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cchas
Jul 23, 2007, 2:43 PM
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Looking at 80% of the threads in this section, you would believe that trad climbing is just about gear. I find that this is stupid since I find gear and good gear placements as the easiest, and most boring part of it all. I find technique, like having to deal with overhanging ringlocks, and the mental aspects as far more interesting then comparing and contrasting hexes, tri-cams and cams. Anyone elses thoughts?
(This post was edited by cchas on Jul 23, 2007, 2:44 PM)
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dingus
Jul 23, 2007, 2:51 PM
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The essence of trad is 'ground up.' On sight free solo is the ultimate trad expression, so no.... trad is not really *just* about the gear. You start at the bottom and climb to the top, THAT'S trad. DMT
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moose_droppings
Jul 23, 2007, 3:02 PM
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cchas wrote: Looking at 80% of the threads in this section, you would believe that trad climbing is just about gear. I find that this is stupid since I find gear and good gear placements as the easiest, and most boring part of it all. I find technique, like having to deal with overhanging ringlocks, and the mental aspects as far more interesting then comparing and contrasting hexes, tri-cams and cams. Anyone elses thoughts? Great, maybe you could give me some pointers because sometimes I find a good gear placement tuff at best.
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dynamo_
Jul 23, 2007, 3:09 PM
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Dingus is spot on. The amount of gear related questions in the trad forum is related to the large ratio of folks on this site that are just starting out and have questions about the mandatorily (unless you are free soloing) required stuff that goes with it.
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cchas
Jul 23, 2007, 3:10 PM
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I agree that you don't always get good gear. Heck for a 2 year period, I just did R/X rated routes, but when the gear isn't there, it isn't there. Then the game is about the mental aspect of it. And some days you are up to it and some days you aren't. This for me is probably THE most fascinating part about it. The next most fascinating part is working out the moves, and the places it brings you. For me gear just allows me to go where I would like to go, in the cleanest manner.
(This post was edited by cchas on Jul 23, 2007, 3:13 PM)
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dynamo_
Jul 23, 2007, 3:13 PM
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cchas wrote: For me gear just allows me to go where I would like to go, in the cleanest manner. Yessiree.
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8flood8
Jul 23, 2007, 3:30 PM
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is it trad or is climbing
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moose_droppings
Jul 23, 2007, 3:40 PM
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cchas wrote: .... but when the gear isn't there, it isn't there. Then the game is about the mental aspect of it. Even with good gear below me, I still find that part of the mental aspect.
In reply to: For me gear just allows me to go where I would like to go, in the cleanest manner. This really does sum it up.
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fracture
Jul 23, 2007, 3:51 PM
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"Trad" is a word that means more than one thing. So. Yes and no.
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cchas
Jul 23, 2007, 3:58 PM
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fracture wrote: "Trad" is a word that means more than one thing. So. Yes and no. So if its just about the gear, or it is defined by the gear, .... wouldn't that just suck. Isn't it so much more, and so much less then that.
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dingus
Jul 23, 2007, 4:22 PM
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fracture wrote: "Trad" is a word that means more than one thing. So. Yes and no. If you want to know about trad, ask a sport climber. Makes perfect sense to me! DMT
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chalkfree
Jul 23, 2007, 4:34 PM
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Trad is the leave no trace ethic expressed vertically.
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jt512
Jul 23, 2007, 4:37 PM
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chalkfree wrote: Trad is the leave no trace ethic expressed vertically. I don't know whether to laugh or throw up. Jay
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grover
Jul 23, 2007, 4:53 PM
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jt512 wrote: chalkfree wrote: Trad is the leave no trace ethic expressed vertically. I don't know whether to laugh or throw up. Jay throw-up then laugh. less chance of choking.
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zealotnoob
Jul 23, 2007, 4:59 PM
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Right. Just as climbing in general isn't all about how tight you buy your shoes or shorts, whether or not and how you use a gri-gri or what fluid you slosh on your rope. The experience we seek is more abstract and difficult to express. Tradexistentialism : just as Satre had the individual ultimately responsible for defining his existence, the trad leader--undirected by pre-placed anchors, beta or other preconcepts--is ultimately responsible for his climb. Some feel that existentialism is a perview of pessimism. They think that life suffers without external meaning. But that is missing the point. It's not that you "HAVE to," you "GET to" discover you're own meaning and become the sole author of your existence. When a trad leader decks because he gets pulled off by heinous rope drag and his nuts zipper (insert majid sketch here), he has only himself to blame. When he successfully summits a shear wall, with nothing other than his strength, cunning, wit and few chosen tools, he stands at the forefront of the realization of the individual. Then he goes to work, gets all hyped up on coffee and spends way too much time on RC.com.
(This post was edited by zealotnoob on Jul 23, 2007, 6:54 PM)
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ksolem
Jul 23, 2007, 5:08 PM
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Traditional climbing is a style thing. It is not simply about gear, although how gear gets used is a point of style. For example, Magical Mystery Tour at Tahquitz Rock is a Trad climb despite it's use of bolts. Ground up. Protection placed by a leader. Boldness may be required, which can also be an element of style. Another point of style: getting in over your head on a trad climb can have very different consequences than on a sport route. Wise decision making can be required.
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coastal_climber
Jul 23, 2007, 5:33 PM
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cchas wrote: Looking at 80% of the threads in this section, you would believe that trad climbing is just about gear. I find that this is stupid since I find gear and good gear placements as the easiest, and most boring part of it all. I find technique, like having to deal with overhanging ringlocks, and the mental aspects as far more interesting then comparing and contrasting hexes, tri-cams and cams. Anyone elses thoughts? Try aid if you want something just about gear. >Cam
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Oscar_the_Grouch
Jul 23, 2007, 5:53 PM
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Trad is rad coz I feel manly when I talk about it at the gym. Grover once told me that San Fran's gay scene was started when the old school yosemite dudes kicked out all the sport climbers. I don't know if thats true or not, but that's what he told me.
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CinnamonJohnson
Jul 23, 2007, 6:05 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_climbing Here guys, I think this should settle it for you...
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livinonasandbar
Jul 23, 2007, 6:25 PM
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It's about problem solving... (route finding, protection, belays, rope management, the descent, etc.)
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dingus
Jul 23, 2007, 6:28 PM
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Aid climbing IS trad climbing. Ground UP baby. Lose your blinders people! DMT
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psprings
Jul 23, 2007, 6:56 PM
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Yeah, I think you're right, the forums can disproportionately seem to focus on the "gear" side instead of the "climbing technique" but just because the forums tend to reflect that, I don't think that it means that when people are climbing that they are only doing it because they like gear. For me, the whole reason that I trad climb is because of the freedom that it gives you: pick a crack, climb a mountain, whatever, you're not reliant on bolts. Different people have different reasons for trad climbing. For some people it may well be that they just like gear. I think the problem is, it's hard to talk about why you like it or technique and actually be able to keep a discussion going. "The other day I was on this route that had a crux of a sidepull cross-over high-step that was super tricky and then turned into a tips lie-back, blah, blah, blah..." The problem is, most of the technique questions get solved because you finished the climb, hence you've answered your own question. Plus the fact that it's hard to convey technique and climbing moves with words on a forum. Probably the reason that people talk about gear so much is because after the climb they keep thinking, "why did I bring so much freaking gear? What do I really need on my rack" or "how could I cut down on all those clusters that I had at every belay" or any number of other questions that would make the climbing more pleasant and more focused on the climbing instead or gear-related issues (didn't bring enough-sketching, brought too much-weighed-down, etc). If you deal with all of the gear related thoughts on a forum, then you don't have to deal with them on the rock. My reason for asking gear questions on the forums is to come up with a rack that I'm happy with in most situations that allows me to climb my best, not focus on the gear (too little, or too much, it was an alien and would it hold?, whatever), and have fun exploring some multipitch wall somewhere. Heck, I just want to reduce any unnecessary suffering, LOL. That's just my opinion and what I see in the forums. You might be right that some people just collect gear and like talking about it. I don't think it means that people aren't focused on climbing technique, though. I think that's just because climbing technique is difficult to talk about and discuss and usually is irrelevant unless you didn't make it up the route... Peter ps- maybe RC.com should start a more technique-focused trad forum?
(This post was edited by psprings on Jul 23, 2007, 7:01 PM)
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dpurf
Jul 23, 2007, 7:01 PM
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Sport Climbing is defined by its gear more than Traditional or Aid climbing. Think about it and the limitation sport climbing has. 95% are 90 or less. You never top out on a climb and always get lowered or you have to rap down. Bolts are mandatory.
(This post was edited by dpurf on Jul 23, 2007, 7:02 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Jul 23, 2007, 7:13 PM
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hmmm...and I thought it was always about my nuts. Silly me.
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climb_eng
Jul 23, 2007, 7:41 PM
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Some of the comments here are fucking ridiculous. Forget about the 'spiritual experience', leave-no-trace ethics, ground-up climbing or any other such bullshit. 'Spiritual experience' - Whatever turns your crank I suppose... but you can also have spiritual experiences while masturbating, watching porn and eating a bag of cheetos. Different strokes! Either way, it's not what defines the activity Leave-no-trace ethics - If trampled plants, chalk on the wall, remains of fires and beer cans lieing around are experesions of leave-no-trace then you might be on to something. Ground-up climbing - The only true ground-up climbers are the ones that show up with no beta, and just climb a line cause it looks good. This may be what trad climbing was 25 or 50 years ago, however today the vast majority of trad climbers are burning up existing routes, loaded with beta. Furthermore, if ground-up is the definition, a sport climber could just as easily climb a route ground-up... I've certainly hopped on sport routes with no information about the route, other then seeing a couple of bolts in the rock. It's not about gear, gear is what facilitates the process. At the end of the day it all comes down to commitment and risk. Trad climbing requires a higher commitment and more risk than does sport climbing. The reward is the means to climb up a lot more things than you could/would sport climbing.
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jt512
Jul 23, 2007, 7:44 PM
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climb_eng wrote: Some of the comments here are fucking ridiculous. Forget about the 'spiritual experience', leave-no-trace ethics, ground-up climbing or any other such bullshit. 'Spiritual experience' - Whatever turns your crank I suppose... but you can also have spiritual experiences while masturbating, watching porn and eating a bag of cheetos. Different strokes! Either way, it's not what defines the activity Leave-no-trace ethics - If trampled plants, chalk on the wall, remains of fires and beer cans lieing around are experesions of leave-no-trace then you might be on to something. Ground-up climbing - The only true ground-up climbers are the ones that show up with no beta, and just climb a line cause it looks good. This may be what trad climbing was 25 or 50 years ago, however today the vast majority of trad climbers are burning up existing routes, loaded with beta. Furthermore, if ground-up is the definition, a sport climber could just as easily climb a route ground-up... I've certainly hopped on sport routes with no information about the route, other then seeing a couple of bolts in the rock. It's not about gear, gear is what facilitates the process. At the end of the day it all comes down to commitment and risk. Trad climbing requires a higher commitment and more risk than does sport climbing. You were doing really well until that last sentence. Jay
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Gmburns2000
Jul 23, 2007, 7:55 PM
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climb_eng wrote: Some of the comments here are fucking ridiculous. Forget about the 'spiritual experience', leave-no-trace ethics, ground-up climbing or any other such bullshit. 'Spiritual experience' - Whatever turns your crank I suppose... but you can also have spiritual experiences while masturbating, watching porn and eating a bag of cheetos. Different strokes! Either way, it's not what defines the activity Leave-no-trace ethics - If trampled plants, chalk on the wall, remains of fires and beer cans lieing around are experesions of leave-no-trace then you might be on to something. Ground-up climbing - The only true ground-up climbers are the ones that show up with no beta, and just climb a line cause it looks good. This may be what trad climbing was 25 or 50 years ago, however today the vast majority of trad climbers are burning up existing routes, loaded with beta. Furthermore, if ground-up is the definition, a sport climber could just as easily climb a route ground-up... I've certainly hopped on sport routes with no information about the route, other then seeing a couple of bolts in the rock. It's not about gear, gear is what facilitates the process. At the end of the day it all comes down to commitment and risk. Trad climbing requires a higher commitment and more risk than does sport climbing. The reward is the means to climb up a lot more things than you could/would sport climbing. I'll second that by saying that it's a well known fact that the size of guy's rack is directly proportional to the size of his girl...oh, nevermind.
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dingus
Jul 23, 2007, 7:55 PM
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climb_eng wrote: The only true ground-up climbers are the ones that show up with no beta, and just climb a line cause it looks good. Yes that's what we do. But he asked about trad CLIMBING, not trad CLIMBERS.
In reply to: a sport climber could just as easily climb a route ground-up... Sure... if they learn trad first. Otherwise, no, its a top down enterprise and the subsequent clippers are relagated to following the herd and staying on the designated trails. Not that there's anything wrong with that. DMT
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dynamo_
Jul 23, 2007, 7:59 PM
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climb_eng wrote: ...'Spiritual experience' - Whatever turns your crank I suppose... but you can also have spiritual experiences while masturbating, watching porn and eating a bag of cheetos. Different strokes! You, sir, must be an idiot.
climb_eng wrote: Leave-no-trace ethics - If trampled plants, chalk on the wall, remains of fires and beer cans lieing around are experesions of leave-no-trace then you might be on to something. Beer cans, eh? Not the cheetos bags you leave behind at crowded, dirty, sport crags?
climb_eng wrote: ...Furthermore, if ground-up is the definition, a sport climber could just as easily climb a route ground-up... I've certainly hopped on sport routes with no information about the route, other then seeing a couple of bolts in the rock. Wrong.
climb_eng wrote: It's not about gear, gear is what facilitates the process. At the end of the day it all comes down to commitment and risk. Trad climbing requires a higher commitment and more risk than does sport climbing. . Getting warmer.
climb_eng wrote: The reward is the means to climb up a lot more things than you could/would sport climbing. Especially if you want to avoid Cheetos eating, Manpri wearing, sport climbers...gawd.
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notapplicable
Jul 23, 2007, 10:11 PM
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jt512 wrote: climb_eng wrote: Some of the comments here are fucking ridiculous. Forget about the 'spiritual experience', leave-no-trace ethics, ground-up climbing or any other such bullshit. 'Spiritual experience' - Whatever turns your crank I suppose... but you can also have spiritual experiences while masturbating, watching porn and eating a bag of cheetos. Different strokes! Either way, it's not what defines the activity Leave-no-trace ethics - If trampled plants, chalk on the wall, remains of fires and beer cans lieing around are experesions of leave-no-trace then you might be on to something. Ground-up climbing - The only true ground-up climbers are the ones that show up with no beta, and just climb a line cause it looks good. This may be what trad climbing was 25 or 50 years ago, however today the vast majority of trad climbers are burning up existing routes, loaded with beta. Furthermore, if ground-up is the definition, a sport climber could just as easily climb a route ground-up... I've certainly hopped on sport routes with no information about the route, other then seeing a couple of bolts in the rock. It's not about gear, gear is what facilitates the process. At the end of the day it all comes down to commitment and risk. Trad climbing requires a higher commitment and more risk than does sport climbing. You were doing really well until that last sentence. Jay ?...
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jcrew
Jul 23, 2007, 10:41 PM
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trad. is about fear, not gear.
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hiyapokey
Jul 23, 2007, 10:42 PM
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So according to this wiki definition "Traditional and sport climbing (currently the two main categories of rock climbing styles)", what is bouldering sport or trad.
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Galen
Jul 24, 2007, 12:24 AM
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I thought bouldering was nonurban parkour.
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climbsomething
Jul 24, 2007, 12:51 AM
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dpurf wrote: Sport Climbing is defined by its gear more than Traditional or Aid climbing. Think about it and the limitation sport climbing has. 95% are 90 or less. You never top out on a climb and always get lowered or you have to rap down. Bolts are mandatory. Not in my experience, though perhaps in yours. But I know of plenty of long or multi-pitch sport routes. And as for not topping out- well, you don't usually top out at the Creek, do you? Chains a-dangle on the wall. (interestingly, some of the strongdudes I know call the Creek sport climbing with cams) And even at Jacks Canyon, the much-maligned sport crag, I have had to "top out" (bonus junk moves up to a pebble ledge) just to finish some 40-foot 5.8s. And wait, sport climbing defined by its gear MORE than aid? Ex-squeeze me?
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notapplicable
Jul 24, 2007, 1:12 AM
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The simplest answer to you question may be no, it is not about the gear which is simply a means to and end, that end being access to the vertical world. But in truth the gear is an integral part of safely exploring unknown vertical terrain and is a craft (some may also argue, art) unto it's self. In the world of trad (AKA gear routes) you will soon notice that success often hinges on confidence and a level head which allows you to work difficult or unknown moves often well above your last piece. IMO this is most easily achieved through a complete understanding of how your gear is supposed to and actually does function and the most proficient use of that gear to achieve your desired end (presumably safety). Simply put, knowing the art of gear allows you to shrug the weight of worry and focus on the climbing. Even more simply, knowing how to use gear well can up your redpoint and onsite level!
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dpurf
Jul 24, 2007, 2:07 AM
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climbsomething wrote: Not in my experience, though perhaps in yours. But I know of plenty of long or multi-pitch sport routes. And as for not topping out- well, you don't usually top out at the Creek, do you? Chains a-dangle on the wall. (interestingly, some of the strongdudes I know call the Creek sport climbing with cams) I would like you to fill a, lets says guide book the size of Shelf Road with the Multi-pitch sport climbs the US has. Like I said 95% of the sport climbs out there are 90 ft or less. Oh and i love the way you defend your statement by the uses of 'some of the strongdudes I know'. Oh and by the way Super Crack of the Desert goes to the top. It is just to bad no one does it, including me.
In reply to: And even at Jacks Canyon, the much-maligned sport crag, I have had to "top out" (bonus junk moves up to a pebble ledge) just to finish some 40-foot 5.8s. Maybe I should not have said, 'Never top out'. But again 95% of sport climbs out there you are getting lowered off and not walking off.
In reply to: And wait, sport climbing defined by its gear MORE than aid? Ex-squeeze me? Maybe I went a little too far including aid climb, but I stand by my statement that Sport Climb is more dependent on gear. Example: you make a road trip to Southern California for some climbing. You want to hit Josh, Tahquitz, Suicide, Williamson (when it re-opens) and the Needles. If you have quickdraws and a rope, how well are you going to do in these areas? Williamson no problem, But the others very limited. But if I have a standard trad rack, I could get on almost all the climbs each area has to offer. I may get some funny looks at Williamson, but i could still climb.
(This post was edited by dpurf on Jul 24, 2007, 2:09 AM)
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jt512
Jul 24, 2007, 3:18 AM
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dpurf wrote: climbsomething wrote: Not in my experience, though perhaps in yours. But I know of plenty of long or multi-pitch sport routes. And as for not topping out- well, you don't usually top out at the Creek, do you? Chains a-dangle on the wall. (interestingly, some of the strongdudes I know call the Creek sport climbing with cams) I would like you to fill a, lets says guide book the size of Shelf Road with the Multi-pitch sport climbs the US has. Like I said 95% of the sport climbs out there are 90 ft or less. But that has nothing to do with which style is "more defined by" gear.
In reply to: In reply to: And even at Jacks Canyon, the much-maligned sport crag, I have had to "top out" (bonus junk moves up to a pebble ledge) just to finish some 40-foot 5.8s. Maybe I should not have said, 'Never top out'. But again 95% of sport climbs out there you are getting lowered off and not walking off. Actually, you shouldn't even have brought up the issue, because it, too, has nothing to do with your main claim.
In reply to: In reply to: And wait, sport climbing defined by its gear MORE than aid? Ex-squeeze me? Maybe I went a little too far including aid climb, but I stand by my statement that Sport Climb is more dependent on gear. Example: you make a road trip to Southern California for some climbing. You want to hit Josh, Tahquitz, Suicide, Williamson (when it re-opens) and the Needles. If you have quickdraws and a rope, how well are you going to do in these areas? Williamson no problem, But the others very limited. But if I have a standard trad rack, I could get on almost all the climbs each area has to offer. I may get some funny looks at Williamson, but i could still climb. You make the claim that sport climbing is more dependent on gear [more than trad climbing appears to be what you mean], and then, by example, demonstrate the very opposite. The reason you can climb at sport areas with a trad rack, but can't climb at trad areas with a sport rack, is because the trad areas are more dependent on gear. The sport rack does not contain the gear that traditional climbing depends on. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 24, 2007, 3:20 AM)
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chalkfree
Jul 24, 2007, 4:31 AM
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What's your deal? Trad climbing really is about getting to the top and leaving little or nothing to mark your passage. I don't know about you, but that's one of the nice things about it in my mind. If you don't agree with me fine, but making light of peoples' opinions is almost never a good way to get them to concede.
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jt512
Jul 24, 2007, 4:56 AM
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chalkfree wrote: What's your deal? Trad climbing really is about getting to the top and leaving little or nothing to mark your passage. If you want to make just make stuff up, be my guest; but don't expect me to agree with you, or not to point out what you're doing. Jay
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wmfork
Jul 24, 2007, 5:13 AM
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dpurf wrote: climbsomething wrote: (interestingly, some of the strongdudes I know call the Creek sport climbing with cams) Oh and i love the way you defend your statement by the uses of ' some of the strongdudes I know'. Oh and by the way Super Crack of the Desert goes to the top. It is just to bad no one does it, including me. Whether you think I pull hard or not, I'll also state that over 90% of established routes in the Creek are sport climbing with cams.
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aerili
Jul 24, 2007, 6:02 AM
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For me, trad climbing is about: * Options: trad gives one a lot more options. You can climb anywhere, including local sport crags (just use your alpine draws if you hafta) or burly, day long-approachesque multi-pitch in true wilderness--or anything in between. Additionally, mixed routes beckon where Quickdraw McGraws fear to tread. * Mental Aspects: I agree with OP here. I have never had to deal with the same kind of mental aspects (i.e. especially intensity of sketch factor) when sport climbing, and I never had to develop the same kind of focused clarity of mind and commitment knowing I really CANNOT fall at certain junctures. (Disclaimer: I also do not climb the R/X sport routes in Tuolumne or the slightly runout, quarter incher bolted routes in the Buttermilks, so take that as you will.) * Partner Connection: although I have many great sport climber friends (many of whom are more verbally supportive than my trad climber friends during the belay), I never developed the kind of intense bond with my sport partner(s) that comes with living through an epic or getting through a long sketch route or, simply, climbing and descending a route safely with no injuries, no accidents, and no real losses to either partner (always an ever-present possibility on most trad routes of more than one pitch). * Warm, Fuzzy Mother Earth: I'm not saying trad climbers have no impact (that is a joke), but I gotta be honest--one gets a bigger dose of semi-remote to remote wilderness more frequently with trad than with sport. This is important to me as I was brought up camping and hiking all over the U.S.
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scotchie
Jul 24, 2007, 6:09 AM
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chalkfree wrote: Trad is the leave no trace ethic expressed vertically. Trad climbing allows bolts when required for safety. The no bolts whatsoever ethic is called clean climbing - if you can't climb it safely with gear, either toprope, risk your life, or don't climb. There are very few crags with a clean climbing ethic. Trad is a compromise between the clean-climbing ideal and the real-world situation that many good climbs do need some bolts for safety.
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gramps
Jul 24, 2007, 6:18 AM
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This is hilarious. I like trad because you're more in control of the experience and you get to climb stuff that you're not able to if all you do is sport. What's the mystery? The leave no trace thing isn't a main reason why I climb trad lines, but if someone likes that about it, what's the big deal? Climbing a huge cliff without leaving anything besides (maybe) some chalk is pretty cool. You also get to explore your head more, and get to feel more bold and comfortable on the rock because falling becomes a more serious proposition, at least on lines where you're not placing gear every 10 feet.
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jt512
Jul 24, 2007, 6:33 AM
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scotchie wrote: The no bolts whatsoever ethic is called clean climbing - if you can't climb it safely with gear, either toprope, risk your life, or don't climb. There are very few crags with a clean climbing ethic. I disagree. My understanding of "clean climbing" is that it specifically refers to the use of removable pro in lieu of pitons. Bolts don't violate the clean climbing ethic, as I understand it, when there is no reasonable clean alternative. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 24, 2007, 6:33 AM)
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jt512
Jul 24, 2007, 7:20 AM
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How can you take that article seriously when its second sentence contradicts its first: In reply to: Clean climbing is a style of rock climbing that avoids damage to the rock by eschewing the drilling of bolts and the hammering of pitons. The style became practical with the invention of clean protection: nuts in the 1930s and spring loaded camming devices in the 1970s Nuts and cams obviate the need for most pitons, but clearly do not obviate the need for bolts. Clean climbing simply refers to the use of clean crack protection over destructive crack protection (ie, pitons) whenever possible. Consider: 1. Bolt ladders are given C-ratings. 2. This article about clean-climbing pioneer Doug Robinson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Robinson
wikipedia wrote: Doug Robinson is a guide and instructor in the Sierra Mountains. He is the author of A Night on the Ground - A Day in the Open and the much translated article "The Climber as Visionary". He also created of one of the first videos on rock climbing, Moving Over Stone. One of his first ascents in the Sierras included the central Lee Vining Icefall in 1970 with Yvon Chouinard. Along with Chouinard, he was a pioneer of "clean climbing," which foresake the use of rock-destructive pitons for climbing chocks. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 24, 2007, 4:09 PM)
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scotchie
Jul 24, 2007, 8:00 AM
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Sport climbing didn't exist in the 1970's, so it wasn't as much of an issue as it is today. The question is one of enviornmentalism vs safety. The extreme side of an environmental ethic would be no bolts at all. It asks the question, are you prepared to forgo a climb (or risk injury) to protect the rock? I'm thinking of areas like Paradise Forks, where there are simply no bolts whatsoever. If you place a bolt, someone will chop it. I'm not saying I agree with that ethic all the time. It's great in areas where climbs can be developed completely clean. But in the Supes, the AZ climbing community has had clean climbing forced upon us by the forest service, and there has been almost no route development since.
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Depr
Jul 24, 2007, 10:02 PM
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i like how this post is trying to incorporate sport climbing as a ground-up affair. I would agree with this notion only if the route was bolted on lead. Once a person trusts their gear, I think trad climbing is more about fighting inner doubts and overcoming personal anxieties while on the rock. I can understand why people might feel trad climbing is initially about gear because that is the 'big unknown factor' at the beginning (i.e. will it hold me and will i not get seriously hurt). Climbing near your limit on gear is about putting good gear in and pushing onward to the next positive hold/ gear placement/ stance. If you pause/ take because you are afraid, then this is clearly not real trad climbing in my opinion and you might as well be a sport climber. Trad climbing= confidence in your abilities and fluidity of movement. -Depr
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skinner
Jul 25, 2007, 2:11 AM
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dingus wrote: The essence of trad is 'ground up.' On sight free solo is the ultimate trad expression, so no.... trad is not really *just* about the gear. You start at the bottom and climb to the top, THAT'S trad. DMT Bottom-to-Top, I agree, and Traditionally.. the "top" actually meant the TOP.
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dan2see
Jul 25, 2007, 3:16 AM
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Trad is about a lot of things, including gear, but gear never has to be cool, it just has to be available. Trad is more about attitude than anything else. First you gotta wanna. And you gotta wanna for you own reasons, too. Courage helps a lot. For me, I just love being up there! Then when I get home, I wonder: did I really do that? Wow! It's all very abstract, very subjective, so when guys post stuff about trad climbing, a lot of climbers will write about gear instead of their own feelings. No, cchas, trad is really NOT just about gear.
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alx
Jul 25, 2007, 12:32 PM
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It's not about gear. The thing is that what it IS about doesn't lend itself to endless mastabatory discussion like: What shoe should I buy? Is X cam better than Y cam? Sliding X or cordalette? How do I get this tricam out of my ass? (just checking to see if you're still reading) If you want to know what it's about go climb trad. If you don't care enough to find out then it's not for you.
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dan2see
Jul 25, 2007, 1:36 PM
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I notice that this "Trad Climbing" forum has been pretty quiet since the spring. Well the trad guys are out climbing.
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CinnamonJohnson
Jul 25, 2007, 1:51 PM
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I think the title of this discussion is actually a pretty valid question. You notice that when you get a group of trad climbers together they talk about their gear. It is what they are excited about. When you get a group of sport climbers or boulderers together they talk about moves, the crux of their project, and how they train for it. Because that is what they are excited about. It seems that for a lot of trad climbers it is all about the gear.
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cchas
Jul 25, 2007, 2:21 PM
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alx wrote: If you want to know what it's about go climb trad. If you don't care enough to find out then it's not for you. Actually after 33 yrs of doing it, I sort of think I might just have the hang of it. But as CinnamonJohnson was saying, on this forum everyone talks about are C3's or aliens the bomb, or whatever. I figure if it works for you use it. What I care about is do I need to carry up to a yellow camalot or do I need something larger when I try Rainbow Wall Original Route in September, or how quickly does the crux of All Along the Watchtower take to dry (or does it really ever). And as for the tricams in the ass, they should just stay there until ice climbing season (but thats a different forum) since they are a piece of crap anyways (but I do like to wail on them with my ice tools)
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vegastradguy
Jul 25, 2007, 3:09 PM
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what are you all talking about? of course trad climbing is about the gear....its my only excuse for owning as much crap as i do!
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cchas
Jul 25, 2007, 3:37 PM
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I have no issue about large racks. I like climbing at Indian Creek (and small racks aren't rewarded), but still, its just a means of protecting the climbing. The climbing is not a means of placing gear. Also the climbs I like to do generally require several of each size, ie: the Prow at Paradise Forks, runout the offwidth, plug in 3 green camalots, 2 red camalots and pull over the top, or Mutiny on the Bounty, a grey micro-C4 then a purple Cam jr, pull up on the sloping ledge, plug 3 micro-C4's into the stembox until you can reach left to the finger crack for 2 grey C4-s and then another purple Cam jr and two green cam jrs. and then pull over the top. Not saying gear isn't important, or anything about large racks, but its only just the beginning. Maybe I have hung out with sports climbers too much, but my old mentor (a 5.13 trad/A5 kind of climber) had told me to go hangout with the sporto's to get their kind of strength, and attitude (I'm firmly in the camp of the book The Rock Warriors Way)
(This post was edited by cchas on Jul 25, 2007, 3:41 PM)
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scotchie
Jul 25, 2007, 4:27 PM
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Trad for me is about the whole mountain/wilderness experience. - I am not using bolts placed by someone before me, but relying upon my own skill, judgement, and creativity - for both protection and routefinding. - Trad crags tend to be in more pristine, wilderness settings. - The typically longer approaches create a sort of multi-sport aspect (hiking + climbing). - Climbing taller things is more of an adventure, and I get a better view. There are sport crags with a great view (which is a big plus btw), but the essence of sport is focusing on the moves only and removing everything else. I have to admit that I have met some trad climbers for whom all that gear seems to be a huge draw. The gear was a big draw for me in my first year or two of trad climbing, but it interests me less these days. My primary gear interest was in acquiring the gear I needed to do the climbs I wanted to. Now that I have that gear, I am not as interested in it.
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psprings
Jul 25, 2007, 6:00 PM
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I think that you're right that the trad forum could be labeled "gear forum" from the topics it contains. Thing is, if you want to talk about moves, that'd probably be the "technique and training forum". Hmm, I always talk about climbs and the moves on them and the gear they take to friends after a route... but as I and others have pointed out, it's just hard to keep a topic going on crux moves, etc.; you know, it's hard enough to convey with words in a forum what you're trying to describe so that everybody gets it. Sounds like you might be advocating for a "route beta forum"? Hence the "trad forum" turns into the "gear forum"
(This post was edited by psprings on Jul 25, 2007, 6:22 PM)
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trebork2
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Jul 25, 2007, 9:11 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: what are you all talking about? of course trad climbing is about the gear....its my only excuse for owning as much crap as i do! I thought all those were sex toys... who lives in Vegas and doesn't own a lot of sex toys
(This post was edited by trebork2 on Jul 25, 2007, 9:11 PM)
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dingus
Jul 25, 2007, 9:14 PM
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trebork2 wrote: I thought all those were sex toys... who lives in Vegas and doesn't own a lot of sex toys No one. DMT
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vegastradguy
Jul 26, 2007, 12:44 AM
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ropes? although Jay seems to find himself the designated rope reviewer, i have a couple of my own! as for the sex toys- i keep those in the other room!
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jaybro
Jul 27, 2007, 9:16 AM
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cchas wrote: Looking at 80% of the threads in this section, you would believe that trad climbing is just about gear. I find that this is stupid since I find gear and good gear placements as the easiest, and most boring part of it all. I find technique, like having to deal with overhanging ringlocks, and the mental aspects as far more interesting then comparing and contrasting hexes, tri-cams and cams. Anyone elses thoughts? Trad, is the one where you don't clip bolts?
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livinonasandbar
Jul 27, 2007, 5:32 PM
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Yeah, but... Jaybro, I wouldn't call those fearsome, run-out bolted slab climbs at Squamish "sport routes"...
(This post was edited by livinonasandbar on Jul 27, 2007, 5:33 PM)
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cchas
Jul 27, 2007, 5:35 PM
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livinonasandbar wrote: Yeah, but... Jaybro, I wouldn't call those fearsome, run-out bolted slab climbs at Squamish "sport routes"... Those Squamish sports routes have nothing on the Calavaras/Hammer Dome and Tuolumne Sport Routes. 1 bolt in 150ft is pretty "sporty"
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Depr
Jul 27, 2007, 7:03 PM
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3 bolts in 140 feet is probably the most run out in Squamish.
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jaybro
Jul 28, 2007, 2:45 AM
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livinonasandbar wrote: Yeah, but... Jaybro, I wouldn't call those fearsome, run-out bolted slab climbs at Squamish "sport routes"... Kinda like the three(4?) bolts 1n 180' on watercrack (course?) on lembert, my favorite climb in the meadows? I get ya, liv, I'm one with your view, just f-ing around. Pretty sure I've climbed a trad in the past.
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rasoy
Jul 28, 2007, 3:38 PM
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It's the original. Traditional, like classic and realism. The rock and mountain will reveal itself to you (the routes), only as much as you have given to it. One must study themselves and nature to see the real lines. Trad is not just about climbing only. It goes far and beyond that. The gear is only a gross physical umbilical cord that connects us to real knowledge.
(This post was edited by rasoy on Jul 28, 2007, 3:49 PM)
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old_apple_juice
Jul 29, 2007, 1:02 AM
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I'm relatively new to trad climbing...so I don't have really any predispositions. I love placing gear, I find that the old 5.5's and 5.7's get really really exciting when I'm relying on myself and my own placements. I love the way the gear jingles and I like organizing my rack at home because it's just another way to get totally excited about climbing. With kids, wife, school and work...I can't climb all the time. So for me, the gear helps because organizing it and tying knots with my kids keeps me pumped up and constantly calling my climbing partners to arrange days to climb (I have a list, I just go down the list calling til someone says yes). Hell, when I know I'm going climbing I do more dishes, do more laundry, do more renovations, play better with the kids. They love the gear too because it jingles and comes in neat colors...they get interested, and now I finally took my daughter...she ain't Cicada but she's my girl! In conclusion, I'd prefer to climb, but sometimes I have to settle for playing with my gear...
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skinner
Jul 29, 2007, 1:33 AM
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old_apple_juice wrote: and now I finally took my daughter...she ain't Cicada but she's my girl!
In reply to: Annual cicada, Tibicen linnei Wikipedia wrote: Many people around the world regularly complement their standard diet with cicadas: the female is prized for eating as it is meatier. You must be refering to something else?
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rasoy
Jul 29, 2007, 2:17 AM
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Skinner Everything in your picture looks too new. Do you use this stuff?
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old_apple_juice
Jul 29, 2007, 2:18 AM
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Cicada is that insane child climbing prodigy. I read about her in 'Climbing' magazine. Your rack is ridiculous...I have a set of BD stoppers and hexes and that's pretty much all I need to do what I want. Where do you guys get the money????? I bought a few meters of webbing today and I was choked up.
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skinner
Jul 29, 2007, 2:32 AM
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rasoy wrote: Skinner Everything in your picture looks too new. Do you use this stuff? You're not the first to say that, but believe me it gets well used. That photo is a couple of years old mind you and was posted in the "Rack Photos" thread waaay back. If you add in the aid, ice, & alpine gear, it really starts to get out of hand. This is in my kids bedroom, more gear hanging on the end of my their bunk bed for lack of storage space, storgae which is full of yet more gear. Gear whore? maybe. really don't have anything I don't need or use though.
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skinner
Jul 29, 2007, 2:56 AM
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old_apple_juice wrote: Cicada is that insane child climbing prodigy. I read about her in 'Climbing' magazine. Your rack is ridiculous...I have a set of BD stoppers and hexes and that's pretty much all I need to do what I want. Where do you guys get the money????? I bought a few meters of webbing today and I was choked up. Like I said, it's been accumulated or many years, but I do replace a lot of stuff every year. Where do I get the money.. well, I'm a self employed, network engineer, which helps keep me in gear. You think it's expensive now? just wait until you are buying multiple everything to keep your kids outfitted! We climb in basically every discipline, all year-round. So that means buy 3-sets of technical ice tools, glacier axes, double boots, cold weather gear, etc, etc.. The worst part is that the little ba#tards won't stop growing! I think I bought 7-8 pairs of climbing shoes last year, plus all the North Face jackets and pants, fit them for one season only. On the plus side.. you have partners at your disposal to go clibiming with anytime you please. And I mean *anytime*, I'm notorious for pulling my kids out of school to go climbing.
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old_apple_juice
Jul 29, 2007, 3:57 AM
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Well then, I guess I have someone to look up to. In terms of gear, I'm not sure how I'll do. If this Master's degree business turns into money then we'll see. I have often thought of pulling my children from school for various ski and climbing related activities...it's nice to know someone else is living that dream. Once my daughter quits having naps on the crash pad and climbing I'll be set. Once my son can balance on his feet then we're good to go. Cheers man....what was this thread about originally???????
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skinner
Jul 29, 2007, 6:54 AM
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old_apple_juice wrote: Well then, I guess I have someone to look up to. In terms of gear, I'm not sure how I'll do. If this Master's degree business turns into money then we'll see. I have often thought of pulling my children from school for various ski and climbing related activities...it's nice to know someone else is living that dream. I think you're doing the right thing, and don't worry about it, there were a lot of lean years climbing & gear wise, while I was going in school. It's pretty tough to be a dirtbag and raise a family.
In reply to: Once my daughter quits having naps on the crash pad and climbing I'll be set. Once my son can balance on his feet then we're good to go. Perfect, lots of time to mold them in the ultimate belay slaves, errr.. I mean partners!
In reply to: Cheers man....what was this thread about originally??????? Ya.. I don't know, something about gear I think.
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