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dingus


May 2, 2007, 10:32 AM
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Are Noobs Killing Our Sport?
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Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT


moose_droppings


May 2, 2007, 10:50 AM
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dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

Are you self inducted into this status, or is it a vote by dirtbaggers?
Smile

Did we kill the sport when we were n00bs? I think it will live on regardless of the influx of gymbies and noobs.


wanderlustmd


May 2, 2007, 10:51 AM
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I don't know, noobs and marketing aren't necessarily related; I know enough people who have no interest in climbing regardless of how cool it looks on TV.

We were all new once......Unimpressed


caughtinside


May 2, 2007, 10:51 AM
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moose_droppings wrote:
dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

Are you self inducted into this status, or is it a vote by dirtbaggers?
Smile

Did we kill the sport when we were n00bs? I think it will live on regardless of the influx of gymbies and noobs.

You didn't get jumped into the gang by running the Hex Gauntlet?

n00b.


jgloporto


May 2, 2007, 10:51 AM
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dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

I saw that commercial....

I don't think they are killing the sport. They are great for the sport. Lot's of cheap barely used gear on e-bay is great. Lot's of hot adventure seeking co-eds flooding the place who are impressed by words like "clove hitch" and "ice tool" is great. Reading posts about shoes, fat climber/skinny belayer situations and how n00bs are killing the sport is great.

What's not great about this.


(p.s. I made up the part about the hot co-eds but the first time I see a hot co-ed harnessed up somewhere, I am definitely going to work "clove hitch" and "ice tool" into the coversation somehow.)


wanderlustmd


May 2, 2007, 10:54 AM
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jgloporto wrote:

(p.s. I made up the part about the hot co-eds but the first time I see a hot co-ed harnessed up somewhere, I am definitely going to work "clove hitch" and "ice tool" into the coversation somehow.)

Be sure to use "equalette", "gaston" and "kilonewton" as wellLaugh


jgloporto


May 2, 2007, 10:59 AM
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wanderlustmd wrote:
jgloporto wrote:

(p.s. I made up the part about the hot co-eds but the first time I see a hot co-ed harnessed up somewhere, I am definitely going to work "clove hitch" and "ice tool" into the coversation somehow.)

Be sure to use "equalette", "gaston" and "kilonewton" as wellLaugh

Yeah, those are good ones too. Maybe I should also work in "whipper", "zipper" and "microscender." What do you think about "prussik-minding pulley"?


dingus


May 2, 2007, 11:02 AM
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I'd like to hear from some noobs on this one. What's your perspective on this Gym? You killing our sport? Are you Disnefying climbing into an amusement park ride?

DMT


hugin


May 2, 2007, 11:03 AM
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Not death by noob. Everyone's a noob at some point, and if there weren't noobs, climbing would die out with all the old climbers.

I would call it evisceration by popularity. There are a lot of people who try it as a novelty, to be cool, without appreciating the risks or understanding the culture. Because of that, it also gains more social and political visibility in the mainstream ... it's no longer a fringe activity or necessarily as "extreme" a sport in the public eye anymore. That's good and bad in ways ... but I would say that the primary result is the dilution of climbing culture.

Even 15 years ago, when I first started climbing, you needed to meet people and learn from experienced climbers to really get to know the crags, the process, and the ethic ... and the ethics were very strong within the community. But, at that time, I was warned of the growing number of "sport" climbers (as opposed to what those guys were calling "nature" climbers) who didn't appreciate preservation of land, the access issues, or the integrity of the stone. I came back into the fold a couple of years ago, and found that most of their warnings were very well-placed, but that the result of that growth was that the sport was also more accessible than it used to be, adn it was easy for me to just jump in.

But, whatever. It'll always be a great pursuit, and it's inherently self-selecting - the people that aren't made for it will either fade away, stay in the gyms, or kill themselves in the process. I think climbing, by its very nature, will stay reasonably pure, even if it changes over time.


dingus


May 2, 2007, 11:05 AM
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moose_droppings wrote:
Are you self inducted into this status, or is it a vote by dirtbaggers?
Smile

Self-inducted? LOL! Of course not moosedroppings.

Its a Rubicon of sorts and the transition is unmistakable when you make it. It is accompanied by much slapping on the backs and frequent 'where ya been's' from all those who climbed the wall before.

DMT


granite_grrl


May 2, 2007, 11:10 AM
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My definition of n00b has slowly been changing. It used to mean to me someone who was just new to the sport, but now I'm realizing that I know n00bs that I have been particiating in the act of climbing for 3+ years.

Its more than just length of time at the sport. Its experiance, passion, deisre to learn, among other things, that lift a person above n00b status.


overlord


May 2, 2007, 11:17 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
Its more than just length of time at the sport. Its experiance, passion, deisre to learn, among other things, that lift a person above n00b status.

ditto that.

and its not the noobs who are killing the sport, its the stupid noobs.


knieveltech


May 2, 2007, 11:27 AM
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dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

We're definitely trying! There's really only two things standing in the way of total n00b annihilation of the sport (heretofor refered to as The Plan). These would be the high attrition rate among the ranks and the inherent difficulty of getting a glob of n00bs outside on some of the less accessible crags (read no sport routes, not situated within 300 yards of a parking lot, no hotel nearby, etc).

N00b central is currently working on a method of preventing new climbers from progressing out of the n00b stage, which should solve the attrition problem. While it's too soon to tell what this will look like in the field ideas from early brainstorming sessions include banning publication of most climbing literature (alpinist, FotH, anything by John Long, etc), especially those works that cover ethics in any capacity. Once this body of material is rendered down to books on climbing Everst, a VHS copy of Cliffhanger, and anything with Dosage in the title, phase one of this aspect of The Plan should be complete.

Transportation methods are also being worked on to make access to more climbing areas feasible for your average n00b. These could include paved shopping enclaves at the base of most crags nationwide, bolt-on gym-style holds so route setters will have more control over outdoor terrain, route tape to replace topos, and retro-bolting most established lines (up to the first pitch belay, multipitch climbing isn't currently in vogue with n00bs). Once transportation and facilities are in place plans include guided tours by the busload (just like river rafting, how exciting!).

We believe that these bold initiatives, in conjuntion with the Tickmark Project (one of several initiatives designed to alienate land managers), with assistance from media and advertising (thank you urban climber!), the death of climbing as it's been known for decades is a sure thing. We can all look forward to a bright future as climbing is once again transformed. Out of the ashes will rise a new (very low) democratic mean as outdoor climbing is overhauled to directly mirror indoor climbing.



"There have been spontaneous demonstrations amongs the workers voicing their joy and gratitude at our happy new way of life" - Orwell, 1984


caughtinside


May 2, 2007, 11:29 AM
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yes. n00bs killing the sport and all that.

Oh, and Ivan Greene. he is also killing the sport.


amikros


May 2, 2007, 11:46 AM
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I'm a new climber, but this is what I think...

On one level, I think that is a silly question.
For obvious reasons, there will always have to be noobs. If experienced climbers retreat into the backcountry with all their gear, their tents and, in some cases, their egos, never to introduce the sport to anyone else, the sport will die. Der.

Buuut, the sport, in theory, essence and community can die, as people turn it into a "look how cool I am," "look how quickly I learned to climb a 5.12d" contest. And that's the problem. Not the popularity of the sport, but the way the sport could be used as a validation point for your "noobs."


majid_sabet


May 2, 2007, 11:48 AM
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No, n00bs are not killing this sport however those who are marking climbing like it is another skateboarding are slowly pushing n00bs over the edge. Here n00b, buy these gears and go out there and play. Do not forget to read page 3 of that instruction on how to use the belay device.
Some of these fat money making managers should get together and pay for free n00b safety seminars if they really care about the safety.


tarzan


May 2, 2007, 12:14 PM
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Like it or not, climbing is swiftly becoming part of the mainstream. Yes this will bring in new crowds of people as it becomes more accessible. I do have the feeling that this somewhat cheapens the sport. Especially for the people that dedicate their life to it and are constantly pushing the limits.

Change is a part of all things. It brings both good and bad.

Maybe this new influx of popularity amidst common people will push the true climbers to take climbing to a totally new place, to separate themselves from those who view it as just a pass time.


greenketch


May 2, 2007, 12:14 PM
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I do not believe that it is noobs directly that are killing the sport. It is folk who come up with "the answer" that don't really know what they are talking about. The debacle on Hood last winter is a great example lot's of speculation by pepes that had no idea. I think these sorts of things are concentrated in the newb world but it is ignorance of newbieship that cause problems.

All of the spread of the sport has led many to forget that the single most correct statement one can make is "I don't know."


climb_eng


May 2, 2007, 12:20 PM
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Good troll... I think this one has legs.


majid_sabet


May 2, 2007, 12:32 PM
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tarzan wrote:
Like it or not, climbing is swiftly becoming part of the mainstream. Yes this will bring in new crowds of people as it becomes more accessible. I do have the feeling that this somewhat cheapens the sport. Especially for the people that dedicate their life to it and are constantly pushing the limits.

Change is a part of all things. It brings both good and bad.

Maybe this new influx of popularity amidst common people will push the true climbers to take climbing to a totally new place, to separate themselves from those who view it as just a pass time.


IMO we got two different groups of climbers, I mean we could label them to more than two but let’s focus on these two groups for now

A- True climbers who have all the elements in the right place to fit with nature and do it for life or life means climbing to them and nothing else.


B- ¼ Ass waneebee climbers who are just trying this new thing to see where they can fit with others , fuc8 things up for group A during this process ( Accidents, access issues, environmental impact), eventually they give-up ( See eBay and check out their items for sell ) and they move on to another game .


shropshire


May 2, 2007, 12:38 PM
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The sport is not dieing, so I guess that no one is killing it.


bandycoot


May 2, 2007, 1:07 PM
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First off, I'd say that our sport does a good job of killing n00bs so it might be square.

I'm a 20 something year old male. I started in the gym and thought pullups, campusing, and dynos were cool when I started. I attended the PBC to watch the celebrities climb and bouldered in Bishop because I didn't know how to lead.

Over the last 8 years since I started climbing, I've grown and learned about what our sport means. I've encirled myself with like minded people. We pick up trash when we see it, we rappel instead of lower to save the rock and rappel rings, we stay on trails and even help build them, we trad climb in the mountains, we watch sunsets and view scenery, and at the same time we try to push our limits and find out what we're made of.

Being a true part of the climbing community means helping ensure that the resource will always be there, interacting with the environment positively, and loving all forms of climbing. It means congratulating success instead of envying it, and the aesthetic line means more than the number (although they often go hand in hand). Snake Dike is still one of my favorite climbs ever!

Those who are "killing our sport" aren't the n00bs, but the selfish ones. The ones trying to get the most out of their environment without giving anything back. It's easy to cut switchbacks to save time, or crap at the base and not pack it out. It's possible to climb an arch and self publicize while hurting future access for every climber that follows. Egos balloon and bolt wars ensue that result in permenant scars that all will see. Trash gets left on big walls (definitely not n00b territory there). There were the people hammering The Green Arch last month at Tahquitz doing permenant damage to a spectacular free climb so that they could get some "aid practice." It's the selfish that ruin the sport, not the n00bs. Sometimes the selfish and the n00b go hand in hand, but often it is out of ignorance. The finger should be pointed at those experienced, yet still selfish, climbers who work to ruin it for all. The Dean Potters, the Art Messiers, the excessive hammerers and so on, because not only do they know better, they decide to act the way they do with that knowledge.

Josh


svilnit


May 2, 2007, 1:20 PM
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jgloporto wrote:
dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

I saw that commercial....

I don't think they are killing the sport. They are great for the sport. Lot's of cheap barely used gear on e-bay is great. Lot's of hot adventure seeking co-eds flooding the place who are impressed by words like "clove hitch" and "ice tool" is great. Reading posts about shoes, fat climber/skinny belayer situations and how n00bs are killing the sport is great.

What's not great about this.


(p.s. I made up the part about the hot co-eds but the first time I see a hot co-ed harnessed up somewhere, I am definitely going to work "clove hitch" and "ice tool" into the coversation somehow.)


Yeah, I could see it now....

"Hey baby, what do you think about me clove hitching my ice tool to your butterfly knot?"


hornboy101


May 2, 2007, 1:34 PM
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We were all new, but eventually people get weeded out, or fall really far.


slowhand


May 2, 2007, 1:55 PM
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Its funny I heard the same question last year when I was learning curling.


jgloporto


May 2, 2007, 2:10 PM
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svilnit wrote:
jgloporto wrote:
dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

I saw that commercial....

I don't think they are killing the sport. They are great for the sport. Lot's of cheap barely used gear on e-bay is great. Lot's of hot adventure seeking co-eds flooding the place who are impressed by words like "clove hitch" and "ice tool" is great. Reading posts about shoes, fat climber/skinny belayer situations and how n00bs are killing the sport is great.

What's not great about this.


(p.s. I made up the part about the hot co-eds but the first time I see a hot co-ed harnessed up somewhere, I am definitely going to work "clove hitch" and "ice tool" into the coversation somehow.)


Yeah, I could see it now....

"Hey baby, what do you think about me clove hitching my ice tool to your butterfly knot?"

Oh, please. I'd be way more subtle than that... and besides it's meant to impress them, not sound like a cheesy pick up line. More like:

"...some people might use an alpine butterfly, but I always clove hitch myself to my ice tool before I start making v-threads... blah, blah, blah... the best way to haul is with a prussik minding pulley and of course you got use a bear paw to organize the belay I like to use a microcender as a brake... blah, blah, blah... so can I put my junk in your box?"


uhoh


May 2, 2007, 2:36 PM
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dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

Well, you've uncovered our secret plan. There's no point in denying it now. Yeah, we're out to get you. We're the dudes out there throwing full bottles of beer at you from the overhangs (don't worry, they're light beer). We're the ones buying up all the North Face and Prana attire we can find. We're the ones out there wearing out holds, spilling toxic chalk everywhere, and chopping bolts because we don't like where they are on routes.

And you know what, Dingus? You can't stop us. You have the knowledge, but we have the numbers, and we're out to get you!

Keep your nightlight on. Wear your tinfoil hat. Because the moment you don't is the moment we jump you in the dark or beam distracting thoughts into your head and make you run out past twenty or thirty meters of clips on the wrong route. And you know what happens then, don't you?































That's when tubgirl and goatsex get you!


jgloporto


May 2, 2007, 2:45 PM
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uhoh wrote:
dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

Well, you've uncovered our secret plan. There's no point in denying it now. Yeah, we're out to get you. We're the dudes out there throwing full bottles of beer at you from the overhangs (don't worry, they're light beer). We're the ones buying up all the North Face and Prana attire we can find. We're the ones out there wearing out holds, spilling toxic chalk everywhere, and chopping bolts because we don't like where they are on routes.

And you know what, Dingus? You can't stop us. You have the knowledge, but we have the numbers, and we're out to get you!

Keep your nightlight on. Wear your tinfoil hat. Because the moment you don't is the moment we jump you in the dark or beam distracting thoughts into your head and make you run out past twenty or thirty meters of clips on the wrong route. And you know what happens then, don't you?































That's when tubgirl and goatsex get you!

heh, heh, heh....


STFU n00b.

Where's D_A when you need him. Somebody needs to put an end to this kind of excessive-spacing-for-dramatic/comedic-effect....


taydude


May 2, 2007, 2:45 PM
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Wow it's true the noobs are making the outdoors more like indoors. They seem to have a headquarters seen in this video: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ntain_China_337.html

zomg how sketchy n00b is that?! painted rock, holds on the rock, and one unseen anchor point? that graveyard at the end of the video must be past customers.


Sin


May 2, 2007, 2:46 PM
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bandycoot wrote:
Over the last 8 years since I started climbing, I've grown and learned about what our sport means. I've encirled myself with like minded people. We pick up trash when we see it, we rappel instead of lower to save the rock and rappel rings, we stay on trails and even help build them, we trad climb in the mountains, we watch sunsets and view scenery, and at the same time we try to push our limits and find out what we're made of.

Being a true part of the climbing community means helping ensure that the resource will always be there, interacting with the environment positively, and loving all forms of climbing. It means congratulating success instead of envying it,......
Josh

Thats what im talking about, I started climbing at a gym three months ago and since then i've been hooked on climbing, 4 times a week at the gym and once a week out to the local craigs. I started leading a month ago and i jus love pushing past the fear of getting up a route and finishing it, not because of what others will say, you do it because you can. Besides I've never climbed with a group, its always been me and my partner in and out of the gym. While im out there i try and leave the area better than what i find. I love being out in nature and before climbing i did alot of hiking. It sounds cheesy, but you do feel at one with the universe out in the wild. This coming june we are organizing a clean up crew to fix up the riverside quarry. It doesnt really matter how much experience one has, but the passion and the amount of effort that one is willing to invest in the name of the sport. Instead about whinning about a commercial, we should be worried about preserving our climbing areas and preserving the earth we live on. As a hand full of people have already said, it doesnt really matter what your level of climbing is, what matters is what your thoughts and actions are towards maintaining this sport as a healthy and natural way of personal expression. Its this type of thread that really shows us how stuck up some people can be. I may be new to the sport, but it doesnt mean that i cant have the same amount of passion and respect for the sport as a 20 yr veteran.


bandycoot


May 2, 2007, 2:59 PM
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Sin, I might be able to organize a number of people to help if you do a RQ cleanup, and that place NEEDS IT! Have you contacted the land manager and talked to him about it? It can really help with future access to show land managers that climbers are willing to pitch in and preserve a resource they use. Anyways, give me an e-mail with the specifics of the cleanup as soon as you know them and I'll spread the word down in SD. joshdhiggins@gmail.com

Josh


majid_sabet


May 2, 2007, 3:19 PM
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Let’s ship all n00bs to some island with boulders no taller than 2 feet.

I was going to say 5 feet but I know they keep hurting themselves on any thing above 5.


bandycoot


May 2, 2007, 3:21 PM
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See ya later majid! I'll pay the shipping and handling! Cool


dingus


May 2, 2007, 3:41 PM
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uhoh wrote:
That's when tubgirl and goatsex get you!

Goatsex? How do you take it?

DMT


WildMountainHighsUnite


May 2, 2007, 4:20 PM
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"NOOBIE" HERE!!!!!!!!!!!
I am disapointed, though not deterred. So, if the latter was truly your motive then I am fairly sorry for contributing to your failure...
Again.......I AM A NEWBIE! (and be WARNED. for I may "kill" surfing as well. Although, wait, I suppose that has already been done thirty years ago by some Poser-Ass-Newbie-TeenyBopper named Greg Noll, and his infamous band of "Cool Seeking" miscreants, who ironically revolutionized the sport by raising the bar far above anyone's conception of what was possible.
So what does Noll and surfing's recent stardom have to do with the DINGUS question?
EVERYTHING!---NOobs are essential for the progressive movement of ANY sport, skill, or art form. Even the Ignorant or just plain Stupid ones will eventually teach a lesson to the entire sport and it's community. The Lesson, I believe, will resemble something always known, and yet too often forgotten. Perhaps the most valuble lesson of them all:
Why Do We Do This?
Why do YOU love this?
What are we In It For?
Is it really for fame, glory, and the superfluous "honor" of being called (or worse) calling yourself ELITE?
If so, than I feel sorry for you.........I feel sorry for you all. I feel sorry that you have waisted 10, 15, 20 years of your life pursing artificial rewards, and pedestals of Gold and Ivory.
I AM A NEWBIE!
though I am not deterred by the ever infectious presence of pretentious OLDIES in every facet of society; From my own father, who thought that low paid immigrants were killing "His" roofing business, to record execs hating Itunes, and Napster for Killng the music industry, to Newport roasts of Bob Dylan Killing Folk music, to HighTip PopTarts accusing Marlon Brando of Killing acting, to CD's killing cassettes killing 8-tracks killing records, to Hemmingway killing the classics, to Video Killing the FUCKING RADIO STAR.......
Idiots and Macho-Title Seekers will never survive in any arena where Will to Power is the supreme prerequisite, and change is inevitable.
And so, all nOOB fearers fear not. Natural selection will undoubtedly weed out the weak and weary.
I don't know about all of YOU.......
but I am here because I call no other place home.
Without the mountain.........my soul would die.
I am certain of it;
So, WHY have I chosen to pursue learning the art technical rock climbing and alpine mountaineering at the ripe-tender age of 26?
SIMPLE: I have finally realized that there are still so many more rooms in OUR house still unexplored.
Why stop at the living rooM?
But then again.........I am just a nOOB!

My FINAL opinion (I pomise):

EGO IS KILLING OUR SPORT!! ---beware of yourself.


foeslts16


May 2, 2007, 4:43 PM
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About 2 yrs ago, me and my climbing partner are out climbing. we see a bunch of newbies setting up a top rope on a 5.6. they are making a big production of the whole thing. i look over at my partner and say "these new climbing types just bug me." my partner looks at me and says "heh, that was us a year ago." and he was right. we are ALL newbies at some point. then at some point, we progress and feel the need to differentiate ourselves from the beginners/not so skilled/etc.. we are all just climbing rocks..


jgloporto


May 2, 2007, 4:58 PM
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WildMountainHighsUnite wrote:
"NOOBIE" HERE!!!!!!!!!!!
I am disapointed, though not deterred. So, if the latter was truly your motive then I am fairly sorry for contributing to your failure...
Again.......I AM A NEWBIE! (and be WARNED. for I may "kill" surfing as well. Although, wait, I suppose that has already been done thirty years ago by some Poser-Ass-Newbie-TeenyBopper named Greg Noll, and his infamous band of "Cool Seeking" miscreants, who ironically revolutionized the sport by raising the bar far above anyone's conception of what was possible.
So what does Noll and surfing's recent stardom have to do with the DINGUS question?
EVERYTHING!---NOobs are essential for the progressive movement of ANY sport, skill, or art form. Even the Ignorant or just plain Stupid ones will eventually teach a lesson to the entire sport and it's community. The Lesson, I believe, will resemble something always known, and yet too often forgotten. Perhaps the most valuble lesson of them all:
Why Do We Do This?
Why do YOU love this?
What are we In It For?
Is it really for fame, glory, and the superfluous "honor" of being called (or worse) calling yourself ELITE?
If so, than I feel sorry for you.........I feel sorry for you all. I feel sorry that you have waisted 10, 15, 20 years of your life pursing artificial rewards, and pedestals of Gold and Ivory.
I AM A NEWBIE!
though I am not deterred by the ever infectious presence of pretentious OLDIES in every facet of society; From my own father, who thought that low paid immigrants were killing "His" roofing business, to record execs hating Itunes, and Napster for Killng the music industry, to Newport roasts of Bob Dylan Killing Folk music, to HighTip PopTarts accusing Marlon Brando of Killing acting, to CD's killing cassettes killing 8-tracks killing records, to Hemmingway killing the classics, to Video Killing the FUCKING RADIO STAR.......
Idiots and Macho-Title Seekers will never survive in any arena where Will to Power is the supreme prerequisite, and change is inevitable.
And so, all nOOB fearers fear not. Natural selection will undoubtedly weed out the weak and weary.
I don't know about all of YOU.......
but I am here because I call no other place home.
Without the mountain.........my soul would die.
I am certain of it;
So, WHY have I chosen to pursue learning the art technical rock climbing and alpine mountaineering at the ripe-tender age of 26?
SIMPLE: I have finally realized that there are still so many more rooms in OUR house still unexplored.
Why stop at the living rooM?
But then again.........I am just a nOOB!

My FINAL opinion (I pomise):

EGO IS KILLING OUR SPORT!! ---beware of yourself.

So, wait... are you a hot newbie co-ed? If so, I have so much to tell you about prussik-minding pulleys.



HOT NEWBIE CO-EDS, UNITE!!


boku


May 2, 2007, 5:33 PM
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It's the end of climbing as we know it.

I feel fine.


dingus


May 2, 2007, 6:58 PM
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WildMountainHighsUnite wrote:
EGO IS KILLING OUR SPORT!! ---beware of yourself.

Ego is the BASIS of our sport mate!

DMT


e_free


May 2, 2007, 7:08 PM
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Thinkin climbing is more likely to kill than be killed Tongue


PuShIt


May 2, 2007, 7:13 PM
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dingus wrote:
WildMountainHighsUnite wrote:
EGO IS KILLING OUR SPORT!! ---beware of yourself.

Ego is the BASIS of our sport mate!

DMT

Obviously it is for you.
I can't relate---my BASIS is the rock and ice!


Partner j_ung


May 2, 2007, 7:25 PM
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n00bs aren't killing my climbing. If anything, it's getting healthier.


wonder1978


May 2, 2007, 7:32 PM
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climb_eng wrote:
Good troll... I think this one has legs.

Funny how it actually picked up after that comment. Noob climbers, noob forum users I guess.

WildMountainHighsUnite wrote:
Hemmingway killing the classics,

English major hey? And which classics would that be?


Partner oldsalt


May 2, 2007, 7:50 PM
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WildMountainHighsUnite wrote:
"NOOBIE" HERE!!!!!!!!!!!
("blah, blah, blah" - I mean "...") to Hemmingway killing the classics...

At least have the decency to spell Hemingway correctly. I'm certain that Robert Jordan could do it.

Now I know why I avoid crowds at the crag. I might end up listening to this kind of babble.


sky7high


May 2, 2007, 7:57 PM
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hugin wrote:
Not death by noob. Everyone's a noob at some point, and if there weren't noobs, climbing would die out with all the old climbers.

I would call it evisceration by popularity. There are a lot of people who try it as a novelty, to be cool, without appreciating the risks or understanding the culture. Because of that, it also gains more social and political visibility in the mainstream ... it's no longer a fringe activity or necessarily as "extreme" a sport in the public eye anymore. That's good and bad in ways ... but I would say that the primary result is the dilution of climbing culture.

Even 15 years ago, when I first started climbing, you needed to meet people and learn from experienced climbers to really get to know the crags, the process, and the ethic ... and the ethics were very strong within the community. But, at that time, I was warned of the growing number of "sport" climbers (as opposed to what those guys were calling "nature" climbers) who didn't appreciate preservation of land, the access issues, or the integrity of the stone. I came back into the fold a couple of years ago, and found that most of their warnings were very well-placed, but that the result of that growth was that the sport was also more accessible than it used to be, adn it was easy for me to just jump in.

But, whatever. It'll always be a great pursuit, and it's inherently self-selecting - the people that aren't made for it will either fade away, stay in the gyms, or kill themselves in the process. I think climbing, by its very nature, will stay reasonably pure, even if it changes over time.

ditto that, especially the part about the climbing culture getting diluted. An example of a way n00bs can really hurt us, is by hurting nature, not only will it damage our reputation as people hwo abide by the LNT ethic, but also the very experience of climbing will get MUCH worse.


zeke_sf


May 2, 2007, 7:57 PM
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oldsalt wrote:
At least have the decency to spell Hemingway correctly.

Fuck that self-pitying weakmo!


Partner oldsalt


May 2, 2007, 8:03 PM
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zeke, you are a man of Letters?


the_leech


May 2, 2007, 8:08 PM
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Damn, Dingus. This is masterful. I am humbled. And I'm man enough to admit that I've been schooled.


colkurtz


May 2, 2007, 8:18 PM
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americans are killing the sport.

worse americans wishing they were brits


moose_droppings


May 2, 2007, 8:18 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

Are you self inducted into this status, or is it a vote by dirtbaggers?
Smile

Did we kill the sport when we were n00bs? I think it will live on regardless of the influx of gymbies and noobs.

You didn't get jumped into the gang by running the Hex Gauntlet?

n00b.

Blood in, blood out, right CI


healyje


May 2, 2007, 8:53 PM
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j_ung wrote:
n00bs aren't killing my climbing. If anything, it's getting healthier.

If an easy 85% of climbers being 100% bolt dependent, rampant commercialization, increased access problems, trampled resources, grid bolting, and a complete k-fed, supermarket integration into suburban pop culture is your idea of 'healthier', then my guess is you are either selling climbing in some way or another or you are a comfortable member of the horde. To be honest, I started climbing to avoid hanging out around just the sort of risk-averse suburbanites who have now thoroughly innundated it.

Does that sound elitist? It's actually just misanthropic.


healyje


May 2, 2007, 8:55 PM
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Ya gotta love Dingus though - he's a real man among trolls...


curt


May 2, 2007, 10:58 PM
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bandycoot wrote:
First off, I'd say that our sport does a good job of killing n00bs so it might be square.

I'm a 20 something year old male. I started in the gym and thought pullups, campusing, and dynos were cool when I started. I attended the PBC to watch the celebrities climb and bouldered in Bishop because I didn't know how to lead.

Over the last 8 years since I started climbing, I've grown and learned about what our sport means. I've encirled myself with like minded people. We pick up trash when we see it, we rappel instead of lower to save the rock and rappel rings, we stay on trails and even help build them, we trad climb in the mountains, we watch sunsets and view scenery, and at the same time we try to push our limits and find out what we're made of.

Being a true part of the climbing community means helping ensure that the resource will always be there, interacting with the environment positively, and loving all forms of climbing. It means congratulating success instead of envying it, and the aesthetic line means more than the number (although they often go hand in hand). Snake Dike is still one of my favorite climbs ever!

Those who are "killing our sport" aren't the n00bs, but the selfish ones. The ones trying to get the most out of their environment without giving anything back. It's easy to cut switchbacks to save time, or crap at the base and not pack it out. It's possible to climb an arch and self publicize while hurting future access for every climber that follows. Egos balloon and bolt wars ensue that result in permenant scars that all will see. Trash gets left on big walls (definitely not n00b territory there). There were the people hammering The Green Arch last month at Tahquitz doing permenant damage to a spectacular free climb so that they could get some "aid practice." It's the selfish that ruin the sport, not the n00bs. Sometimes the selfish and the n00b go hand in hand, but often it is out of ignorance. The finger should be pointed at those experienced, yet still selfish, climbers who work to ruin it for all. The Dean Potters, the Art Messiers, the excessive hammerers and so on, because not only do they know better, they decide to act the way they do with that knowledge.

Josh

Great post, although I doubt it will be much noticed or appreciated in this thread.

Curt


suzie_cuzie


May 2, 2007, 11:23 PM
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healyje wrote:
Ya gotta love Dingus though - he's a real man among trolls...

Really? I kinda thought this one was sub-par...No offense to Dingus, but there just wasn't that certain je-ne-sais-quois that a truly good troll has.


rc_vinay


May 3, 2007, 2:31 AM
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dont forget that there was a time when u were noob to.


tomcat


May 3, 2007, 4:07 AM
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I have no problem with nOObs.I still fondly recall my nOOb days,we were clueless,definately the most dangerous era of my thirty years of climbing,would not trade those days for anything.

I remember an early partner stalling forever just above the crux of a grueling 5.4 overhang.When he finally made the belay I asked what took so long.He held up an orange sling with no knot in it.I'd girth hitched a tree and he did not know enough to just unhitch it,so hung by one hand and untied the knot.

That said,the thing that does concern me is the idea that climbing should be,and is,SAFE.It's not,and it's not meant to be.It's the mountains,stuff happens.You can certainly reduce the odds...but.

I watch the endless bitching about Aliens,and sometimes I pull out an old bootleg half size friend and a quarter inch rawl and look at them for reference.OMG was that thing sketchy.We'd have given anything for a set of Aliens,and if a few blew apart we would have still cherished them.We did new stuff on tied off pins and it all seemed pretty normal.Now everybody has to have a prefixed rappel anchor,a huge list of beta,people on Gunks.com will tell you every piece you will need to lead a 5.5.

Sport climbing looked Ok at first,but we never dreamed anyone would bolt a crack.


rockclimbchar


May 3, 2007, 5:40 AM
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Clarify "Noobs" exactly. That makes a big difference re: a reply. Am I a "Noob"? To some, maybe. To myself, no. I have been climbing for 5 years or so but do not climb a high grade considering that length of time. My two daughters and husband climb as well. None of us are big shot, ego climbers either. We respect nature and are sensitive to access issues. We learn as we go. In the beginning we probably made a lot of mistakes regarding climbing ethics due to lack of info. It is the responsibility of the seasoned climbers to teach this to the Noobs, not to separate from them. The noobs will either find they love climbing or hate it or do somethings really unsafe and get hurt pretty bad or die. Again, seasoned climbers have a responsibility. Everyone was a Noob. I didn't have the luxury of learning from a mentor and had to learn mostly on my own, I also had a couple of injuries and I don't get to climb as much as I want to and need to (family and work obligations - I didn't start climbing till I was approx. 32yrs. old so those responsibilities were already in place), therefore the reason for slow progress. However, it is definitely a passion for me. I like Sport climbing a lot, does this make me a Noob? (I don't feel a climb that can be well protected by trad gear should be bolted however). I have only led trad a little bit and am quite uncomfortable of it still so I only trad lead beginner climbs yet push my limits on sport. Does this make me a noob? I still toprope a lot, does this make me a noob? I climb in the gym during the "off" season which is quite a bit in NE PA, does that make me a noob? I climb quite slow on multi-pitches, does that make me a noob? I still have a million things to learn and often ask pretty simple questions of better climbers than myself, does this make me a noob? I really enjoy introducing climbing to others, does that make me a noob or a contributer to the demise of climbing? I don't have a big ego, does that make me a noob? Even though I have climbed for so long, I can still look like a goof on the rocks as well as my family members, does that make me/ us noobs? Well, I don't really have an answer to your question, just some things to contemplate.

I do emphasize however that seasoned climbers with good climbing ethics have a responsibility to keep Newbies from contributing to any "Death of climbing by Noobs". A much better attitude than sitting around and bitching about it, letting egos get in the way, and snubbing our noses at people new to climbing is to be good mentors. The gym rats who decide to wander outside will get weeded out once they realize the seriousness of outdoor climbing and will either stick to it forever or their climbing interest will fade like an old hobby. Meanwhile, for those of us who are addicted to climbing, we can help protect any access issues, ect. through passing on the ethics.

For those of us who truley love climbing, "image" should not be an issue. Commercialized "image" opposed to the more realistic hard core, intimate circle "image" of climbing. "Image" can come dangerously close to "Ego". If I let my ego get in the way then I would have quit climbing a long time ago since I am not climbing 5.12's yet considering how long I have been climbing. Hell, I might not ever be, but that is not what it is about for me. Climbing is a passion for me, I am miserable when I can't climb. I am competitive, but only with myself (one of many beauties about climbing). I have met more helpful, eager to share their experience, type of seasoned climbers than I have the egotistical type that snub their noses, considering me to be not worth their time. I hope it will always stay that way. That has always been a great attribute of the "climbing community", the respect towards each other, regardless of what stage of climbing they are at.
Just something to ponder..............

***Just to clear up any confusion or misunderstanding: There is more than one definition for "Ego". One definition is: "the element of being that consciously and continuously enables an individual to think, feel, and act." Another definition is: "conceit" - "an exaggerated opinion of one's ability, importance, etc." Conceit is the definition I am referring to when using the word “ego” in this posting. These definitions are from The World Book Encyclopedia. These two differences in the use of the word "ego" could definitely cause a misinterpretation of my posting. Also, there is a lot more to my posting/ reply than just about egos.


(This post was edited by rockclimbchar on May 4, 2007, 8:06 AM)


svilnit


May 3, 2007, 5:51 AM
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dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

We should all bow to the master troller...



King Dingus!


Partner oldsalt


May 3, 2007, 5:57 AM
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To rockclimbchar:

Very well said.

I would like to think that there are Noobs and people new to climbing. Noobs would come across as Noobs in whatever they choose to do, because they are socially mal-adjusted, etc.

I was new to climbing four years ago. I have a list of things that I have not done but want to do, and things that I have not learned but want to learn. I am still a novice, but I don't feel like a Noob. I hope that there is a difference.

[Edited to clarify target of post]


(This post was edited by oldsalt on May 3, 2007, 5:59 AM)


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May 3, 2007, 6:25 AM
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healyje wrote:
j_ung wrote:
n00bs aren't killing my climbing. If anything, it's getting healthier.

If an easy 85% of climbers being 100% bolt dependent, rampant commercialization, increased access problems, trampled resources, grid bolting, and a complete k-fed, supermarket integration into suburban pop culture is your idea of 'healthier', then my guess is you are either selling climbing in some way or another or you are a comfortable member of the horde. To be honest, I started climbing to avoid hanging out around just the sort of risk-averse suburbanites who have now thoroughly innundated it.

Actually, there's another explanation. I have more fun climbing now that I ever have before and it seems to get better (even though I get weaker) as life goes on. I'm far more personally involved in local access than ever before, for the first time in my life I live exactly where I want to, and on any given day, I can phone up any of thirty or so people and have a partner on belay in an hour.

So, when I say MY climbing is healthier than ever, that's exactly what I mean. If the rest of you chumps worried more about your own impact on "the sport" (whatever the Hell that is -- how do you define such a diverse concept?) and less about others, I think you might find that everything really is a-o-k.


slowkid
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Could this be the first viable entry for the Troll Contest?!? You have my vote, sir. Well done Dingus. Well done.


dingus


May 3, 2007, 6:41 AM
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rockclimbchar wrote:
Commercialized "image" opposed to the more realistic hard core, intimate circle "image" of climbing.

The 'core' climber IS the image they sell.

In reply to:
"Image" can come dangerously close to "Ego".

Ah there's that dreaded word ego. But for ego El Cap would never have been climbed.

In reply to:
If I let my ego get in the way then I would have quit climbing a long time ago since I am not climbing 5.12's yet considering how long I have been climbing.

Who said anything about an ego getting in the way? Ego is the fuel of climbing's competitive fire.

DMT


urbanpioneer


May 3, 2007, 6:46 AM
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uhoh I think you're missing the point but it seems like you're missing a lot more than that too.

Being a nOOb isn't related to the time you've been climbing but the attitude you bring to climbing. If you're climbing .12d and shouting like an asshole but bring your crashpad to sit around on while your dog shits all over the crag you're still a nOOb as far as I'm concerned. It's a process that not everyone in the sport can go through and is seriously hindered by time in the gym where climbing has all but entered an institutionalized-jazzercised-tae boed-mother-fucking-Sweatin' to the oldies-i'm here for a workout-mentality. But the gym, for as much as it allows easy entry to our sport, is still separating those who get if from those who just have something to prove. God help us if these jackasses have the power to destroy something as strong and revered as our precious sport.


bob_54b


May 3, 2007, 7:03 AM
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don't own a TV, don't even know what a noob is, never tell Lonely Planet, free solo by others so fast they think you're a breeze, ie: it's what you make it for yourself. HEEHEEHEEECool


pyramid


May 3, 2007, 7:07 AM
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Noobs are merely a byproduct of capitolism and marketing. The need of capitolism is to create change so new ways can be found to sell products. The white bread Cleaver type family marketing has been on going since TV's early days, so marketers are looking for new ideas. They got ahold of 'exreme' sports and are using this concept as their new marketing tool. Climbing isn't the only Noob filled sport. You see white 20 somethings in their Toyotas with the full rack; skis, bikes, kayak, rock gear inside,etc. They have taken to the newer marketing and of course are new to these various activities. Noobery is only a narual by-product of capitolism, I mean what are these people going to do after buying all this equipment, just look at it?


Partner oldsalt


May 3, 2007, 7:25 AM
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pyramid wrote:
Noobs are merely a byproduct of capitolism and marketing. The need of capitolism is to create change so new ways can be found to sell products. The white bread Cleaver type family marketing has been on going since TV's early days, so marketers are looking for new ideas. They got ahold of 'exreme' sports and are using this concept as their new marketing tool. Climbing isn't the only Noob filled sport. You see white 20 somethings in their Toyotas with the full rack; skis, bikes, kayak, rock gear inside,etc. They have taken to the newer marketing and of course are new to these various activities. Noobery is only a narual by-product of capitolism, I mean what are these people going to do after buying all this equipment, just look at it?

I must disagree with the heart of your point. CapitAlism is the economic system for individuals. Climbing is an activity for individuals. I do not know anyone who climbs because they saw, for example, the Subaru(?) ad where the group of guys drive across the desert to a tower and chicken-out when they get there.

It has been established in other threads that climbers as a group are well educated (formally or otherwise). We do not do things because others do it. If anything, we probably do it because others do not climb.

Your belayer is a necessary means to get to spend time alone with your thoughts and fears on a face or slab. My partner and I are friends and we trust each other with our lives, but I still climb for my time on the rock. We both solo when we can't get out together. This speaks volumes about individualism.

Regarding Noobs - my previous post about them vs people merely new to the sport still stands, in my mind.


zeke_sf


May 3, 2007, 8:06 AM
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oldsalt wrote:
zeke, you are a man of Letters?

Nah, I've given up on reading. Fortunately, this site doesn't require any. I just have a grudge against the suicidal greats. Seven-toed cats are cool though.

I think I saw some nOObs this weekend. They practically had an aid rack to climb a three pitch 5.6. The six screamers or so hanging from one of their harnesses, however, was what indelibly emblazoned the scarlet "N" across their foreheads for me.


sarcat


May 3, 2007, 8:29 AM
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Troll or not the "d" has a point.

No matter how long or how much some people have been climbing they're still nOObesqe in their attitude and self serving behavior. They're braggarts that ruin the image dirtbaggers enjoy. Or because of lack in training or skill they deck drawing attention and criticism, altering public perception of what the sport really is.

Others just learning show the respect to the traditions and quickly become positive, quite ambassadors to the sport not bringing attention to themselves and their shiny new gear.

Let's start a nOOb police force. Of course I won't join because I'm probably still a nOOb myself.


the_leech


May 3, 2007, 8:52 AM
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suzie_cuzie wrote:
healyje wrote:
Ya gotta love Dingus though - he's a real man among trolls...

Really? I kinda thought this one was sub-par...No offense to Dingus, but there just wasn't that certain je-ne-sais-quois that a truly good troll has.

I disagree. Although not particularly original, it's a strong troll.

First, he used his older, respected username with 7,000+ posts to give the thread legitimacy. Then, he broached an inflammatory topic in a non-threatening manner without leveling any direct accusations. This approach is sophisticated – it draws out passionate and indignant responses without resorting to the effective but simplistic aggro in-your-face opening post. Last (and this is what did it for me), he used an erudite reference and “horseshit” in the same sentence. That adds the necessary “je ne sais quoi,” as far as I’m concerned.

But we all have our own preferences for troll styling.


granite_grrl


May 3, 2007, 9:06 AM
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the_leech wrote:
suzie_cuzie wrote:
healyje wrote:
Ya gotta love Dingus though - he's a real man among trolls...

Really? I kinda thought this one was sub-par...No offense to Dingus, but there just wasn't that certain je-ne-sais-quois that a truly good troll has.

I disagree. Although not particularly original, it's a strong troll.

First, he used his older, respected username with 7,000+ posts to give the thread legitimacy. Then, he broached an inflammatory topic in a non-threatening manner without leveling any direct accusations. This approach is sophisticated – it draws out passionate and indignant responses without resorting to the effective but simplistic aggro in-your-face opening post. Last (and this is what did it for me), he used an erudite reference and “horseshit” in the same sentence. That adds the necessary “je ne sais quoi,” as far as I’m concerned.

But we all have our own preferences for troll styling.

Why women climb was good, the initial post was humorous, but it was quite obvious a troll. Dingus actually has a little more truth behind his troll, but its almost not fair to troll the n00bs, like shooting fish in a barrel.


the_leech


May 3, 2007, 9:27 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
Why women climb was good, the initial post was humorous, but it was quite obvious a troll. Dingus actually has a little more truth behind his troll, but its almost not fair to troll the n00bs, like shooting fish in a barrel.

True. Although this one has generated a significant response from old schoolers and n00bs alike. That's another reason I think it's a strong troll.

I'm interested to see how this thread will pan out compared to "The n00bs must be culled."


majid_sabet


May 3, 2007, 9:40 AM
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Here
Some one is making CASH from poor n00bs starting today on RC and soon NIGERIANS are going to take over RC offering every thing with climbing


http://www.rockclimbing.com/...5;page=unread#unread

[URL=http://imageshack.us]


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 3, 2007, 10:10 AM)


climb_eng


May 3, 2007, 9:42 AM
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I saw that one, I really thing some ass is going to send Jay a dollar. Wouldn't surprise me one bit....


microbarn


May 3, 2007, 10:14 AM
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curt wrote:
bandycoot wrote:
First off, I'd say that our sport does a good job of killing n00bs so it might be square.

I'm a 20 something year old male. I started in the gym and thought pullups, campusing, and dynos were cool when I started. I attended the PBC to watch the celebrities climb and bouldered in Bishop because I didn't know how to lead.

Over the last 8 years since I started climbing, I've grown and learned about what our sport means. I've encirled myself with like minded people. We pick up trash when we see it, we rappel instead of lower to save the rock and rappel rings, we stay on trails and even help build them, we trad climb in the mountains, we watch sunsets and view scenery, and at the same time we try to push our limits and find out what we're made of.

Being a true part of the climbing community means helping ensure that the resource will always be there, interacting with the environment positively, and loving all forms of climbing. It means congratulating success instead of envying it, and the aesthetic line means more than the number (although they often go hand in hand). Snake Dike is still one of my favorite climbs ever!

Those who are "killing our sport" aren't the n00bs, but the selfish ones. The ones trying to get the most out of their environment without giving anything back. It's easy to cut switchbacks to save time, or crap at the base and not pack it out. It's possible to climb an arch and self publicize while hurting future access for every climber that follows. Egos balloon and bolt wars ensue that result in permenant scars that all will see. Trash gets left on big walls (definitely not n00b territory there). There were the people hammering The Green Arch last month at Tahquitz doing permenant damage to a spectacular free climb so that they could get some "aid practice." It's the selfish that ruin the sport, not the n00bs. Sometimes the selfish and the n00b go hand in hand, but often it is out of ignorance. The finger should be pointed at those experienced, yet still selfish, climbers who work to ruin it for all. The Dean Potters, the Art Messiers, the excessive hammerers and so on, because not only do they know better, they decide to act the way they do with that knowledge.

Josh

Great post, although I doubt it will be much noticed or appreciated in this thread.

Curt

Hell yes! It is definitely going unnoticed. Way to long to bother reading all that.

ditto on the other wordy ones


Partner j_ung


May 3, 2007, 10:18 AM
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climb_eng wrote:
I saw that one, I really thing some ass is going to send Jay a dollar. Wouldn't surprise me one bit....

One can only hope! Smile


Partner macherry


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i heard dean potter was killing our sport


GeneralBenson


May 3, 2007, 1:12 PM
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I think the day that we as climbers start disregarding the new people, is the day that climbing will suck. I myslef and just barely eclipsing noob status, but I've long since admired climbing from a far. My favorite thing about climbing is the sense of community. It's really hard to find an A-hole climber. As a noob, I was thrilled at the amount of help I got from 'elite' climbers. After being into other things like working out and drag racing, where noobs are treated like crap, It was a welcome change. So we've got this great community, and yeah it's being infiltrated. Apparently orange juice helps you climb, Puma makes 'climbing style' street shoes, and I see more and more people wearing Prana, and I wonder if they really climb. So how do we respond to this? We could do what every other hobby has done when faced with the threat of trendiness, which is to establish a caste system in which noobs cannot rise to another level, because they will get no help. Or, we can try and make the best of it. We could help them become better climbers. Like someone said, it's not the noobs, but the selfish. If we show people how to climb right, and that being a climber is more than just knowing how to get up a rock, then the next generation will be nothing to fear. Personally, I'm always looking for more climbing partners.


justroberto


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gobennyjo


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I dont think it is that noobs are killing the sport it is just the huge influx of noobs is amazing, I am not really comlaining though. My thought is if all the gym rats become good and crowd the rocks, I doupt it though. Some people complain about all the noobs at there favorite spot but you should just do harder rocks and then you don't have to worry about them


skinnyclimber


May 3, 2007, 1:33 PM
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healyje wrote:
...trolls...

"What you angry for and actin all tense? Cuz if you innocent be cool, only the guilty's catchin offence"


GeneralBenson


May 3, 2007, 2:04 PM
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Well, I've yet to find one.


suzie_cuzie


May 3, 2007, 2:43 PM
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justroberto wrote:
GeneralBenson wrote:
It's really hard to find an A-hole climber.
Maybe if you're an ostrich and something scary is running by...

You know, they did a study over a period of decades involving tens of thousands of ostriches, and they concluded that no ostrich had ever buried his head in the sand or even attempted to. Fun fact for you.


shockabuku


May 3, 2007, 3:32 PM
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suzie_cuzie wrote:
justroberto wrote:
GeneralBenson wrote:
It's really hard to find an A-hole climber.
Maybe if you're an ostrich and something scary is running by...

You know, they did a study over a period of decades involving tens of thousands of ostriches, and they concluded that no ostrich had ever buried his head in the sand or even attempted to. Fun fact for you.

They who? Do you have a reference? How dare you just up and challenge established wisdom like that? Can't you see that justroberto has 50 posts and... oh, never mind. He must be a know nothing n00b.


hiyapokey


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Ostriches appear to bury their heads in the sand because they are digging looking for water. Noobs are not killing the sport. We are all safely online talking about how Noobs are killing the sport.


ctucker


May 3, 2007, 4:32 PM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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The goal of any noob should be to kill your sport and make it their own. Our sport my ass. Every noob is just the next generation of climbers to make the previous one nervous.


suzie_cuzie


May 3, 2007, 9:24 PM
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Re: [the_leech] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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the_leech wrote:
suzie_cuzie wrote:
healyje wrote:
Ya gotta love Dingus though - he's a real man among trolls...

Really? I kinda thought this one was sub-par...No offense to Dingus, but there just wasn't that certain je-ne-sais-quois that a truly good troll has.

I disagree. Although not particularly original, it's a strong troll.

First, he used his older, respected username with 7,000+ posts to give the thread legitimacy. Then, he broached an inflammatory topic in a non-threatening manner without leveling any direct accusations. This approach is sophisticated – it draws out passionate and indignant responses without resorting to the effective but simplistic aggro in-your-face opening post. Last (and this is what did it for me), he used an erudite reference and “horseshit” in the same sentence. That adds the necessary “je ne sais quoi,” as far as I’m concerned.

But we all have our own preferences for troll styling.

Preferences, maybe. But I think it's in irrefutable fact that a good troll requires not only volume of responses, but also sincerity and some rabid flaming.

Dingus has the first and second, but no one has been really enraged by his seemingly benign post yet. And that is an absolute requirement for a truly great troll.


shanz


May 3, 2007, 10:03 PM
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Re: [suzie_cuzie] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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heh spare me the rethoric --- we are just but mere pawns in the originators of the game we have come to love - let go of your own lack of originality and search for some testicular fortitude -- place a piece and quit being a pussy all of your life


the_leech


May 3, 2007, 10:07 PM
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Re: [suzie_cuzie] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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suzie_cuzie wrote:
the_leech wrote:
...But we all have our own preferences for troll styling.

Preferences, maybe. But I think it's in irrefutable fact that a good troll requires not only volume of responses, but also sincerity and some rabid flaming.

Dingus has the first and second, but no one has been really enraged by his seemingly benign post yet. And that is an absolute requirement for a truly great troll.

For me, it’s all about the hook. It doesn’t matter if the replies are sincere, ignorant, friendly, self-righteous, agitated, or a complete flame-fest. Just knowing that they bit the hook is what makes me happy. But I’ll admit, the indignant and the angry posters are generally the most fun to play with.


rockclimbchar


May 4, 2007, 7:51 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
rockclimbchar wrote:
Commercialized "image" opposed to the more realistic hard core, intimate circle "image" of climbing.

The 'core' climber IS the image they sell.

In reply to:
"Image" can come dangerously close to "Ego".

Ah there's that dreaded word ego. But for ego El Cap would never have been climbed.

In reply to:
If I let my ego get in the way then I would have quit climbing a long time ago since I am not climbing 5.12's yet considering how long I have been climbing.

Who said anything about an ego getting in the way? Ego is the fuel of climbing's competitive fire.


There are more than one definitions for "Ego". I believe the one you are referring to when using the word "ego" is: "the element of being that consciously and continuously enables an individual to think, feel, and act." The definition I am referring to when using the word "ego" is: "conceit" - "an exaggerated opinion of one's ability, importance, etc." These definitions are from The World Book Encyclopedia. These two differences in the use of the word "ego" could definitely cause a misinterpretation of my posting. If you are using the first definition I quoted, I agree. However, it isn't the definition I was trying to portray. Also, there is a lot more to my posting/ reply than just about egos.


(This post was edited by rockclimbchar on May 4, 2007, 7:56 AM)


dingus


May 4, 2007, 8:00 AM
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Re: [rockclimbchar] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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OK char I'll go with yours. I still maintain that ego is the core of great climbing accomplishments. When Messner decided to solo Everest I think his ego was in overdrive. But look at the result!

DMT


skinnyclimber


May 4, 2007, 8:04 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
OK char I'll go with yours. I still maintain that ego is the core of great climbing accomplishments. When Messner decided to solo Everest I think his ego was in overdrive. But look at the result!

DMT

I don't think that being driven by your ego to do great things is necessarily bad. I do think that being driven by your ego to be an asshole wanker jerk is bad, but hey, that's just my opinion. And maybe it's because my ego hasn't yet driven me to do anything "great" about which I need to spray.


rhythm164


May 4, 2007, 8:16 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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i love that the Tragedy of the Commons was just referenced on this website


dingus


May 4, 2007, 8:33 AM
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Re: [skinnyclimber] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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skinnyclimber wrote:
dingus wrote:
OK char I'll go with yours. I still maintain that ego is the core of great climbing accomplishments. When Messner decided to solo Everest I think his ego was in overdrive. But look at the result!

DMT

I don't think that being driven by your ego to do great things is necessarily bad.

Yes that's my whole point. We have this negative connotation of ego. Yes our egos can drive us to do stupid things to gratify our self-perceived images. They can also drive us to do great things, like bold climbs no one before had the necessary.... ego... to tackle.

DMT


dingus


May 4, 2007, 8:36 AM
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Re: [rhythm164] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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rhythm164 wrote:
i love that the Tragedy of the Commons was just referenced on this website

I think if more noobs knew what it meant I would have counted a lot more coup.

DMT


tanner


May 4, 2007, 9:02 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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I'm 24 so I would have started climbing in its "popular" era

I learned the ropes in squamish for a much older climber. I learned all the ethics as I set up my first TR.

I think thats important!!!! Take noobs under you wing at the crag. Explane why that crack has no bolts. Why the first assentists style is important and why chipping is bad.

Mybe rather than bitching about new climbers. Show them what its all about. Make them 'desiples'

or Keep bitching
And some day you will read from you rocking chair that some one rapbolted the Nose as a sport route. And that the goverment banned Trad climbing because of its risks with full suport of the climbing community.


mturner


May 4, 2007, 9:33 AM
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Re: [GeneralBenson] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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GeneralBenson wrote:
It's really hard to find an A-hole climber.

You're new to this site huh?


jdouble


May 4, 2007, 9:49 AM
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This thread is killing our sport.


coach_kyle


May 4, 2007, 10:21 AM
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Is it in some way unethical to have a full time job and still enjoy participating in a sport? Is it an insult to people who don't have full time jobs and enjoy the same sport?


majid_sabet


May 4, 2007, 10:27 AM
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Re: [jdouble] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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n00bs have no respect for older climbers once they learn a few knots (They still can't tie butterfly).

Let's ship all these n00bs to Thailand permanently. Ship their magazine editor as well .


codhands


May 4, 2007, 10:36 AM
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When nOObs are outlawed, only outlaws will be nOObs. Think about it.....


the_leech


May 4, 2007, 12:23 PM
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Re: [rhythm164] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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rhythm164 wrote:
i love that the Tragedy of the Commons was just referenced on this website

It works on so many levels...


Partner oldsalt


May 4, 2007, 1:56 PM
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Re: [the_leech] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Re: The Tragedy of the Commons...

As literate as I might be, this was a new reference to me. Now that I have reviewed it, I am trying to reconcile the concept to climbing.

Aside from those Commons that apply to us all, such as clean air and water, what are the climbing-specific Commons?

I propose that these include at least Access, Natural State, and Overcrowding.

Access should be obvious, evidenced by the benefits of supporting the Access Fund. While probably not obvious to a Noob, they will quickly discover that access issues are important and may be complicated.

Climbers destroying vegetation, damaging fences, or failing to Leave No Trace, leads to the loss of Access to our particular Commons of crags.

Responsible climbers enjoy and appreciate being in the Natural State. Other threads have discussed view pollution caused by development of green lands within the view of a crag. I can deal with that.

Damage to the Natural State can be best understood by example. You arrive at the parking lot of Sandrock, with a magnificent view of a large lake and a small town below the cliff line. Turning to the nearby boulders, you find that Joyce loves Bob and that the local thrill must involve how many beer bottles can be broken in one night.

Vandalism creates a major problem for climbers, even when it is done by the Sigma Nu fraternity letting off some steam at Mt. Yonah. If these Snakes can climb anything higher than a bar stool, I would be amazed. We climb at Mt. Yonah under the good auspices of the US Army Rangers. A closure there would impact all of us.

I won't get into bolting here, because I still do more sport than gear climbing and I appreciate having bolts out there.

Overcrowding is probably a fact of life for most of us. Too many climbers cuts down the number of routes that can be done in a day. If a certain percentage of us are idiots, ten times the number of climbers means that at least 10 times that number of idiots are out there.

We prefer to avoid crowds for aesthic reasons, but crowds also lead to problems of Access and Natural State. Hence the interest in a thread about Noobs. An uneducated Noob may damage our efforts to gain or maintain Access by damaging the Natural State. Fewer Noobs means a reduced tendency toward Overcrowding. Although we were all once Noobs, now that we are not we must look upon Them with suspicion, fear, and loathing.

The best way to deal with Noobs, IMHO, is to teach them how to belay safely, to Leave No Trace, to respect the rights of others, especially property owners, etc., etc. Embrace them for their safety and our continued freedom to climb.

Finally, I consider getting spanked by the denizens of RC.com to be part of a Noob's education.


kenyakiki


May 4, 2007, 2:41 PM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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As someone who has only climbed for a season I would have to say that I do not feel like I am killing your sport!!! Since when did climbing become territorial? Is this a Hawaiian surfing forum?

For heaven sakes I have skied for 23 years and yeah it sucks when some gaper hikes out where he has no business being, but they are not killing skiing. If anything the new people are keeping the sport alive. Embrace it! make money off it! laugh at it. have fun with it! Unless you are some sort of climbing God who came out of the womb with a carabiner in one hand and a harness already on...You were new to climbing once too! Try remembering what it was like!
In reply to:


bent_gate


May 4, 2007, 3:06 PM
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Re: [the_leech] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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the_leech wrote:
suzie_cuzie wrote:
the_leech wrote:
...But we all have our own preferences for troll styling.

Preferences, maybe. But I think it's in irrefutable fact that a good troll requires not only volume of responses, but also sincerity and some rabid flaming.

Dingus has the first and second, but no one has been really enraged by his seemingly benign post yet. And that is an absolute requirement for a truly great troll.

For me, it’s all about the hook. It doesn’t matter if the replies are sincere, ignorant, friendly, self-righteous, agitated, or a complete flame-fest. Just knowing that they bit the hook is what makes me happy. But I’ll admit, the indignant and the angry posters are generally the most fun to play with.

Allow me to summarize to date: Multiple lines. Baited but barbless hooks (for more expeditious catch and release). Just too tasty to pass up!



Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!


axelvanettinger


May 4, 2007, 3:28 PM
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Somewhere i read about n00bs who can't climb multi pitch. now I'm a n00b myself and live in Europe the low- flat- holland. It says enough doesn't it. The only way i can climb is go to a gym or go to belgium. Now in belgium most routes are single pitch. so i can't learn multi pitch. I would like to learn it badly. the only problem is there is no climber prepaired to learn it to me because they are too busy with their own stuff. And they say i need to do a course. Now i don't have the money to do such a course, aprox. €300 ( $ 400), and it takes a whole weekend. while a hardend climber can learn me faster and isn't time bound. So all climbers who live in a area where you see climbers, try to help them if they wanna learn something. That way the people who doesn't like it will go away faster, and the people who are very intrested in it will make less mistakes, and that way there will be less n00bs so this nonsense threads don't have to pop out of the keyboard anymore. U all nag about things that are out of reach for me. So Shut the F Up, about irritating noobs and stuffLaugh


bent_gate


May 4, 2007, 3:41 PM
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Re: [axelvanettinger] Re:Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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axelvanettinger wrote:
...Now i don't have the money to do such a course, aprox. €300 ( $ 400), and it takes a whole weekend. while a hardend climber can learn me faster and isn't time bound...

Well be careful of what you ask for... Dingus will learn you right quick!Shocked


GeneralBenson


May 4, 2007, 3:59 PM
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Re: [mturner] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Indeed I am new to this site, but hardly new to the world of forum trolls. Of course it's easy to find a-hole climbers online. Everyone is an a-hole online. It's the ultimate stage for people who lack the nuts in the real world; digital balls are just as mighty. The internet is full of reasonably young know it alls (myself included). The chances are that most of the people on this board are too young to call this 'our' sport. *puts on flame suit* But in the real world, from my experience, climbers are really cool, down to earth, people; I hope that doesn't change.


kenyakiki


May 4, 2007, 5:07 PM
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Re: [PuShIt] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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PuShIt wrote:
dingus wrote:
WildMountainHighsUnite wrote:
EGO IS KILLING OUR SPORT!! ---beware of yourself.

Ego is the BASIS of our sport mate!

DMT

Obviously it is for you.
I can't relate---my BASIS is the rock and ice!

The problem with this world is that so many people think they are better than others. Thats crap! You may be better at somethings but get of your high horse and take a look in the mirror... elite people with Ego are killing this sport


soillclimber


May 4, 2007, 5:57 PM
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Just trying to link a photo.


oh shit that looks like a failed braze!!!
Check injuries and accidents...souders groundfall post


Power_Tie


May 4, 2007, 11:49 PM
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Many of these so called climbers have very poor attitudes. I'll wager this dingus character is one of those skinny gym punks that I commonly see at the rock climbing gym.


suzie_cuzie


May 5, 2007, 12:33 AM
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Power_Tie wrote:
Many of these so called climbers have very poor attitudes. I'll wager this dingus character is one of those skinny gym punks that I commonly see at the rock climbing gym.

Yeah. He's the one who only belays girls with nice asses.


axelvanettinger


May 5, 2007, 6:33 AM
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bent_gate wrote:
axelvanettinger wrote:
...Now i don't have the money to do such a course, aprox. €300 ( $ 400), and it takes a whole weekend. while a hardend climber can learn me faster and isn't time bound...

Well be careful of what you ask for... Dingus will learn you right quick!Shocked

Well let him come to europe then, lots of nice asses here!! And then he can learn me stuff... I'll buy him a beer if he teaches me all!Wink


rockclimbchar


May 5, 2007, 5:39 PM
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Re: [tanner] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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tanner wrote:
Take noobs under you wing at the crag. Explane why that crack has no bolts. Why the first assentists style is important and why chipping is bad.

Mybe rather than bitching about new climbers. Show them what its all about. Make them 'desiples'

or Keep bitching
And some day you will read from you rocking chair that some one rapbolted the Nose as a sport route. And that the goverment banned Trad climbing because of its risks with full suport of the climbing community.

That is a more accurate description of some of what my original posting was trying to say. So for everyone hung up on the word "ego" (which I provided the different definitions for); get over it! Read my original posting, get past the word "ego" and get the real message/ point.

And it seems like "dingus" is having way too much fun with this thread. Do you ever climb or just play on the computer? Yes, I have posted about 3 times on this thread but "dingus", you are going nuts with this. Give it a rest everyone, go out and climb. The weather is great and just get back to the core of what climbing and the climbing community is all about. This is just turning into a major bullshitting thread. Someone said "this thread is killing our sport". Right on with that one!


the_leech


May 5, 2007, 5:58 PM
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rockclimbchar wrote:
That is a more accurate description of some of what my original posting was trying to say. So for everyone hung up on the word "ego" (which I provided the different definitions for); get over it! Read my original posting, get past the word "ego" and get the real message/ point.

And it seems like "dingus" is having way too much fun with this thread. Do you ever climb or just play on the computer? Yes, I have posted about 3 times on this thread but "dingus", you are going nuts with this. Give it a rest everyone, go out and climb. The weather is great and just get back to the core of what climbing and the climbing community is all about. This is just turning into a major bullshitting thread. Someone said "this thread is killing our sport". Right on with that one!

You are a very annoying person. Please go away.

That is all I have to say.


rockclimbchar


May 5, 2007, 6:34 PM
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the_leech wrote:
rockclimbchar wrote:
That is a more accurate description of some of what my original posting was trying to say. So for everyone hung up on the word "ego" (which I provided the different definitions for); get over it! Read my original posting, get past the word "ego" and get the real message/ point.

And it seems like "dingus" is having way too much fun with this thread. Do you ever climb or just play on the computer? Yes, I have posted about 3 times on this thread but "dingus", you are going nuts with this. Give it a rest everyone, go out and climb. The weather is great and just get back to the core of what climbing and the climbing community is all about. This is just turning into a major bullshitting thread. Someone said "this thread is killing our sport". Right on with that one!

You are a very annoying person. Please go away.

That is all I have to say.

You seemed to be having fun with everyone's postings. A sort of entertainment for you as indicated in your past postings. Doesn't matter, you and this thread are annoying me just as much as I seem to be annoying you. I did not plan to continue with this thread but had to respond to this last one because of your sudden change in mood regarding this "entertaining thread". At first this thread brought about some valid issues. Now it is just a "gossip" and "bitching" column. And I have actually successfully annoyed you. That wasn't too difficult but I'll let you off the hook. I think I am getting "endless thread headache syndrome". Besides I need to get some sleep so I can be ready to go out climbing tomorrow and be on the lookout for all those threatening Noobs.

I'm done and quite relieved (of course to your satisfaction and mine as well, your welcome by the way).

That is all I have to say.Wink


dingus


May 6, 2007, 5:50 AM
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rockclimbchar wrote:
And it seems like "dingus" is having way too much fun with this thread. Do you ever climb or just play on the computer? Yes, I have posted about 3 times on this thread but "dingus", you are going nuts with this.

You have a huge ego my friend. Get help.

DMT


bobruef


May 6, 2007, 9:00 AM
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rockclimbchar wrote:
dingus wrote:
rockclimbchar wrote:
Commercialized "image" opposed to the more realistic hard core, intimate circle "image" of climbing.

The 'core' climber IS the image they sell.

In reply to:
"Image" can come dangerously close to "Ego".

Ah there's that dreaded word ego. But for ego El Cap would never have been climbed.

In reply to:
If I let my ego get in the way then I would have quit climbing a long time ago since I am not climbing 5.12's yet considering how long I have been climbing.

Who said anything about an ego getting in the way? Ego is the fuel of climbing's competitive fire.


There are more than one definitions for "Ego". I believe the one you are referring to when using the word "ego" is: "the element of being that consciously and continuously enables an individual to think, feel, and act." The definition I am referring to when using the word "ego" is: "conceit" - "an exaggerated opinion of one's ability, importance, etc." These definitions are from The World Book Encyclopedia. These two differences in the use of the word "ego" could definitely cause a misinterpretation of my posting. If you are using the first definition I quoted, I agree. However, it isn't the definition I was trying to portray. Also, there is a lot more to my posting/ reply than just about egos.

Interesting, I'd say more of my success in climbing, and in other endeavors come from your second definition. Dingus is right, Ego makes the world go round.


deane


May 6, 2007, 9:06 AM
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The thing that strikes me as at least a little bit funny is the fact that such a question would appear on a MASSIVE internet community that encourages everyone to try climbing. Shouldn't you be complaining about "N00BS" in some secret backcountry elitist hideaway rather than the internet? Just a thought...


bobruef


May 6, 2007, 9:11 AM
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kenyakiki wrote:
PuShIt wrote:
dingus wrote:
WildMountainHighsUnite wrote:
EGO IS KILLING OUR SPORT!! ---beware of yourself.

Ego is the BASIS of our sport mate!

DMT

Obviously it is for you.
I can't relate---my BASIS is the rock and ice!

The problem with this world is that so many people think they are better than others. Thats crap! You may be better at somethings but get of your high horse and take a look in the mirror... elite people with Ego are killing this sport

Yeah, but you people with no sense of self-worth or self esteem are borring. Cool

I refuse to get off my horse because it's higher than yours. I got the big horse because I liked it, I guess I wasn't really worried about you people w/ little ponies feeling bad.


(This post was edited by bobruef on May 6, 2007, 9:12 AM)


bobruef


May 6, 2007, 9:19 AM
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rockclimbchar wrote:
the_leech wrote:
You are a very annoying person. Please go away.

That is all I have to say.

You seemed to be having fun with everyone's postings. A sort of entertainment for you as indicated in your past postings. Doesn't matter, you and this thread are annoying me just as much as I seem to be annoying you. I did not plan to continue with this thread but had to respond to this last one because of your sudden change in mood regarding this "entertaining thread". At first this thread brought about some valid issues. Now it is just a "gossip" and "bitching" column. And I have actually successfully annoyed you. That wasn't too difficult but I'll let you off the hook. I think I am getting "endless thread headache syndrome". Besides I need to get some sleep so I can be ready to go out climbing tomorrow and be on the lookout for all those threatening Noobs.

I'm done and quite relieved (of course to your satisfaction and mine as well, your welcome by the way).

That is all I have to say.Wink


bobruef


May 6, 2007, 9:20 AM
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dingus wrote:
rockclimbchar wrote:
And it seems like "dingus" is having way too much fun with this thread. Do you ever climb or just play on the computer? Yes, I have posted about 3 times on this thread but "dingus", you are going nuts with this.

You have a huge ego my friend. Get help.

DMT

It sure was a borring Sunday at work until I stumbled on your thread, Dingus. Laugh


(This post was edited by bobruef on May 6, 2007, 3:15 PM)


stymingersfink


May 6, 2007, 2:22 PM
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rockclimbchar wrote:
... I'll let you off the hook...
i think your perception of who hooked who might be clouded by your ego


the_leech


May 6, 2007, 3:19 PM
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stymingersfink wrote:
rockclimbchar wrote:
... I'll let you off the hook...
i think your perception of who hooked who might be clouded by your ego

That, and a complete lack of critical thinking skills, intelligence and insight. But mostly clouded by her ego.


stymingersfink


May 6, 2007, 3:25 PM
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...and a good day to you, sir!


interesting thread, I'm glad to have stumbled upon it. I nearly didn't click the thread, but since it was a Dingus post I couldn't resist. I must say, I appreciate the opportunity to sit at the feet of masters such as yourself and DMT. Perhaps one day my troll-ability might ascend to even 1/2 of the skill shown here...

I guess we all need to dream.Cool


dingus


May 6, 2007, 3:45 PM
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deane wrote:
The thing that strikes me as at least a little bit funny is the fact that such a question would appear on a MASSIVE internet community that encourages everyone to try climbing. Shouldn't you be complaining about "N00BS" in some secret backcountry elitist hideaway rather than the internet? Just a thought...

They already know.

DMT


arikdurfee


May 6, 2007, 4:45 PM
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It's fascinating how much response this question has generated, especially considering that the question doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

First of all, who gets to decide the definition of noob (and do you have to type it n00b in order for it to be correct)? I've been climbing for years and I still don't think I can do anything over a 5.11. Does that make me a nOOb/NOOB/noob? And I don't like taking huge risks when climbing, mostly becuase I've got a wife and daughter to take care of. Does that make me a noob? Clarification on the term would be helpful.

And second of all, what exactly do you mean by "killing our sport"? Who gets to be included in the elusive "we" that apparently owns the sport? And more importantly, how exactly is the sport being killed?

If by "killing the sport" you mean that more people are climbing now so you can't feel quite as cool about yourself for knowing the meaning of terms like "redpoint" and "friction traverse" because now everybody knows them, then I'd say "killing the sport" is nothing more than a healthy ego-check.

If by "killing the sport" you mean people disrespecting nature by leaving trash and ruining trails and what not, then it's obviously not noobs ruining the sport; it's jerks. It's the same jerks that drop cigarettes into the snow from a ski lift and think there's nothing wrong with that.

If by "killing the sport" you mean people doing stupid things and getting themselves hurt and giving climbing a bad name, the only result I see there is less climbing by so-called noobs. People are going to be idiots no matter what anyone else says.

If by "killing the sport" you mean ruining access for everyone else, I hate to break it to you but access issues haven't exactly sprung up in the last ten years. In fact, in some places, it's getting a lot better. Castle Rocks, right next to the City of Rocks in southern Idaho, had access issues for years and has recently been opened and turned into Idaho's newest State Park.

If by "killing the sport" you mean people placing more permanent protection, then I think you mean furthering the "sport" and "killing the trad", and by "killing the trad" you could only mean making it so trad climbers have the occasional inconvenience of actually seeing a bolt in a wall. But that's just a matter of preference.

If by "killing the sport" you mean the systematic killing of all of the people who climb, I'm not sure that's happening. And I don't think noobs could pull it off. I think you'd need a group of well trained snipers for that.

Really, I'm not seeing any evidence of the sport being "killed" meaning that people are no longer enjoying the beauty of nature and pushing their bodies to do tough things just for the satisfaction of having accomplished it. I think that sport is alive and well and under no threat of being killed. And really, the sport isn't as mainstream popular as it was 10 years ago. The word "extreme" became really hip for a few years, but that has died down recently, so I don't think the sport of climbing has anything to worry about.


PS - Bravo on coming up with a such an effective discussion prompt.


stymingersfink


May 6, 2007, 5:32 PM
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arikdurfee wrote:
If by "killing the sport" you mean the systematic killing of all of the people who climb, I'm not sure that's happening. And I don't think noobs could pull it off. I think you'd need a group of well trained snipers for that.
you have obviously missed the attempted infiltration by Marine Snipers which has been going on in these parts lately. It's like tequila I tell ya... it starts with one, then there's two, next thing you know you wake up the next morning lying in the neighbors driveway surrounded by a puddle of your own vomit and nursing a splitting headache!


rockclimbchar


May 7, 2007, 5:25 AM
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the_leech wrote:
stymingersfink wrote:
rockclimbchar wrote:
... I'll let you off the hook...
i think your perception of who hooked who might be clouded by your ego

That, and a complete lack of critical thinking skills, intelligence and insight. But mostly clouded by her ego.

Ouch, I must start therapy first thing tomorrow!Shocked And thanks for the wake up call, I really needed it. Wink


ebonezercabbage


May 7, 2007, 6:02 AM
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Absurd question.....Ok, so an influx of noobs...so what? first of all, they can't kill the sport, they do exactly the oposite: more people, means a sustained future. If there were no noobs, then the only people to ever climb again would be those who are currently living. Duh.


Also,

climbing is a lifestyle in many ways for the hardest core of us out there. That will never change. The rest climb because its fun and enjoy it, not because they are trying to stand for something or want to change their way of life (as is their choice ). But the good thing is that for those that are standing for something, or want to accomplish something bigger than themselves ( say, create a national park, or something along those lines ) many more noobs means a hell of a lot more signatures on ur petition or more calls to ur congressman, etc.


I think the true killers of this sport may turn out to be those who look/talk down to noobs, and try to keep them out of the "society". F-that. Sooner or later, there will be more of them than of you and suddenly, they are the ones keeping you out.


Come on ppl. Why ask such stupid questions?


dingus


May 7, 2007, 6:22 AM
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arikdurfee wrote:
It's fascinating how much response this question has generated, especially considering that the question doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Lemme break it down for you!

In reply to:
First of all, who gets to decide the definition of noob

I said so in the OP dude - dirtbaggers and the elite. WHO ELSE????

In reply to:
I've been climbing for years and I still don't think I can do anything over a 5.11. Does that make me a nOOb/NOOB/noob? And I don't like taking huge risks when climbing, mostly becuase I've got a wife and daughter to take care of. Does that make me a noob?

No and no.

In reply to:
And second of all, what exactly do you mean by "killing our sport"?

The King is dead, long live the King, capice?

In reply to:
Who gets to be included in the elusive "we" that apparently owns the sport?

Its a self-actualization process. You'll know it when you arrive.

In reply to:
And more importantly, how exactly is the sport being killed?

How? With bolts and cams and a ton of shiny gear ande hordes and hordes of follow-the-leaders, trampling the once green grass of our sport.

Here's the tricky part..... (I'll use local reference to illustrate the point).... the Stonemasters of Yosemite 70s fame KILLED the Robbins era sport of climbing, KILT IT DEAD. Just as Robbins boys KILT the sport before them.

In reply to:
If by "killing the sport"...
In reply to:
If by "killing the sport"...
In reply to:
If by "killing the sport"...
In reply to:
If by "killing the sport"...
In reply to:
If by "killing the sport"...
In reply to:
If by "killing the sport"...

In reply to:
PS - Bravo on coming up with a such an effective discussion prompt.

Yer in the deep end of the pool here matie!

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on May 7, 2007, 6:26 AM)


rockclimbchar


May 7, 2007, 6:40 AM
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ebonezercabbage wrote:
Absurd question.....Ok, so an influx of noobs...so what? first of all, they can't kill the sport, they do exactly the oposite: more people, means a sustained future. If there were no noobs, then the only people to ever climb again would be those who are currently living. Duh.


Also,

climbing is a lifestyle in many ways for the hardest core of us out there. That will never change. The rest climb because its fun and enjoy it, not because they are trying to stand for something or want to change their way of life (as is their choice ). But the good thing is that for those that are standing for something, or want to accomplish something bigger than themselves ( say, create a national park, or something along those lines ) many more noobs means a hell of a lot more signatures on ur petition or more calls to ur congressman, etc.


I think the true killers of this sport may turn out to be those who look/talk down to noobs, and try to keep them out of the "society". F-that. Sooner or later, there will be more of them than of you and suddenly, they are the ones keeping you out.


Come on ppl. Why ask such stupid questions?

Very well put. I definitely agree. Did you read my initial posting? I unknowingly (at the time) made a dreadful mistake of using an incredibly controversial word "ego" and really lit a fire under some people. Why did I even reply to them???? That was really idiotic of me. Oh well, it gave them some free entertainment by messing with me. I'm done with this crap. You are right, it was a stupid question. I should have just left it alone with my first posting. My first time following a thread like this. Lesson learned the hard way. I am soooo humbled.Blush I liked what you said. I'm glad somebody was able to get to the point. I unfortunately diverted away from the point. Again, I am humbled. My intentions were goodAngelic, I am new to this (following and participating in a thread) and being naive about it, well...... whatever, The End. Smile


dingus


May 7, 2007, 7:05 AM
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Then again it could be you're just wrong as you can be about ego and major climbing accomplishments.

DMT


bobruef


May 7, 2007, 7:57 AM
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rockclimbchar wrote:
ebonezercabbage wrote:
Absurd question.....Ok, so an influx of noobs...so what? first of all, they can't kill the sport, they do exactly the oposite: more people, means a sustained future. If there were no noobs, then the only people to ever climb again would be those who are currently living. Duh.


Also,

climbing is a lifestyle in many ways for the hardest core of us out there. That will never change. The rest climb because its fun and enjoy it, not because they are trying to stand for something or want to change their way of life (as is their choice ). But the good thing is that for those that are standing for something, or want to accomplish something bigger than themselves ( say, create a national park, or something along those lines ) many more noobs means a hell of a lot more signatures on ur petition or more calls to ur congressman, etc.


I think the true killers of this sport may turn out to be those who look/talk down to noobs, and try to keep them out of the "society". F-that. Sooner or later, there will be more of them than of you and suddenly, they are the ones keeping you out.


Come on ppl. Why ask such stupid questions?

Very well put. I definitely agree. Did you read my initial posting? I unknowingly (at the time) made a dreadful mistake of using an incredibly controversial word "ego" and really lit a fire under some people. Why did I even reply to them???? That was really idiotic of me. Oh well, it gave them some free entertainment by messing with me. I'm done with this crap. You are right, it was a stupid question. I should have just left it alone with my first posting. My first time following a thread like this. Lesson learned the hard way. I am soooo humbled.Blush I liked what you said. I'm glad somebody was able to get to the point. I unfortunately diverted away from the point. Again, I am humbled. My intentions were goodAngelic, I am new to this (following and participating in a thread) and being naive about it, well...... whatever, The End. Smile

Holy massive ego batman! 6 words in reference to the post you quoted and ~147 to talking about yourself. Shocked


shockabuku


May 7, 2007, 8:17 AM
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rockclimbchar wrote:
ebonezercabbage wrote:
Absurd question.....Ok, so an influx of noobs...so what? first of all, they can't kill the sport, they do exactly the oposite: more people, means a sustained future. If there were no noobs, then the only people to ever climb again would be those who are currently living. Duh.


Also,

climbing is a lifestyle in many ways for the hardest core of us out there. That will never change. The rest climb because its fun and enjoy it, not because they are trying to stand for something or want to change their way of life (as is their choice ). But the good thing is that for those that are standing for something, or want to accomplish something bigger than themselves ( say, create a national park, or something along those lines ) many more noobs means a hell of a lot more signatures on ur petition or more calls to ur congressman, etc.


I think the true killers of this sport may turn out to be those who look/talk down to noobs, and try to keep them out of the "society". F-that. Sooner or later, there will be more of them than of you and suddenly, they are the ones keeping you out.


Come on ppl. Why ask such stupid questions?

Very well put. I definitely agree. Did you read my initial posting? I unknowingly (at the time) made a dreadful mistake of using an incredibly controversial word "ego" and really lit a fire under some people. Why did I even reply to them???? That was really idiotic of me. Oh well, it gave them some free entertainment by messing with me. I'm done with this crap. You are right, it was a stupid question. I should have just left it alone with my first posting. My first time following a thread like this. Lesson learned the hard way. I am soooo humbled.Blush I liked what you said. I'm glad somebody was able to get to the point. I unfortunately diverted away from the point. Again, I am humbled. My intentions were goodAngelic, I am new to this (following and participating in a thread) and being naive about it, well...... whatever, The End. Smile

You can't quit, can you? You're just biting your nails trying not to reply to this aren't you? I'm trying to help you out here - the right answer is not to reply.


the_leech


May 7, 2007, 8:37 AM
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rockclimbchar wrote:
the_leech wrote:
stymingersfink wrote:
rockclimbchar wrote:
... I'll let you off the hook...
i think your perception of who hooked who might be clouded by your ego

That, and a complete lack of critical thinking skills, intelligence and insight. But mostly clouded by her ego.

Ouch, I must start therapy first thing tomorrow!Shocked And thanks for the wake up call, I really needed it. Wink

Therapy might help with your ego issues. Alas, all the therapy in the world cannot change your complete lack of critical thinking skills, intelligence and insight. You're stuck with that for good. Do you understand?


kenyakiki


May 7, 2007, 10:12 AM
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Oh your horse is bigger than mine. I think you are trying to compensate for your less that adequate penis size!

So Mr. napoleon complex... I suggest you get over that high and mighty attitude and realize that people with the "little ponies" have the numbers!


bobruef


May 7, 2007, 11:58 AM
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kenyakiki wrote:
Oh your horse is bigger than mine. I think you are trying to compensate for your less that adequate penis size!

So Mr. napoleon complex... I suggest you get over that high and mighty attitude and realize that people with the "little ponies" have the numbers!

Ahh, the masses of the world will always begrudge the proud for their success, won't they? First, you ask me to tone my self esteem and achievement down to your level by getting down from my high horse, and now you're trying to trick me into it by making jokes about my penis size! Blush Well, I'm not coming down. I like it up here. I'll not be tricked into lowering myself to pleasure you, or your masses.

You kids and your ponies may have the numbers, but the nubers happen to also be where "average", "mediocre", and "ordinary" find their home. Seeking company amongst the masses is to invite stagnation. I think I'll be content keeping myself and my steed to a higher standard.Tongue

So, please, spare us your pedestrian humor and conformist attitude. And stop being ashamed of your ego!


(This post was edited by bobruef on May 7, 2007, 2:06 PM)


richardvg03


May 7, 2007, 3:13 PM
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codhands wrote:
When nOObs are outlawed, only outlaws will be nOObs. Think about it.....

Ya man I HATE noobs! I mean you'd think it'd be better if I taught them something to help them out and help the sport out but enstead I'm going to climb and glare at them and pout because new people want to enjoy something I enjoy! How dare them! HAVE THEY NO RESPECT?!!! I bet some of them even think a home depot carabiner would work! Worthless!!

I wish nobody except for me would climb!!! That way all the rock climbing companies would make gear JUST for ME!! ME!! ME!!

Tongue


richardvg03


May 7, 2007, 3:23 PM
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stymingersfink wrote:
you have obviously missed the attempted infiltration by Marine Snipers which has been going on in these parts lately. It's like tequila I tell ya... it starts with one, then there's two, next thing you know you wake up the next morning lying in the neighbors driveway surrounded by a puddle of your own vomit and nursing a splitting headache!

HAHAHAHA attempted???? please... I'm behind enemy lines already!!


stymingersfink


May 7, 2007, 3:43 PM
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Re: [richardvg03] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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i've wondered how long it would take you to post outside the beginners forum.

i guess maybe this n00b's starting to grow on me a bit.Tongue i don't speak for the others though.Cooldelighted laugh escapes my lips as I finish reading the new posts to this thread only to come across the_leech's freshly baited hook. best of luck, leech... it's catch and release, but not unheard of to catch the same fish twice.


(This post was edited by stymingersfink on May 7, 2007, 3:56 PM)


Tania


May 9, 2007, 3:53 PM
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Re: [overlord] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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overlord wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
Its more than just length of time at the sport. Its experiance, passion, deisre to learn, among other things, that lift a person above n00b status.

ditto that.

and its not the noobs who are killing the sport, its the stupid noobs.

Double Ditto that Wink
"Noobs" not killing it. It has been said but I will say it again- I have taken many friends climbing and they really dont appreciate it as much as I do. Climbers, noob or not all have the passion in common.


azrockclimber


May 10, 2007, 5:03 AM
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Re: [urbanpioneer] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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urbanpioneer wrote:
Being a nOOb isn't related to the time you've been climbing but the attitude you bring to climbing. If you're climbing .12d and shouting like an asshole but bring your crashpad to sit around on while your dog shits all over the crag you're still a nOOb as far as I'm concerned.


LOL.... I have met a few people like that.... what a pain... and honestly, I hated that they climbed harder than me.... It felt like they didn't deserve it. haha


svilnit


May 10, 2007, 5:36 AM
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Re: [kenyakiki] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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kenyakiki wrote:
Oh your horse is bigger than mine. I think you are trying to compensate for your less that adequate penis size!

So Mr. napoleon complex... I suggest you get over that high and mighty attitude and realize that people with the "little ponies" have the numbers!

Notice it's all the people that have been on here just a short time that are completely up in arms. Everybody else is sitting back giggling to themselves while giving the pot a quick stir every now and then to keep the fun going.


Partner j_ung


May 10, 2007, 6:23 AM
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Re: [svilnit] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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svilnit wrote:
Notice it's all the people that have been on here just a short time that are completely up in arms. Everybody else is sitting back giggling to themselves while giving the pot a quick stir every now and then to keep the fun going.

Aye, the community has certainly co-opted the troll. Laugh


freezorburn


May 10, 2007, 7:01 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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richardvg03


May 10, 2007, 12:41 PM
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Re: [svilnit] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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svilnit wrote:

Notice it's all the people that have been on here just a short time that are completely up in arms. Everybody else is sitting back giggling to themselves while giving the pot a quick stir every now and then to keep the fun going.

I like to stir the pot often... but I'm still a noob ;)


svilnit


May 10, 2007, 1:02 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
svilnit wrote:
Notice it's all the people that have been on here just a short time that are completely up in arms. Everybody else is sitting back giggling to themselves while giving the pot a quick stir every now and then to keep the fun going.

Aye, the community has certainly co-opted the troll. Laugh

"the leech" when we put Dingus in the record books for this one there should be a footnote that it was a "community assisted troll"


the_leech


May 10, 2007, 2:50 PM
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Re: [svilnit] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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svilnit wrote:
"the leech" when we put Dingus in the record books for this one there should be a footnote that it was a "community assisted troll"

This is how all trolls should be. If we work together, our trolls will be so much better!

It takes a village...


Partner oldsalt


May 10, 2007, 8:36 PM
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Re: [the_leech] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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The Village - Aarghh!

It takes a little fooling around between consenting adults after all of the little n00bs have gone to bed to start a little troll.

After that, they are raised by their older cousins who have been around for awhile...


aln


May 11, 2007, 5:39 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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It could spoil your, or other peoples understanding or perception of the sport and what it means. But it's climbing up rocks, how can anyone spoil that?


svilnit


May 11, 2007, 6:09 AM
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Re: [oldsalt] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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oldsalt wrote:
The Village - Aarghh!

It takes a little fooling around between consenting adults after all of the little n00bs have gone to bed to start a little troll.

After that, they are raised by their older cousins who have been around for awhile...

Very true... very true..

It's amazing that they are keeping this thread alive though. Are they not reading the same thing we are?


johngenx


May 13, 2007, 9:36 AM
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Re: [svilnit] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so my comments are based on the first page and specifically the OP.

Noobs are not killing the sport. It's the elitist snobbery and downright asshole attitude of many climbers that degrades climbing. Instead of dismissing all new climbers, do as your predecessors did and find the ones that have the true passion and mentor them. Show them the ropes, literally.

The popularity of climbing rises and falls. Always has, and always will. Get used to it.

Without the noobs running out and buying all kinds of new shiny climbing gear, companies like BD, Grivel and so on would barely survive, much less have good budgets for R&D. Thos new products benefit all climbers, not just noobs.

Yes, it means crowded local crags. Climbing gyms packed every evening. But, if you're such a fuckin' hardman, what are doing at the sport crag or on plastic anyway? Is anyone saying the killer alpine routes and walls are packed with noobs? Get real.


(This post was edited by johngenx on May 13, 2007, 9:37 AM)


the_leech


May 13, 2007, 2:05 PM
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Re: [johngenx] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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johngenx wrote:
I haven't read all the posts in this thread...

Noooo... Really?!?

johngenx wrote:
Noobs are not killing the sport. It's the elitist snobbery and downright asshole attitude of many climbers... bla, bla, bla, etc, etc, etc, for a few more paragraphs...

And so the thread continues.


SamScott


May 13, 2007, 2:18 PM
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Re: [the_leech] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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No because this sport kills noobs.


crewdude


May 13, 2007, 2:59 PM
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Re: [SamScott] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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I love how in the real world, climbers are really nice and helpful and help new people without harassing them or making fun of them and then you come online and it's the polar opposite....

Kinda funny, if you're new and ask people in the real world simple questions they understand that you're new to the sport and sympathize, helping you because it makes them feel better.... and here people make fun of people for not knowing everything about a new sport the first few weeks that they do it.... as if as soon as you decide to rock climb someone gives you a manual on how to do it, common terms, and all of the basics....

some people on here are the least supportive people that I've seen online, which is funny considering I know a bunch of really good climbers (who don't spend all their time on the internet) and they all just support me as I move along and learn more and more.... but w/e....


notapplicable


May 13, 2007, 5:04 PM
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Re: [crewdude] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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crewdude wrote:
as if as soon as you decide to rock climb someone gives you a manual on how to do it, common terms, and all of the basics....

I agree with the sentiment that this sport is attracting more and more noobs all the time and the best way to deal with the situation is to offer support and help them get past the dangerous noob stage as fast as possible. If new people dont start climbing this sport would become stagnant but please respect the fact that climbing is not tennis and its not to be taken lightly.

One of the things that makes this sport great and allows its participants to take pride in being a climber is the necessity of self reliance and independence. There is a ton of lituature (online and off) that provide more than just a basic understanding of every facet of our sport and it is the responsibility of anyone who wants to take part in this sport to educate themselves. Read the books, practice breaking down anchors and lowering, learn how to use all types of belay devices in general do your part to become experienced and proficient in the vertical world.

In this sport lives are on the line and I dont feel that you should come to the crags if you arent motivated enough to learn as much as possible and prepare your self for the responsibilities of being one half of a partnership. There are valuable lessens that you should not learn on your own but people have to understrand that it is frustrateing to see people comeing to this sport wanting to have there hands held when self reliance and trust between partners is at the core of climbing.

Think of it this way, would you bother to teach someone the subtleties of paceing or any other "trick of the trade" that allowes a person to thrive in the sport of long distance running if they arent motivated enough to get in shape and establish a level of conditioning that would make them able to participate in the sport to start with. I have taught people how to climb in the past and will teach others in the future but only people who are willing to do as much as possible to steepen there own learning curve.


stymingersfink


May 13, 2007, 5:12 PM
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Re: [oldsalt] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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oldsalt wrote:
The Village - Aarghh!

It takes a little fooling around between consenting adults after all of the little n00bs have gone to bed to start a little troll.

After that, they are raised by their older cousins who have been around for awhile...
cousins, or half-siblings?


or put another way... if a n00b's parents get divorced, are they still brother and sister? Crazy


crewdude


May 13, 2007, 5:21 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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well i think it shows at least a little initiative to come online, find a forum, sign up, and then ask a bunch of people that you don't know for help.... but I do get your point...
my point is just that when someone is asking a troll-esque question like how their shoes should fit or what good workouts are, we should give them positive support, because obviously, they want to improve themselves....
I know that when I was in the gym last time, I walked up and helped out these two people that had never climbed before, didn't sit across the room and sneer because they didn't care to work hard and such...
And I'm sooo appreciative every time that my friends who climb better than me give me small suggestions or even large ideas that I need to work into my climbing, because without getting their first hand experience passed on to me, it would take so much longer to improve....
I'd much rather have hands on learning with someone I'm comfortable with when it comes to the life and death aspects of climbing, I don't want to read a book that shows me how to be safe and climb good, I want to learn from people that know and do it all the time, people that can show me and teach me with the knowledge and wisdom that they've accrued over the years...

In response to the paceing thing, my dad was a marathon runner for over 20 years and always helped others, whether they were overweight and couldn't run well or were cross country stars from my high school... you shouldn't just help someone because you know they'll be successful, you should help them because of the good sense of accomplishment that you have of once being at that point and now being at a place where you can help others like they helped you...

IE: EVERYONE here at one point or another LEARNED to belay someone... no one was so good that they knew from birth...


richardvg03


May 13, 2007, 6:19 PM
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Re: [crewdude] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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crewdude wrote:
my point is just that when someone is asking a troll-esque question like how their shoes should fit or what good workouts are, we should give them positive support, because obviously, they want to improve themselves....

Hell no! We should give them a hard time and make them feel really small! It builds character!... by the way... I was wondering.. how ARE my shoes suppose to fit? HAHAHA


crewdude


May 13, 2007, 6:24 PM
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Re: [richardvg03] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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richardvg03 wrote:
We should give them a hard time and make them feel really small! It builds character!
learn that from your superiors in the marines? lol... maybe for training soldiers but not people wanting to learn a new sport...


richardvg03


May 13, 2007, 6:42 PM
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Re: [crewdude] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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AHH! I forgot AGAIN!

SARCASM!!! ;)

and Marines needs to be caps as well ;) It's a title... haha (can't wait for the replies on that) LOL!!


crewdude


May 13, 2007, 8:57 PM
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Re: [richardvg03] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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