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andypro
Jul 21, 2007, 2:29 PM
Post #26 of 35
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This is rediculous...so Is tarted an M16 vs AK47 thread as was suggested over in the camp ground 
Lets take the mayhem over there so we can talk about climbing in this one!
Here
Andy P
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jason_martin
Jul 21, 2007, 2:37 PM
Post #27 of 35
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I'm a climbing guide and I've had the opportunity to train units from a few different divisions of the military. One of the jobs I did was to give a group of Marine "Mountain Leaders" advanced alpine training. They showed me the manual from their work at Bridgeport and it looked like the majority of it was lifted from "Freedom of the Hills." They had some extra tactical stuff in there as well about how to move up mountainsides without getting shot. But for the most part it was somewhat modern.
What I found with the teams (three teams from different branches of the military) shouldn't be much of a suprise. Those who were there just to get the training, got it. I doubt they've done much with it since and as such, I'm not sure they'd be able to call up a lot of the idiosyncratic things we taught. Sure they could still probably build an anchor or self-arrest, but the details of different techniques have probably flown away.
However, on each of the teams there were also individuals who were either climbers or on their way to being climbers. Those people were psyched to get the training and were psyched to go do stuff on their own later on. Those guys were super fun to teach. The other guys who weren't all that psyched to be there were a challenge.
I guess my question to those in the military here is, what's the deal? Why don't they pipe climbers into these mountain specific units instead of sending so many guys who are just psyched to do something different all the time (i.e. this week I'm jumping out of airplanes, next week I'm scubba diving, etc.)? It just seemed a little bit like wasted training when it was clear that they weren't going to do anything on their own unless someone told them to.
Jason
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andypro
Jul 21, 2007, 3:06 PM
Post #28 of 35
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Well..a lot of times it's not thier choice. Depending on how you look at it.
I was a climber before I joined the Marines. When I got to my unit I was almost immediately slated to head off the MWTC. The porblem, though, is that there were only about 25 people in my entire company when I got there. We were so hard up for people that there was no chance that I was going anywhere. Once our company did fill up we were already on our workup to join the MEU, and again, I was going nowhere.
The big thing you notice in the military is that 95% are kids (hell, I was a kid when I joined). They've been through some of the toughest basic training int he world (at least in the Marines) and they're full of piss and vinegar, feeling like they can take on the world and come out unscathed. So they want to do as many "cool" things as possible. That and when it comes time for promotion or re-assignment, you look better with more official training on your record.
I think those reasons play a major role in what you noticed. There's a boatload of testosterone floating around combat military units and being the badassest badass is always high on priorities. Very competitive, and doing something like MW training will just add to that.
--Andy P
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justafurnaceman
Jul 22, 2007, 3:09 AM
Post #29 of 35
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You asked why don't they pipe climbers into the mountaineering course. Not all of us climbers are in a position, because of our jobs, to get slotted for that school. The Army isn't going to send some admin clerk, truck driver, or other such jobs to those schools even if they're climbers. I would love to go but I would never use it again inside the Army. I would love to go to Air Assault school and rappel out of helos though, and that's something that might be usefull later.
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paulraphael
Jul 30, 2007, 7:00 PM
Post #30 of 35
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I've climbed with (or around) a number of military and ex-military people over the years, and I've seen a definite change over that time. When I was in college in the late 80s and early 90s. it was just a given that you didn't want to climb with military people or people who had learned in the military. They had bizarre ways of doing just about everything (reminded me of the old line, 'there's the right way, there's the wrong way, and there's the army way' ....)
But nowadays when I see army guys and marine guys climbing at the crags, they use the same gear and techniques as everyone else. Only the haircuts are different.
On a related note, I've always been curious about how helpful standard free climbing techniques would be in a war zone. What are some circumstances where it would make sense to rope up and climb a crag when there might be people shooting at you? Are these techniques for use in emergencies, or are there other tactical reasons to use them?
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andypro
Jul 30, 2007, 9:33 PM
Post #31 of 35
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paulraphael wrote: On a related note, I've always been curious about how helpful standard free climbing techniques would be in a war zone. What are some circumstances where it would make sense to rope up and climb a crag when there might be people shooting at you? Are these techniques for use in emergencies, or are there other tactical reasons to use them?
There are a lot of reasons for it. Not all of them strictly related to infantry combat.
Lets say you have a valley, and in this valley there are numerous strongholds. The "easy" ground is crawling with enemy soldiers constantly on patrol. If you were to send a reconnaissance team into the valley, there is a ery good chance that they'll make contact with one of these patrols. At that point, the enemy knows you're there and will immediately raise thier alert level.
Say you want to bomb or shell this valley, but interspersed with the strongholds are civilian non-combatant houses or farms. You miss...tragedy.
What do you do? send in a forward observer to designate targets and correct fire. But not in the valley, because that would ruin the surprise. Put him on the rim of the valley, in a nice, relatively safe place on the side of a mountain or top of a plateau. Hows he gonna get there? Well, he'll have to climb.
Also, in the above valley, radio tranmissions just plain wont make it out. So this forward controller takes a radio operator with a relay with him so that troops in the valley can have direct communication out of it.
Some more direct combat related:
Above mentioned team also takes a couple of snipers with them to help cover the valley with large caliber rifles.
Above sniper team could go by themselves.
A small team of climbers can fix ropes for a larger force to make an assault on a cliff top.
A platoon or company of mountaineering trained troops can root out strongholds or camps in the high country (this went on in Afghanistan, for instance, and was quite usual in WW2 in the alps and Korea).
A team tasked with rescuing a pilot that ejected over mountainous terrain where a helicopter cant, or wont, fly.
Gaining the high ground to control a roadway or ambush an oncoming convoy or large movement of troops (this isn't a very good situation for a hasty ambush).
There are plenty more reasons...this is just a few of the more specific examples.
--Andy P
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thegreytradster
Jul 31, 2007, 1:55 AM
Post #33 of 35
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A couple of years ago I ran into a Sgt and a Lt,USMC at Tahquitz that were instructors. At the time it was a requirement that each company needed a ,(Combat Climber) to be rated SOC(Special opperations capable)
Andypro's post pretty much covers the present day rationale and training goals. If you peruse the older FM manuals a bit there was much more emphasis on preparation of fixed lines, rope bridges, hauling systems etc. There has been an evolution away from the "combat climber" serving as a "sherpa" preparing fixed routes and to a teacher of climbing techniques to those without the specalized training. That was also how it was described to me by these guys. Things have evolved well past what's in a 97 manual.
Ten years ago or so I ran into the entire training contingent from the Army mountain warfare school in Alaska at J Tree. The equipment and knowledge level then was an order of magnitude behind what it is now.
There was a concerted effort to raise the training levels imediately post 9/11 to the highest levels possible. I'm sure they signed non disclosures and won't talk, but the training involved some of the best guides and schools in the country in some pretty intense programs.
(This post was edited by thegreytradster on Jul 31, 2007, 1:57 AM)
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paulraphael
Aug 8, 2007, 4:10 PM
Post #34 of 35
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Cool, Andypro, very interesting.
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