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flint
Aug 3, 2007, 3:54 AM
Post #26 of 69
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Glad to see you bought and are trying to learn. I personally love my hexes and take them on most of the routes that I do in The Red. If I am looking at a route with hand jams, you can bet that I have all of my hexes on my rack, along with some cams. There is something so satisifying about placing that big purple #11 BD hex that can not be explained.
Also, I love cow bells, I find it scares the sport climbers away. But, that could be a "mid-west" kind of thing.
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dan2see
Aug 3, 2007, 4:54 AM
Post #27 of 69
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But TM, you're making the same assumption so many "best gear" posts make: on xyz crag, with so-and-so routes, etc.
And in fact I did the same thing: I assumed that you'd be climbing in my neighbourhood.
But you did qualify your advice for Vermont.
So I should also qualify my advice: The Rockies have a lot of high-friction limestone, with lots of cracks, mostly in loose blocks. That means that the type of gear you use is not important, just finding something secure is a relief.
On the other hand, a lot of high-quality crags have almost no pro at all, and bolts are used instead.
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petsfed
Aug 3, 2007, 12:47 PM
Post #29 of 69
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rocloco wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: All depends on how close to your limit you want to climb. Cams are better hands down, period, end of fuckin story! hexes are a specialty piece. Ok for hammering into icy cracks and dropping in the ocasional pocket. Never cary them unless I know the climb requires them or I don't have enough big cams. Kids from VT should give Rose Crack a go up at Bolton. Try that sucker with cam and then try it with hexes. that should answer your question pretty well. I get mighty sick of kids telling me how great hexes are when I was useing hexes before they were even born  Maybe you're getting too soft to take the time to place em and too addled in your old age to realize that people have different likes and dislikes, but I affirm again that hexes work great as every day pro. They have their place and since they are a lot cheaper than cams they are great beginer pieces. And while we're being condescending pricks over age I'm getting sick of old fuckers thinking they know best cause they are closer to wearing diapers. Just cause you were wearing pink neon crotch cuddlers while you dangled cow bells a hundred and fifty years ago it doesn't make you gods spokesman for what qualifies as good pro today. If you think an icy crack or a pocket is the only good placement for a hex then you clearly don't use them and as such your opinion counts for shit old man.
Put another way, if you feel like fiddling with a hex every time you need a piece, you might need your head checked. He only carries them at places where he knows nothing else will do because its simply easier to use cams in every other situation. Which is the same with me. Cams don't like iced up cracks, and some pockets will only take hexes. For everything else, a cam will do just as well, and will be faster (and thus safer).
I carry the #9 whenever I go, but that's because it has so many uses over and above a piece of pro. Its a hammer to pound on the nut tool to get something out, its a backup rappel device that's less gear intensive than rigging a bar brake with crabs, and doesn't twist the rope like a munther, it doubles as a spare hands/tight hands piece (although I rarely use it as such), its an extra sling, etc. Cowbells, especially slung cowbells (as opposed to wired cowbells, which I feel are harder to get to seat right) are difficult to place one handed. So I, and a great many others, simply don't carry them.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2007, 1:31 PM
Post #30 of 69
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You may be younger and stronger but that sure don't mean your smarter Gaurenfuckenteed you can climb a grade harder with cams than you can with hexes and tricams on sustained crack climbing. If you can't you haven't learned how to use your cams properly yet I ocasionaly carry a big hex, the #10 on long climbs. Its mostly used as a hammer. I have a project going right now with a huge roof and a crack splitting it that opens above the restriction. cams no good here so i plan on useing hexes. I go to re sling my #9 for this project. (I stole the cord from it to V thread off an ice climb) anyways this young punk at EMS with too much metal sticking out of his forehead gave me crap saying that I couldn't re sling my hex with 8mm perlon trying to sell me a $25.00 roll of Tech Cord which I personaly find to be usless as tits on a boar hogg as well as being stupidly expensive. Point being that experience does in fact count for something in these kinds of debates. You can do a clinic and crank in the gym for a year or so and think you know everything or you can shut up and learn something from your elders Hexes are a specialty piece. Rarely needed by the new trad climber. Cams do the job better 95% of the time. My advice to a new tradclimber is to save up for good cams and don't waste your money on hexes unless you climb at an area where they are specificly required (unlikly but possible) JMOP
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Aug 3, 2007, 1:52 PM)
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rocloco
Aug 3, 2007, 2:07 PM
Post #31 of 69
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I hear ya trad man, maybe you are smarter, who knows? All that being said, yes, I love fiddling with hexes. I want to be as versatile with pro as possible and for that reason I try all kinds of things that aren't necessarily the quickest and easiest. Since I place hexes all the time though I've actually gotten pretty good at quick slots. They are my favorite pro. Any idiot can glue a cam in. Hexes take creativity and thought, I love that! And I'm not trying to be condescending with that...
Yes, it usually takes longer to slot a hex...agreed. And again, that's why when the climbing gets really hard I slot my cams instead. But I still take my hexes everywhere I go. Much to the dismay of many of my partners.
I admit that I am biased towards hexes. I believe they are much more practical than most people give them credit for. Not as intuitive as cams, but in my humble (ok, not being very humble) opinion more versatile.
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rocloco
Aug 3, 2007, 2:18 PM
Post #32 of 69
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And I do believe there is an infinite amount of knowledge to be gleaned from your elders. My 2 biggest mentors are both over 55 (55 and 65 respectively - both still lead hard 10), but just cause people are old it doesn't mean they have useful knowledge. Age doesn't necessarily spawn wisdom and your attitude towards hexes makes be wonder how practical your advice really is. To say hexes are a specialty piece is ludacris. Maybe I'm special, but I use em with great effect.
When I started climbing in my early 20's I didn't have the money for cams and most people that start climbing for the 1st time are younger and again money is in short supply on that end of the life cycle. Hexes are wonderful beginner pro. Don't listen to anyone that thinks they are specialty use only. Learn how to use em. It will benefit you in the long run. I gaurantee it...
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mikebaetz
Aug 3, 2007, 2:29 PM
Post #33 of 69
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I'm with the "don't bother with hexes" camp, with a caveat. If you're going to bother, get Wild Country's hexes- they're curved and you can buy them with dynemma slings instead of wires. Having wires on hexes is a pain in the a**, INMOP. When I have placed them, Wild Countrys seem superior to any other.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2007, 2:30 PM
Post #34 of 69
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Registered: Apr 24, 2003
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So I follow your advise and I buy a bunch of hexes, don't have any money left over for cams and i go on a road trip. I find myself in Zion getting my Ass handed to me and quite possibly going splat because I didn't have that #4 cam that would have saved my ass BTDT Nice eastern rack of micro stoppers and a few big hexes. Zion 86 . Still get cold sweats over that one
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psprings
Aug 3, 2007, 2:40 PM
Post #35 of 69
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I think buying 2 or 3 of the medium/large ones won't be a bad thing. I carry 1 or 2 hexes to supplement my rack of Metolius ULs. I think they don't cluster as much as double cams, are lighter, and do give an option IF you hit one of those pockets, lipped cracks that're bigger inside than the edge, or you need a "hammer".
Have fun with them... they are sort of nostalgic. I've been taking some beginners up with almost exclusively a passive rack of nuts and hexes... and a couple 3cus. It's good for teaching, and fun to climb routes you've done before without a bunch of cams. Keeps you sharp tying opposed nuts together with clove hitches, lol... that's the biggest waste of time that a cam will save your bacon on!
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rocloco
Aug 3, 2007, 2:47 PM
Post #37 of 69
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Registered: Aug 18, 2004
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mikebaetz wrote: I'm with the "don't bother with hexes" camp, with a caveat. If you're going to bother, get Wild Country's hexes- they're curved and you can buy them with dynemma slings instead of wires. Having wires on hexes is a pain in the a**, INMOP. When I have placed them, Wild Countrys seem superior to any other.
I agree that wild country hexes are awesome. I've been climbing with a guy that has them and they work great! I'm considering switching to them. Other than for deep cracks I agree that the slug hexes are better and wild country place really nicely. Great hexes...
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rocloco
Aug 3, 2007, 2:54 PM
Post #38 of 69
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tradmanclimbs wrote: So I follow your advise and I buy a bunch of hexes, don't have any money left over for cams and i go on a road trip.
That's hilarious - for the price of 2 cams you get a whole set up hexes. Your logic if going down the drain old man...
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rocloco
Aug 3, 2007, 2:54 PM
Post #39 of 69
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Right with my spelling...
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2007, 3:10 PM
Post #40 of 69
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Rob. What makes you think that i don't know how to place a hex?? thats the thing that pisses me off. You assume that just because i am smart enough to realize that cams are faster, more eficiant and often (not allways) more secure to place and clean than hexes that i don't know how to use hexes. What a total load of BS I am damn good at placing all kinds of pro. That knowlege has taught me that cams are faster and easier and usualy more versatile than hexes. I climbed many years totaly passive. If your hex placements are as fast as yoiur cam placments YOU need to work on your cam placements!! Sure its nice to know how to use hexes but it is a luxury not a nessesity. Myamoto Mussashi In Go Rin No Sho " Do nothing which is of no use" lugging a bunch of cowbells arround when you could be plugging cams and climbing instead of fiddleing with gear fits in that catagory for me. Go ahead, work harder than you need to, wear out your tendons over gripping while you try to fit that square peg in the round hole. You will appreciate the cams that much more when you reach that age of wisdome
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dingus
Aug 3, 2007, 3:30 PM
Post #41 of 69
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rocloco wrote: I'm merely saying most people don't use hexes very well and don't understand how useful they are. I would say you're a shining example...
I've never met tradmanclimbs but I think I would bet good money that he can use hexes quite well and understands exactly how useful they are.
DMT
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2007, 4:07 PM
Post #44 of 69
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Whatever, go the creek or the tower and have fun with you cowbells
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cracklover
Aug 3, 2007, 4:25 PM
Post #45 of 69
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Whatever, go the creek or the tower and have fun with you cowbells
Don't be ridiculous.
I'm not among those saying you don't know how to place hexes. That, of course, would be equally ridiculous.
Nor do I claim that cams are less versatile than hexes. Of course they are more versatile.
Here's my point - you clearly agree with me that in some placements (such as your roof crack), hexes are simply the best placements. So my point is that the beginning trad leader is apt to see a lot of those placements, due to the nature of easy trad climbs in the Northeast. Especially at the Gunks and the granite in the White mountains. Such climbs often follow corner systems. These systems often allow protection primarily where there is broken rock, with wide opening cracks in it. The best placement in such cracks is a hex, as you well know.
Maybe it's been too long since you've been a beginning lead climber? It hasn't been so long for me, and I remember quite well what served me best. Certainly cams, but also hexes. And not *just* in the Northeast, either. Moderate Red Rocks cracks eat them up. So do moderate Yosemite cracks. The Creek - not so much.
Cheers,
GO
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2007, 4:35 PM
Post #47 of 69
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cracklover. i was replying to danny who seems to think anyone old enough to know that cams are generaly better than hexes is an old fuddy duddy Even in the gunks and the whites cams are better hexes will usualy work ok and sometimes great. Cams will usualy work great and sometimes ok
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dingus
Aug 3, 2007, 4:39 PM
Post #48 of 69
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cracklover wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: Whatever, go the creek or the tower and have fun with you cowbells Don't be ridiculous. I'm not among those saying you don't know how to place hexes. That, of course, would be equally ridiculous. Nor do I claim that cams are less versatile than hexes. Of course they are more versatile. Here's my point - you clearly agree with me that in some placements (such as your roof crack), hexes are simply the best placements. So my point is that the beginning trad leader is apt to see a lot of those placements, due to the nature of easy trad climbs in the Northeast. Especially at the Gunks and the granite in the White mountains. Such climbs often follow corner systems. These systems often allow protection primarily where there is broken rock, with wide opening cracks in it. The best placement in such cracks is a hex, as you well know. Maybe it's been too long since you've been a beginning lead climber? It hasn't been so long for me, and I remember quite well what served me best. Certainly cams, but also hexes. And not *just* in the Northeast, either. Moderate Red Rocks cracks eat them up. So do moderate Yosemite cracks. The Creek - not so much. Cheers, GO
Cheers Gabe! Your points are very well made. I don't dispute your points. And it certainly won't hurt someone to learn hexes. May even foster some respect for the old farts that used them to go clean before the Lowe's saved us all.
DMT
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rocloco
Aug 3, 2007, 4:46 PM
Post #49 of 69
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I'm not saying hexes are better since that is subject to personal needs and likes/dislikes, but yes I believe they are more versatile. The logic: I a can get a hex in most places I can get a cam in and I can slot hexes where a cam will never do. Plus, they can double as slings. And they're cheaper..voila!
Anyway, I'm sure he knows how to place em.
I just don't agree that they are specialty pieces only and I don't agree that age has anything to do with this arguement. None of his logic proves that hexes are specialty pieces.
I've tried giving him his due, but he's not listening. He keeps trying to convince me I should change my mind and that somehow I will when I get older. It's shit for logic. He has an opinion, I have mine. I love em, they work great and I recommend them for beginners.
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rocloco
Aug 3, 2007, 4:50 PM
Post #50 of 69
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tradmanclimbs wrote: cracklover. i was replying to danny who seems to think anyone old enough to know that cams are generaly better than hexes is an old fuddy duddy Even in the gunks and the whites cams are better hexes will usualy work ok and sometimes great. Cams will usualy work great and sometimes ok
No I think you are a fuddy duddy cause you keep saying how old you are and somehow you know best because of that!!
I have tons of buddies my age that HATE hexes, smaller than a #9...
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