|
Pdizz
May 29, 2007, 1:58 AM
Post #1 of 36
(3847 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
So theres a couple sport areas close to me that have horribly protected routes and crap for anchors. some routes have 1 bolt for an anchor or none at all but ususally when theres no bolts theres some kind of natural pro. and almost all the routes are runout like hell some of the anchors are spaced 2-3 feet apart and uneven as well. So i was thinking i should go and add some safe anchors to alot of the routes at these places. I dont want to bolt the actual routes because i know how touchy people get about that. I just want to make some decent anchors. i could use some opinions on this, im just not sure if people would get mad and chop them or thank me the places im talking about are beardsly boulder pile and the ice castles ready.... GO!
(This post was edited by Pdizz on May 29, 2007, 2:08 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
angry
May 29, 2007, 2:14 AM
Post #2 of 36
(3818 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
I personally would not complain if someone fixed bad anchors with good anchors. I personally would not complain if someone replaced a bad lead bolt with a good one. But....there's so many shades of grey where I would complain, here's a short list. - Anchors have natural pro options and you can easily walk off the cliff. No need for new anchors then. (Of course one mans walkoff is another mans epic, not to mention erosion that walking causes) - The old bolts predate gear to protect that section, nowdays with modern gear the route is perfectly safe without bolts - If the anchors are placed in such a way that the route is actually easier or harder than it previously was. And lastly, please don't fuck up the anchor replacement. I've seen some really bad fixes, so bad that it just needs fixed again. It's stupid really, you leave the rock looking like a bolt war happened and it's just a mistake. So get it right. And the disclaimer. I have never climbed in Arizona, so I don't speak on behalf of shit.
|
|
|
|
|
meesier42
May 29, 2007, 2:16 AM
Post #3 of 36
(3812 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 84
|
contact the land owner/ manager and get their opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
rhythm164
May 29, 2007, 2:17 AM
Post #4 of 36
(3812 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 964
|
you can't please all the people all the time, so if you do indeed decide to replace the anchors, be ready to piss some folks off. In addition, before you undertake this, take a minute to research local access issues, because if you go bolting, and it closes the crag, you will not be popular. Also, some of those runout routes that take mixed gear could be intended to be exactly that: runout mixed gear routes, don't go retro-bolting a line that's already been done in good style, that's weak sauce. That being said, just make sure you bolt safely and properly, and good looking out in your attempt to make the crag a safer place to climb.
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
May 29, 2007, 2:20 AM
Post #5 of 36
(3806 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
yeah these areas have fairly short routes ranging from 15 feet to 65 that really have no option for gear on most routes i know ive seen some preaty nasty fixes, ill make sure and place them right and SAFE!
(This post was edited by Pdizz on May 29, 2007, 2:21 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
boltdagunks
Jun 2, 2007, 3:27 PM
Post #6 of 36
(3676 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 1, 2007
Posts: 37
|
Pdizz wrote: So theres a couple sport areas close to me that have horribly protected routes and crap for anchors. some routes have 1 bolt for an anchor or none at all but ususally when theres no bolts theres some kind of natural pro. and almost all the routes are runout like hell some of the anchors are spaced 2-3 feet apart and uneven as well. WOW talk about a contradictory post . I really like the part " but ususally when theres no bolts theres some kind of natural pro." No wonder there's such much anti-bolting hate !
|
|
|
|
|
time2clmb
Jun 2, 2007, 4:36 PM
Post #7 of 36
(3657 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 473
|
In reply to: some routes have 1 bolt for an anchor or none at all but ususally when theres no bolts theres some kind of natural pro. and almost all the routes are runout like hell some of the anchors are spaced 2-3 feet apart and uneven as well If there are natural pro options then learn how to place pro. Some people like to climb runouts...not every route needs a bolt every few feet. If the anchor bolts are uneven and 2 - 3 feet apart then learn how to build an anchor. The 2 draw method does not always work.
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jun 3, 2007, 10:55 PM
Post #8 of 36
(3578 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
i would recommend you contact the ASCA and inquire if they have anyone who participates in their Anchor Replacement Initiative local to your area. I'd be willing to bet that if they do have a contact in the area, they may prove to be one of the best resources for information local to you, plus they (at least the guy who does most of the ASCA work around the Wasatch) are always willing to have another hand on their weekend replacement projects.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jun 4, 2007, 12:12 AM
Post #9 of 36
(3547 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
Replacing bad anchor bolts is one thing, but if there aren't anchors that's because it's a mixed crag and you're expected to have gear. Routes that "horrible protection" are probably mixed routes as well and you're supposed to be climbing with at least a couple of pieces of gear or a small rack. You need to find and talk to the locals who climb there and who put up the routes before you do anything.
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 4, 2007, 1:04 AM
Post #10 of 36
(3516 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
i know how to build an anchor, and i know when a route needs mixed pro these routes DONT have that option some have natural pro i understand that and im not trying to put anchors where there not needed but when theres only one route on a wall with bolts spaced 3 feet apart and uneven for the anchor , then it might need a proper anchor... wouldnt you say? theres many more routes at the places im talking about with the same problem or different ones read before you reply it might help
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 4, 2007, 1:08 AM
Post #11 of 36
(3509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
"time2clmb wrote: Some people like to climb runouts...not every route needs a bolt every few feet.
Pdizz wrote: I dont want to bolt the actual routes because i know how touchy people get about that. ........ like i said read before you reply
(This post was edited by Pdizz on Jun 4, 2007, 1:12 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
time2clmb
Jun 4, 2007, 1:22 AM
Post #12 of 36
(3499 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 473
|
I did read it.
In reply to: with bolts spaced 3 feet apart and uneven for the anchor , then it might need a proper anchor... wouldnt you say No I wouldn't say without seeing it. Perhaps they are placed this way for a reason. Oooohhhh the bolts are uneven and 3 feet apart. Big deal. Learn how to build an anchor....and if you do know how to as you claim then what's the problem?
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 4, 2007, 2:09 AM
Post #13 of 36
(3479 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
im just trying to help out, dick why have wrongly paced bolts? theres no reason for it AT ALL sure, you can make an anchor but, is there a reason? NO, i checked if there where maybe reason for the anchors being set up the way they are. so im willing to put a little money and effort into making it better got problem with that THEN DONT CLIMB IT. simple as that. dont reply for the sake of arguing, i dont need advice from a moron
(This post was edited by Pdizz on Jun 4, 2007, 2:23 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jun 4, 2007, 2:13 AM
Post #14 of 36
(3472 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
Again, you need to figure out who did all this to begin with and who the 'locals' are before starting into any such endeavor.
|
|
|
|
|
anykineclimb
Jun 4, 2007, 2:18 AM
Post #15 of 36
(3466 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 3593
|
the anchors might be that far apart and uneven due to rock quality (or lack threof) not trying to insult you, but do you know how to place a bolt and where to place it if you to do this?
|
|
|
|
|
boku
Jun 4, 2007, 2:23 AM
Post #16 of 36
(3461 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2004
Posts: 278
|
Pdizz wrote: im just trying to help out, dick Well, there it is.
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 4, 2007, 2:25 AM
Post #17 of 36
(3461 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
jesus , why would i ask this if i dont know how to place a bolt or even build an anchor? THINK
(This post was edited by Pdizz on Jun 4, 2007, 2:25 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jun 4, 2007, 2:28 AM
Post #18 of 36
(3451 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
Pdizz wrote: im just trying to help out, dick huh. you must have edited your response, cause there's much more here than was in your initial response, to which i was going to reply: "he's just trying to help out, jane."
Pdizz wrote: why have wrongly paced bolts? theres no reason for it AT ALL sure, you can make an anchor but, is there a reason? NO, i checked if there where maybe reason for the anchors being set up the way they are. so im willing to put a little money and effort into making it better got problem with that THEN DONT CLIMB IT. simple as that. dont reply for the sake of arguing, i dont need advice from a moron to which i might reply: why don't you read the "to retro or not" thread and try to understand why he responded in the manner in which he did.
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 4, 2007, 2:33 AM
Post #19 of 36
(3446 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
i did edit it because i had more to say i dont want to place bolts on any of the actual routes JUST ANCHORS
|
|
|
|
|
rocknice2
Jun 4, 2007, 2:53 AM
Post #20 of 36
(3432 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1221
|
Pdizz wrote: i know how to build an anchor, but when theres only one route on a wall with bolts spaced 3 feet apart and uneven for the anchor , then it might need a proper anchor... wouldnt you say? theres many more routes at the places im talking about with the same problem or different ones Uneven anchors are the new norm around here anyway. One above the other and slightly to the side. 3 feet is very excessive but maybe it like that for a reason.[bad rock] I don't know? Even or parallel anchor almost always have the left hand hanger as a spinner. This is because when you rap off the anchor you torque the left hand bolt in a counterclockwise direction. The best anchor for harder stone is a Fixe hanger w/rap ring.
|
|
|
|
|
anykineclimb
Jun 4, 2007, 3:00 AM
Post #21 of 36
(3425 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 3593
|
Pdizz wrote: jesus , why would i ask this if i dont know how to place a bolt or even build an anchor? THINK like I said, maybe the rock is bad and thats why they're located that way. THINK
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 4, 2007, 3:07 AM
Post #22 of 36
(3415 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
maybe, just maybe..... I climb there and you dont in all seriousness THINK, you might find that it helps
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 4, 2007, 3:12 AM
Post #23 of 36
(3409 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
the rock isnt bad im telling you guys there is no reason at all for this i climb there all the time you guys dont please stop assuming that I have no idea what im doing.
|
|
|
|
|
anykineclimb
Jun 4, 2007, 3:14 AM
Post #24 of 36
(3405 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 3593
|
Pdizz wrote: ...i could use some opinions on this... You got it
|
|
|
|
|
rocknice2
Jun 4, 2007, 3:22 AM
Post #25 of 36
(3396 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1221
|
Pdizz wrote: the rock isnt bad im telling you guys there is no reason at all for this i climb there all the time you guys dont please stop assuming that I have no idea what im doing. You started this so take it like a man. Read what I said earlier again.
In reply to: Even or parallel anchor almost always have the left hand hanger as a spinner. This is because when you rap off the anchor you torque the left hand bolt in a counterclockwise direction. Maybe you don't know everything. A remedy is also posted above in my previous post.
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 4, 2007, 3:36 AM
Post #26 of 36
(993 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
im not saying i know everything but im sure i know a little more about the rock quality than someone who has never been to these places i dont need opinions on how bad the rock could be. The rock is fine, the anchors are not should i replace them? thats what i need to know
|
|
|
|
|
charlet_poser
Jun 4, 2007, 3:42 AM
Post #27 of 36
(984 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2005
Posts: 62
|
if the bolts are bad, replace them. if they're just uneven, add some long chains that will facilitate rapping/QD anchors. or maybe just add a bolt closer to 1 or the other so you're not taking anything out. sounds like you know what's best already.
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 4, 2007, 3:53 AM
Post #28 of 36
(980 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
thank you ill keep all that in mind see this is the kind of reply in looking for
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jun 4, 2007, 3:58 AM
Post #29 of 36
(977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
ask yourself this: what is the closest distance that you feel comfortable having bolts placed together in various qualities of rock? is having them displaced horizontally result in lower angles between the anchor points, which would help to reduce the angle+force multiplication problem, a good thing? I know that when ice climbing, i will generally prefer to offset the horizontal elevations of any belay station anchors which I feel necessary to make, such that I can minimize the angle between anchors (all else being equal), then tie limiting knots in my various arms of my anchor setup. please provide for me (and the boards) the following information to assure us that you are doing the homework necessary to answer the question you have posed: 1: rock type and quality for the routes in question (pictures are nice) 2: minimum safe distances between bolts for various rock types (sandstone vs. basalt vs. conglomerate vs. limestone vs. granite vs. quartzite), and how you arrived at the answers for this question 3: photos of the anchors in question 4: photos of other anchors in the area which you would feel are properly installed when you can provide some answers to the questions posed above, perhaps more relevant information may be provided here on this forum. Until such questions are asked, I'm sure that the quality of information posted here will be nothing less than frustrating for you, and perhaps mildly amusing for us. ~Sty
|
|
|
|
|
wonder1978
Jun 4, 2007, 4:13 AM
Post #30 of 36
(971 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2002
Posts: 250
|
First, you are taking a lot of this the wrong way. It's your thread after all, so you should feel free to disregard the posts that you feel don't apply to you, without having to bitch about every single one of them. Diplomacy pays on forums. Second, I've been considering doing something a bit similar to you at a local crag. It's a small crag with very low traffic. I've noticed that a couple of routes are lacking anchors (some anchors were seemingly chopped for some reason), and I also noticed a couple of virgin lines that I thought would be nice routes and that I'd like to equip. Long story short, I am trying to find out who the original FAs are, and who actually bolted the place. I think it's the only logical thing to do before showing up at a crag with a power drill. Maybe you should do the same. If what you intend to do makes sense, these people will be happy to give you the go ahead. Otherwise they'll try to explain to you why you shouldn't, and from there it's your call. At most of these crags a couple of people gave a lot of time, energy, and money into putting up new lines. Even if you think the job is incomplete, or poorly done, if you're not one of these guys, the least you can do is ask them.
|
|
|
|
|
stymingersfink
Jun 4, 2007, 4:20 AM
Post #31 of 36
(968 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
|
Pdizz wrote: thank you ill keep all that in mind see this is the kind of reply in looking for which, to your interpretation, provided you with the only justification necessary to mess with the anchors? Several years ago there was a climb up in Ferguson canyon which is very popular to TR, due to the easy access to the top of the route. zThis fact, when combined with the fact that it is a gear route requiring some skill and a little bit of sack to lead, it is not surprising that it is most-often TR'd by relative n00bs trying to get on something a little more challenging than their standard fare. I had no problem with this, in fact TR'd it extensively in my first year of climbing. However, what I came to have issues with was someone's abortion of an attempt to replace the anchors, which by any estimation were in perfectly good shape as they were. The offending anchor replacer butchered the job, leaving one stud sticking out of the rock, hammered over in an unsuccessful attempt to remove, in addition to two additional bolts placed in a somewhat less than ideal configuration. It became an eyesore which was not necessary, simply because someone wished to perform a "community service" where one was in fact not necessary. Three years later the mangled stud is still there, a testament to one's bungled attempt to do something good. Someone with more experience might have pulled the bolt successfully and recycled the hole or perhaps cleanly patched it, thereby minimizing the visual impact to the top of the crag. Instead it has been left as a reminder to others why some things should be learned at the elbow of someone more skilled than they, in this case bolt replacement. as mentioned by myself above, contact the ASCA and try to find one of their volunteers who replaces bolts and anchors in your area. You will learn far more firsthand from one of their volunteers about doing a good, quality bolt replacement than you ever will from this forum.
|
|
|
|
|
desertdude420
Jun 4, 2007, 6:01 AM
Post #32 of 36
(943 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 20, 2006
Posts: 294
|
NEVER add new bolts. Just replace bad ones.
|
|
|
|
|
al_piner
Jun 4, 2007, 3:53 PM
Post #33 of 36
(915 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 20, 2006
Posts: 142
|
Pdizzy : Why don't you join a rock gym . They have bomber anchors ( none of those pesky equalizing issues ! ) and lots of safe , close clip points ( no hassle of placing that 'Trad Gear' stuff ). It might even be air conditioned and have vending machines with the latest energy drinks !!!
|
|
|
|
|
time2clmb
Jun 4, 2007, 4:05 PM
Post #34 of 36
(910 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 473
|
Pdizz wrote: im just trying to help out, dick why have wrongly paced bolts? theres no reason for it AT ALL sure, you can make an anchor but, is there a reason? NO, i checked if there where maybe reason for the anchors being set up the way they are. so im willing to put a little money and effort into making it better got problem with that THEN DONT CLIMB IT. simple as that. dont reply for the sake of arguing, i dont need advice from a moron Look you little bitch. I anwered your question and you got your panties in a bunch. As I said in my second post. Perhaps they are like that for a reason. Yes, there are reasons why they might be offset like that. I would love to see you talk to people to their face as you do on this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 6, 2007, 4:57 AM
Post #35 of 36
(865 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
hahah good one moron you sure know alot about gyms any recommendations?
|
|
|
|
|
Pdizz
Jun 6, 2007, 5:05 AM
Post #36 of 36
(857 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 84
|
In reply to: Look you little bitch. I anwered your question and you got your panties in a bunch. As I said in my second post. Perhaps they are like that for a reason. Yes, there are reasons why they might be offset like that. I would love to see you talk to people to their face as you do on this thread. whos panties are in a bunch?
|
|
|
|
|
|