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dbrayack


Aug 20, 2007, 11:00 AM
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Pushing it for Trad...dangerous?
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Being a recent trad convert (from bouldering and sport), I've found that when pushing oneself on a traditional (gear) routes, it often becomes considerably more dangerous...

On hard sport routes, the bolts TEND to be closer, therefore is much safer!

A couple of weeks ago, I decided to rope up for this 5.10a trad route...holy cow. I totally thought I was gonna die (and so did my buddies on the ground.) Of course, I was being dumb picked one with sparse gear!

What are your thoughts on pushing it hard on trad routes?

-Danno


jt512


Aug 20, 2007, 11:05 AM
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dbrayack wrote:
Being a recent trad convert (from bouldering and sport), I've found that when pushing oneself on a traditional (gear) routes, it often becomes considerably more dangerous...

On hard sport routes, the bolts TEND to be closer, therefore is much safer!

A couple of weeks ago, I decided to rope up for this 5.10a trad route...holy cow. I totally thought I was gonna die (and so did my buddies on the ground.) Of course, I was being dumb picked one with sparse gear!

What are your thoughts on pushing it hard on trad routes?

Seems like you answered your own question.

Jay


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Aug 20, 2007, 11:10 AM
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What route was it, Dan?


reg


Aug 20, 2007, 11:20 AM
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dbrayack wrote:
A couple of weeks ago, I decided to rope up for this 5.10a trad route...holy cow. I totally thought I was gonna die (and so did my buddies on the ground.) Of course, I was being dumb picked one with sparse gear!
-Danno

as a novice trad leader myself, i would say that you may have missed some intermediate placements along the way that would have help you avoid/lessen the danger you felt.
for sure trad is more dangerous and more adventurous as well.


8flood8


Aug 20, 2007, 11:22 AM
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the cool thing about hard trad is you can always aid it!


granite_grrl


Aug 20, 2007, 11:24 AM
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Its all about being proficient placing gear. Placing good gear, quickly, without pumping out. If the gear you place is good its shouldn't be any more dangerous than a sport climb.

So does that mean if I head to the New sometime this fall I'll see you placing nuts instead of clipping bolts? Wink


dbrayack


Aug 20, 2007, 11:24 AM
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Angel's Arete (in full on sun)...I got the RP behind the hollow death flake but was sketching at the crux.


petsfed


Aug 20, 2007, 11:32 AM
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There are two kinds of hard trad routes: hard cracks and hard gear protected faces. If you're on a hard crack, its just a matter of keeping the jams long enough to get gear in, which can be pretty damn hard, but the gear's still there. If its hard face climbs, you've just got to get comfortable when you're a long way above crap gear.

Its a lot more work to start climbing hard enough trad that the falls seem safe. So you've just got to push the grades and seek out the climbs with safe falls when you try to come to terms with getting above your gear and doing hard moves above your gear.

That does not mean take practice falls. That means setting good gear and getting yourself into a position where it would be ok to fall. Often in trad climbing, you'll see people backing off of routes well within their ability because they are afraid of falling and haven't developed the risk assessment skills that help them decide when its ok to fall or not. I still wrestle with that problem. You just have to go for it and adjust your comfort limits. I would suggest a bottom-up approach (that is, increase the difficulty incrementally until you fall, rather than starting with hard stuff and working down) as you're less likely to get killed that way.

With crack climbing, at any rate, the ultimate key is mileage until you trust your jams, which may mean a metric ass load of toproping the routes you just led so as to figure out the absolute best way to jam in any given situation.


flamer


Aug 20, 2007, 11:32 AM
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8flood8 wrote:
the cool thing about hard trad is you can always aid it!

Really?
Ever heard of Jules Verne? Or The Bachar/ Yerian? What about Risky Business in Red rocks?

There are LOT'S of hard trad lines that can't be aided.
Don't ever assume you can always "just" aid.

josh


petsfed


Aug 20, 2007, 11:33 AM
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8flood8 wrote:
the cool thing about hard trad is you can always aid it!

That is most assuredly not true. Its just that most of the good hard trad can be aided.


deschamps1000


Aug 20, 2007, 11:34 AM
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Depends on the route. Splitter cracks can be protected whenever you feel sketched and thus have less fall potential than sport. Sounds like you were not on a splitter!


dbrayack


Aug 20, 2007, 11:37 AM
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Yah. Good post man, for sure.

I've hardly ever seen people take honest to God lead falls on trad gear....I see it all the time on sport climbs, its casual.

But if you're going to push yourself to the limit on trad climbs, shouldn't you be falling on them too? I guess there's a difference, like you said between a hard crack (pretty much consistent gear) and run-out face climbs...

Do any of you guys consistently take big falls on trad gear?


jt512


Aug 20, 2007, 11:46 AM
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dbrayack wrote:
Do any of you guys consistently take big falls on trad gear?

Yes, but you have to be able to judge when it is safe to do so. An "RP behind a hollow death flake" doesn't sound like such a case. In trad you will find situations in which a fall means almost certain injury or death, and you have to deal with it accordingly. You have to be able to see these situations before you are committed to them, and be able to judge whether you have the skills needed to climb through to the next good gear placement. You can then decide whether to commit to the dangerous section or to back off the route.

Jay


8flood8


Aug 20, 2007, 11:48 AM
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i read a post from one of the metolius guys a month or so back.

he said that 1 in 20 good placements fail.

the clearly screams to me, do not fall, ever. at least on trad routes.

now then i'm up here in hawaii right now... i got on the "warm up climb" here on the north shore at mokuleia it was an 5.8+...

i was looking down at the bolt about 4 feet below me around the arete and i could see my quick draw kind of banging on the edge... the next bolt was out of my reach and i just sat on my toes (they were burning) for about 6 minutes, trying to figure out how my escape route could not involve falling on that freaky little bolt below me...

later in the day i was thinking... maybe i just don't fall enough (but i think i was wrong ... there's no need to fall!)

anyway kind of rambling i mostly just posted to relay the idea from the metolius dude! remember 1 in 20 good placements fails. what is that 5%??


jt512


Aug 20, 2007, 11:49 AM
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8flood8 wrote:
he said that 1 in 20 good placements fail.

0 in 20 good placements fail. That's why they're "good."

Jay


vegastradguy


Aug 20, 2007, 11:50 AM
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i've found that the more experience i've gained on gear, the easier it is to push myself. my ability to read the route, protect before and after cruxes (and/or runouts), etc, etc, make it easier to approach a route that is at my limit.

also, being willing to climb above your gear and know that the fall will be clean (no matter how long it is) is something that take a while to wrap your mind around. i was on a 5.9 on Saturday and was something like 40' above my last good piece pulling crux moves- it wasn't too hard, but when i was done with it, i was really happy that i had the experience necessary for me to be able to do that. had i done that route when i originally wanted to 3 years ago, i would have been shitting my pants on that lead!

that said, i push myself in small increments- i dont fall very often- and while there is something to be said for pushing yourself until you fall, i dont mind advancing a little slower and taking fewer whips.


billl7


Aug 20, 2007, 11:57 AM
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A commonly known rule of thumb: With trad routes, the pushing-your-envelope choices include i) climbing difficulty and ii) protection difficulty. When you want to push your lead abilities, try to choose a route that will challenge you in either area but not both at the same time.


dbrayack


Aug 20, 2007, 12:03 PM
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solid advice....right on.


deschamps1000


Aug 20, 2007, 12:21 PM
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flamer wrote:
Really?
Ever heard of Jules Verne? Or The Bachar/ Yerian? What about Risky Business in Red rocks?

There are LOT'S of hard trad lines that can't be aided.
josh

Bachar / Yerian is bolted.


8flood8


Aug 20, 2007, 12:24 PM
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i know you always think you are right, J... but that is pretty much a quote, although i didn't look up the post so that i could quote it directly.

Aren't you a sport climber anyway?


zealotnoob


Aug 20, 2007, 12:27 PM
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I say push it...but choose a G route.


iamthewallress


Aug 20, 2007, 12:27 PM
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I find that most people with less than a few years of experience on less than 5.10 are almost always pushing their limits with respect to the gear or the objective hazards, whether they realize it or not.

Folks pushing the limits of harder traditional climbing have a lot of great technique and strength in the bag and need to work out perfect sequences and the like.

Folks pushing from 5.7 to 5.8 need to learn the techniques, and this can often be done more safely and efficiently w/in their no-fall zone.


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Aug 20, 2007, 1:06 PM)


8flood8


Aug 20, 2007, 12:43 PM
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jt512 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
he said that 1 in 20 good placements fail.

0 in 20 good placements fail. That's why they're "good."

Jay

"During my tests, about one in twenty good-looking placements pulled out when loaded. The challenge is to figure out why the cam pulled, and what could have been done to prevent this from happening. "

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1650449;search_string=1%20in%2020;#1650449



sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements, but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.


8flood8


Aug 20, 2007, 12:46 PM
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i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)


iamthewallress


Aug 20, 2007, 12:53 PM
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jt512 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
he said that 1 in 20 good placements fail.

0 in 20 good placements fail. That's why they're "good."

Jay

Touche, Jay.

If it was standard for fine looking placements to fail, then most/many people would fall roughly twice per C1 pitch of aid climbing where looking good is tends to be the preferred testing method before forging ahead. This simply doesn't happen with experienced climbers.

That said, once you fall, there are more things to worry about than the peice failing. Many novice leaders are so worried about the gear failing that they don't appreciate the other risks.


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Aug 20, 2007, 1:00 PM)


Partner mr8615


Aug 20, 2007, 12:54 PM
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billl7 wrote:
A commonly known rule of thumb: With trad routes, the pushing-your-envelope choices include i) climbing difficulty and ii) protection difficulty. When you want to push your lead abilities, try to choose a route that will challenge you in either area but not both at the same time.

Well put! And nice lead, Dan! Angel's arete isn't a gimme but the pro will keep you off the ground (if you find the money horizontal blue tcu). I'll be up soon, hope to see you.

Mark


petsfed


Aug 20, 2007, 12:54 PM
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dbrayack wrote:
Yah. Good post man, for sure.

I've hardly ever seen people take honest to God lead falls on trad gear....I see it all the time on sport climbs, its casual.

But if you're going to push yourself to the limit on trad climbs, shouldn't you be falling on them too? I guess there's a difference, like you said between a hard crack (pretty much consistent gear) and run-out face climbs...

Do any of you guys consistently take big falls on trad gear?

I watched a dude take pretty good sized whippers on every single piece he placed on Plumbline yesterday. Its a slightly overhanging 5.9 hand crack. The falls were clean, and the pro is really easy, so it was safe. He'd put in another cam when the previous one was just underneath his lower foot, and at one point he fell trying to clip a piece. When I attempted the route earlier that day, I bailed after clipping a piece at the exact same spot. We placed gear in the exact same spots, indeed from the exact same jams. I had not fallen or even hung. I'm not being arrogant when i say that I had quite a bit more technique than this guy, but I was unable to reconcile how I perceived the risk with the actual risk implicit to the climb, and that is why I failed.


bandycoot


Aug 20, 2007, 12:55 PM
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petsfed wrote:
Often in trad climbing, you'll see people backing off of routes well within their ability because they are afraid of falling and haven't developed the risk assessment skills that help them decide when its ok to fall or not.

I've backed off trad lines before because I was afraid of falling. I assessed the risks, and decided it wasn't OK to fall, and backed off. I usually get stronger and go back for the route later. Backing off is OK! Go throw a TR on it and learn from the climb.

You have to climb intelligently, and know when to back off if you're going to push you limits on trad. Trad isn't always safe, and it's not always OK to push your limits. Start pushing your limits on WELL PROTECTED trad, take some falls, learn, then move on to the more sketchy stuff with knowledge and experience.

Put 2 in before the crux if you can.

Josh

Edit: I've taken some good sized falls trad climbing, but I wouldn't say it's consistent. I'll put myself in the position to take big falls regularly, but I usually don't take them.


(This post was edited by bandycoot on Aug 20, 2007, 12:58 PM)


deschamps1000


Aug 20, 2007, 12:56 PM
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8flood8 wrote:
i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)

Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

I would thus encourage all of you 5.11 sport climbers to go out and give it a shot.


dreday3000


Aug 20, 2007, 1:12 PM
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I think its important to fall. I would say I fall at least once a day. I think that if more people were willing to test their gear, they would learn a lot faster.

If you're not falling, you're not pushing your limits and if you're not pushing your limits your not learning. How many old school tradheads do you know with that "the leader never falls ethos"? It ain't coincidence that the majority of those people never break the 5.10 range.

That said, you got to be careful to evaluate the quality of your placements and repercussions of your actions. Like what would happen if a piece blows? How likely is that piece to blow? Where is my next placement?

For the record, I have never been injured in a trad climbing accident. My gear is SOLID. Bruised my heal once ( on Lunatic Fringe at Doug Reed's Pinicale) but that's about it. Thus far, gym, sport, and bouldering has been far more dangerous.


murf


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See http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ost=1410196;#1410196 for one of the more definitive answers. Point seven is repeated above.


jonqdoe


Aug 20, 2007, 1:16 PM
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8flood8 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
he said that 1 in 20 good placements fail.

0 in 20 good placements fail. That's why they're "good."

Jay

"During my tests, about one in twenty good-looking placements pulled out when loaded. The challenge is to figure out why the cam pulled, and what could have been done to prevent this from happening. "

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1650449;search_string=1%20in%2020;#1650449



sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements, but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.

I have also seen that quote, and I really question its validity. Does that number really seem accurate to you, given how many people are willing to fall on gear? You also have to ask how their tests were performed and what kinds of falls the gear was experiencing. I couldn't find that info anywhere.


billl7


Aug 20, 2007, 1:17 PM
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dbrayack wrote:
Do any of you guys consistently take big falls on trad gear?
I don't consistently fall on trad gear. However, I've been leading just a couple years and so the majority of what I have led to date has been on terrain where a "protected" fall would still mean getting pretty banged up.

I've fallen on traditional pro on two routes this year (never during the previous). Both were on vertical cracks on very clean faces (splitter cracks?, and there was ample distance between "good-looking" pro and the belay ledge.

Bill L


crotch


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iamthewallress wrote:
If it was standard for fine looking placements to fail, then most/many people would fall roughly twice per C1 pitch of aid climbing where looking good is tends to be the preferred testing method before forging ahead. This simply doesn't happen with experienced climbers.

There's a diff. between failing under bodyweight and failing under the force of a lead fall.


andypro


Aug 20, 2007, 1:46 PM
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I'm going to have to agree with Jay. If 5% of all palcements failed, I'd be dead by now. I'm sure a lot more people on here would be too.

I've had 2 pieces refuse to do their job in the last 15 years or so and both are placements I half expected to fail anyways. One was a #3 BD nut in a crappy limestone crack. I pretty much new it wouldn't hold, but figured I'd take my chances and maybe it would hold anyways. When I came to a stop ~20 feet later, and it smacked me in the head, I knew on attempt two I'd have to try something different.

Piece number 2 was a #2 camalot in a muddy dirty crack. This one I kinda expected to hold. I gave it 75% chance. But I got hosed in the end. It jsut slid right out.


After thousands of placements, having only two pull....I wonder who's using up all of my 1 in 20 pulled pieces? How many people have been injured because I haven't been? Pirate (do you see the point in that statement?).


As for long falls....depends on what you consider long falls. I will regularly go between 10 and 15 feet, but I dont think thats a long fall (even though it's popular to call small falls like this "whippers" around this site). Sometimes I'll move into the 20-25 foot range, but not often. Once in a while up to the 40 footers...now those are whippers.

The crappy thing about big falls is that you have to climb all that over again. What a pain in the ass.

--Andy P


flamer


Aug 20, 2007, 2:20 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)

Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.


You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.
There are plenty of slab routes in the Valley, The South Platte, Red rocks and other places where the gear is bolts....they are generally very runout...and other gear is not an option. But they are not sport routes.
True sport routes are designed to eliminate the majority of the "danger" and aollow the climber to focus on the body movements of the climbing. Now it can be argued that there are plenty of "unsafe" sport routes out there. However when sport climbing was originally being developed that was the intent.
There were bolted traditional lines long before sport climbing came around.

The style has little to do with it IMHO...you can put up sport routes ground up and you can rap into Traditional lines and pre work or pre place gear.

josh


iamthewallress


Aug 20, 2007, 2:37 PM
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Re: [crotch] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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crotch wrote:
iamthewallress wrote:
If it was standard for fine looking placements to fail, then most/many people would fall roughly twice per C1 pitch of aid climbing where looking good is tends to be the preferred testing method before forging ahead. This simply doesn't happen with experienced climbers.

There's a diff. between failing under bodyweight and failing under the force of a lead fall.

Of course.

I was responding, largely to this:

In reply to:
sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements, but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.

Weighting gear tends to imply hanging on it or using it for aid purposes.


deschamps1000


Aug 20, 2007, 2:51 PM
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Re: [flamer] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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flamer wrote:
You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.

huh? You might be confusing "ground up" with "traditional." Traditional means that the protection is gear, not bolts.

Here you go: http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Climbing/Climbing_Dictionary_528.html#t


Partner j_ung


Aug 20, 2007, 3:10 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
flamer wrote:
You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.

huh? You might be confusing "ground up" with "traditional." Traditional means that the protection is gear, not bolts.

Here you go: http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Climbing/Climbing_Dictionary_528.html#t

Rockclimbing.com's definition of trad climbing is a little like the explanation a parent might give to a three-year old to explain why the gold fish is circling the toilet bowl.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Aug 20, 2007, 3:11 PM)


tim_b


Aug 20, 2007, 3:18 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Great subject, guys.

As a new trad climber (2 1/2 years) I've had 4 falls. Probably not enough to register with the likes of most of you. All were on solid gear, thankfully.

I just recently did my first 5.9 lead, on P1 of the Mt. Russell Fishhook Arete. It was thrilling and spooky, all at the same time.

I think the critical item that allowed me to lead that was that another buddy (Jeffrey, who did it the day before) told me that it was TOTALLY PROTECTABLE, "pro for days" as he said (he was right). That gave me the confidence to do it, otherwise, I might have (would have) backed off.

BTW, I led every pitch that day.


bent_gate


Aug 20, 2007, 3:19 PM
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Re: [dbrayack] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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I'm going to take this from another angle, which will still get objected to.

Only you can judge what amount of risk that is right for you and you are willing to accept. Your feelings and judment at the time may be different than when you look back later.

If looking back now, not under stress, you are not comfortable with the amount of risk that you took; then it was a wrong decision for you.

That's what you seem to be telling us. Only you can tell me if I'm wrong.


andypro


Aug 20, 2007, 3:43 PM
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bent_gate wrote:
If looking back now, not under stress, you are not comfortable with the amount of risk that you took; then it was a wrong decision for you.


Not objecting! Honest! Only providing a thought...

Those of us who have taken the trad sharp end for a while know the "OH SHIT I'M GONNA DIE!" feeling rather well. Noobs get it too, obviously. Theres no way to get rid of it completely. If you dont get it, you're either certifiable, or not pushing your limits.

But learning to deal with that feeling is VERY important. With time and experience, you'll learn to not so much fear it, but use it as a guage on what to do next. It will keep you alive, but you ahve to make the right decisions when you get that feeling. If you're scared out of your wits, your most likely going to make the wrong decision.


I'm not saying you should push into that zone of utter dispair for the express purpose of getting over it. That's just inviting trouble. Instead, when you get to the point of putting on your brown pants, relax and take a look around. Quickly find as many options as you can. Can you make it another move or two that will get you to solid pro? If you did fall, will you bounce all the way down tot he ground? Downclimb? Set a hasty anchor and bail? Perhaps put in a possibly marginal piece so you at least have a chance if you dont make those next few moves?


When you do finally get down (or up!) and get a chance to calm down, take a look at what got you into that situation. Was it avoidable? If so, lesson learned for next time. Was it unavoidable? That's where you have to ascertain your own willingness to put your ass on the line and cope with the feeling and push through. OR..stay on the ground.

Just my $.02.

--Andy P


jt512


Aug 20, 2007, 3:47 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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8flood8 wrote:
i know you always think you are right, J... but that is pretty much a quote, although i didn't look up the post so that i could quote it directly.

Quote or not, it's wrong.

In reply to:
Aren't you a sport climber anyway?

Nowadays, yeah; but I wasn't always.

Jay


mistajman


Aug 20, 2007, 3:50 PM
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Re: [dbrayack] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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I would say I consistently take falls when pushing my limits on trad climbs. Good gear holds, I agree with others if it was 1/20 I would def be dead by now. Sometimes if I know that I might take a big whipper I place 2 or 3 pieces and equalize them, and go for it. The biggest fall I've taken recently was a 40 footer on a climb at looking glass rock in North Carolina. But because I assesed the situation I was able to maintain good body position and come out unhurt.


flamer


Aug 20, 2007, 4:06 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
deschamps1000 wrote:
flamer wrote:
You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.

huh? You might be confusing "ground up" with "traditional." Traditional means that the protection is gear, not bolts.

Here you go: http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Climbing/Climbing_Dictionary_528.html#t

Rockclimbing.com's definition of trad climbing is a little like the explanation a parent might give to a three-year old to explain why the gold fish is circling the toilet bowl.

HaHa! Jung is spot on with his evaluation.

I know the difference between "ground up" and "traditional". And I know that they are not always one in the same...but they could be.

I also know the difference between a Traditional climb that is protected by bolts and a sport route.
...if you are really questioning my knowledge of the difference, a good thing to look at is a profile before you make assumptions.

Thanks for the laugh Jung!

josh


live2climb


Aug 20, 2007, 4:07 PM
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its ALL in your head man. gear is bomber if you use it right so whats the problem, i think your holding yourself back with thoughts like this one, think positive man you can do it and if not the go back to bouldering and face climbing but stay safe and smart or dont do it at all but cams nuts chalks tubes ect all good medecian man trus yourself and you will be fine
james


notapplicable


Aug 20, 2007, 4:30 PM
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Re: [andypro] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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There's nothing quite like being two body lengths above your last piece with your knees a knockin, crying for you mommy and promising the lord if you make it out alive you will never leave the ground again. Then perservering to the top and realizing that was precisely the experience you were looking for. Sometimes its only in retrospect that we can accurately assess the true nature of the experience we just had.

Thats not to say that you should always risk the fall, hell when I start sketching I back off more times than I go for it. If I didn't I'd either be dead or not have any projects, either way, whats the fun in that?


rocknice2


Aug 20, 2007, 4:33 PM
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Re: [dbrayack] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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I've seen this many times, mostly from sport climbers who finally take up trad.
"I'm a 5.11 climber. I can do that 5.10..... Pfffft!"

Trad is not sport. Your not used to gaging crack sizes nor instantly recognizing a perfect spot for a cam/nut/tricam/etc... Protecting a change in direction, a traverse, an overlap, a roof??.... Marginal gear.... Protecting the second...... The list goes on and we haven't even touch the anchor yet.

The best advice is :
'Don't push both both physical and technical limits at the same time'

Remember that protection ratings are based on an experienced climber with an appropriate rack. As a new trad climber you should bump up the pro grade. [ie: pg=pg13...pg13=R...etc..]

Your NOT a weenie for stepping down 3 or 4 #grades. Find a long easy well protected multi-pitch to do. You probably won't do it latter when you have more experience so do yourself a favour and do it now.

You need to develop your placing in real climbing situations so placing pieces on the ground is a smart start but in no way makes up for experience.

My $.02


moose_droppings


Aug 20, 2007, 4:52 PM
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Re: [andypro] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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andypro wrote:
After thousands of placements, having only two pull....I wonder who's using up all of my 1 in 20 pulled pieces? How many people have been injured because I haven't been? Pirate (do you see the point in that statement?).

In your 15 years of climbing, if you have fallen 40 times with 2 coming out, that would be 5%. But I'm sure you've fallen more times than that.

In reply to:
If 5% of all palcements failed, I'd be dead by now. I'm sure a lot more people on here would be too.

You have had 2 fail and your not dead, so that kinda ups the percentage that can pull without killing ya.


crotch


Aug 20, 2007, 4:54 PM
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Re: [iamthewallress] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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iamthewallress wrote:
crotch wrote:
There's a diff. between failing under bodyweight and failing under the force of a lead fall.

Of course.

I was responding, largely to this:

In reply to:
sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements, but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.

Weighting gear tends to imply hanging on it or using it for aid purposes.

My bad. I thought you were commenting on the plausibility of the 1 in 20 statement.


andypro


Aug 20, 2007, 5:34 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
You have had 2 fail and your not dead, so that kinda ups the percentage that can pull without killing ya.

That could possibly be true if I could tell you how many times I've fallen. If I have only fallen 40 times, then I'm already ahead of the game.Tongue


(This post was edited by andypro on Aug 20, 2007, 5:35 PM)


iamthewallress


Aug 20, 2007, 5:53 PM
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Re: [crotch] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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crotch wrote:
iamthewallress wrote:
crotch wrote:
There's a diff. between failing under bodyweight and failing under the force of a lead fall.

Of course.

I was responding, largely to this:

In reply to:
sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements, but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.

Weighting gear tends to imply hanging on it or using it for aid purposes.

My bad. I thought you were commenting on the plausibility of the 1 in 20 statement.

To some degree I am...I still think 1 in 20 visually 'good' placements in good rock will fail in a reasonable leader fall only if someone is clueless or is very liberal with what they call good.

I'd be interested to see what % of injuries due to lead falls were about gear failing though. I'd bet it's less than a third.


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Aug 20, 2007, 5:55 PM)


moose_droppings


Aug 20, 2007, 6:08 PM
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Andy,
I agree, your ahead of the game.

All that air time,,, you must have a pilots license.
Wink Smile


justroberto


Aug 20, 2007, 6:11 PM
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dbrayack wrote:
Do any of you guys consistently take big falls on trad gear?

I don't. As for the head factor, catching my buddy on a 25-footer on Simple Harmonic Motion down at Beauty Mountain was a turning point. It helped me to trust that the right gear would hold a pretty decent fall. I still get sketched a little bit, but not nearly as much...


Partner angry


Aug 20, 2007, 6:14 PM
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I'm happier with myself when I fall on gear. The lead head waxes and wanes for me though. Last month I was taking falls and smacking a block just as the rope caught. Yesterday, I was taking like a bitch (on an easier route).

Head issues aside, you just have to know when to hold em and know when to fold em.

RE: The Bachar Yerian, sarcasm Besides, wouldn't we all love to hear an epic trip report of 5.11 sport climbers on that thing?


jt512


Aug 20, 2007, 6:49 PM
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8flood8 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
he said that 1 in 20 good placements fail.

0 in 20 good placements fail. That's why they're "good."

Jay

"During my tests, about one in twenty good-looking placements pulled out when loaded. The challenge is to figure out why the cam pulled, and what could have been done to prevent this from happening. "

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1650449;search_string=1%20in%2020;#1650449

sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements...

Apparently I don't have to, since you seem to have figured it out yourself.

In reply to:
...but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.

Determining visually when a placement is good isn't rocket science. To gain some confidence in your ability to judge good from bad, spend some time placing gear near the ground and jumping on the gear.

Jay


gramps


Aug 20, 2007, 7:36 PM
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You can push it safely in trad climbing, but you have to pick your battles and be technically competent a lot more than in sport. I was on a route the other day that was a granite splitter crack at my limit and I still had the full on scarefest experience near the top. When you've got a limited amount of gear to work with and are climbing a sustained, pumpy route, you've got to make decisions that you just don't have to make sport climbing. Like deciding whether or not to place from a very strenuous position even though it means you'll probably pump out and fall, or continue to climb, hoping for a better stance or jam to place from, but risk a big fall. That can cause some head games, even on a route where you could get pro anywhere.

As for the 1 in 20 thing, come on. I don't know that guy's methodology but properly placed gear in good rock fails a miniscule fraction of the time. Anybody who climbs hard trad knows that, or at least believes it, you have to to climb hard above your gear.


joeforte


Aug 20, 2007, 7:36 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
There's nothing quite like being two body lengths above your last piece with your knees a knockin, crying for you mommy and promising the lord if you make it out alive you will never leave the ground again. Then perservering to the top and realizing that was precisely the experience you were looking for. Sometimes its only in retrospect that we can accurately assess the true nature of the experience we just had.

This is THE REASON I climb trad. The feeling is more intense than anything I've ever felt.

If the gear is good, clean fall, and you have 2 pieces between you and the ground, GO FOR IT!!!!

When the gear is bad however, it's time to switch to SOLO MODE.

You won't know good gear from bad gear until you start taking some falls on it. Just remember to back it up! Lace up an overhanging G rated crack with 5-6 pieces and start whipping once you're well off the deck.


(This post was edited by joeforte on Aug 20, 2007, 7:39 PM)


petsfed


Aug 20, 2007, 7:51 PM
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angry wrote:
I'm happier with myself when I fall on gear. The lead head waxes and wanes for me though. Last month I was taking falls and smacking a block just as the rope caught. Yesterday, I was taking like a bitch (on an easier route).

Taking like a bitch on a hard fuckin' route just the same. I think the heckling never really reached the pitch necessary to send.


iamthewallress


Aug 20, 2007, 8:06 PM
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Would you use a racial slur in place of bitch, and would it last on the page more than 10 seconds?


8flood8


Aug 20, 2007, 8:10 PM
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you don't have to assume that "bitch" is a woman!


iamthewallress


Aug 20, 2007, 8:12 PM
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I don't have to assume nigger refers to black people either, but that's who will find it really fucking offensive...especially if it's used to mean something that's is bad.


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Aug 20, 2007, 8:13 PM)


Partner angry


Aug 20, 2007, 8:16 PM
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Oh for fuck's sake. Get off your soap box. You know what I meant. I'm not changing my comment.

To get back on subject. I feel comfortable whipping on my gear, even though I was a jew about a lot of it and got it cheap or used.


8flood8


Aug 20, 2007, 8:17 PM
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funny because i don't assume women or black people by use of either of those terms.

not to mention... its the internet!!! chill out a bit!


curt


Aug 20, 2007, 8:18 PM
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Wait....is this The Ladies' Room...?

Curt


curt


Aug 20, 2007, 8:22 PM
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deschamps1000 wrote:
flamer wrote:
You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.

huh? You might be confusing "ground up" with "traditional." Traditional means that the protection is gear, not bolts...

Kudos for forcefully and purposely impersonating someone who knows what they're talking about.

Curt


dingus


Aug 20, 2007, 8:30 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

Nope. You're wrong.

DMT


deschamps1000


Aug 20, 2007, 8:43 PM
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Re: [dingus] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
deschamps1000 wrote:
Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

Nope. You're wrong.

DMT

ha, ha. Definitely bring a #5 camalot to the next sport climbing area you go to. Definitely bring it with you, along with other cams, on every sport climb.


dingus


Aug 20, 2007, 8:49 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Go tell the Spartans:

http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=375380

DMT


knieveltech


Aug 20, 2007, 8:57 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
dingus wrote:
deschamps1000 wrote:
Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

Nope. You're wrong.

DMT

ha, ha. Definitely bring a #5 camalot to the next sport climbing area you go to. Definitely bring it with you, along with other cams, on every sport climb.

WTF is wrong with having a link cam or two hanging off your harness while climbing sport? You never know when a couple cams could come in handy, especially if you're of a mind to go off-route.


sed


Aug 20, 2007, 9:43 PM
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Re: [crotch] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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A bit of statistics. To calculate the risk I would multiply the probability of falling by the probability of the placement being faulty. If you fall one time for for every 10 routes you climb that is .10. If we assume .05 of gear placements are faulty (which is very much doubt) then the odds of falling on faulty gear are .005, which means that for every 200 routes you climb you can expect to fall on faulty gear 1 time. Most of us don't fall that often and 5% of gear being faulty seems high. Also, saying you are falling on faulty gear does not say anything about the outcome of that fall. In addition, people tend to protect crux areas differently and therefore the typical placement stats probably do not apply to many of the placements we would use in the times we are most likely to fall. Or that's how I see it anyway.
S


asclepius


Aug 20, 2007, 10:56 PM
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Re: [flamer] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Bachar-yerian is a sport route since it is protected by bolts... yep all 4 of them.

Aid climbing will make you a better gear climber, ice climbing will make you a better runout climber.

It's all climbing, only the protection type changes, why is that such a big deal to so many people?

I guess if you don't know the protection medium in any case it is dangerous.


(This post was edited by asclepius on Aug 20, 2007, 11:01 PM)


crotch


Aug 20, 2007, 11:46 PM
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swede


Aug 21, 2007, 1:00 AM
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Re: [crotch] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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As you have noted there is a difference (between trad and sport).

The chain of protection makes it more difficult to make a good judgement of the risks. Experience is the key to knowing which placements are good and how the chain of pro works in each case. Therefore you are seldom ”safe” as you are used to in sport – instead it is a gradient from nonprotected to very well protected. Therefore a tradfall is never to be taken consciously without thinking twice about it (if you are as experienced as some on RC.com you probably do that calculation without even thinking about it).

You have to read the route before you commit. As you have noted some trad routes are in reality solo routes. It´s up to you to decide how much risk you are willing to take. In my world it´s much more courageous to climb down than to continue a route that you don´t think is adequately protected. The rock does not care if I make it or not, but my wife does.

Many beginner leaders think falls are necessary (for the head game). They are not – experience will get you there also (but do take longer time). Falls are a way to find a shortcut, but the gains with such a strategy are directly related to the risk involved. And – if you win over your head but lacks enough experience with the trad game – you will just end up in hospital or worse (because you are basically solo climbing with a rope dangling behind you).


ADZZL


Aug 21, 2007, 2:40 AM
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Re: [asclepius] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Just wondering if any of the people claiming the B/Y is a sport route have ever been on it.

Also wondering if they would call it a sport route in front of Bachar in person.

My guess: the answer is no in both cases.


azrockclimber


Aug 21, 2007, 4:35 AM
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Re: [flamer] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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flamer wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
the cool thing about hard trad is you can always aid it!

Really?
Ever heard of Jules Verne? Or The Bachar/ Yerian? What about Risky Business in Red rocks?

There are LOT'S of hard trad lines that can't be aided.
Don't ever assume you can always "just" aid.

josh


right...

defintiely can't count on "just aiding it"....

it doesn't go down like that....


azrockclimber


Aug 21, 2007, 4:39 AM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)

Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

I would thus encourage all of you 5.11 sport climbers to go out and give it a shot.


Nope... completely wrong...this has been covered a million times.... you are in the minority if you believe that.....


reg


Aug 21, 2007, 5:48 AM
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Re: [jt512] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
he said that 1 in 20 "good" placements fail.

0 in 20 good placements fail. That's why they're "good."

Jay

nice catch jay - quess "good" should be in quotes


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 9:11 AM
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Re: [swede] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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swede wrote:
Therefore a tradfall is never to be taken consciously without thinking twice about it

Personally, I never take anything consciously without thinking about it.

Jay


Partner angry


Aug 21, 2007, 9:12 AM
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jt512 wrote:
swede wrote:
Therefore a tradfall is never to be taken consciously without thinking twice about it

Personally, I never take anything consciously without thinking about it.

Jay

That's deep


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 9:15 AM
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Re: [angry] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
To get back on subject. I feel comfortable whipping on my gear, even though I was a jew about a lot of it and got it cheap or used.

That is offensive, BTW.

Jay


dleighto


Aug 21, 2007, 9:17 AM
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jt512 wrote:
swede wrote:
Therefore a tradfall is never to be taken consciously without thinking twice about it

Personally, I never take anything consciously without thinking about it.

Jay

But I imagine there are many things that you have consciously decided upon after only thinking once about them.

Daniel


stonefoxgirl


Aug 21, 2007, 9:40 AM
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Re: [dbrayack] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Sure was a fun one to follow!


asclepius


Aug 21, 2007, 9:48 AM
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Re: [ADZZL] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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ADZZL,

I was planning on heading up there this weekend to retro bolt all four pitches, it would be super classic! Then my gym jockey friends and I can hang dog it all day and use words like "rad", "sick", and "brah."






Sarcasm, like bold climbing, is an art lost to many.


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 21, 2007, 1:32 PM
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Re: [asclepius] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?


bandycoot


Aug 21, 2007, 1:46 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

Just because you can't climb at your physical limit when you're trad climbing doesn't mean that others don't. I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing. As you said yourself, you don't understand. The questions is, have you TRIED to understand? It's really not that hard...

My hardest trad and sport onsights are probably both 5.12a, and my hardest sport redpoint is only 2 letter grades harder than my hardest trad redpoint. Doesn't seem to keep me very far from climbing at my physical limit. In fact, I'd say I am climbing at my physical limit.


caughtinside


Aug 21, 2007, 1:51 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit.

Is that the only allure in climbing?

Trad cragging is fun? Crack climbing is fun? You can still climb hard while trad cragging?

Not really sure what else to say... you don't get the allure of trad cragging? What about windsurfing? harry potter books? Developing a cultivated taste in wine?

maybe it just ain't your thing and thats that.


irregularpanda


Aug 21, 2007, 1:56 PM
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flamer wrote:
deschamps1000 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)

Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.


You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.
There are plenty of slab routes in the Valley, The South Platte, Red rocks and other places where the gear is bolts....they are generally very runout...and other gear is not an option. But they are not sport routes.
True sport routes are designed to eliminate the majority of the "danger" and aollow the climber to focus on the body movements of the climbing. Now it can be argued that there are plenty of "unsafe" sport routes out there. However when sport climbing was originally being developed that was the intent.
There were bolted traditional lines long before sport climbing came around.

The style has little to do with it IMHO...you can put up sport routes ground up and you can rap into Traditional lines and pre work or pre place gear.

josh

I totally agree. There are cefinitely bolted trad routes. "from the ground up"
Tooth and claw is a .12c slab with 25 feet between bolts (that I probably won't do) That was developed from the ground up. Before the rap bolting revolution there were only bolts where it was needed


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 21, 2007, 1:56 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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"I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing."

I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after- If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

If you are doing something to slow you down and require you to fiddle with something(such as drinking a gatorade, solving a crossword puzzle, or placing little camalot thingys in the rock), you are not climbing at your physical limit.


bandycoot


Aug 21, 2007, 2:01 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
"I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing."

I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after- If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

If you are doing something to slow you down and require you to fiddle with something(such as drinking a gatorade, solving a crossword puzzle, or placing little camalot thingys in the rock), you are not climbing at your physical limit.

T0-


petsfed


Aug 21, 2007, 2:43 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after- If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

No man. In fact, fuck no man. The reason I've nearly puked (and in fact have puked) on any trad climb is because the climbing is that bloody hard. Offwidth (which is the only style that really induces puking) whips the shit out of you, but if you can move upwards on it, then you absolutely have a good enough stance to place pro from, maybe even score a no-hands rest. Its just that your abs are flexing so much that you want to puke afterwards.

For virtually every other size crack, if you can figure out how to jam correctly on it, every single move is a solid clipping stance, solid enough that you can find placements easily. That or you haven't found the clipping stance.

And anyway, if all climbing was really just about pure physical difficulty, we'd all be low-ball boulderers. You don't have to be climbing at your limit to enjoy yourself.


fitzontherocks


Aug 21, 2007, 2:53 PM
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jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
To get back on subject. I feel comfortable whipping on my gear, even though I was a jew about a lot of it and got it cheap or used.

That is offensive, BTW.

Jay

That is funny, BTW.


deschamps1000


Aug 21, 2007, 3:03 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit.

Not necesssarily. My hardes sport onsight is 12a and hardest trad onsight is 11c. I have found that as I become a better trad climber, gear placements become fast and efficient and no longer demand much strength.

I enjoy trad cragging because I love the movements and techniques involved in climbing cracks. I also enjoy face climbing movements but the two techniques are different.


andypro


Aug 21, 2007, 3:09 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear.


Your assuming that everyone elses definition of difficulty and achievement are the same as your own.

Sport climbing was developed the way it has been to remove the logistics from the climb so the climber can concentrate on the movement. It doesn't remove the thought required for the climb, but changes what kind of thinking is required.

Trad climbing is a lot more "brain busy". You have to put thought not only into your current position, but everything that you have done and possibly will do on that particular pitch. It all has to work together as a system, and that system must contain the thought and experience of the climber. This is all on top of the actual climbing itself.

To me, that is a much greater accomplishment, as a whole, than climbing the biggest numbers I can possibly do.

--Andy P


tradmanclimbs


Aug 21, 2007, 3:16 PM
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Nice post Andy.


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 3:37 PM
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petsfed wrote:
For virtually every other size crack [ie, except off-width], if you can figure out how to jam correctly on it, every single move is a solid clipping stance, solid enough that you can find placements easily.

That statement is doubly absurd because (1) not every move is a solid clipping stance and (2) not every possible clipping stance affords a good placement.

Jay


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 3:37 PM
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fitzontherocks wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
To get back on subject. I feel comfortable whipping on my gear, even though I was a jew about a lot of it and got it cheap or used.

That is offensive, BTW.

Jay

That is funny, BTW.

It wasn't meant to be.

Jay


dingus


Aug 21, 2007, 3:49 PM
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bandycoot wrote:
CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

Just because you can't climb at your physical limit when you're trad climbing doesn't mean that others don't. I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing. As you said yourself, you don't understand. The questions is, have you TRIED to understand? It's really not that hard...

My hardest trad and sport onsights are probably both 5.12a, and my hardest sport redpoint is only 2 letter grades harder than my hardest trad redpoint. Doesn't seem to keep me very far from climbing at my physical limit. In fact, I'd say I am climbing at my physical limit.

Self sufficiency. Climbing mountains. Doing wild climbs in remote areas.

A sport climber is forever beholden to the Route Developer. Sport climbing cannot be done without modification to the rock. Its an urban pursuit.

Nothing wrong with that per se, mind you. But sport climbing is a one trick pony.

DMT


djride


Aug 21, 2007, 3:59 PM
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All of my favourite sends are trad sends. Yes, I can lead about 3 letter grades higher on edgy bolted face than I can on trad splitters and on massively run out trad slab (by massively run out I mean gear placements as much as 20m apart- not 3 m like some sport climbers take as scary). But, I have made moves in trad climbing that I would have failed on in sport - because my risk assessment told me I had to make the move given the #3 rp i would hit from 5 metres up). I have taken a 20' fall onto a not-so-good but best available .5 camalot placement, with 500 feet of exposure below me, smiled as it did its job and caught me anyway, and then had to make that same move onto the same piece of now well-worked protection minutes later. That's what trad climbing is about, and that's why I find it more rewarding than sport. If climbing is about being able to tell the boys at the bar you hit that 5.13, good for you. I prefer to know that I faced real fear, made real choices, with real consequences, and got to the top of the route. For me, that is the essence of climbing - and when you are climbing trad it doesn't matter if its 5.9 or 5.11, its still one hell of an accomplishment when you walk off at the top.


dingus


Aug 21, 2007, 4:02 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

This makes the value judgement that placing pro isn't part of climbing. And it isn't I suppose, if you're beholden to faceless route setters and clipping hangers you didn't buy and place yourself.

It limits your potential in so many ways. Like a car that can only run on even paved surfaces, sure it can probably go faster than my 4wd.

Now take your Porsche turbowhatever and follow me down a sunny dirt road deep in bear country....

If you can't drive down a 4wd road you can't be *driving at your limit.*

See? Apples to oranges.

DMT


Partner baja_java


Aug 21, 2007, 4:34 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

CinnamonJohnson wrote:
"I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing."

I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after- If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

If you are doing something to slow you down and require you to fiddle with something(such as drinking a gatorade, solving a crossword puzzle, or placing little camalot thingys in the rock), you are not climbing at your physical limit.

so why don't you free-solo, at your limit? then you wouldn't have to pretend you're climbing at your physical limit when you're obviously wasting energy fiddling with draws and toting a rope and harness

can someone please explain the allure of living a lie??


rocknice2


Aug 21, 2007, 4:54 PM
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This reminds me of the time a friend of mine found out I was cimbing at a crag near his cottage. With a puzzled look he said " Your crazy to climb that cliff when there is an easy trail to the top, over there."


Why trad you ask.
It's more rewarding ...... to me.


knieveltech


Aug 21, 2007, 4:55 PM
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In reply to:
And anyway, if all climbing was really just about pure physical difficulty, we'd all be low-ball boulderers. You don't have to be climbing at your limit to enjoy yourself.

Word!


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 21, 2007, 5:56 PM
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Your post doesnt make sense. Everyone can sport climb a lot harder than they can free-solo. You should have said, Why dont you just top-rope instead of lead sport. That would have been a much better argument..


skinner


Aug 21, 2007, 6:08 PM
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swede wrote:
because you are basically solo climbing with a rope dangling behind you

That's how I described it when my belayer fell asleep.


Partner baja_java


Aug 21, 2007, 6:26 PM
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you're telling me you can't push your physical limits even more without having to clip and tote the extra weight? there are other reasons people lead harder than what they free-solo. that whole death and dying thing being one, which is mental, not physical

you're the one making like the physical limit is the end all and be all. pretty limiting, ought to know by now


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 21, 2007, 6:32 PM
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Look, you cant climb at your physical limit when you are free-soloing because you have the death thing in your way. This is consistent with my argument. Trad climbing is climbing with "stuff" in your way(placing gear). Free-soloing is climbing with "stuff" in your way(death, not being able to fully push yourself, go for moves dynamically...)


yekcir


Aug 21, 2007, 7:12 PM
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In reply to:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

I reach my physical limit all of the time trad climbing. Sometimes it's a couple of tough moves over a string of good pro. Other times it's getting out into the danger zone facing big fall potential into not so clean air.

Try pulling the crux moves high over your gear after the fear has crept in. Then try keeping it together to find some good pro, cause that's the only thing that can save you now. Maybe you get it, shaking like a bitch because all you can hear is the clock ticking, louder and louder. Your arms burning, your calves going like a sewing machine on meth, and your brain tumbling down into the void that's tugging at your heels, where you may very well end up, never climbing again. It's fight or flight, and if you don't keep your shit together, the flight will be a long one. There is no escape but up.

Welcome to climbing at your physical limit.


Partner baja_java


Aug 21, 2007, 7:35 PM
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so this ideal of max physical prowess of yours isn't truly what it could be to begin with, because of this whole death and dying thing, that you wouldn't mind compromising with the hassle and weight of some gear. sounds like a pretty contrived exercise, whatever it is that you do

we're all limited from what we can ideally climb in so many ways. looking down on another style of climbing because of that is pretty pointless. we all have different ideas of hard, and different ideas of fun


Partner angry


Aug 21, 2007, 8:33 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
Your post doesnt make sense. Everyone can sport climb a lot harder than they can free-solo. You should have said, Why dont you just top-rope instead of lead sport. That would have been a much better argument..

Why don't you make that arguement then? We all surely top rope harder than we sport lead.

Oh, I've onsighted 12b/c trad on my best days. I've onsighted 12a sport routes on my best days. Eat my ass.


dalguard


Aug 21, 2007, 8:37 PM
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In reply to:
I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after
It's a different kind of puking. You might not like it but you won't know until you try it.


skinner


Aug 21, 2007, 9:26 PM
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dingus wrote:
Self sufficiency. Climbing mountains. Doing wild climbs in remote areas.

A sport climber is forever beholden to the Route Developer. Sport climbing cannot be done without modification to the rock. Its an urban pursuit.

Nothing wrong with that per se, mind you. But sport climbing is a one trick pony.
DMT

Well said.


deschamps1000


Aug 21, 2007, 9:31 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
Look, you cant climb at your physical limit when you are free-soloing because you have the death thing in your way. This is consistent with my argument. Trad climbing is climbing with "stuff" in your way(placing gear). Free-soloing is climbing with "stuff" in your way(death, not being able to fully push yourself, go for moves dynamically...)

If you want to play that game: Sport climbing is climbing with "stuff" in your way. Why not just boulder or toprope where you can focus on the hardest moves? The answer is, because there is much more to climbing than simply pulling the hardest moves.


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 10:44 PM
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dalguard wrote:
In reply to:
I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after
It's a different kind of puking. You might not like it but you won't know until you try it.

Hey, Dawn, I can only speak for myself, but I think I've experienced enough types of puking (hungover, norovirus, four-by-four, offwidth) to be able to generalize my experience to all types of puking, including any types of puking I may not yet have experienced.

Planning any trips out West these days?

Jay


vegastradguy


Aug 21, 2007, 11:51 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
Look, you cant climb at your physical limit when you are free-soloing because you have the death thing in your way.

just because the 'death thing' is in your way doesn't mean its in other peoples way.


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 22, 2007, 6:29 AM
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No, I think the death thing holds everyone back while free-soloing. Alex Huber soloed a .14a, which is very hard. But, he F'd a few .14ds in the A. Pretty big difference.

And why are all you trad goobers so obsessed with puking? I'd say you all sound like youre bulimic, except arent trad climbers usually kinda overweight...?


dalguard


Aug 22, 2007, 7:27 AM
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Hey, Jay. I know I don't have to explain trad climbing to you, you sport-climbing pretender.

No CA on the horizon, I'm afraid. Need to find some new road tripping partners.


billl7


Aug 22, 2007, 7:41 AM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
And why are all you trad goobers so obsessed with puking? I'd say you all sound like youre bulimic, except arent trad climbers usually kinda overweight...?
Evidence that the craving to feel better about oneself isn't limited to trad-style climbers.


ericbeyeler


Aug 22, 2007, 9:12 AM
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yekcir wrote:
In reply to:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

I reach my physical limit all of the time trad climbing. Sometimes it's a couple of tough moves over a string of good pro. Other times it's getting out into the danger zone facing big fall potential into not so clean air.

Try pulling the crux moves high over your gear after the fear has crept in. Then try keeping it together to find some good pro, cause that's the only thing that can save you now. Maybe you get it, shaking like a bitch because all you can hear is the clock ticking, louder and louder. Your arms burning, your calves going like a sewing machine on meth, and your brain tumbling down into the void that's tugging at your heels, where you may very well end up, never climbing again. It's fight or flight, and if you don't keep your shit together, the flight will be a long one. There is no escape but up.

Welcome to climbing at your physical limit.

Awesome post.
Trad climbing is about so much more than your "physical limit".

Dark clouds getting nearer, thunder booming through the canyon, need to get to the next belay so we can bail before getting barbecued, last micronut 20 feet below and 40 feet to the left, holds getting thinner, there's a big crack just ahead, one more move, ah, stuff a cam in there, bring up the second, let's get outta here!
<recent trip to Eldorado Canyon>


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 22, 2007, 9:54 AM
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I'm just playing. I'm actually thinking about knocking down a couple of trad pitches this weekend.

I just like seeing the traddies get worked up and say crap like "sewing machine leg", and "danger zone".


rockies


Aug 26, 2007, 3:09 PM
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On the contrary, I find sport climbing more challenging than trad climbing; because you aren't placing your gear on sport climbs and have to climb only where the bolts are.

I like placing gear where I want it.


billcoe_


Aug 26, 2007, 6:40 PM
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Canadian fella jumped on a 5.10 crack at Smith a few years back. Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out, including the one he had fallen (successfully) twice on.

Died right there. No more climbing. Or anything.

I see stuff like that and I say yes.


deschamps1000


Aug 26, 2007, 7:42 PM
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billcoe_ wrote:
Canadian fella jumped on a 5.10 crack at Smith a few years back. Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out, including the one he had fallen (successfully) twice on.

Died right there. No more climbing. Or anything.

I see stuff like that and I say yes.

Wow, that's intense. How dead was he when they got to him?


(This post was edited by deschamps1000 on Aug 26, 2007, 7:43 PM)


flint


Aug 26, 2007, 8:41 PM
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djride wrote:
For me, that is the essence of climbing - and when you are climbing trad it doesn't matter if its 5.9 or 5.11, its still one hell of an accomplishment when you walk off at the top.

Exactly

I can develop a line where I place blots that I feel comfortable clipping, I am 6'4" and the next 5'6" climber may think the route is extremely hard due to the clips. Trad climbing alows you the control of your gear, and ulitmatly the route.

Plus, it is nice to go put up a line somewhere that you know no one has even climbed, but more importantly, not leaving a trace so that the same experience can happen and be shared by someone else in 20 years.


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 4:58 AM
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In reply to:
Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out
In reply to:
this really makes me consider the thought that i had about the acceptance of my inevitable death and the cherishing of that certainty. (Ala Stranger in a strange land)

because i am pushing my trad envelope at the moment, as evidenced by the bd#6 i just purchased, this makes me wonder if i am competent to lead the 5.10 layback crack, that my buddy and i found on our last trip out... especially now that i read that it goes to bigger than the #6...

am i dumb for running this route out with a #6 in my hand instead of a valley giant?

( image will be resized and posted later today, sorry i'm about to go to school )


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 5:03 AM
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as promised



innominate 5.10


degaine


Aug 27, 2007, 5:49 AM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

You've never climbed at Snowshed wall at Donner Summit, have you?

deschamps1000 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)

Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

I would thus encourage all of you 5.11 sport climbers to go out and give it a shot.

I honestly thought that deschamps1000 was being sarcastic with this comment.


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 27, 2007, 7:11 AM
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No, I havent. Whats going down on the Snowshed Wall?

Is that your stomping ground or something? Do tell us about your sick sends over there...


dingus


Aug 27, 2007, 7:14 AM
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Its perhaps the strangest cliff in all the Californias. It is a pitch tall but is both bottomless and topless!



Go figger!

DMT


degaine


Aug 27, 2007, 7:29 AM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
No, I havent. Whats going down on the Snowshed Wall?

Is that your stomping ground or something? Do tell us about your sick sends over there...

I never mentioned anything about "sick sends" in my post.

Anyway, Donner Summit has a bunch of different climbing areas / cliffs, and Snowshed Wall is one area. To the base of the wall it's about a 3 minute walk from the pullout.

My friend Michael called it "sport-trad". There's a series of splitter cracks one after the other - you barely have to move your rope and bag when changing climbs (especially in the area where Dingus's photo is taken). Just plug and go. You sew up just about every climb and can place a piece and clip there as fast as pulling a draw off your harness and clipping a bolt. Many people, including myself, have pushed their limits at this site.

Now, my "limit" is extremely modest compared to most, but regardless of what that limit is, I've pushed it in that very spot. At one point my hardest redpoint was one of the gear climbs at Snowshed.

Personally (read my own personal experience and opinion) I'd trust a cam I've placed in the bullet proof granite of Snowshed wall much more than many bolts I've come across. And that includes the third bolt (spinner) on Aerial, a sport climb 20 yards up from the climb in Dingus's photo.


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 10:27 AM
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so how does the quoted "%5" of "good looking gear pullouts (read failure)" bide with you?


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 10:30 AM
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I love it when an offwidth has gear that doesn't require the use of huge cams... not the case in the aforementioned innominate...

as i promised, i will get a working pic of the route up on the site, the one i submitted this morning was mis-sized and the one i linked, doesn't allow direct linkage to this site, so i guess you gotta join erock online if you want to see my pic, until i get the correct one up... jeeze where is my internet/brain connection, so i could just upload it instantaneously from my seat here in class.


degaine


Aug 27, 2007, 12:53 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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8flood8 wrote:
so how does the quoted "%5" of "good looking gear pullouts (read failure)" bide with you?

(I won't just read "failure", I'll guess that you meant failure of the placement and not of the cam/nut).

Based on your prior definition of a "sport" climb - i.e. any climb that is protected solely by bolts - I have far more confidence in my gear placements than, say, many quarter inch spinners I've come across in Tuolumne Meadows (quick side note thanks to ASCA for their work in replacing many of those old bolts!).

Personally (that is in my own personal experience and how I climb when on lead) I place a two pieces of protection in a situation where I am unsure of a placement, or for just peace of mind before a cruxy section I'll place two pieces (sometimes equalized with a sling). As far as Snowshed wall at Donner is concerned, one can place gear at will, and I have lead climbs much more well protected than many sport climbs I've lead (read I had the opportunity to place as much as I thought necessary, where I thought necessary).

Talk to anyone who has climbed at Indian Creek which has splitter cracks where one can place a number 1 and 2 Camalots at will. Afterwards ask them how much they trust bolts at Indian Creek (if memory serves, drilled angles are the fixed gear of choice).

Do you really trust any and every bolt you come across?

In any case, just confirming that from where I humbly sit, that crags do exist where one can push one's climbing level gear climbing as safely as any sport climb.

Quick P.S. to add that I do consider "safe" to be a relative term when discussing climbing.


(This post was edited by degaine on Aug 27, 2007, 12:54 PM)


degaine


Aug 27, 2007, 12:56 PM
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Re: [dingus] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Its perhaps the strangest cliff in all the Californias. It is a pitch tall but is both bottomless and topless!

[img]http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7747/donner15dt.jpg[/img]

Go figger!

DMT

I'd tell that guy to get his monkey paws out of his chalk bag and to start climbing!


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 27, 2007, 1:42 PM
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Re: [degaine] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Oh yeah, Donner Summit. Thats where that "Steep Climb Named Desire" route is. I got ya. That thing looks awesome. I saw that video in Painted Spider. Looks pretty sick. Good call.


bandycoot


Aug 27, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
Canadian fella jumped on a 5.10 crack at Smith a few years back. Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out, including the one he had fallen (successfully) twice on.

Died right there. No more climbing. Or anything.

I see stuff like that and I say yes.

But, you can push your limits while trad climbing, safely. You need to build a level of experience and skill, then push yourself when the route can be climbed safely. For a climb to be safe, you need good gear, the ability to climb the "unsafe" territory" without falling, clean falls if your going to fall, or other factors. In the case of Smith Rock, that guy shouldn't have been pushing himself on that rock. I lead a few trad lines there, and the rock quality is complete crap for trad climbing (at least relative to what I'm used to).


collegekid


Aug 27, 2007, 2:55 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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bandycoot wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
Canadian fella jumped on a 5.10 crack at Smith a few years back. Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out, including the one he had fallen (successfully) twice on.

Died right there. No more climbing. Or anything.

I see stuff like that and I say yes.

But, you can push your limits while trad climbing, safely. You need to build a level of experience and skill, then push yourself when the route can be climbed safely. For a climb to be safe, you need good gear, the ability to climb the "unsafe" territory" without falling, clean falls if your going to fall, or other factors. In the case of Smith Rock, that guy shouldn't have been pushing himself on that rock. I lead a few trad lines there, and the rock quality is complete crap for trad climbing (at least relative to what I'm used to).

Climbing is dangerous in general, is this a surprise to anyone? Safety is relative to your level of comfort and skill. For some people, free soloing 5.11 is safer than climbing a staircase for many Americans.


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 4:50 PM
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since you responded with such a well thought reply, i must only add that it is not "my definition" of "sport climbing." i'm not sure if i have totally grokked the meaning of a "sport climb," yet.

but i'd say i don't have any points of contention with your statements, except for the fact that the "majority" of bolts that i have climbed on are "good looking" 1/2 inch bolts.

i haven't come across too many manky bolts or anchors and thankfully

the vast consensus (read what i find in the wall) around austin is well maintained and i can definitely give a shout out to Tommy Blackwell as he is the primary figure in my mind behind the maintenance and scrutiny of new routes. Granted there is a committee, but i don't know who is on it now.... and the only way that i voted in the last election was by submitting a list with names crossed off (not all of them) on the ballot, indicating that i did not want certain people to receive a vote.


dingus


Aug 27, 2007, 5:56 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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8flood8 wrote:
Granted there is a committee, but i don't know who is on it now.... and the only way that i voted in the last election was by submitting a list with names crossed off (not all of them) on the ballot, indicating that i did not want certain people to receive a vote.

What a sad day for climbing (the fractures are multiplyingt!). I know the cure....

GROUP HUG!!!111

DMT


caughtinside


Aug 27, 2007, 7:16 PM
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dingus wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
Granted there is a committee, but i don't know who is on it now.... and the only way that i voted in the last election was by submitting a list with names crossed off (not all of them) on the ballot, indicating that i did not want certain people to receive a vote.

What a sad day for climbing (the fractures are multiplyingt!). I know the cure....

GROUP HUG!!!111

DMT

Good work flood. I know I cross dingus's name of any list I see. No vote for him!

HAHAHAHA!!!!


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 11:28 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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hahha, i wouldn't cross dingus off, but i did cross off some of the more "politically active businessmen" from the list.

everyone else was pretty much friends... of course my vote didn't count because i didn't vote for anyone, everyone else was a friend and climbing partner of mine.


USnavy


Jan 4, 2009, 11:57 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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8flood8 wrote:

now then i'm up here in hawaii right now... i got on the "warm up climb" here on the north shore at mokuleia it was an 5.8+...

i was looking down at the bolt about 4 feet below me around the arete and i could see my quick draw kind of banging on the edge... the next bolt was out of my reach and i just sat on my toes (they were burning) for about 6 minutes, trying to figure out how my escape route could not involve falling on that freaky little bolt below me...

later in the day i was thinking... maybe i just don't fall enough (but i think i was wrong ... there's no need to fall!)

That "little" bolt is a grade A304 stainless steel 1/2" Fixe hanger rated to 40 kN mounted on a 5-piece Rawl / Powers 1/2" stainless steel expansion bolt in solid rock. Short of one of the titanium alloy glue-in bolts we use, you couldn’t have been climbing on anything more solid.

Also if you were around the aręte, you were off route.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 10, 2010, 3:35 AM)


dingus


Jan 5, 2009, 5:01 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
Almost every time I climb, I take a lead fall because I try to lead at or above my limit so I can get better.

Why? What's the goal in getting better?

Consider a marathoner - does she have to run 26 miles every time out?

Does she afford herself a pleasant Sunday morning jog? A hike with the kids?

I'm still fascinated by the 'must get better' performance focus of a lot of climbers (most?).

Do you ever climb that 5.8 you're lecturing about? Not just to string a top rope for some friends - I mean do you slow down enough from your relentless improvement schedule to actually ENJOY the skills you have on a route that is perhaps easy for you... just for fun?

Or is your improvement the sort that requires dogged determination, few smiles and lots of suffering?

Cause it takes ALL KINDS, I've larnt.

DMT


king_rat


Jan 5, 2009, 7:24 AM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I don’t understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

Sometimes you do things just for enjoyment. I like to go out for a jog on a Sunday morning,. I don’t do it to get anywhere in particular but rather for enjoyment, if it was all about getting somewhere quickly I could drive the same distance in a fraction of the time.


dingus


Jan 5, 2009, 7:56 AM
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king_rat wrote:
CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I don’t understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

Sometimes you do things just for enjoyment. I like to go out for a jog on a Sunday morning,. I don’t do it to get anywhere in particular but rather for enjoyment, if it was all about getting somewhere quickly I could drive the same distance in a fraction of the time.

Ah the ALLURE!

Just what is it?

Can't speak for anyone but myself, mates.

But there is this....

I hike and explore a lot. Mcuh of it is its own gratification, but I'm also always scoping for new crags, cliffs, faces, walls, mountains, routes.

And I find em too. I'm one of the pathfinders in this sport (there are lots of others and most of them are far better at it than me).

So here's the deal... I'm out hiking around, brush thumping for opportunities. I fine one... a NEW CLIFF.

And NO ONE, not one person has ever climbed there. No bolts. No slings. No chalk marks. No beat out brush. No pruning cuts.

Unclimbed.

I have the skills to walk up to the base of that rock, be it a boulder, a crag, a major cliff face, a big wall - and at least attempt to climb it from the base, without preview, without pre-rigging pro, without anything other than what I carry in there myself (and my partner of course).

You may not care to acquire those skills. That's cool. But just know that 100% of your roped, bolt clipping climbing is accomplished on the backs of climbers like me.... those who can't.... could not even climb the simplest sport route becuase there wouldn't BE any sport routes.

It is the mother well, the fountainhead, from which all climbing stems. You start at the bottom and you climb to the top.

All the modern antiseptic sport climbing tricks are ways to avoid that nut, I know. I dig that. I like sport climbing.

But I like have the all-arounder skills too. I put a lot of personal value in that.

I can rebuild my car engine too. Doesn't mean I will any time soon, but I like KNOWING how to do that sort of thing, and having the technical skills to actually do it. I know I am not alone in this self-sufficiency desire.

maximizing self-sufficiency is one excellent lens from which to view the weirdness that is trad climbing.

Self-sufficiency....

DMT


taydude


Jan 5, 2009, 9:26 AM
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USnavy wrote:
Do you ever climb that 5.8 you're lecturing about? Not just to string a top rope for some friends - I mean do you slow down enough from your relentless improvement schedule to actually ENJOY the skills you have on a route that is perhaps easy for you... just for fun?

I did a 5.9 once, just for fun. It was the longest campus of my life hahaha. But seriously, I'll routinely get on easy stuff just for the heck of it.


(This post was edited by taydude on Jan 5, 2009, 9:26 AM)


USnavy


Jan 5, 2009, 7:45 PM
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dingus wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Almost every time I climb, I take a lead fall because I try to lead at or above my limit so I can get better.

Why? What's the goal in getting better?

Consider a marathoner - does she have to run 26 miles every time out?

Does she afford herself a pleasant Sunday morning jog? A hike with the kids?

I'm still fascinated by the 'must get better' performance focus of a lot of climbers (most?).

Do you ever climb that 5.8 you're lecturing about? Not just to string a top rope for some friends - I mean do you slow down enough from your relentless improvement schedule to actually ENJOY the skills you have on a route that is perhaps easy for you... just for fun?

Or is your improvement the sort that requires dogged determination, few smiles and lots of suffering?

Cause it takes ALL KINDS, I've larnt.

DMT

Ok let me rephrase, every time I lead a route that is at or above my limit, I fall. I don’t fall on 5.10's much anymore and most of the 11's I got down.

If I am not falling it means the climb is below my limit. If I never raise the bar I will never climb harder. Yes I could become stronger by climbing 5.10 but I could never become better. Every grade has a new set of techniques the climber needs to master. If I rarely climb above 5.11 I will never climb 5.12 for I will never learn the technique needed to climb 12’s.

When I start out climbing in the morning I jump right on my 5.12 project on lead. No warm up, no wasting time. Then as long as I have a partner that also enjoys the same grade, I climb at or above my limit for the rest of the day. I find this approach gets me through the grades and a good lead head faster than anything else.

Yes I have climbed that 5.8. I have redpointed it 50 times and soloed it once.


jt512


Jan 5, 2009, 9:48 PM
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USnavy wrote:
When I start out climbing in the morning I jump right on my 5.12 project on lead. No warm up...

Orthopedic surgery is in your future.

Jay


vegastradguy


Jan 5, 2009, 11:07 PM
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USnavy wrote:

Ok let me rephrase, every time I lead a route that is at or above my limit, I fall. I don’t fall on 5.10's much anymore and most of the 11's I got down.

If I am not falling it means the climb is below my limit. If I never raise the bar I will never climb harder. Yes I could become stronger by climbing 5.10 but I could never become better. Every grade has a new set of techniques the climber needs to master. If I rarely climb above 5.11 I will never climb 5.12 for I will never learn the technique needed to climb 12’s.

while it is true that to become a better climber, you eventually need to climb above your limit, i would also argue that climbing at or below your limit builds a broader base for you to build upon. skipping through the grades as fast as possible wont always result in being the best climber.

as you yourself noted- every grade has a new set of techniques that you have to master. if you're not falling on .10s "much", then i would argue that you have not mastered those techniques yet....people who climb 5.12 dont fall on 5.10.

this isnt to say that you shouldnt get on hard stuff and just get your butt kicked once in a while...


suilenroc


Jan 5, 2009, 11:12 PM
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Re: [dbrayack] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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5.10 trad tend to be... not that dangerous. WTF are you talking about? More importantly which route? I figure most of the time if a route is 5.10 you are looking a solid jams between sweet moves. Maybe its just me but this topic is kind of strange...

ps i only read the op


vegastradguy


Jan 6, 2009, 9:27 AM
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suilenroc wrote:
5.10 trad tend to be... not that dangerous. WTF are you talking about? More importantly which route? I figure most of the time if a route is 5.10 you are looking a solid jams between sweet moves. Maybe its just me but this topic is kind of strange...

ps i only read the op

you havent climbed that much .10 trad, then. i've been on plenty of 10s that have had fairly high consequences if you blew it.

that said....10 is generally safer than lower grades because the climbing is usually steeper and cleaner, but not always.


Partner rgold


Jan 6, 2009, 10:33 AM
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iamthewallress wrote:
If it was standard for fine looking placements to fail, then most/many people would fall roughly twice per C1 pitch of aid climbing where looking good is tends to be the preferred testing method before forging ahead. This simply doesn't happen with experienced climbers.


The 1 in 20 number refers to placements made in a wide range of different rock types and conditions, and then subjected to much higher than bodyweight loads. For this reason, the C1 observation is not relevant; in that case all the placements are going into essentially the same piece of rock and none are being whipped on or even bounce tested.

The bottom line is that trad gear can fail unexpectedly. You can argue all day about how likely it is that this or that type of piece or placement will fail, but I doubt there's an experienced climber out there who can't tell you stories about "good" pieces turning out not to be. Part of trad climbing is understanding this and dealing with it.

P.S. When it comes to "good-looking" small cams not being good, I suspect 1 in 20 is optimistic.


onceahardman


Jan 6, 2009, 11:21 AM
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In reply to:
I doubt there's an experienced climber out there who can't tell you stories about "good" pieces turning out not to be.

The converse can also be true. I've been surprised several times when junky pieces held.

That's why you back things up where you can, especially when you have a good stance.


onceahardman


Jan 6, 2009, 11:26 AM
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In reply to:
It is the mother well, the fountainhead, from which all climbing stems. You start at the bottom and you climb to the top.

Nicely put, dingus.

It just seems like "natural law", to me. I don't get why others don't get it.


brownie710


Jan 6, 2009, 12:07 PM
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8flood8 wrote:
the cool thing about hard trad is you can always aid it!

??????
How are you gonna aid a runout route?


ClimbitToday


Jan 6, 2009, 12:22 PM
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Hmmmm,

Interesting thread. Here's my 2 cents. Climbing is dangerous! Sport, Trad, Soloing, and Bouldering...it's all dangerous. So is life!

If you go climbing you got to pay attention and know your ability. Our job as climbers is to be able to mitigate the risk through preparation. It's important to gather information about the route; (how far b/t protection points, obsticales, face or crack, etc) and access these risk/factors before leaving the ground. If you can't accept the fall consequence or any of the factors then the route is probably not appropriate for you. My rule for scetchy run-out routes is gaining familarity with similar well protected lines first.

Climbers that refuse to fall are missing out and limiting themselves. Some falls are appropriate. Therefor I feel we should push ourselves - even on trad lines.

"Mountains are not fair or unfair - they are just dangerous." Reinhold Messner


AlexCV


Jan 6, 2009, 12:32 PM
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brownie710 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
the cool thing about hard trad is you can always aid it!

??????
How are you gonna aid a runout route?

There's a reason they still make hooks and #1 micro nuts.


goodman


Jan 6, 2009, 1:36 PM
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1st off - Dan this is a stupid thread..you can't be serious.?
2nd off - Bachar/Yerian is the epitome of trad climbing - why can't climbers get it right.....
3rd off - Just cause you went to Indian Creek last weekend don't make you a trad climber!
4th off - Bolt or no bolt any fall a climber takes could result in death.


dbrayack


Jan 6, 2009, 1:37 PM
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check out the date of the original post Pat =)


andygravity


Jan 6, 2009, 2:01 PM
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Re: [AlexCV] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
There's a reason they still make hooks and #1 micro nuts.

How often do you have these while free climbing?


suilenroc


Jan 6, 2009, 3:17 PM
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Re: [andygravity] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Trad Climbing isn't Dangerous... This is...
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/...09/0106091vail4.html


andygravity


Jan 6, 2009, 3:35 PM
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Re: [suilenroc] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Especially dangerous for the guy in the yellow helmet (pic #3).


suilenroc


Jan 6, 2009, 3:37 PM
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Re: [andygravity] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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andygravity wrote:
Especially dangerous for the guy in the yellow helmet (pic #3).[/quote
LaughLaughLaughexcellent pointLaughLaughLaugh


brownie710


Jan 6, 2009, 5:29 PM
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Re: [AlexCV] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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holy fuckstick!


spikeddem


Jan 7, 2009, 12:33 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
dingus wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Almost every time I climb, I take a lead fall because I try to lead at or above my limit so I can get better.

Why? What's the goal in getting better?

Consider a marathoner - does she have to run 26 miles every time out?

Does she afford herself a pleasant Sunday morning jog? A hike with the kids?

I'm still fascinated by the 'must get better' performance focus of a lot of climbers (most?).

Do you ever climb that 5.8 you're lecturing about? Not just to string a top rope for some friends - I mean do you slow down enough from your relentless improvement schedule to actually ENJOY the skills you have on a route that is perhaps easy for you... just for fun?

Or is your improvement the sort that requires dogged determination, few smiles and lots of suffering?

Cause it takes ALL KINDS, I've larnt.

DMT

Ok let me rephrase, every time I lead a route that is at or above my limit, I fall.

<keanu> Woah. Like, yeah . . . woah.</keanu>


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Jan 7, 2009, 6:08 AM)


Sin


Jan 7, 2009, 12:59 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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