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8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 5:03 AM
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as promised



innominate 5.10


degaine


Aug 27, 2007, 5:49 AM
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Re: [deschamps1000] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I dont understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

You've never climbed at Snowshed wall at Donner Summit, have you?

deschamps1000 wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
i believe that the bachar/yerian route is still "trad" because of the style in which it went up (at least according to the zealots around here)

Nope, style has nothing to do with it. Bolts = sport climbing, gear = trad climbing. Bachar / yerian is a sport climb.

I would thus encourage all of you 5.11 sport climbers to go out and give it a shot.

I honestly thought that deschamps1000 was being sarcastic with this comment.


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 27, 2007, 7:11 AM
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Re: [degaine] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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No, I havent. Whats going down on the Snowshed Wall?

Is that your stomping ground or something? Do tell us about your sick sends over there...


dingus


Aug 27, 2007, 7:14 AM
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Its perhaps the strangest cliff in all the Californias. It is a pitch tall but is both bottomless and topless!



Go figger!

DMT


degaine


Aug 27, 2007, 7:29 AM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
No, I havent. Whats going down on the Snowshed Wall?

Is that your stomping ground or something? Do tell us about your sick sends over there...

I never mentioned anything about "sick sends" in my post.

Anyway, Donner Summit has a bunch of different climbing areas / cliffs, and Snowshed Wall is one area. To the base of the wall it's about a 3 minute walk from the pullout.

My friend Michael called it "sport-trad". There's a series of splitter cracks one after the other - you barely have to move your rope and bag when changing climbs (especially in the area where Dingus's photo is taken). Just plug and go. You sew up just about every climb and can place a piece and clip there as fast as pulling a draw off your harness and clipping a bolt. Many people, including myself, have pushed their limits at this site.

Now, my "limit" is extremely modest compared to most, but regardless of what that limit is, I've pushed it in that very spot. At one point my hardest redpoint was one of the gear climbs at Snowshed.

Personally (read my own personal experience and opinion) I'd trust a cam I've placed in the bullet proof granite of Snowshed wall much more than many bolts I've come across. And that includes the third bolt (spinner) on Aerial, a sport climb 20 yards up from the climb in Dingus's photo.


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 10:27 AM
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Re: [degaine] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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so how does the quoted "%5" of "good looking gear pullouts (read failure)" bide with you?


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 10:30 AM
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I love it when an offwidth has gear that doesn't require the use of huge cams... not the case in the aforementioned innominate...

as i promised, i will get a working pic of the route up on the site, the one i submitted this morning was mis-sized and the one i linked, doesn't allow direct linkage to this site, so i guess you gotta join erock online if you want to see my pic, until i get the correct one up... jeeze where is my internet/brain connection, so i could just upload it instantaneously from my seat here in class.


degaine


Aug 27, 2007, 12:53 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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8flood8 wrote:
so how does the quoted "%5" of "good looking gear pullouts (read failure)" bide with you?

(I won't just read "failure", I'll guess that you meant failure of the placement and not of the cam/nut).

Based on your prior definition of a "sport" climb - i.e. any climb that is protected solely by bolts - I have far more confidence in my gear placements than, say, many quarter inch spinners I've come across in Tuolumne Meadows (quick side note thanks to ASCA for their work in replacing many of those old bolts!).

Personally (that is in my own personal experience and how I climb when on lead) I place a two pieces of protection in a situation where I am unsure of a placement, or for just peace of mind before a cruxy section I'll place two pieces (sometimes equalized with a sling). As far as Snowshed wall at Donner is concerned, one can place gear at will, and I have lead climbs much more well protected than many sport climbs I've lead (read I had the opportunity to place as much as I thought necessary, where I thought necessary).

Talk to anyone who has climbed at Indian Creek which has splitter cracks where one can place a number 1 and 2 Camalots at will. Afterwards ask them how much they trust bolts at Indian Creek (if memory serves, drilled angles are the fixed gear of choice).

Do you really trust any and every bolt you come across?

In any case, just confirming that from where I humbly sit, that crags do exist where one can push one's climbing level gear climbing as safely as any sport climb.

Quick P.S. to add that I do consider "safe" to be a relative term when discussing climbing.


(This post was edited by degaine on Aug 27, 2007, 12:54 PM)


degaine


Aug 27, 2007, 12:56 PM
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Re: [dingus] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Its perhaps the strangest cliff in all the Californias. It is a pitch tall but is both bottomless and topless!

[img]http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7747/donner15dt.jpg[/img]

Go figger!

DMT

I'd tell that guy to get his monkey paws out of his chalk bag and to start climbing!


CinnamonJohnson


Aug 27, 2007, 1:42 PM
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Re: [degaine] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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Oh yeah, Donner Summit. Thats where that "Steep Climb Named Desire" route is. I got ya. That thing looks awesome. I saw that video in Painted Spider. Looks pretty sick. Good call.


bandycoot


Aug 27, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
Canadian fella jumped on a 5.10 crack at Smith a few years back. Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out, including the one he had fallen (successfully) twice on.

Died right there. No more climbing. Or anything.

I see stuff like that and I say yes.

But, you can push your limits while trad climbing, safely. You need to build a level of experience and skill, then push yourself when the route can be climbed safely. For a climb to be safe, you need good gear, the ability to climb the "unsafe" territory" without falling, clean falls if your going to fall, or other factors. In the case of Smith Rock, that guy shouldn't have been pushing himself on that rock. I lead a few trad lines there, and the rock quality is complete crap for trad climbing (at least relative to what I'm used to).


collegekid


Aug 27, 2007, 2:55 PM
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Re: [bandycoot] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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bandycoot wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
Canadian fella jumped on a 5.10 crack at Smith a few years back. Started hanging and dawging right away. Fell on his 3rd piece, and twice on his 5th piece or so, climbed up and put in a few more, fell and ripped them all out, including the one he had fallen (successfully) twice on.

Died right there. No more climbing. Or anything.

I see stuff like that and I say yes.

But, you can push your limits while trad climbing, safely. You need to build a level of experience and skill, then push yourself when the route can be climbed safely. For a climb to be safe, you need good gear, the ability to climb the "unsafe" territory" without falling, clean falls if your going to fall, or other factors. In the case of Smith Rock, that guy shouldn't have been pushing himself on that rock. I lead a few trad lines there, and the rock quality is complete crap for trad climbing (at least relative to what I'm used to).

Climbing is dangerous in general, is this a surprise to anyone? Safety is relative to your level of comfort and skill. For some people, free soloing 5.11 is safer than climbing a staircase for many Americans.


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 4:50 PM
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since you responded with such a well thought reply, i must only add that it is not "my definition" of "sport climbing." i'm not sure if i have totally grokked the meaning of a "sport climb," yet.

but i'd say i don't have any points of contention with your statements, except for the fact that the "majority" of bolts that i have climbed on are "good looking" 1/2 inch bolts.

i haven't come across too many manky bolts or anchors and thankfully

the vast consensus (read what i find in the wall) around austin is well maintained and i can definitely give a shout out to Tommy Blackwell as he is the primary figure in my mind behind the maintenance and scrutiny of new routes. Granted there is a committee, but i don't know who is on it now.... and the only way that i voted in the last election was by submitting a list with names crossed off (not all of them) on the ballot, indicating that i did not want certain people to receive a vote.


dingus


Aug 27, 2007, 5:56 PM
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8flood8 wrote:
Granted there is a committee, but i don't know who is on it now.... and the only way that i voted in the last election was by submitting a list with names crossed off (not all of them) on the ballot, indicating that i did not want certain people to receive a vote.

What a sad day for climbing (the fractures are multiplyingt!). I know the cure....

GROUP HUG!!!111

DMT


caughtinside


Aug 27, 2007, 7:16 PM
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dingus wrote:
8flood8 wrote:
Granted there is a committee, but i don't know who is on it now.... and the only way that i voted in the last election was by submitting a list with names crossed off (not all of them) on the ballot, indicating that i did not want certain people to receive a vote.

What a sad day for climbing (the fractures are multiplyingt!). I know the cure....

GROUP HUG!!!111

DMT

Good work flood. I know I cross dingus's name of any list I see. No vote for him!

HAHAHAHA!!!!


8flood8


Aug 27, 2007, 11:28 PM
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hahha, i wouldn't cross dingus off, but i did cross off some of the more "politically active businessmen" from the list.

everyone else was pretty much friends... of course my vote didn't count because i didn't vote for anyone, everyone else was a friend and climbing partner of mine.


USnavy


Jan 4, 2009, 11:57 PM
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Re: [8flood8] Pushing it for Trad...dangerous? [In reply to]
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8flood8 wrote:

now then i'm up here in hawaii right now... i got on the "warm up climb" here on the north shore at mokuleia it was an 5.8+...

i was looking down at the bolt about 4 feet below me around the arete and i could see my quick draw kind of banging on the edge... the next bolt was out of my reach and i just sat on my toes (they were burning) for about 6 minutes, trying to figure out how my escape route could not involve falling on that freaky little bolt below me...

later in the day i was thinking... maybe i just don't fall enough (but i think i was wrong ... there's no need to fall!)

That "little" bolt is a grade A304 stainless steel 1/2" Fixe hanger rated to 40 kN mounted on a 5-piece Rawl / Powers 1/2" stainless steel expansion bolt in solid rock. Short of one of the titanium alloy glue-in bolts we use, you couldnít have been climbing on anything more solid.

Also if you were around the arÍte, you were off route.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 10, 2010, 3:35 AM)


dingus


Jan 5, 2009, 5:01 AM
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USnavy wrote:
Almost every time I climb, I take a lead fall because I try to lead at or above my limit so I can get better.

Why? What's the goal in getting better?

Consider a marathoner - does she have to run 26 miles every time out?

Does she afford herself a pleasant Sunday morning jog? A hike with the kids?

I'm still fascinated by the 'must get better' performance focus of a lot of climbers (most?).

Do you ever climb that 5.8 you're lecturing about? Not just to string a top rope for some friends - I mean do you slow down enough from your relentless improvement schedule to actually ENJOY the skills you have on a route that is perhaps easy for you... just for fun?

Or is your improvement the sort that requires dogged determination, few smiles and lots of suffering?

Cause it takes ALL KINDS, I've larnt.

DMT


king_rat


Jan 5, 2009, 7:24 AM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I donít understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

Sometimes you do things just for enjoyment. I like to go out for a jog on a Sunday morning,. I donít do it to get anywhere in particular but rather for enjoyment, if it was all about getting somewhere quickly I could drive the same distance in a fraction of the time.


dingus


Jan 5, 2009, 7:56 AM
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king_rat wrote:
CinnamonJohnson wrote:
I donít understand the fascination with trad cragging. I really dont.

It keeps you very far from climbing at your physical limit. Whether its the fear of hurting yourself like Dan's talking about, or just the fiddling with gear while youre on the route... I cannot understand why people become so psyched on it and it becomes such a part of their identity.

Climbing long trad multi-pitch routes is a different story I suppose...

Can someone please explain the allure to me?

Sometimes you do things just for enjoyment. I like to go out for a jog on a Sunday morning,. I donít do it to get anywhere in particular but rather for enjoyment, if it was all about getting somewhere quickly I could drive the same distance in a fraction of the time.

Ah the ALLURE!

Just what is it?

Can't speak for anyone but myself, mates.

But there is this....

I hike and explore a lot. Mcuh of it is its own gratification, but I'm also always scoping for new crags, cliffs, faces, walls, mountains, routes.

And I find em too. I'm one of the pathfinders in this sport (there are lots of others and most of them are far better at it than me).

So here's the deal... I'm out hiking around, brush thumping for opportunities. I fine one... a NEW CLIFF.

And NO ONE, not one person has ever climbed there. No bolts. No slings. No chalk marks. No beat out brush. No pruning cuts.

Unclimbed.

I have the skills to walk up to the base of that rock, be it a boulder, a crag, a major cliff face, a big wall - and at least attempt to climb it from the base, without preview, without pre-rigging pro, without anything other than what I carry in there myself (and my partner of course).

You may not care to acquire those skills. That's cool. But just know that 100% of your roped, bolt clipping climbing is accomplished on the backs of climbers like me.... those who can't.... could not even climb the simplest sport route becuase there wouldn't BE any sport routes.

It is the mother well, the fountainhead, from which all climbing stems. You start at the bottom and you climb to the top.

All the modern antiseptic sport climbing tricks are ways to avoid that nut, I know. I dig that. I like sport climbing.

But I like have the all-arounder skills too. I put a lot of personal value in that.

I can rebuild my car engine too. Doesn't mean I will any time soon, but I like KNOWING how to do that sort of thing, and having the technical skills to actually do it. I know I am not alone in this self-sufficiency desire.

maximizing self-sufficiency is one excellent lens from which to view the weirdness that is trad climbing.

Self-sufficiency....

DMT


taydude


Jan 5, 2009, 9:26 AM
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USnavy wrote:
Do you ever climb that 5.8 you're lecturing about? Not just to string a top rope for some friends - I mean do you slow down enough from your relentless improvement schedule to actually ENJOY the skills you have on a route that is perhaps easy for you... just for fun?

I did a 5.9 once, just for fun. It was the longest campus of my life hahaha. But seriously, I'll routinely get on easy stuff just for the heck of it.


(This post was edited by taydude on Jan 5, 2009, 9:26 AM)


USnavy


Jan 5, 2009, 7:45 PM
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dingus wrote:
USnavy wrote:
Almost every time I climb, I take a lead fall because I try to lead at or above my limit so I can get better.

Why? What's the goal in getting better?

Consider a marathoner - does she have to run 26 miles every time out?

Does she afford herself a pleasant Sunday morning jog? A hike with the kids?

I'm still fascinated by the 'must get better' performance focus of a lot of climbers (most?).

Do you ever climb that 5.8 you're lecturing about? Not just to string a top rope for some friends - I mean do you slow down enough from your relentless improvement schedule to actually ENJOY the skills you have on a route that is perhaps easy for you... just for fun?

Or is your improvement the sort that requires dogged determination, few smiles and lots of suffering?

Cause it takes ALL KINDS, I've larnt.

DMT

Ok let me rephrase, every time I lead a route that is at or above my limit, I fall. I donít fall on 5.10's much anymore and most of the 11's I got down.

If I am not falling it means the climb is below my limit. If I never raise the bar I will never climb harder. Yes I could become stronger by climbing 5.10 but I could never become better. Every grade has a new set of techniques the climber needs to master. If I rarely climb above 5.11 I will never climb 5.12 for I will never learn the technique needed to climb 12ís.

When I start out climbing in the morning I jump right on my 5.12 project on lead. No warm up, no wasting time. Then as long as I have a partner that also enjoys the same grade, I climb at or above my limit for the rest of the day. I find this approach gets me through the grades and a good lead head faster than anything else.

Yes I have climbed that 5.8. I have redpointed it 50 times and soloed it once.


jt512


Jan 5, 2009, 9:48 PM
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USnavy wrote:
When I start out climbing in the morning I jump right on my 5.12 project on lead. No warm up...

Orthopedic surgery is in your future.

Jay


vegastradguy


Jan 5, 2009, 11:07 PM
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USnavy wrote:

Ok let me rephrase, every time I lead a route that is at or above my limit, I fall. I donít fall on 5.10's much anymore and most of the 11's I got down.

If I am not falling it means the climb is below my limit. If I never raise the bar I will never climb harder. Yes I could become stronger by climbing 5.10 but I could never become better. Every grade has a new set of techniques the climber needs to master. If I rarely climb above 5.11 I will never climb 5.12 for I will never learn the technique needed to climb 12ís.

while it is true that to become a better climber, you eventually need to climb above your limit, i would also argue that climbing at or below your limit builds a broader base for you to build upon. skipping through the grades as fast as possible wont always result in being the best climber.

as you yourself noted- every grade has a new set of techniques that you have to master. if you're not falling on .10s "much", then i would argue that you have not mastered those techniques yet....people who climb 5.12 dont fall on 5.10.

this isnt to say that you shouldnt get on hard stuff and just get your butt kicked once in a while...


suilenroc


Jan 5, 2009, 11:12 PM
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5.10 trad tend to be... not that dangerous. WTF are you talking about? More importantly which route? I figure most of the time if a route is 5.10 you are looking a solid jams between sweet moves. Maybe its just me but this topic is kind of strange...

ps i only read the op

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