I think the normal distribution is still a viable model for the example being discussed. The hypothetical distribution had a mean of 11.5 and a std dev of 0.5. For all practical purposes, the whole normal distribution lies between -6 and +6 SDs. -6 SD in this case is 8.5 >> 0, the absolute limit of the breaking strength, so a normal distribution is still a viable model.

Jay

for all the people making the ridiculous argument that since climbing is dangerous nobody should sue for anything... well your logic is horribly flawed.

I wont piece by piece destroy your argument but I will give you this example. Cars are dangerous. So you get in your car, turn the key and start driving.... you are going 70mph and the wheels fall off the car flips and you are now in a wheel chair.

Would anyone in their right mind argue that since driving a car is dangerous you shouldnt be able to sue? Probably not.

Same example could be made for airplanes, guns and so on. Companies are making money because they are selling a product that is suppose to serve a specific purpose. If it fails in doing that and someone is hurt that company, in my mind, should have to pay for it or at the very least should have to go to court and explain why they should not pay for the damages.

Better yet what if you doctor said that heart surgery waas dangerous. Your preceded to go through with the surgery and they left a tool in you that in turn caused a horrific infection that left you severely disabled. Would you still agree that hey life is dangerous bro...? The answer is no and that argument should compeltely cease because it defies sense.

Sure you should check your stuff out and take only the risks you are comfortable with but at the same time there are standards that should be adhered to in all types of products and services....

Besides, I don't think there's a reason to sue at all, as many have said climbing is dangerous, and people are responsable for their decisions. Even in the case mentioned above, there shouldn't be a lawsuit. I believe that these types of lawsuits should NOT EXIST Why? because life is dangerous, it'll always be DEAL WITH IT. and in any case, whether it is climbing, driving, sleeping or juggling explosives, YOU are responsable for your decisions, you are responsible for yourself!

I highly doubt you would hold true to that argument that these types of lawsuits should not exist if someone screwed you over when there was no way you could prevent it from happening. If someone severly attacked you while you were sleeping, I'm sure you would feel entitled to compensation for medical bills, and if for some bizarre reason you didn't, I'm sure you would still feel that the attacker should spend a certain amount of his/her time behind bars... even though somehow you currently claim that you would be alright with it because life is inherently dangerous and you are fully responsible for yourself in all situations.

Again i would refer you to earlier posts -- CCH posted a recall, and I can only assume that the break has happened to recalled aliens. you can check the supertopo forum for actual stress tests if you want to know, but to be real honest some gear isn't good. A company with a bad reputation won't have dealers that sell their product, and the public won't be buying it. Holding people to standards by means of litigation is the wrong way about it in my opinion.


To help gather my broken sentances, ill present you with a scenario. Joe buys 3 cams from Black Diamond off of Ebay. The cams break, Joe is paralyzed. Who does Joe sue? We have no way to tell the origins of the Aliens as was read in the report posted. He may have found them on the ground for all we know, at the bottom of the Zodiac.

Just playing Devils advocate there, but you have to consider these things before weighing in whether something needs a lawyer to piss on everyones fun

What we're all forgetting here, is that there is another way of bringing CCH to its knees if we really mind to. If nobody buys CCH gear, then the company will have no income and thus will end broke. This is by far more difficult to do than suing, but of course is much more effective. If CCH gains a bad reputation (and I trust it already has), and people stop buying their gear, then nobody will need to sue anyone.

Besides, I don't think there's a reason to sue at all, as many have said climbing is dangerous, and people are responsable for their decisions. Even in the case mentioned above, there shouldn't be a lawsuit. I believe that these types of lawsuits should NOT EXIST Why? because life is dangerous, it'll always be DEAL WITH IT. and in any case, whether it is climbing, driving, sleeping or juggling explosives, YOU are responsable for your decisions, you are responsible for yourself!

...If this does become a court case, I think the best defense (which won't work anyway) will be to say, "Hey, with all shit that went down previously, why on Earth did you trust CCH's word in the first place?"

- it's juries that award outragous sums of money for silly things like hot coffee spilling in ones lap.

...The simple truth is that Aliens are suspect unless tested individually, in controlled circumstances, in a drop tower, by somebody more competent than CCH...

... an astonishingly large ammount of people I've talked to are completely uninformed about any of the trouble with CCH. And very few people I've talked to outside of this site are aware of anything beyond the dimpled cam recall.

\A suit should bring much greater publicity to the faulty aliens and protect the unknowing climber that still thinks his dimpled aliens are bomber.

Out of the total climbing population that has purchased aliens, how many actually pay attention to sites such as RC/Supertopo/etc? A majority? Certainly not 100%. And many of those people that are climbing on aliens manufactured during the recalled period and after may be doing so in ignorance of the problems.

Do yall think there will be more or less climbing gyms in 20 years? I have no clue but I suspect there will be far less as the next generation comes into its own.

I think climbing is peeking right about now.

DMT

The thing that I really dislike about all of this, is that aliens are such a great product and represented to me a great "independent" design and manufacturing company that brought an innovative product to the masses.

...Or, would you prefer that the equipment came into being from such a great idea but was actually manufactured and tested in a way that was appropriate to it's potential life-saving or life-taking use?

Which of course raises the question, why couldn't the static testing done by CCH tell them apart? Unfortunately, I don't have a good answer for that, only speculation. And there's been plenty of that already.

Bob "BoKu" K.

Ford/Firestone certainly are mainstream companies (and I disagree with much of the result of that episode), but they had problems. Just because they

I think climbing is peeking right about now.

DMT

I disagree with that in a minor way: From the failure modes so far observed, I believe that the dynamic properties of the device are not in question. I believe that static testing should be adequate to tell good Aliens from bad ones.

Bob "BoKu" K.