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healyje


May 2, 2007, 8:53 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
n00bs aren't killing my climbing. If anything, it's getting healthier.

If an easy 85% of climbers being 100% bolt dependent, rampant commercialization, increased access problems, trampled resources, grid bolting, and a complete k-fed, supermarket integration into suburban pop culture is your idea of 'healthier', then my guess is you are either selling climbing in some way or another or you are a comfortable member of the horde. To be honest, I started climbing to avoid hanging out around just the sort of risk-averse suburbanites who have now thoroughly innundated it.

Does that sound elitist? It's actually just misanthropic.


healyje


May 2, 2007, 8:55 PM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Ya gotta love Dingus though - he's a real man among trolls...


curt


May 2, 2007, 10:58 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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bandycoot wrote:
First off, I'd say that our sport does a good job of killing n00bs so it might be square.

I'm a 20 something year old male. I started in the gym and thought pullups, campusing, and dynos were cool when I started. I attended the PBC to watch the celebrities climb and bouldered in Bishop because I didn't know how to lead.

Over the last 8 years since I started climbing, I've grown and learned about what our sport means. I've encirled myself with like minded people. We pick up trash when we see it, we rappel instead of lower to save the rock and rappel rings, we stay on trails and even help build them, we trad climb in the mountains, we watch sunsets and view scenery, and at the same time we try to push our limits and find out what we're made of.

Being a true part of the climbing community means helping ensure that the resource will always be there, interacting with the environment positively, and loving all forms of climbing. It means congratulating success instead of envying it, and the aesthetic line means more than the number (although they often go hand in hand). Snake Dike is still one of my favorite climbs ever!

Those who are "killing our sport" aren't the n00bs, but the selfish ones. The ones trying to get the most out of their environment without giving anything back. It's easy to cut switchbacks to save time, or crap at the base and not pack it out. It's possible to climb an arch and self publicize while hurting future access for every climber that follows. Egos balloon and bolt wars ensue that result in permenant scars that all will see. Trash gets left on big walls (definitely not n00b territory there). There were the people hammering The Green Arch last month at Tahquitz doing permenant damage to a spectacular free climb so that they could get some "aid practice." It's the selfish that ruin the sport, not the n00bs. Sometimes the selfish and the n00b go hand in hand, but often it is out of ignorance. The finger should be pointed at those experienced, yet still selfish, climbers who work to ruin it for all. The Dean Potters, the Art Messiers, the excessive hammerers and so on, because not only do they know better, they decide to act the way they do with that knowledge.

Josh

Great post, although I doubt it will be much noticed or appreciated in this thread.

Curt


suzie_cuzie


May 2, 2007, 11:23 PM
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Re: [healyje] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
Ya gotta love Dingus though - he's a real man among trolls...

Really? I kinda thought this one was sub-par...No offense to Dingus, but there just wasn't that certain je-ne-sais-quois that a truly good troll has.


rc_vinay


May 3, 2007, 2:31 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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dont forget that there was a time when u were noob to.


tomcat


May 3, 2007, 4:07 AM
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Re: [rc_vinay] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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I have no problem with nOObs.I still fondly recall my nOOb days,we were clueless,definately the most dangerous era of my thirty years of climbing,would not trade those days for anything.

I remember an early partner stalling forever just above the crux of a grueling 5.4 overhang.When he finally made the belay I asked what took so long.He held up an orange sling with no knot in it.I'd girth hitched a tree and he did not know enough to just unhitch it,so hung by one hand and untied the knot.

That said,the thing that does concern me is the idea that climbing should be,and is,SAFE.It's not,and it's not meant to be.It's the mountains,stuff happens.You can certainly reduce the odds...but.

I watch the endless bitching about Aliens,and sometimes I pull out an old bootleg half size friend and a quarter inch rawl and look at them for reference.OMG was that thing sketchy.We'd have given anything for a set of Aliens,and if a few blew apart we would have still cherished them.We did new stuff on tied off pins and it all seemed pretty normal.Now everybody has to have a prefixed rappel anchor,a huge list of beta,people on Gunks.com will tell you every piece you will need to lead a 5.5.

Sport climbing looked Ok at first,but we never dreamed anyone would bolt a crack.


rockclimbchar


May 3, 2007, 5:40 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Clarify "Noobs" exactly. That makes a big difference re: a reply. Am I a "Noob"? To some, maybe. To myself, no. I have been climbing for 5 years or so but do not climb a high grade considering that length of time. My two daughters and husband climb as well. None of us are big shot, ego climbers either. We respect nature and are sensitive to access issues. We learn as we go. In the beginning we probably made a lot of mistakes regarding climbing ethics due to lack of info. It is the responsibility of the seasoned climbers to teach this to the Noobs, not to separate from them. The noobs will either find they love climbing or hate it or do somethings really unsafe and get hurt pretty bad or die. Again, seasoned climbers have a responsibility. Everyone was a Noob. I didn't have the luxury of learning from a mentor and had to learn mostly on my own, I also had a couple of injuries and I don't get to climb as much as I want to and need to (family and work obligations - I didn't start climbing till I was approx. 32yrs. old so those responsibilities were already in place), therefore the reason for slow progress. However, it is definitely a passion for me. I like Sport climbing a lot, does this make me a Noob? (I don't feel a climb that can be well protected by trad gear should be bolted however). I have only led trad a little bit and am quite uncomfortable of it still so I only trad lead beginner climbs yet push my limits on sport. Does this make me a noob? I still toprope a lot, does this make me a noob? I climb in the gym during the "off" season which is quite a bit in NE PA, does that make me a noob? I climb quite slow on multi-pitches, does that make me a noob? I still have a million things to learn and often ask pretty simple questions of better climbers than myself, does this make me a noob? I really enjoy introducing climbing to others, does that make me a noob or a contributer to the demise of climbing? I don't have a big ego, does that make me a noob? Even though I have climbed for so long, I can still look like a goof on the rocks as well as my family members, does that make me/ us noobs? Well, I don't really have an answer to your question, just some things to contemplate.

I do emphasize however that seasoned climbers with good climbing ethics have a responsibility to keep Newbies from contributing to any "Death of climbing by Noobs". A much better attitude than sitting around and bitching about it, letting egos get in the way, and snubbing our noses at people new to climbing is to be good mentors. The gym rats who decide to wander outside will get weeded out once they realize the seriousness of outdoor climbing and will either stick to it forever or their climbing interest will fade like an old hobby. Meanwhile, for those of us who are addicted to climbing, we can help protect any access issues, ect. through passing on the ethics.

For those of us who truley love climbing, "image" should not be an issue. Commercialized "image" opposed to the more realistic hard core, intimate circle "image" of climbing. "Image" can come dangerously close to "Ego". If I let my ego get in the way then I would have quit climbing a long time ago since I am not climbing 5.12's yet considering how long I have been climbing. Hell, I might not ever be, but that is not what it is about for me. Climbing is a passion for me, I am miserable when I can't climb. I am competitive, but only with myself (one of many beauties about climbing). I have met more helpful, eager to share their experience, type of seasoned climbers than I have the egotistical type that snub their noses, considering me to be not worth their time. I hope it will always stay that way. That has always been a great attribute of the "climbing community", the respect towards each other, regardless of what stage of climbing they are at.
Just something to ponder..............

***Just to clear up any confusion or misunderstanding: There is more than one definition for "Ego". One definition is: "the element of being that consciously and continuously enables an individual to think, feel, and act." Another definition is: "conceit" - "an exaggerated opinion of one's ability, importance, etc." Conceit is the definition I am referring to when using the word “ego” in this posting. These definitions are from The World Book Encyclopedia. These two differences in the use of the word "ego" could definitely cause a misinterpretation of my posting. Also, there is a lot more to my posting/ reply than just about egos.


(This post was edited by rockclimbchar on May 4, 2007, 8:06 AM)


svilnit


May 3, 2007, 5:51 AM
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Some say its true.... Tragedy of the Commons and all that horseshit. Well what say you Commoners? Are you killing our sport? Once it was only the dirtbags and us elite who climbed, now they climb on orange juice commercials. Does ths represent the Death of Climbing? Death by Noob?

DMT

We should all bow to the master troller...



King Dingus!


Partner oldsalt


May 3, 2007, 5:57 AM
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Re: [rockclimbchar] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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To rockclimbchar:

Very well said.

I would like to think that there are Noobs and people new to climbing. Noobs would come across as Noobs in whatever they choose to do, because they are socially mal-adjusted, etc.

I was new to climbing four years ago. I have a list of things that I have not done but want to do, and things that I have not learned but want to learn. I am still a novice, but I don't feel like a Noob. I hope that there is a difference.

[Edited to clarify target of post]


(This post was edited by oldsalt on May 3, 2007, 5:59 AM)


Partner j_ung


May 3, 2007, 6:25 AM
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Re: [healyje] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
j_ung wrote:
n00bs aren't killing my climbing. If anything, it's getting healthier.

If an easy 85% of climbers being 100% bolt dependent, rampant commercialization, increased access problems, trampled resources, grid bolting, and a complete k-fed, supermarket integration into suburban pop culture is your idea of 'healthier', then my guess is you are either selling climbing in some way or another or you are a comfortable member of the horde. To be honest, I started climbing to avoid hanging out around just the sort of risk-averse suburbanites who have now thoroughly innundated it.

Actually, there's another explanation. I have more fun climbing now that I ever have before and it seems to get better (even though I get weaker) as life goes on. I'm far more personally involved in local access than ever before, for the first time in my life I live exactly where I want to, and on any given day, I can phone up any of thirty or so people and have a partner on belay in an hour.

So, when I say MY climbing is healthier than ever, that's exactly what I mean. If the rest of you chumps worried more about your own impact on "the sport" (whatever the Hell that is -- how do you define such a diverse concept?) and less about others, I think you might find that everything really is a-o-k.


slowkid
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Re: [dingus] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Could this be the first viable entry for the Troll Contest?!? You have my vote, sir. Well done Dingus. Well done.


dingus


May 3, 2007, 6:41 AM
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Re: [rockclimbchar] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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rockclimbchar wrote:
Commercialized "image" opposed to the more realistic hard core, intimate circle "image" of climbing.

The 'core' climber IS the image they sell.

In reply to:
"Image" can come dangerously close to "Ego".

Ah there's that dreaded word ego. But for ego El Cap would never have been climbed.

In reply to:
If I let my ego get in the way then I would have quit climbing a long time ago since I am not climbing 5.12's yet considering how long I have been climbing.

Who said anything about an ego getting in the way? Ego is the fuel of climbing's competitive fire.

DMT


urbanpioneer


May 3, 2007, 6:46 AM
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Re: [uhoh] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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uhoh I think you're missing the point but it seems like you're missing a lot more than that too.

Being a nOOb isn't related to the time you've been climbing but the attitude you bring to climbing. If you're climbing .12d and shouting like an asshole but bring your crashpad to sit around on while your dog shits all over the crag you're still a nOOb as far as I'm concerned. It's a process that not everyone in the sport can go through and is seriously hindered by time in the gym where climbing has all but entered an institutionalized-jazzercised-tae boed-mother-fucking-Sweatin' to the oldies-i'm here for a workout-mentality. But the gym, for as much as it allows easy entry to our sport, is still separating those who get if from those who just have something to prove. God help us if these jackasses have the power to destroy something as strong and revered as our precious sport.


bob_54b


May 3, 2007, 7:03 AM
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don't own a TV, don't even know what a noob is, never tell Lonely Planet, free solo by others so fast they think you're a breeze, ie: it's what you make it for yourself. HEEHEEHEEECool


pyramid


May 3, 2007, 7:07 AM
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Re: [urbanpioneer] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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Noobs are merely a byproduct of capitolism and marketing. The need of capitolism is to create change so new ways can be found to sell products. The white bread Cleaver type family marketing has been on going since TV's early days, so marketers are looking for new ideas. They got ahold of 'exreme' sports and are using this concept as their new marketing tool. Climbing isn't the only Noob filled sport. You see white 20 somethings in their Toyotas with the full rack; skis, bikes, kayak, rock gear inside,etc. They have taken to the newer marketing and of course are new to these various activities. Noobery is only a narual by-product of capitolism, I mean what are these people going to do after buying all this equipment, just look at it?


Partner oldsalt


May 3, 2007, 7:25 AM
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pyramid wrote:
Noobs are merely a byproduct of capitolism and marketing. The need of capitolism is to create change so new ways can be found to sell products. The white bread Cleaver type family marketing has been on going since TV's early days, so marketers are looking for new ideas. They got ahold of 'exreme' sports and are using this concept as their new marketing tool. Climbing isn't the only Noob filled sport. You see white 20 somethings in their Toyotas with the full rack; skis, bikes, kayak, rock gear inside,etc. They have taken to the newer marketing and of course are new to these various activities. Noobery is only a narual by-product of capitolism, I mean what are these people going to do after buying all this equipment, just look at it?

I must disagree with the heart of your point. CapitAlism is the economic system for individuals. Climbing is an activity for individuals. I do not know anyone who climbs because they saw, for example, the Subaru(?) ad where the group of guys drive across the desert to a tower and chicken-out when they get there.

It has been established in other threads that climbers as a group are well educated (formally or otherwise). We do not do things because others do it. If anything, we probably do it because others do not climb.

Your belayer is a necessary means to get to spend time alone with your thoughts and fears on a face or slab. My partner and I are friends and we trust each other with our lives, but I still climb for my time on the rock. We both solo when we can't get out together. This speaks volumes about individualism.

Regarding Noobs - my previous post about them vs people merely new to the sport still stands, in my mind.


zeke_sf


May 3, 2007, 8:06 AM
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Re: [oldsalt] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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oldsalt wrote:
zeke, you are a man of Letters?

Nah, I've given up on reading. Fortunately, this site doesn't require any. I just have a grudge against the suicidal greats. Seven-toed cats are cool though.

I think I saw some nOObs this weekend. They practically had an aid rack to climb a three pitch 5.6. The six screamers or so hanging from one of their harnesses, however, was what indelibly emblazoned the scarlet "N" across their foreheads for me.


sarcat


May 3, 2007, 8:29 AM
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Troll or not the "d" has a point.

No matter how long or how much some people have been climbing they're still nOObesqe in their attitude and self serving behavior. They're braggarts that ruin the image dirtbaggers enjoy. Or because of lack in training or skill they deck drawing attention and criticism, altering public perception of what the sport really is.

Others just learning show the respect to the traditions and quickly become positive, quite ambassadors to the sport not bringing attention to themselves and their shiny new gear.

Let's start a nOOb police force. Of course I won't join because I'm probably still a nOOb myself.


the_leech


May 3, 2007, 8:52 AM
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Re: [suzie_cuzie] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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suzie_cuzie wrote:
healyje wrote:
Ya gotta love Dingus though - he's a real man among trolls...

Really? I kinda thought this one was sub-par...No offense to Dingus, but there just wasn't that certain je-ne-sais-quois that a truly good troll has.

I disagree. Although not particularly original, it's a strong troll.

First, he used his older, respected username with 7,000+ posts to give the thread legitimacy. Then, he broached an inflammatory topic in a non-threatening manner without leveling any direct accusations. This approach is sophisticated – it draws out passionate and indignant responses without resorting to the effective but simplistic aggro in-your-face opening post. Last (and this is what did it for me), he used an erudite reference and “horseshit” in the same sentence. That adds the necessary “je ne sais quoi,” as far as I’m concerned.

But we all have our own preferences for troll styling.


granite_grrl


May 3, 2007, 9:06 AM
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the_leech wrote:
suzie_cuzie wrote:
healyje wrote:
Ya gotta love Dingus though - he's a real man among trolls...

Really? I kinda thought this one was sub-par...No offense to Dingus, but there just wasn't that certain je-ne-sais-quois that a truly good troll has.

I disagree. Although not particularly original, it's a strong troll.

First, he used his older, respected username with 7,000+ posts to give the thread legitimacy. Then, he broached an inflammatory topic in a non-threatening manner without leveling any direct accusations. This approach is sophisticated – it draws out passionate and indignant responses without resorting to the effective but simplistic aggro in-your-face opening post. Last (and this is what did it for me), he used an erudite reference and “horseshit” in the same sentence. That adds the necessary “je ne sais quoi,” as far as I’m concerned.

But we all have our own preferences for troll styling.

Why women climb was good, the initial post was humorous, but it was quite obvious a troll. Dingus actually has a little more truth behind his troll, but its almost not fair to troll the n00bs, like shooting fish in a barrel.


the_leech


May 3, 2007, 9:27 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
Why women climb was good, the initial post was humorous, but it was quite obvious a troll. Dingus actually has a little more truth behind his troll, but its almost not fair to troll the n00bs, like shooting fish in a barrel.

True. Although this one has generated a significant response from old schoolers and n00bs alike. That's another reason I think it's a strong troll.

I'm interested to see how this thread will pan out compared to "The n00bs must be culled."


majid_sabet


May 3, 2007, 9:40 AM
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Here
Some one is making CASH from poor n00bs starting today on RC and soon NIGERIANS are going to take over RC offering every thing with climbing


http://www.rockclimbing.com/...5;page=unread#unread

[URL=http://imageshack.us]


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 3, 2007, 10:10 AM)


climb_eng


May 3, 2007, 9:42 AM
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I saw that one, I really thing some ass is going to send Jay a dollar. Wouldn't surprise me one bit....


microbarn


May 3, 2007, 10:14 AM
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Re: [curt] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
bandycoot wrote:
First off, I'd say that our sport does a good job of killing n00bs so it might be square.

I'm a 20 something year old male. I started in the gym and thought pullups, campusing, and dynos were cool when I started. I attended the PBC to watch the celebrities climb and bouldered in Bishop because I didn't know how to lead.

Over the last 8 years since I started climbing, I've grown and learned about what our sport means. I've encirled myself with like minded people. We pick up trash when we see it, we rappel instead of lower to save the rock and rappel rings, we stay on trails and even help build them, we trad climb in the mountains, we watch sunsets and view scenery, and at the same time we try to push our limits and find out what we're made of.

Being a true part of the climbing community means helping ensure that the resource will always be there, interacting with the environment positively, and loving all forms of climbing. It means congratulating success instead of envying it, and the aesthetic line means more than the number (although they often go hand in hand). Snake Dike is still one of my favorite climbs ever!

Those who are "killing our sport" aren't the n00bs, but the selfish ones. The ones trying to get the most out of their environment without giving anything back. It's easy to cut switchbacks to save time, or crap at the base and not pack it out. It's possible to climb an arch and self publicize while hurting future access for every climber that follows. Egos balloon and bolt wars ensue that result in permenant scars that all will see. Trash gets left on big walls (definitely not n00b territory there). There were the people hammering The Green Arch last month at Tahquitz doing permenant damage to a spectacular free climb so that they could get some "aid practice." It's the selfish that ruin the sport, not the n00bs. Sometimes the selfish and the n00b go hand in hand, but often it is out of ignorance. The finger should be pointed at those experienced, yet still selfish, climbers who work to ruin it for all. The Dean Potters, the Art Messiers, the excessive hammerers and so on, because not only do they know better, they decide to act the way they do with that knowledge.

Josh

Great post, although I doubt it will be much noticed or appreciated in this thread.

Curt

Hell yes! It is definitely going unnoticed. Way to long to bother reading all that.

ditto on the other wordy ones


Partner j_ung


May 3, 2007, 10:18 AM
Post #75 of 223 (2766 views)
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690

Re: [climb_eng] Are Noobs Killing Our Sport? [In reply to]
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climb_eng wrote:
I saw that one, I really thing some ass is going to send Jay a dollar. Wouldn't surprise me one bit....

One can only hope! Smile

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