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dingus
May 2, 2007, 5:32 PM
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Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?
DMT
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moose_droppings
May 2, 2007, 5:50 PM
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dingus wrote: Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob? DMT
Are you self inducted into this status, or is it a vote by dirtbaggers?
Did we kill the sport when we were n00bs? I think it will live on regardless of the influx of gymbies and noobs.
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wanderlustmd
May 2, 2007, 5:51 PM
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I don't know, noobs and marketing aren't necessarily related; I know enough people who have no interest in climbing regardless of how cool it looks on TV.
We were all new once......
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caughtinside
May 2, 2007, 5:51 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: dingus wrote: Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob? DMT Are you self inducted into this status, or is it a vote by dirtbaggers? Did we kill the sport when we were n00bs? I think it will live on regardless of the influx of gymbies and noobs.
You didn't get jumped into the gang by running the Hex Gauntlet?
n00b.
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jgloporto
May 2, 2007, 5:51 PM
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dingus wrote: Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob? DMT
I saw that commercial....
I don't think they are killing the sport. They are great for the sport. Lot's of cheap barely used gear on e-bay is great. Lot's of hot adventure seeking co-eds flooding the place who are impressed by words like "clove hitch" and "ice tool" is great. Reading posts about shoes, fat climber/skinny belayer situations and how n00bs are killing the sport is great.
What's not great about this.
(p.s. I made up the part about the hot co-eds but the first time I see a hot co-ed harnessed up somewhere, I am definitely going to work "clove hitch" and "ice tool" into the coversation somehow.)
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jgloporto
May 2, 2007, 5:59 PM
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wanderlustmd wrote: jgloporto wrote: (p.s. I made up the part about the hot co-eds but the first time I see a hot co-ed harnessed up somewhere, I am definitely going to work "clove hitch" and "ice tool" into the coversation somehow.) Be sure to use "equalette", "gaston" and "kilonewton" as well 
Yeah, those are good ones too. Maybe I should also work in "whipper", "zipper" and "microscender." What do you think about "prussik-minding pulley"?
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dingus
May 2, 2007, 6:02 PM
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I'd like to hear from some noobs on this one. What's your perspective on this Gym? You killing our sport? Are you Disnefying climbing into an amusement park ride?
DMT
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hugin
May 2, 2007, 6:03 PM
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Not death by noob. Everyone's a noob at some point, and if there weren't noobs, climbing would die out with all the old climbers.
I would call it evisceration by popularity. There are a lot of people who try it as a novelty, to be cool, without appreciating the risks or understanding the culture. Because of that, it also gains more social and political visibility in the mainstream ... it's no longer a fringe activity or necessarily as "extreme" a sport in the public eye anymore. That's good and bad in ways ... but I would say that the primary result is the dilution of climbing culture.
Even 15 years ago, when I first started climbing, you needed to meet people and learn from experienced climbers to really get to know the crags, the process, and the ethic ... and the ethics were very strong within the community. But, at that time, I was warned of the growing number of "sport" climbers (as opposed to what those guys were calling "nature" climbers) who didn't appreciate preservation of land, the access issues, or the integrity of the stone. I came back into the fold a couple of years ago, and found that most of their warnings were very well-placed, but that the result of that growth was that the sport was also more accessible than it used to be, adn it was easy for me to just jump in.
But, whatever. It'll always be a great pursuit, and it's inherently self-selecting - the people that aren't made for it will either fade away, stay in the gyms, or kill themselves in the process. I think climbing, by its very nature, will stay reasonably pure, even if it changes over time.
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granite_grrl
May 2, 2007, 6:10 PM
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My definition of n00b has slowly been changing. It used to mean to me someone who was just new to the sport, but now I'm realizing that I know n00bs that I have been particiating in the act of climbing for 3+ years.
Its more than just length of time at the sport. Its experiance, passion, deisre to learn, among other things, that lift a person above n00b status.
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overlord
May 2, 2007, 6:17 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: Its more than just length of time at the sport. Its experiance, passion, deisre to learn, among other things, that lift a person above n00b status.
ditto that.
and its not the noobs who are killing the sport, its the stupid noobs.
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knieveltech
May 2, 2007, 6:27 PM
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dingus wrote: Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob? DMT
We're definitely trying! There's really only two things standing in the way of total n00b annihilation of the sport (heretofor refered to as The Plan). These would be the high attrition rate among the ranks and the inherent difficulty of getting a glob of n00bs outside on some of the less accessible crags (read no sport routes, not situated within 300 yards of a parking lot, no hotel nearby, etc).
N00b central is currently working on a method of preventing new climbers from progressing out of the n00b stage, which should solve the attrition problem. While it's too soon to tell what this will look like in the field ideas from early brainstorming sessions include banning publication of most climbing literature (alpinist, FotH, anything by John Long, etc), especially those works that cover ethics in any capacity. Once this body of material is rendered down to books on climbing Everst, a VHS copy of Cliffhanger, and anything with Dosage in the title, phase one of this aspect of The Plan should be complete.
Transportation methods are also being worked on to make access to more climbing areas feasible for your average n00b. These could include paved shopping enclaves at the base of most crags nationwide, bolt-on gym-style holds so route setters will have more control over outdoor terrain, route tape to replace topos, and retro-bolting most established lines (up to the first pitch belay, multipitch climbing isn't currently in vogue with n00bs). Once transportation and facilities are in place plans include guided tours by the busload (just like river rafting, how exciting!).
We believe that these bold initiatives, in conjuntion with the Tickmark Project (one of several initiatives designed to alienate land managers), with assistance from media and advertising (thank you urban climber!), the death of climbing as it's been known for decades is a sure thing. We can all look forward to a bright future as climbing is once again transformed. Out of the ashes will rise a new (very low) democratic mean as outdoor climbing is overhauled to directly mirror indoor climbing.
"There have been spontaneous demonstrations amongs the workers voicing their joy and gratitude at our happy new way of life" - Orwell, 1984
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caughtinside
May 2, 2007, 6:29 PM
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yes. n00bs killing the sport and all that.
Oh, and Ivan Greene. he is also killing the sport.
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amikros
May 2, 2007, 6:46 PM
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I'm a new climber, but this is what I think...
On one level, I think that is a silly question.
For obvious reasons, there will always have to be noobs. If experienced climbers retreat into the backcountry with all their gear, their tents and, in some cases, their egos, never to introduce the sport to anyone else, the sport will die. Der.
Buuut, the sport, in theory, essence and community can die, as people turn it into a "look how cool I am," "look how quickly I learned to climb a 5.12d" contest. And that's the problem. Not the popularity of the sport, but the way the sport could be used as a validation point for your "noobs."
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majid_sabet
May 2, 2007, 6:48 PM
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No, n00bs are not killing this sport however those who are marking climbing like it is another skateboarding are slowly pushing n00bs over the edge. Here n00b, buy these gears and go out there and play. Do not forget to read page 3 of that instruction on how to use the belay device.
Some of these fat money making managers should get together and pay for free n00b safety seminars if they really care about the safety.
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tarzan
May 2, 2007, 7:14 PM
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Like it or not, climbing is swiftly becoming part of the mainstream. Yes this will bring in new crowds of people as it becomes more accessible. I do have the feeling that this somewhat cheapens the sport. Especially for the people that dedicate their life to it and are constantly pushing the limits.
Change is a part of all things. It brings both good and bad.
Maybe this new influx of popularity amidst common people will push the true climbers to take climbing to a totally new place, to separate themselves from those who view it as just a pass time.
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greenketch
May 2, 2007, 7:14 PM
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I do not believe that it is noobs directly that are killing the sport. It is folk who come up with "the answer" that don't really know what they are talking about. The debacle on Hood last winter is a great example lot's of speculation by pepes that had no idea. I think these sorts of things are concentrated in the newb world but it is ignorance of newbieship that cause problems.
All of the spread of the sport has led many to forget that the single most correct statement one can make is "I don't know."
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climb_eng
May 2, 2007, 7:20 PM
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Good troll... I think this one has legs.
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majid_sabet
May 2, 2007, 7:32 PM
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tarzan wrote: Like it or not, climbing is swiftly becoming part of the mainstream. Yes this will bring in new crowds of people as it becomes more accessible. I do have the feeling that this somewhat cheapens the sport. Especially for the people that dedicate their life to it and are constantly pushing the limits. Change is a part of all things. It brings both good and bad. Maybe this new influx of popularity amidst common people will push the true climbers to take climbing to a totally new place, to separate themselves from those who view it as just a pass time.
IMO we got two different groups of climbers, I mean we could label them to more than two but let’s focus on these two groups for now
A- True climbers who have all the elements in the right place to fit with nature and do it for life or life means climbing to them and nothing else.
B- ¼ Ass waneebee climbers who are just trying this new thing to see where they can fit with others , fuc8 things up for group A during this process ( Accidents, access issues, environmental impact), eventually they give-up ( See eBay and check out their items for sell ) and they move on to another game .
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shropshire
May 2, 2007, 7:38 PM
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The sport is not dieing, so I guess that no one is killing it.
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bandycoot
May 2, 2007, 8:07 PM
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First off, I'd say that our sport does a good job of killing n00bs so it might be square.
I'm a 20 something year old male. I started in the gym and thought pullups, campusing, and dynos were cool when I started. I attended the PBC to watch the celebrities climb and bouldered in Bishop because I didn't know how to lead.
Over the last 8 years since I started climbing, I've grown and learned about what our sport means. I've encirled myself with like minded people. We pick up trash when we see it, we rappel instead of lower to save the rock and rappel rings, we stay on trails and even help build them, we trad climb in the mountains, we watch sunsets and view scenery, and at the same time we try to push our limits and find out what we're made of.
Being a true part of the climbing community means helping ensure that the resource will always be there, interacting with the environment positively, and loving all forms of climbing. It means congratulating success instead of envying it, and the aesthetic line means more than the number (although they often go hand in hand). Snake Dike is still one of my favorite climbs ever!
Those who are "killing our sport" aren't the n00bs, but the selfish ones. The ones trying to get the most out of their environment without giving anything back. It's easy to cut switchbacks to save time, or crap at the base and not pack it out. It's possible to climb an arch and self publicize while hurting future access for every climber that follows. Egos balloon and bolt wars ensue that result in permenant scars that all will see. Trash gets left on big walls (definitely not n00b territory there). There were the people hammering The Green Arch last month at Tahquitz doing permenant damage to a spectacular free climb so that they could get some "aid practice." It's the selfish that ruin the sport, not the n00bs. Sometimes the selfish and the n00b go hand in hand, but often it is out of ignorance. The finger should be pointed at those experienced, yet still selfish, climbers who work to ruin it for all. The Dean Potters, the Art Messiers, the excessive hammerers and so on, because not only do they know better, they decide to act the way they do with that knowledge.
Josh
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svilnit
May 2, 2007, 8:20 PM
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jgloporto wrote: dingus wrote: Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob? DMT I saw that commercial.... I don't think they are killing the sport. They are great for the sport. Lot's of cheap barely used gear on e-bay is great. Lot's of hot adventure seeking co-eds flooding the place who are impressed by words like "clove hitch" and "ice tool" is great. Reading posts about shoes, fat climber/skinny belayer situations and how n00bs are killing the sport is great. What's not great about this. (p.s. I made up the part about the hot co-eds but the first time I see a hot co-ed harnessed up somewhere, I am definitely going to work "clove hitch" and "ice tool" into the coversation somehow.)
Yeah, I could see it now....
"Hey baby, what do you think about me clove hitching my ice tool to your butterfly knot?"
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hornboy101
May 2, 2007, 8:34 PM
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We were all new, but eventually people get weeded out, or fall really far.
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slowhand
May 2, 2007, 8:55 PM
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Its funny I heard the same question last year when I was learning curling.
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