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andypro


Aug 20, 2007, 5:34 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
You have had 2 fail and your not dead, so that kinda ups the percentage that can pull without killing ya.

That could possibly be true if I could tell you how many times I've fallen. If I have only fallen 40 times, then I'm already ahead of the game.Tongue


(This post was edited by andypro on Aug 20, 2007, 5:35 PM)


iamthewallress


Aug 20, 2007, 5:53 PM
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Re: [crotch] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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crotch wrote:
iamthewallress wrote:
crotch wrote:
There's a diff. between failing under bodyweight and failing under the force of a lead fall.

Of course.

I was responding, largely to this:

In reply to:
sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements, but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.

Weighting gear tends to imply hanging on it or using it for aid purposes.

My bad. I thought you were commenting on the plausibility of the 1 in 20 statement.

To some degree I am...I still think 1 in 20 visually 'good' placements in good rock will fail in a reasonable leader fall only if someone is clueless or is very liberal with what they call good.

I'd be interested to see what % of injuries due to lead falls were about gear failing though. I'd bet it's less than a third.


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Aug 20, 2007, 5:55 PM)


moose_droppings


Aug 20, 2007, 6:08 PM
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Re: [andypro] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Andy,
I agree, your ahead of the game.

All that air time,,, you must have a pilots license.
Wink Smile


justroberto


Aug 20, 2007, 6:11 PM
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Re: [dbrayack] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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dbrayack wrote:
Do any of you guys consistently take big falls on trad gear?

I don't. As for the head factor, catching my buddy on a 25-footer on Simple Harmonic Motion down at Beauty Mountain was a turning point. It helped me to trust that the right gear would hold a pretty decent fall. I still get sketched a little bit, but not nearly as much...


Partner angry


Aug 20, 2007, 6:14 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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I'm happier with myself when I fall on gear. The lead head waxes and wanes for me though. Last month I was taking falls and smacking a block just as the rope caught. Yesterday, I was taking like a bitch (on an easier route).

Head issues aside, you just have to know when to hold em and know when to fold em.

RE: The Bachar Yerian, sarcasm Besides, wouldn't we all love to hear an epic trip report of 5.11 sport climbers on that thing?


jt512


Aug 20, 2007, 6:49 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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8flood8 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
he said that 1 in 20 good placements fail.

0 in 20 good placements fail. That's why they're "good."

Jay

"During my tests, about one in twenty good-looking placements pulled out when loaded. The challenge is to figure out why the cam pulled, and what could have been done to prevent this from happening. "

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1650449;search_string=1%20in%2020;#1650449

sitting here i am almost betting that you are going to try and point out the difference between "good" and "good looking" placements...

Apparently I don't have to, since you seem to have figured it out yourself.

In reply to:
...but please tell me how you can discern the two without weighting it.

Determining visually when a placement is good isn't rocket science. To gain some confidence in your ability to judge good from bad, spend some time placing gear near the ground and jumping on the gear.

Jay


gramps


Aug 20, 2007, 7:36 PM
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You can push it safely in trad climbing, but you have to pick your battles and be technically competent a lot more than in sport. I was on a route the other day that was a granite splitter crack at my limit and I still had the full on scarefest experience near the top. When you've got a limited amount of gear to work with and are climbing a sustained, pumpy route, you've got to make decisions that you just don't have to make sport climbing. Like deciding whether or not to place from a very strenuous position even though it means you'll probably pump out and fall, or continue to climb, hoping for a better stance or jam to place from, but risk a big fall. That can cause some head games, even on a route where you could get pro anywhere.

As for the 1 in 20 thing, come on. I don't know that guy's methodology but properly placed gear in good rock fails a miniscule fraction of the time. Anybody who climbs hard trad knows that, or at least believes it, you have to to climb hard above your gear.


joeforte


Aug 20, 2007, 7:36 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
There's nothing quite like being two body lengths above your last piece with your knees a knockin, crying for you mommy and promising the lord if you make it out alive you will never leave the ground again. Then perservering to the top and realizing that was precisely the experience you were looking for. Sometimes its only in retrospect that we can accurately assess the true nature of the experience we just had.

This is THE REASON I climb trad. The feeling is more intense than anything I've ever felt.

If the gear is good, clean fall, and you have 2 pieces between you and the ground, GO FOR IT!!!!

When the gear is bad however, it's time to switch to SOLO MODE.

You won't know good gear from bad gear until you start taking some falls on it. Just remember to back it up! Lace up an overhanging G rated crack with 5-6 pieces and start whipping once you're well off the deck.


(This post was edited by joeforte on Aug 20, 2007, 7:39 PM)


petsfed


Aug 20, 2007, 7:51 PM
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Re: [angry] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
I'm happier with myself when I fall on gear. The lead head waxes and wanes for me though. Last month I was taking falls and smacking a block just as the rope caught. Yesterday, I was taking like a bitch (on an easier route).

Taking like a bitch on a hard fuckin' route just the same. I think the heckling never really reached the pitch necessary to send.


iamthewallress


Aug 20, 2007, 8:06 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Would you use a racial slur in place of bitch, and would it last on the page more than 10 seconds?


8flood8


Aug 20, 2007, 8:10 PM
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Re: [iamthewallress] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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you don't have to assume that "bitch" is a woman!


iamthewallress


Aug 20, 2007, 8:12 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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I don't have to assume nigger refers to black people either, but that's who will find it really fucking offensive...especially if it's used to mean something that's is bad.


(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Aug 20, 2007, 8:13 PM)


Partner angry


Aug 20, 2007, 8:16 PM
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Re: [iamthewallress] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Oh for fuck's sake. Get off your soap box. You know what I meant. I'm not changing my comment.

To get back on subject. I feel comfortable whipping on my gear, even though I was a jew about a lot of it and got it cheap or used.


8flood8


Aug 20, 2007, 8:17 PM
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Re: [iamthewallress] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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funny because i don't assume women or black people by use of either of those terms.

not to mention... its the internet!!! chill out a bit!


curt


Aug 20, 2007, 8:18 PM
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Re: [iamthewallress] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Wait....is this The Ladies' Room...?

Curt


curt


Aug 20, 2007, 8:22 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
flamer wrote:
You are wrong. There are plenty of Traditional routes protected by bolts....the Bachar/yerian being one of them.

huh? You might be confusing "ground up" with "traditional." Traditional means that the protection is gear, not bolts...

Kudos for forcefully and purposely impersonating someone who knows what they're talking about.

Curt


dingus


Aug 20, 2007, 8:30 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

Nope. You're wrong.

DMT


deschamps1000


Aug 20, 2007, 8:43 PM
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Re: [dingus] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
deschamps1000 wrote:
Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

Nope. You're wrong.

DMT

ha, ha. Definitely bring a #5 camalot to the next sport climbing area you go to. Definitely bring it with you, along with other cams, on every sport climb.


dingus


Aug 20, 2007, 8:49 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Go tell the Spartans:

http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=375380

DMT


knieveltech


Aug 20, 2007, 8:57 PM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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deschamps1000 wrote:
dingus wrote:
deschamps1000 wrote:
Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

Nope. You're wrong.

DMT

ha, ha. Definitely bring a #5 camalot to the next sport climbing area you go to. Definitely bring it with you, along with other cams, on every sport climb.

WTF is wrong with having a link cam or two hanging off your harness while climbing sport? You never know when a couple cams could come in handy, especially if you're of a mind to go off-route.


sed


Aug 20, 2007, 9:43 PM
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Re: [crotch] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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A bit of statistics. To calculate the risk I would multiply the probability of falling by the probability of the placement being faulty. If you fall one time for for every 10 routes you climb that is .10. If we assume .05 of gear placements are faulty (which is very much doubt) then the odds of falling on faulty gear are .005, which means that for every 200 routes you climb you can expect to fall on faulty gear 1 time. Most of us don't fall that often and 5% of gear being faulty seems high. Also, saying you are falling on faulty gear does not say anything about the outcome of that fall. In addition, people tend to protect crux areas differently and therefore the typical placement stats probably do not apply to many of the placements we would use in the times we are most likely to fall. Or that's how I see it anyway.
S


asclepius


Aug 20, 2007, 10:56 PM
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Re: [flamer] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Bachar-yerian is a sport route since it is protected by bolts... yep all 4 of them.

Aid climbing will make you a better gear climber, ice climbing will make you a better runout climber.

It's all climbing, only the protection type changes, why is that such a big deal to so many people?

I guess if you don't know the protection medium in any case it is dangerous.


(This post was edited by asclepius on Aug 20, 2007, 11:01 PM)


crotch


Aug 20, 2007, 11:46 PM
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swede


Aug 21, 2007, 1:00 AM
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Re: [crotch] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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As you have noted there is a difference (between trad and sport).

The chain of protection makes it more difficult to make a good judgement of the risks. Experience is the key to knowing which placements are good and how the chain of pro works in each case. Therefore you are seldom ”safe” as you are used to in sport – instead it is a gradient from nonprotected to very well protected. Therefore a tradfall is never to be taken consciously without thinking twice about it (if you are as experienced as some on RC.com you probably do that calculation without even thinking about it).

You have to read the route before you commit. As you have noted some trad routes are in reality solo routes. It´s up to you to decide how much risk you are willing to take. In my world it´s much more courageous to climb down than to continue a route that you don´t think is adequately protected. The rock does not care if I make it or not, but my wife does.

Many beginner leaders think falls are necessary (for the head game). They are not – experience will get you there also (but do take longer time). Falls are a way to find a shortcut, but the gains with such a strategy are directly related to the risk involved. And – if you win over your head but lacks enough experience with the trad game – you will just end up in hospital or worse (because you are basically solo climbing with a rope dangling behind you).


ADZZL


Aug 21, 2007, 2:40 AM
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Re: [asclepius] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Just wondering if any of the people claiming the B/Y is a sport route have ever been on it.

Also wondering if they would call it a sport route in front of Bachar in person.

My guess: the answer is no in both cases.

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