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hosh
Sep 17, 2007, 6:04 AM
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Has anyone been brave enough to get any of the new Aliens? Doesn't http://www.Tradrack.com still carry them? I was just wondering if anyone has had enough guts (or lack of sense?) to pick up and fall on the new ones? I still love Aliens, but I can't really bring myself to buy them...
hosh.
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fenderfour
Sep 17, 2007, 3:43 PM
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yes. I have some offsets with the new nylon sleeve. I use them for aid climbing. No whippers, but they have held bounce testing just fine.
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CaptainPolution
Sep 17, 2007, 9:06 PM
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I actually ordered some from mtntools but it was going to take like a month or something to get them so I canceled the order. Good luck!
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gblauer
Moderator
Sep 17, 2007, 9:43 PM
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I had my old aliens tested and they are back on the rack.
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gimmeslack
Sep 17, 2007, 11:07 PM
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I just bought four brand new shiny Alien Death Cams.
Couple of weeks ago I borrowed a friend's and it was love at first sight.
Maybe I won't fall. Really.
Gumby death awaits me I suppose...
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hosh
Sep 18, 2007, 12:23 AM
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Yeah, but has anyone taken a fall on the new Aliens? Or tested them substantially? I really like Aliens, and would like to be able to trust them again, since they're such great cams (QC issues aside).
hosh.
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krosbakken
Sep 18, 2007, 1:34 AM
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gblauer wrote: I had my old aliens tested and they are back on the rack.
Where did you have that done? Or did you do it yourself?
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gblauer
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Sep 18, 2007, 2:32 AM
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I sent the aliens to CCH and they stress tested them for free.
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joeforte
Sep 18, 2007, 2:38 AM
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Oh boy
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spoon
Sep 18, 2007, 3:18 AM
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someone correct me if i'm wrong. wasn't one of the more recent failures a cam that had been stamped tested by cch?
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vegastradguy
Sep 18, 2007, 4:06 AM
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gblauer wrote: I sent the aliens to CCH and they stress tested them for free.
i wouldnt rely on that test- or anything that cch is doing, really. better to find someone else to test them- maybe Fish?
or bounce test them nicely somewhere close to the ground (i did this for the one new hybrid alien i own)....
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Points
Sep 18, 2007, 4:12 AM
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If you don't mind my inquiring, who/what is Fish?
Nevermind, I had forgotten the, don't be stupid and do a forum search first rule.
(This post was edited by Points on Sep 18, 2007, 4:19 AM)
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vegastradguy
Sep 18, 2007, 6:17 AM
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Points wrote: If you don't mind my inquiring, who/what is Fish? Nevermind, I had forgotten the, don't be stupid and do a forum search first rule.
http://www.fishproducts.com/
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hosh
Sep 18, 2007, 8:17 AM
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The only Aliens that I own that were affected by the recall were tested. I happen to have a friend who owns some fancy pants equipment and he agreed to test them for me. They're back on the rack as well, but I find myself a little slow to use them even still... Again, has anyone fallen on the new ones...?
hosh.
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cellardoor
Sep 18, 2007, 2:37 PM
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I haven't fallen on the new ones yet, but just as a suggestion, i tested all my old ones by placing them above a bomber nut or in a couple cases, a random sport bolt and wipped on them. All of them held various medium sized wippers so i concluded that they were not defective. I probably won't need any new cams until next season (or if a sale hits, then of course i'll need more ). So if anyone has any, try that and report back.
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notch
Sep 19, 2007, 8:18 PM
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gblauer wrote: I sent the aliens to CCH and they stress tested them for free.
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NSFW
Sep 19, 2007, 10:57 PM
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notch wrote: gblauer wrote: I sent the aliens to CCH and they stress tested them for free. I've seen a number of people post this and I just can't get my head around it. If you can't trust a company to quality control a product the first time, how can you trust the same company to do a stress test? I want to hear from the person who's sent their cams back to CCH and been told they've failed. From what I've heard, every cam CCH has tested has passed. Possible? Sure. Likely? I'm not nearly as certain...
They had a QC issue, and maybe they didn't handle it as good as they could have at first indication. It happens a lot in manufacturing. But for every instance of a company not reacting sufficiently for any given issue there are 1000 of someone over-reacting to something innocuous. They're trying to avoid both, and it's not as easy as it may seem. Unfortunately only in hindsight can you be sure of the correct path. It can be difficult on the other side of the fence... it's probably easier to sit on this side and make assumptions and accusations.
Did they fuck up? Sure. But does that mean that I don't trust that they pull tested something that they said they did? No. Pull testing isn't rocket science and I don't believe that they are so morally evil that they would just say they did for the hell of it.
Now, would I climb on them even after they've been pull tested? That's a different question for a different thread.
(This post was edited by NSFW on Sep 19, 2007, 10:58 PM)
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renneberg
Sep 20, 2007, 1:09 AM
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I have tested many "New Aliens" Stamped tested etc. Photos of the test have been posted here and on Supertopo. FISH agrees with and supports the test.
I have had 2 fail early, 1100# and 1200#.
Not cool. Dave now posts that the he does not approve of the test.... I bet he does not!
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notch
Sep 27, 2007, 4:15 PM
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NSFW wrote: notch wrote: gblauer wrote: I sent the aliens to CCH and they stress tested them for free. I've seen a number of people post this and I just can't get my head around it. If you can't trust a company to quality control a product the first time, how can you trust the same company to do a stress test? I want to hear from the person who's sent their cams back to CCH and been told they've failed. From what I've heard, every cam CCH has tested has passed. Possible? Sure. Likely? I'm not nearly as certain... They had a QC issue, and maybe they didn't handle it as good as they could have at first indication. It happens a lot in manufacturing. But for every instance of a company not reacting sufficiently for any given issue there are 1000 of someone over-reacting to something innocuous. They're trying to avoid both, and it's not as easy as it may seem. Unfortunately only in hindsight can you be sure of the correct path. It can be difficult on the other side of the fence... it's probably easier to sit on this side and make assumptions and accusations. Did they fuck up? Sure. But does that mean that I don't trust that they pull tested something that they said they did? No. Pull testing isn't rocket science and I don't believe that they are so morally evil that they would just say they did for the hell of it. Now, would I climb on them even after they've been pull tested? That's a different question for a different thread.
Not suggesting they're evil, just perhaps incompetant. Knowing nothing of pull testing, my thought is, "How do I know they're doing that right?"
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j_ung
Sep 27, 2007, 4:52 PM
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NSFW wrote: They had a QC issue, and maybe they didn't handle it as good as they could have at first indication. It happens a lot in manufacturing. But for every instance of a company not reacting sufficiently for any given issue there are 1000 of someone over-reacting to something innocuous. They're trying to avoid both, and it's not as easy as it may seem. Unfortunately only in hindsight can you be sure of the correct path. It can be difficult on the other side of the fence... it's probably easier to sit on this side and make assumptions and accusations.
Given the available information, which by now is pretty much everywhere, that's ridiculous to the point of being very ridiculous. I had to re-read it several times to make sure it said what I thought it said. To write criticism off as 20/20 hindsight is is completely incorrect. Most of sat and watched as CCH made error after error, resisted the truth and damned near killed people all while ignoring advice from pretty much everybody who gave it.
You understand that units marked tensile tested by CCH have been documented failing at unacceptably low loads, right? I'll believe Russ Walling over Dave Waggoner any day.
In reply to: I don't believe that they are so morally evil that they would just say they did for the hell of it.
Neither do I. But, I for damned sure believe they're incompetent enough to think they tested something they didn't actually test and then send it back with their little seal of approval.
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cracklover
Sep 27, 2007, 5:06 PM
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notch wrote: Knowing nothing of pull testing, my thought is, "How do I know they're doing that right?"
You don't. But their screwup rate is still very low. So their chances of screwing up twice is infinitessmaly low. It's simple math. If they screwed up 1/5,000 cams, your chance of having a faulty cam is 1/5,000. If you send that cam in for testing, and the tester forgets to test 1/5,000 of the cams that come in the door, your chances of getting a faulty and untested cam are 1/5000*5000, or 1/25 million.
Oh, and I didn't send any of mine or my friends' in. I tested them all myself, personally, to around 5kN. :)
GO
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sevrdhed
Sep 27, 2007, 5:13 PM
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Don't worry Hosh, if some of the new cams fail in a fall, you'll be sure to hear about it here. Having not seen any 20000 page threads about Aliens recently, I'll assume that they haven't hurt anyone yet.
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shimanilami
Sep 29, 2007, 6:17 AM
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The only complaint I have is that they're harder to find nowadays. I've been waiting months for Mountaintools to send me a yellow (to complete my third set).
The new ones are sweet. The nylon sheath and the solid wires are clear improvements. And they all catch falls just fine.
And if you don't trust them, then STFU and buy something else.
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vegastradguy
Sep 29, 2007, 7:00 AM
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shimanilami wrote: The only complaint I have is that they're harder to find nowadays. I've been waiting months for Mountaintools to send me a yellow (to complete my third set). The new ones are sweet. The nylon sheath and the solid wires are clear improvements. And they all catch falls just fine. And if you don't trust them, then STFU and buy something else.
dude, call Desert Rock in Vegas- Travis has like...4 full sets of them just hanging on his wall, including hybrids. I'd bet Neptunes and Rock and Snow also have a bunch. The last time I was in the Mountain Shop in the Valley, their racks were full. getting Aliens is not a problem these days because not very many people are buying them anymore....
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healyje
Sep 29, 2007, 8:49 AM
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shimanilami wrote: And if you don't trust them, then STFU and buy something else.
Actually, I don't trust them, CCH, or Dave. And at this point, with the documented failures we've seen over the past several years - including post-recall and 'Tensile Tested' cams - it isn't the sort of issue to keep quiet about. Quite the contrary - I'd say as a community we have a responsibility to let folks know these products aren't safe. Anyone buying them at this stage is completely clueless, in denial, or doing their own testing and taking their chances.
STFU is what anyone attempting to defend CCH or Aliens should do.
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curt
Sep 29, 2007, 2:51 PM
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healyje wrote: shimanilami wrote: And if you don't trust them, then STFU and buy something else. Actually, I don't trust them, CCH, or Dave. And at this point, with the documented failures we've seen over the past several years - including post-recall and 'Tensile Tested' cams - it isn't the sort of issue to keep quiet about. Quite the contrary - I'd say as a community we have a responsibility to let folks know these products aren't safe. Anyone buying them at this stage is completely clueless, in denial, or doing their own testing and taking their chances. STFU is what anyone attempting to defend CCH or Aliens should do.
I agree completely. In fact, be sure to re-read the post by renneberg above. I'll repost it here:
renneberg wrote: I have tested many "New Aliens" Stamped tested etc. Photos of the test have been posted here and on Supertopo. FISH agrees with and supports the test.
I have had 2 fail early, 1100# and 1200#.
Not cool. Dave now posts that the he does not approve of the test.... I bet he does not!
The complete incompetence demonstrated by CCH is truly amazing.
Curt
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gimmeslack
Sep 29, 2007, 7:16 PM
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The Gendarme at Seneca Rocks had a good stock of them a couple of weeks ago.
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cracklover
Sep 29, 2007, 8:06 PM
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The local EMS has a ton of 'em.
Plenty of 'em out there if you want 'em. Caveat emptor never seemed so true, though.
GO
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billcoe_
Sep 30, 2007, 9:00 PM
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j_ung wrote: ....units marked tensile tested by CCH have been documented failing at unacceptably low loads, right?
Right. That guy that got dug out of the dirt on Soulders Crack had a new yellow one. One that was suppose to be tested.
The new "Aliens" (narrow head 4 cam units) that Metolius are coming out with are not expected to fail.
Why not just wait for the quality product? Screw CCH, they really deserve to be in some other non-critical line of work in my opinion.
Maybe quilting...........Knitting........Sewing...but non-critical things: not haul bags and harnesses, but like pants. Hey, your brand new pants rip right up the crotch when you are giving a speech in public and fall right off exposing your bare ass, so what eh?
At least you still get to walk away from their mistake.
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pbcowboy77
Oct 1, 2007, 4:59 PM
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I'm not going to get into the debate about this or defend CCH. All I have to say is that I took a 10 footer on a new Red/Yellow hybrid and I weigh 230 lbs. and guess what... I'm still alive. I also have a like 10 of the new ones and I've not only bounce tested the crap out of them on the ground, but I've taken them on a couple of big walls now and place them all the time and bounce the hell out of them.
So to answer your question, Yes I have taken a fall on them and I've really put all of mine to the test and they are fine.
If you don't feel right about using them when you buy them, send them to Russ at fish. He does an amazing job and I would trust the guy with my life when it comes to climbing.
I hope this helped and didn't stir up any more big debates.
Now I'm headed back to Supertaco...
Caz
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murf
Oct 1, 2007, 5:18 PM
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pbcowboy77 wrote: Now I'm headed back to Supertaco...
Screw the Taco, how about heading to JT or maybe the gym? Hows the shoulder?
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pbcowboy77
Oct 1, 2007, 5:21 PM
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The Shoulder is fine but China sucks. As I type this I'm back in the US in 5 days 2 hours and 11 minutes...
Good to hear from you Murf.
Oh and I'm down for JTree any time. Hell I can still belay 5.13.
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dudemanbu
Oct 1, 2007, 11:15 PM
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Man, i remember back in 2005 if anyone posted anything bad about CCH, they were practically chased from the site with torches and pitchforks. How the times have changed.
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ja1484
Oct 1, 2007, 11:28 PM
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In reply to: I don't believe that they are so morally evil that they would just say they did for the hell of it.
According to the rumor mill, more like drunk at work than morally evil.
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reno
Oct 2, 2007, 2:44 AM
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pbcowboy77 wrote: Oh and I'm down for JTree any time. Hell I can still belay 5.13.
Dude, I'm there, as long as you can still belay 5.2.
Single again, so no constraints on climbing trips other than work. And work is quite flexible.
And the weather is getting much more conducive to JT climbing.
I'll bring some Jack, if it helps.
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hosh
Oct 2, 2007, 7:38 AM
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pbcowboy77 wrote: reno wrote: I'll bring some Jack, if it helps. Dude you bring Jack and I'll be anywhere... Are we starting to hijack this thread? Caz
What's the deal? I've noticed more talk about J-tree on this site lately than I've ever noticed before. What gives?
hosh.
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pbcowboy77
Oct 2, 2007, 7:59 AM
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hosh wrote: pbcowboy77 wrote: reno wrote: I'll bring some Jack, if it helps. Dude you bring Jack and I'll be anywhere... Are we starting to hijack this thread? Caz What's the deal? I've noticed more talk about J-tree on this site lately than I've ever noticed before. What gives? hosh.
It's about that time that everyone gets the JTree itch...
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reno
Oct 2, 2007, 1:35 PM
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hosh wrote: What's the deal? I've noticed more talk about J-tree on this site lately than I've ever noticed before. What gives?
It's that time of year. You'll see more posts about Red Rock Canyon in Vegas, too.
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LaddRaine
Oct 2, 2007, 2:19 PM
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I've taken substantial lead falls on both my new blue aliens, they have held just fine. I haven't fallen yet on my greens, yellows, or my red. I'm confident in placing my Aliens, and I never hesitate.
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Nnorthwall
Oct 2, 2007, 8:29 PM
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Aliens major problem is over heat the 7 X 19 cable on silver solder brazing process.
Silver solder Braze temperature is F 1,240 degree.
5/32 inch diameter X 7 strand X 19 wire cable is form with 133 fine(.009 inch diameter) stainless steel wire. Silver solder braze has to be done on 133 wire and cabble end fitting if not loose strength.
"Silver Solder braze Heat Control system" for the 5/32X7 X19 cable is not in the market. That is why
BD, Metolius and DMM not use Silver soldering process for the 7 X 19 cable. They are use Swage process(cold process).
Any over heat on the 133 fine wire will burn the fine wire and loose strength. Burn wire color will be dark gray color. I saw your brocken(@1100 and 1200 lbs) Aliens picture, cable color was dark gray color. It is burned the fine 133 wire and loose strength.
"Hope" gear retailer and climber understand above and save climber's life
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NSFW
Oct 2, 2007, 8:39 PM
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pbcowboy77 wrote: hosh wrote: pbcowboy77 wrote: reno wrote: I'll bring some Jack, if it helps. Dude you bring Jack and I'll be anywhere... Are we starting to hijack this thread? Caz What's the deal? I've noticed more talk about J-tree on this site lately than I've ever noticed before. What gives? hosh. It's about that time that everyone gets the JTree itch...
I got that last year, took 3 rounds of antibiotics to finally get rid of it.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 3, 2007, 12:26 AM
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hosh wrote: pbcowboy77 wrote: reno wrote: I'll bring some Jack, if it helps. Dude you bring Jack and I'll be anywhere... Are we starting to hijack this thread? Caz What's the deal? I've noticed more talk about J-tree on this site lately than I've ever noticed before. What gives? hosh.
The average temperature in the desert is about 75 degrees this time of year....it's nice ;)
But yeah, JTree has always been over rated as a climbing area.
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