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Pushing it for Trad...dangerous?
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Partner baja_java


Aug 21, 2007, 4:34 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

CinnamonJohnson wrote:
"I've almost vomited after a hard trad pitch. I've never had that experience sport climbing."

I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after- If everything about the route was the same, except it was bolted then it would have been a lot easier(agreed?) So, you were not climbing at your physical limit.

If you are doing something to slow you down and require you to fiddle with something(such as drinking a gatorade, solving a crossword puzzle, or placing little camalot thingys in the rock), you are not climbing at your physical limit.

so why don't you free-solo, at your limit? then you wouldn't have to pretend you're climbing at your physical limit when you're obviously wasting energy fiddling with draws and toting a rope and harness

can someone please explain the allure of living a lie??


rocknice2


Aug 21, 2007, 4:54 PM
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Re: [baja_java] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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This reminds me of the time a friend of mine found out I was cimbing at a crag near his cottage. With a puzzled look he said " Your crazy to climb that cliff when there is an easy trail to the top, over there."


Why trad you ask.
It's more rewarding ...... to me.


knieveltech


Aug 21, 2007, 4:55 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
And anyway, if all climbing was really just about pure physical difficulty, we'd all be low-ball boulderers. You don't have to be climbing at your limit to enjoy yourself.

Word!


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 21, 2007, 5:56 PM
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Re: [baja_java] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Your post doesnt make sense. Everyone can sport climb a lot harder than they can free-solo. You should have said, Why dont you just top-rope instead of lead sport. That would have been a much better argument..


skinner


Aug 21, 2007, 6:08 PM
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Re: [swede] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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swede wrote:
because you are basically solo climbing with a rope dangling behind you

That's how I described it when my belayer fell asleep.


Partner baja_java


Aug 21, 2007, 6:26 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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you're telling me you can't push your physical limits even more without having to clip and tote the extra weight? there are other reasons people lead harder than what they free-solo. that whole death and dying thing being one, which is mental, not physical

you're the one making like the physical limit is the end all and be all. pretty limiting, ought to know by now


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 21, 2007, 6:32 PM
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Re: [baja_java] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Look, you cant climb at your physical limit when you are free-soloing because you have the death thing in your way. This is consistent with my argument. Trad climbing is climbing with "stuff" in your way(placing gear). Free-soloing is climbing with "stuff" in your way(death, not being able to fully push yourself, go for moves dynamically...)


yekcir


Aug 21, 2007, 7:12 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

I reach my physical limit all of the time trad climbing. Sometimes it's a couple of tough moves over a string of good pro. Other times it's getting out into the danger zone facing big fall potential into not so clean air.

Try pulling the crux moves high over your gear after the fear has crept in. Then try keeping it together to find some good pro, cause that's the only thing that can save you now. Maybe you get it, shaking like a bitch because all you can hear is the clock ticking, louder and louder. Your arms burning, your calves going like a sewing machine on meth, and your brain tumbling down into the void that's tugging at your heels, where you may very well end up, never climbing again. It's fight or flight, and if you don't keep your shit together, the flight will be a long one. There is no escape but up.

Welcome to climbing at your physical limit.


Partner baja_java


Aug 21, 2007, 7:35 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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so this ideal of max physical prowess of yours isn't truly what it could be to begin with, because of this whole death and dying thing, that you wouldn't mind compromising with the hassle and weight of some gear. sounds like a pretty contrived exercise, whatever it is that you do

we're all limited from what we can ideally climb in so many ways. looking down on another style of climbing because of that is pretty pointless. we all have different ideas of hard, and different ideas of fun


Partner angry


Aug 21, 2007, 8:33 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
Your post doesnt make sense. Everyone can sport climb a lot harder than they can free-solo. You should have said, Why dont you just top-rope instead of lead sport. That would have been a much better argument..

Why don't you make that arguement then? We all surely top rope harder than we sport lead.

Oh, I've onsighted 12b/c trad on my best days. I've onsighted 12a sport routes on my best days. Eat my ass.


dalguard


Aug 21, 2007, 8:37 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after
It's a different kind of puking. You might not like it but you won't know until you try it.


skinner


Aug 21, 2007, 9:26 PM
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Re: [dingus] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Self sufficiency. Climbing mountains. Doing wild climbs in remote areas.

A sport climber is forever beholden to the Route Developer. Sport climbing cannot be done without modification to the rock. Its an urban pursuit.

Nothing wrong with that per se, mind you. But sport climbing is a one trick pony.
DMT

Well said.


deschamps1000


Aug 21, 2007, 9:31 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
Look, you cant climb at your physical limit when you are free-soloing because you have the death thing in your way. This is consistent with my argument. Trad climbing is climbing with "stuff" in your way(placing gear). Free-soloing is climbing with "stuff" in your way(death, not being able to fully push yourself, go for moves dynamically...)

If you want to play that game: Sport climbing is climbing with "stuff" in your way. Why not just boulder or toprope where you can focus on the hardest moves? The answer is, because there is much more to climbing than simply pulling the hardest moves.


jt512


Aug 21, 2007, 10:44 PM
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Re: [dalguard] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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dalguard wrote:
In reply to:
I'm not saying that you have never gotten physically tired from a trad climb. I'm saying that you(and everyone else) could climb harder if you werent finding and placing gear. Take the same climb that you almost puked after
It's a different kind of puking. You might not like it but you won't know until you try it.

Hey, Dawn, I can only speak for myself, but I think I've experienced enough types of puking (hungover, norovirus, four-by-four, offwidth) to be able to generalize my experience to all types of puking, including any types of puking I may not yet have experienced.

Planning any trips out West these days?

Jay


vegastradguy


Aug 21, 2007, 11:51 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
Look, you cant climb at your physical limit when you are free-soloing because you have the death thing in your way.

just because the 'death thing' is in your way doesn't mean its in other peoples way.


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 22, 2007, 6:29 AM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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No, I think the death thing holds everyone back while free-soloing. Alex Huber soloed a .14a, which is very hard. But, he F'd a few .14ds in the A. Pretty big difference.

And why are all you trad goobers so obsessed with puking? I'd say you all sound like youre bulimic, except arent trad climbers usually kinda overweight...?


dalguard


Aug 22, 2007, 7:27 AM
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Re: [jt512] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Hey, Jay. I know I don't have to explain trad climbing to you, you sport-climbing pretender.

No CA on the horizon, I'm afraid. Need to find some new road tripping partners.


billl7


Aug 22, 2007, 7:41 AM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
And why are all you trad goobers so obsessed with puking? I'd say you all sound like youre bulimic, except arent trad climbers usually kinda overweight...?
Evidence that the craving to feel better about oneself isn't limited to trad-style climbers.


ericbeyeler


Aug 22, 2007, 9:12 AM
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Re: [yekcir] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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yekcir wrote:
In reply to:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

I reach my physical limit all of the time trad climbing. Sometimes it's a couple of tough moves over a string of good pro. Other times it's getting out into the danger zone facing big fall potential into not so clean air.

Try pulling the crux moves high over your gear after the fear has crept in. Then try keeping it together to find some good pro, cause that's the only thing that can save you now. Maybe you get it, shaking like a bitch because all you can hear is the clock ticking, louder and louder. Your arms burning, your calves going like a sewing machine on meth, and your brain tumbling down into the void that's tugging at your heels, where you may very well end up, never climbing again. It's fight or flight, and if you don't keep your shit together, the flight will be a long one. There is no escape but up.

Welcome to climbing at your physical limit.

Awesome post.
Trad climbing is about so much more than your "physical limit".

Dark clouds getting nearer, thunder booming through the canyon, need to get to the next belay so we can bail before getting barbecued, last micronut 20 feet below and 40 feet to the left, holds getting thinner, there's a big crack just ahead, one more move, ah, stuff a cam in there, bring up the second, let's get outta here!
<recent trip to Eldorado Canyon>


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 22, 2007, 9:54 AM
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Re: [ericbeyeler] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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I'm just playing. I'm actually thinking about knocking down a couple of trad pitches this weekend.

I just like seeing the traddies get worked up and say crap like "sewing machine leg", and "danger zone".


rockies


Aug 26, 2007, 3:09 PM
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Re: [CinnamonJohnson] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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On the contrary, I find sport climbing more challenging than trad climbing; because you aren't placing your gear on sport climbs and have to climb only where the bolts are.

I like placing gear where I want it.


billcoe_


Aug 26, 2007, 6:40 PM
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Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Canadian fella jumped on a 5.10 crack at Smith a few years back. Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out, including the one he had fallen (successfully) twice on.

Died right there. No more climbing. Or anything.

I see stuff like that and I say yes.


deschamps1000


Aug 26, 2007, 7:42 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
Canadian fella jumped on a 5.10 crack at Smith a few years back. Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out, including the one he had fallen (successfully) twice on.

Died right there. No more climbing. Or anything.

I see stuff like that and I say yes.

Wow, that's intense. How dead was he when they got to him?


(This post was edited by deschamps1000 on Aug 26, 2007, 7:43 PM)


flint


Aug 26, 2007, 8:41 PM
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Re: [djride] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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djride wrote:
For me, that is the essence of climbing - and when you are climbing trad it doesn't matter if its 5.9 or 5.11, its still one hell of an accomplishment when you walk off at the top.

Exactly

I can develop a line where I place blots that I feel comfortable clipping, I am 6'4" and the next 5'6" climber may think the route is extremely hard due to the clips. Trad climbing alows you the control of your gear, and ulitmatly the route.

Plus, it is nice to go put up a line somewhere that you know no one has even climbed, but more importantly, not leaving a trace so that the same experience can happen and be shared by someone else in 20 years.


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 4:58 AM
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In reply to:
Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out
In reply to:
this really makes me consider the thought that i had about the acceptance of my inevitable death and the cherishing of that certainty. (Ala Stranger in a strange land)

because i am pushing my trad envelope at the moment, as evidenced by the bd#6 i just purchased, this makes me wonder if i am competent to lead the 5.10 layback crack, that my buddy and i found on our last trip out... especially now that i read that it goes to bigger than the #6...

am i dumb for running this route out with a #6 in my hand instead of a valley giant?

( image will be resized and posted later today, sorry i'm about to go to school )

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