do it right. At the same time, it's a great way to give the new leader confidence in his placements. But there is a catch - not all bodyweight placements will hold a fall, so relying on this as the sole method of instruction (with no checking of placements by an experienced leader) could result in overconfidence in poor placements.
"Easy" Leads - The best first lead is one with easy placements, and that is within the leader's climbing ability. Look for one that eats pro and where placements can be made from a good stance. The new leader will take much more time finding the right size piece than an experienced leader. A first lead isn't the time to be fumbling with cam sizes while clinging to a sketchy hold. My first trad lead was on a 5.9 (top of my ability), and I fell on gear. Yet it felt perfectly safe, because it took good pro and the stances for placing gear were all very secure. If you're not sure about ease of protection, picking a climb that is below the leader's ability would leave a margin for error. The initial leads need to be seconded and inspected by a mentor. The obvious downside is that you have to be already reasonably confident in the new leader's protection skils beforehand.
Cleaning placements: This won't teach the new leader how to avoid bad placements. But it will teach him the tricks-of-the-trade and provide much useful information. This can be practiced at practically any skill level, because there is always someone who knows more.
Reading books: I don't recommend this as an alternative to "hands on" or as the only means of instruction. But I think it is can be useful to learn new tricks and techniques. The new leader's mentor will only know or prefer-to-use a subset of all techniques possible.
|
|
|
|
|
tanner
May 1, 2007, 2:19 AM
Post #45 of 76
(2072 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2002
Posts: 491
|
Mock leading is kinda "Gay".
Trad climbing is dangerous, know this and then carfully manage that risk. Leading on gear is not a natural progression from gym or sport climbing it is in fact a diffrent sport. If you need a TR backup to feel safe leading a route then you need more ground school or extra sport/ TR practice to tune you climbing skills first.
A good way to learn
step 1-First lead bolts
step 2-Ground school with experianced leader
step 3- C1 something ( you can often do this 3' off the ground solo)
step 4- advanced ground school
Step 5- Lead something for real.
As for me I learned by reading freedom of the hills, buying a rack of stoppers and leading the first 5.6 I could find.
|
|
|
|
|
krosbakken
May 1, 2007, 3:08 AM
Post #47 of 76
(2058 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2006
Posts: 581
|
coastal_climber wrote: kman wrote: krosbakken wrote: My brother and I mock lead, but only at a gym. He practices placing and then I just belay him on a TR. It works pretty good. But I wouldn't ever waste my time mock leading outside. What....the....fuck!!!!! Mock leading gear in a gym...yet doing it outside would be a waste of time......interesting. Keeping that one in quotes. I'll second the wtf, how does leading indoors compare to anything outside?
Well I hate indoor climbing. But its good to practice gear placements. Im not comparing it to outdoors but its just to practice the placements.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
May 1, 2007, 3:16 AM
Post #48 of 76
(2052 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
The guys who started me climbing were decent ice climbers but when summer came arround they were mostly top ropers. The only way i could break out of that was to just go and do it. by hanging at the crag every day and thrashing my way up 5.6 and 5.7, bouldering a bunch, soloing easier stuff and generaly being a pest I eventualy hooked up with a real climber who had me leading 5.9 @ the gunks the next week. Point is that by the time i got through my first summer on the rock I had 100+ days in of bouldering, soloing and gear wankin. So yes if you follow my simple instructions you will be ready for that 5.9 crack a few months into it. Of course that 5.9 is probobly going to climb a lot more like 5.7 C1 than 5.9 pretty soon you will be crankin by all those naysayers that said you couldn't do it without a real guide. Probobly end up soloing their projects half way through your second season
|
|
|
|
|
rocknice2
May 1, 2007, 3:18 AM
Post #49 of 76
(2050 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1221
|
krosbakken wrote: coastal_climber wrote: kman wrote: krosbakken wrote: My brother and I mock lead, but only at a gym. He practices placing and then I just belay him on a TR. It works pretty good. But I wouldn't ever waste my time mock leading outside. What....the....fuck!!!!! Mock leading gear in a gym...yet doing it outside would be a waste of time......interesting. Keeping that one in quotes. I'll second the wtf, how does leading indoors compare to anything outside? Well I hate indoor climbing. But its good to practice gear placements. Im not comparing it to outdoors but its just to practice the placements.
Hook up with someone that knows what their doing. It's obvious you and your brother don't.... Seriously
|
|
|
|
|
krosbakken
May 1, 2007, 3:22 AM
Post #50 of 76
(2044 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2006
Posts: 581
|
rocknice2 wrote: krosbakken wrote: coastal_climber wrote: kman wrote: krosbakken wrote: My brother and I mock lead, but only at a gym. He practices placing and then I just belay him on a TR. It works pretty good. But I wouldn't ever waste my time mock leading outside. What....the....fuck!!!!! Mock leading gear in a gym...yet doing it outside would be a waste of time......interesting. Keeping that one in quotes. I'll second the wtf, how does leading indoors compare to anything outside? Well I hate indoor climbing. But its good to practice gear placements. Im not comparing it to outdoors but its just to practice the placements. Hook up with someone that knows what their doing. It's obvious you and your brother don't.... Seriously
No your wrong we do know what we are doing. Seriously.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
