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scrambled_legs
Jul 29, 2007, 2:24 AM
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My point is, young kids do not understand consequences. How many times have you seen kids seriously burned playing with fire, or hands blown apart from playing with fireworks, hands shredded from sticking them in the blender, or skulls broken from climbing on things.
It was their choice but it is a parents responsibility to protect CHILDREN until they are old enough and wise enough to make an informed decision on their own. It is not up to the parent to decide whether or not they want to protect them, it is something that is human and required.
So you don't have any problem with an 8 year old being encouraged to free solo? What about a 4 year old? Do you have a line when it becomes wrong or anybody that wants to do anything has that right?? Do any of you have children of your own??? Do any of you stop them from doing anything extremely dangerous??? How many appendages do they have left???
GET IT????
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Basta916
Jul 29, 2007, 2:43 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: My point is, young kids do not understand consequences. How many times have you seen kids seriously burned playing with fire, or hands blown apart from playing with fireworks, hands shredded from sticking them in the blender, or skulls broken from climbing on things. It was their choice but it is a parents responsibility to protect CHILDREN until they are old enough and wise enough to make an informed decision on their own. It is not up to the parent to decide whether or not they want to protect them, it is something that is human and required. So you don't have any problem with an 8 year old being encouraged to free solo? What about a 4 year old? Do you have a line when it becomes wrong or anybody that wants to do anything has that right?? Do any of you have children of your own??? Do any of you stop them from doing anything extremely dangerous??? How many appendages do they have left??? GET IT????
its great that you take care of your kids, and if you wanna Helicopter over them, its your thing to do...
but why should anyone tell people half a way around world how to take care of there children,....
my grandpa lived to be 102......you know why??????
He minded his own business ( true story)
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drm1st
Jul 29, 2007, 2:44 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: My point is, young kids do not understand consequences. How many times have you seen kids seriously burned playing with fire, or hands blown apart from playing with fireworks, hands shredded from sticking them in the blender, or skulls broken from climbing on things. It was their choice but it is a parents responsibility to protect CHILDREN until they are old enough and wise enough to make an informed decision on their own. It is not up to the parent to decide whether or not they want to protect them, it is something that is human and required. So you don't have any problem with an 8 year old being encouraged to free solo? What about a 4 year old? Do you have a line when it becomes wrong or anybody that wants to do anything has that right?? Do any of you have children of your own??? Do any of you stop them from doing anything extremely dangerous??? How many appendages do they have left??? GET IT????
Isn't it great that we live in a world where an indvidual like yourself can voice his opinion. And whether that opinion is right or wrong, it is still yours to voice. However do not confuse the right to choose with the belief that everyone should belive and live like yourself. You obviously don't understand when it comes to difference in cultures. Until a certain culture decides what it is doing, is right, wrong or dangerous, it is not for you to judge. You were not raised with their beliefs.
I am not saying that the judgment of parents are right. I am not saying that deaths of younger children are correct, but respect the difference in culture, though you may not believe in what they choose. Do not be arrogant, which is the air and attitude you probably have unintentionally portrayed.
I for instance would not want any of my children, nieces or nephews to do that. However, that is my way here. I was not raised with the tradition as they have there. I may not agree with them, but I respect there differences. You appear to be defending 2 items, freedom of choice, and abuse of children? Which are you attacking?
A child getting beaten in front of you is one thing. A child being raised with what is customary to their culture or beliefs, but different form yours is a whole other area.
Fine you feel it is dangerous. Leave it at that and quit preaching. You are coming off as ignorant and arrogant.
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scrambled_legs
Jul 29, 2007, 3:04 AM
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Wow Basta that's a great story about your Grandpa, mine died at 63 from cancer. How that has any relevance to this is beyond me.
The great thing about America is when we see something that goes completely against our every belief we can speak out against it. I just can't believe I'm the only one doing that and that some idiot would write "Excellent radical shit" after a series of photos of someone dying. I mean did that moron say the same thing when Michael Reardon died???
It doesn't matter how you look at it, death is tragic and a very small community that proudly sports 1-2 per month on average including children disgusts me.
I don't know if any of your close friends have died climbing yet but if they did I'm sure you would understand where I'm coming from. It's something that we don't expect to happen but it is always a possibility. When it does happen, you really question whether the sport is worth it. After all, that is all climbing is, a sport. You don't ever want to see it happen to someone you love but when you see it happening to innocent children on a regular basis, you really have to question what the fuck the point is, especially for a sport.
I don't care if you're my next door neighbor or someone on the other side of the planet. If you show the kind of disregard for your childs life as the parents in this video, you are an fool. It doesn't matter if culture made you into that fool, you are still a fool. If life is so great for them, maybe they should respect it a little more.
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scrambled_legs
Jul 29, 2007, 3:23 AM
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drm1st wrote: Isn't it great that we live in a world where an indvidual like yourself can voice his opinion. And whether that opinion is right or wrong, it is still yours to voice. However do not confuse the right to choose with the belief that everyone should belive and live like yourself. You obviously don't understand when it comes to difference in cultures. Until a certain culture decides what it is doing, is right, wrong or dangerous, it is not for you to judge. You were not raised with their beliefs.
So there is no right and wrong except what that specific community believes? What if I told you I grew up in Stolby, would I then have a right to speak out against my own culture?? What about the Islamic extremists whose culture involves raping and killing a girl who was sex outside of marriage in order to restore honor to the family?? Do I have a right to speak out against that??? Stolby's culture kills innocent children before they are mature enough to realise what they are risking and I am against that. No, I don't believe that is either arrogant or ignorant. Not preaching just pissed at those who think it's cool after watching a video where a child dies.
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stymingersfink
Jul 29, 2007, 3:39 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: You're actually defending suicide as an acceptable action???
They make choices which you or I might not make, while feeling comfortable un-roped on terrain which would probably scare the shit outta me (and yourself obviously). They risk their life doing something which just might cost them the life they risk. This, I suspect, makes the rest of their lives all the more worth living. They are (I imagine) more acutely aware of how quickly life might end, and some of the myriad ways in which that end might happen.
To characterize such things as suicide and impose your views upon another would be to do yourself a grave disfavor. If I were to impose my views and opinions upon you, you would bristle at such a thing (and rightly so, I believe). Governments the world over do this to their citizens already.
Did you see the part where some of the younger children who may not be familiar with the route are being tagged with a safety line? It's obvious they care about their children, certainly enough to educate them about the dangers of participating in the activity, and enough to know that one cannot shelter their offspring from every danger their entire lives. If such attitudes were more prevalent here in the U.S. (perhaps regrettably, where I reside, and perhaps you as well, IDK) children would be given a more realistic exposure to the dangers inherent in living, such that they might be able to make more educated choices when they are without adult supervision.
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scrambled_legs
Jul 29, 2007, 3:52 AM
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I don't believe they are comitting suicide. This is where the suicide comment came from.
notapplicable wrote: We are all going to die so the argument that it is rude or unethical to impose your death on the loved ones in your life doesnt hold any water with me. The same goes for suicide, how could I expect my emotional feelings to weigh on someone's decision to end there life. I can't count the times I have heard people say that suicide is "the most selfish thing a person can do". Thats total B.S.
N/A was saying that it is a persons right to commit suicide and we can't critisize it. I completely disagree after having several people around me take the easy way out and watching their families suffer years later.
Out of all the arguments, yours is the most sane and understandable. In fact its almost convincing but you still can't hide from the fact that 1-2 people die there every month on average. Kind of hard to justify that risk with any reward. If your life is so screwed up that you have to put it on the line in order to appreciate life, then maybe there's a bigger problem that needs addressing.
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drm1st
Jul 29, 2007, 3:54 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: drm1st wrote: Isn't it great that we live in a world where an indvidual like yourself can voice his opinion. And whether that opinion is right or wrong, it is still yours to voice. However do not confuse the right to choose with the belief that everyone should belive and live like yourself. You obviously don't understand when it comes to difference in cultures. Until a certain culture decides what it is doing, is right, wrong or dangerous, it is not for you to judge. You were not raised with their beliefs. So there is no right and wrong except what that specific community believes? What if I told you I grew up in Stolby, would I then have a right to speak out against my own culture?? What about the Islamic extremists whose culture involves raping and killing a girl who was sex outside of marriage in order to restore honor to the family?? Do I have a right to speak out against that??? Stolby's culture kills innocent children before they are mature enough to realise what they are risking and I am against that. No, I don't believe that is either arrogant or ignorant. Not preaching just pissed at those who think it's cool after watching a video where a child dies.
Who said it's cool? Did anyone on this post say it was cool to watch a child die.
You are being arrogant to believe we all should think like yourself and are therefore getting upset you aren't getting the responses to support your exact opinon. I don't believe anyone wants to see a child harmed. But you must pick your approach carefully to debates like this.
You are being ignorant to the fact that these people are not dragging their kids up the routes kicking and screaming. However, in your mind it is instantly wrong because it is not what you would do. You have not spoken with any of these parents, you have not viewed their lives, you have not gone to even try to understand them. You automatically have viewed them as bad, stamped their children as abused, and condemned them in your mind. Ignorance is defined by the lack of understanding, lack of education, lack of information.
Also, Quit trying to compare a radical extremist community to these individuals climbing routes. (Now your just being ridiculous).
Also, did I say it was wrong for you to voice your opinion? No I did not. But I did say it is wrong to try to pass on your beliefs to everyone because they believe different from you. So you are venting, fine, get it out of your system and be done with it.
News flash, there's a great big world out there. And in that big world live many people. Many people different from yourself. Sometimes what they do you may not agree with. But feel free to go there and start telling some of those parents at Stolby how you feel.
And don't come back at me with wanting to see children hurt. From my last post you know that is not what I ever want to see.
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stymingersfink
Jul 29, 2007, 3:57 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: The analogy with Africa was exactly that, an extreme example of a culture that no-one should respect. Sure it's extreme but if you don't respect that one, why should I respect this one? It's no different, they both involve needless death and suffering except this one involves climbing.
One's freedom to choose their own free association is one I would not infringe upon, until the aforementioned free-association infringes upon the rights of others.
The remainder of your arguments are weak, I think you are both very closed-minded and short sighted. Were you to be flailing in a river appearing to be drowning, knowing it was you, I would think twice before throwing you a rope. Even fish deserve to eat.
I've said enough. Please take your narrow-minded view of this world and take a long walk off a short pier.
Good day, sir.
*Plonk*
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Jul 29, 2007, 4:02 AM)
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scrambled_legs
Jul 29, 2007, 4:04 AM
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drm1st wrote: Who said it's cool? Did anyone on this post say it was cool to watch a child die.
If you look back, the post right after the series of photos showing a soloist die was "Excellent, radical shit." Sorry, but it set me off and if you'd lost a friend climbing in the past you might be able to comprehend why I'm upset.
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scrambled_legs
Jul 29, 2007, 4:10 AM
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stymingersfink
First off thanks for the elementary school jab at the end of your post. Good to see you lecturing me on being close minded and short minded and you can't even hold a mature discussion without resorting to a childish riddle. Brilliant.
So I guess if a cultural traight is clearly wrong we can all speak out against it. But if I believe it is wrong but you don't, I can't speak out against it. I guess I'll move on.
(This post was edited by scrambled_legs on Jul 29, 2007, 4:22 AM)
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Basta916
Jul 29, 2007, 4:11 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: Wow Basta that's a great story about your Grandpa,
use your imagination, live your life, enjoy it and let others do the same as long as they are happy with what they do and not hurting you or others....that being said I believe no one is pushing anyone off the cliff in that video....have a great day....( oh yea, try traveling...and not like a group of missionaries South Koreans in Afganistan...they didnt mind there business, they were pushing there believes on wrong people )
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scrambled_legs
Jul 29, 2007, 4:17 AM
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I've travelled far more places and experienced far more cultures than you have son but thanks for the lecture. Who's preaching to who here?
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drm1st
Jul 29, 2007, 4:19 AM
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stymingersfink wrote: scrambled_legs wrote: The analogy with Africa was exactly that, an extreme example of a culture that no-one should respect. Sure it's extreme but if you don't respect that one, why should I respect this one? It's no different, they both involve needless death and suffering except this one involves climbing. No, Rape anywhere, regardless of culture, is wrong. It infringes upon a basic human freedom, that of choice in one's sexual partners. The example you cited, with the rapists contracting AIDS due to their own violation of another's basic human right, would be perhaps a harsh sort of justice, but it is (IMO) a justice in and of itself. One's freedom to choose their own free association is one I would not infringe upon, until the aforementioned free-association infringes upon the rights of others. The remainder of your arguments are weak, I think you are both very closed-minded and short sighted. Were you to be flailing in a river appearing to be drowning, knowing it was you, I would think twice before throwing you a rope. Even fish deserve to eat. I've said enough. Please take your narrow-minded view of this world and take a long walk off a short pier. Good day, sir.
*Plonk*
LOL...Whoever you throw your rope to, just make sure it's dry treated before you do it. 
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drm1st
Jul 29, 2007, 4:22 AM
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scrambled_legs wrote: drm1st wrote: Who said it's cool? Did anyone on this post say it was cool to watch a child die. If you look back, the post right after the series of photos showing a soloist die was "Excellent, radical shit." Sorry, but it set me off and if you'd lost a friend climbing in the past you might be able to comprehend why I'm upset.
It's all good. Nice little debate back and forth though. Yeah, don't let people get to you on this site either. It can get pretty rough in here.
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gunkjunkie
Jul 29, 2007, 4:49 AM
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Scrambled Legs -
This will probably not win you over - but I'm going to get my $0.02 in anyway. You cannot remove all risks from a child's life. One of the things that I treasure about my parents was that fact that they let me continue horseback riding after I damn near killed myself. It helped me to learn to deal with my fear and was a valuable lesson.
The folks at Stolby have assessed the level of risk and found it suitable as my folks found it suitable for me to continue riding. Would you have had me removed from my parents' custody for their choice?
To be quite blunt, I think that there are other issues that are much more deadly to the welfare of kids in your own nation and culture - childhood hunger, Bush trying to defund medical care for kids and a bloody war that is pulling money from children's educations (fewer dollars going to states for other things means small education budgets), massive amounts of pollution etc. - that you should spend your energy in worrying about. These are risks imposed on people and their children and they often occur as externalities resulting from the decisions of people in government and corporate leadership positions.
Now, I'll get off of my soap box.
Deirdre
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notapplicable
Jul 29, 2007, 5:33 AM
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First: Yes I absolutely defend suicide as a choice people should be able to make for themselves. Its unrelated to the subject and I should not have brought it up, I was just frustrated with the direction you reasoning was taking. And before you even ask, yes I have very real and personal experience with people close to me killing them selves and I fully support there decisions.
Now to the issue at hand. I apologize if my first response seemed crude or insensitive. Its just that, for me the notion that one persons actions or reactions should be governed by another persons expectations is appalling. Now when you start discussing the issue of incouraging other individuals (regardless of age) to engage in activities that put there life on the line I personaly think that it is wrong and have said many times on here ( can post links to the threads if you would like) that I do not encourage soloing. It is a personal choice that the individual has to make for themselves and I feel very strongly about the issue of being free to make those choices.
However I do not believe that Stolby boils down to peer pressure. Under these circumstances I think Stolby is so deeply ingrained into the people and their culture that participation is essentially implied and requires no incoragement. I do admit that I have no first hand experience with these folks and this is simply my impression of how things are based on the evidence available.
I freely admit that they are not only treading in a very gray are they are in fact wallowing in it but I am not prepared to pronounce their actions unethical.
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thomasribiere
Jul 29, 2007, 7:21 AM
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We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us me and you
Is that the Russians love their children too
Sting
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notapplicable
Jul 29, 2007, 7:24 AM
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Indeed.
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mikitta
Jul 29, 2007, 10:05 AM
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I believe Stolby is an excellent case in point that group think suppresses individual common sense. Certainly they have the "choice" - (do they really? I mean, they know they will be thought less well of by family and friends if they choose NOT to climb) ... but their choice is heavily swayed by a "tradition" of reckless boldness.
N/A, you said
In reply to: the notion that one persons actions or reactions should be governed by another persons expectations is appalling
and you also said you did not believe that Stolby was a case . I completely disagree with you. I believe that these people continue this tradition of reckless boldness because it is expected of them from a very early age.
God Bless,
mik
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notapplicable
Jul 29, 2007, 3:45 PM
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When I was a kid I would often try to justify my actions (while trying to avoid punishment) with the argument "but _______ did it first" and with out fail my momma's response was "if ________ jumped off a bridge would you do that too". Unless I was feeling particularly rebellious I would have to begrudgingly admit "no probably not".
Now the issue of Stolby is far more complex than all of that because your dealing with some what off kilter social norms that are influencing the sociopsychological development of the youth with out the benefit of the 'check and balance' of the mother admonishing the behavior. As I said before your talkin very grey areas here but I think the logic still applies. Just because half the town jumps off a bridge doesnt mean you have to, you probably will but you have a choice.
A good example (IMO) from my youth. I was raised in a small rural town in the Shenandoah Valley and where I was raised God was pervasive. I had large amount of extended family in the area, most of whom were either Amish or Mennonite and I was constantly exposed to the faithful. My grandparents (grandad is a pastor) paid for me to go to Christian camp for 5 summers in a row (ages 6-11 I think), I was taken on mission trips and immersed in that world (believe me it is a world unto itself).
Now after all of that here I sit, a devout agnostic (for lack of a better word) without a hint of the holy spirit coursing through my veins. People have a choice, just because your indoctrinated from a young age doesnt mean you have to act as your expected to or have no control over your level of involvement in or commitment to an activity. Ooohhh but the social pressure you say? Well I have been through the public school systems during my teen years and the peer pressure I felt there was nothing compared to the weight put upon a kid at Jesus camp to ask the lord into his heart so that he would be saved from his wicked and sinful ways.
Jesus never got anywhere near my heart and those young kids dont have to climb if they should so choose or they could participate but not to such a degree that they are dancing with death. Either way a world where people are not free to dance that tragic dance is far sadder than one where they do.
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drm1st
Jul 29, 2007, 4:04 PM
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scrambled_legs wrote: I've travelled far more places and experienced far more cultures than you have son but thanks for the lecture. Who's preaching to who here?
LOL...Actually, FYI, with Basta, you may be wrong about that comment... no seriously. I know the guys, he's been to 85 countries all around, if you count russia as the soviet union....hint hint he was affiliated with the news at one point.
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Basta916
Jul 29, 2007, 4:43 PM
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scrambled_legs wrote: I've travelled far more places and experienced far more cultures than you have son but thanks for the lecture. Who's preaching to who here?
You did????
good for you, now pardon me, traveling with a Church group on organized trips doesn't really count...and neither do trips to Canada or Mexico....and sorry you feel like I was preaching, I thought I was just suggesting...
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scrambled_legs
Jul 30, 2007, 12:00 AM
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Mik thanks for the post, good to see not everyone here is blindly following the culture excuse.
notapplicable wrote: I was constantly exposed to the faithful. My grandparents (grandad is a pastor) paid for me to go to Christian camp for 5 summers in a row (ages 6-11 I think), I was taken on mission trips and immersed in that world (believe me it is a world unto itself). Now after all of that here I sit, a devout agnostic (for lack of a better word) without a hint of the holy spirit coursing through my veins. People have a choice, just because your indoctrinated from a young age doesnt mean you have to act as your expected to or have no control over your level of involvement in or commitment to an activity.
N/A were you in agreement with being so pressured to follow God? Do you have relatives who were exposed to the same thing and you feel are leading a mislead life now following God? Are you not an exception to the norm for having stood up against the pressure to conform??? Anyway you look at if you don't follow the group either in your case or in Stolby's you are going to be looked down upon by many people and that pressure is felt at a very young age.
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scrambled_legs
Jul 30, 2007, 12:14 AM
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Basta, I would have thought that someone like yourself who has travelled to slightly more countries then myself would have seen enough shit in this world to realise that some cultures are completely fucked up. Why do they do it, because that's what has always been done. Rape, stonings, cannibalism, etc are completely unacceptable. I find this cultural traight to also be unacceptable and you jump all over me as being narrowminded and ignorant, why? because you disagree with it and are too narrowminded and ignorant to consider that maybe it isn't right.
Who am I to say what's right and wrong? Well I'm the same guy that has the ability to say that rape, stonings and cannibalism is wrong, as do you. It is my opinion, you don't have to agree with it but you also are showing your own ignorance and narrowmindedness for not accepting the possiblity that this act is perfectly acceptable and in no way wrong. We are both as set in our beliefs but just on opposite sides of the fence.
I love how you've now labled me as a biblethumper. I don't believe in God, nor have I ever travelled with a Church or as a missionary. The African trip my friend did was not affiliated with the church but was simply an Aid's mission. Thanks for the stereotype though, that's very open and accepting. By the way isn't condemning their religion a little narrowminded???
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