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caughtinside
Sep 26, 2007, 8:59 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: «There are only a couple differences. bi-color, diameter and length. Oh yeah, and dry.» My take: after a few days of crag use with either rappelling or lowering, there's little difference between dry ropes and untreated ropes. About 10 years ago, I weighed 2 ropes, which were identical except for the dry treatment, when they were dry. Then I placed them in the bathtub for 15 minutes. They both gained exactly the same weight. This confirmed my obvservation that outdoors they both got just as wet if it rained. Cheers, r.c
thanks for the input!
pacificus punctimonius paciam.
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j_ung
Sep 26, 2007, 9:32 PM
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If you, personally, don't discern about handling, stiffness, durability and the like, then of course it's all irrelevant. If you do, then it isn't. I do, and so do a lot of other climbers. I'll guess most of us.
I agree with you to a point. There are a ton of fantastic, worthwhile ropes on the market right now -- almost all of them, IMO. To me, however, that's even more reason for people to fine tune and get exactly the rope they want to use. I'm not so young anymore nor am I a dirtbag, but I remember being those and I remember how much price played into what I bought (typically whatever I could prodeal). Now that I actually earn a fair wage, though, I don't skimp on gear. I find what fits my preferences best and buy that.
True, I haven't paid a penny for my last two ropes, but between them I recorded what I think are pretty substantial differences.
Edit = typo
(This post was edited by j_ung on Sep 26, 2007, 9:34 PM)
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caughtinside
Sep 26, 2007, 9:46 PM
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j_ung wrote: If you, personally, don't discern about handling, stiffness, durability and the like, then of course it's all irrelevant.
If I can tie a knot in it, it's good to go.
I see it like biners, nuts, cams, whatever. If it is different, it will feel different at first. But it takes very little time to adjust to the difference and proceed. Any percieved advantages of one over another don't come into play with ropes because they wear out so much faster than the above mentioned gear.
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k.l.k
Sep 26, 2007, 10:18 PM
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I took almost ten years off from rope climbing to do nothing but boulder and solo. When I started back in rope climbing again, I learned several things.
1.Ropes are really, really skinny now.
2.You get really tired holding a flailing second with a body belay on a shiny new 9.1 while hanging in your swami.
3.The Dulfersitz is still possible but considerably less fun than it once was.
4.Ropes of similar sizes and applications, but from different makers, are a lot more similar than they were, say, twenty years ago.
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shimanilami
Sep 26, 2007, 10:29 PM
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caughtinside wrote: I see it like biners, nuts, cams, whatever. If it is different, it will feel different at first. But it takes very little time to adjust to the difference and proceed. Any percieved advantages of one over another don't come into play with ropes because they wear out so much faster than the above mentioned gear.
OK, now you've crossed the line. There are more than "perceived advantages" to certain 'biners, nuts and cams. Climbing on Aliens, for instance, will put hair on your chest, while trying to locate HB Offsets will cause you to pull your hair out. (I, for one, am one patchy-haired mofo.)
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 26, 2007, 10:31 PM
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I kind of agree with this to a point. Most important factor is weight and price. fat heavy rope is fine for spurt climbing where it will get beat up w/ all the hangdogging and lowering. Lighter skinnyer rope for multi pitch where you have to hike more and carry more stuff. My last 2 craggin/spurt ropes were Edelweis $119.95 and Beal $114.95 I specificaly got the beal ecause it is lighter and hadles better, the bonus is it's cheaper. If the Edelweise was lighter I would have sprung the extra $5.00 for the lighter rope. If I can't find annother reasonably priced single rope I will get annother Edelweis. I guess what I am getting at is that while some ropes are better than others they all work and its not worth more than $20 or $30.00 extra to get the better handleing rope. No feckin way will I spend $200.00 on a craggin/spurt rope when I can get a slightly stiffer /heavier rope for $119.00 Any rope company out there that does not sell a decent rope for that price is missing out! Their only saveing grace is that cheap Edelweis is quite possibly the stiffest, heaviest rope on the market these days...... If one of the other guys put a decent single rope out that was better handeling than the Edelweis and 5 bucks ceaper there would be no need to shop any farther for a single rope!! Give us some feckin Price wars!!! I don't care what brand as long as it's cheap and not too heavy.. Alpine /ice ropes are bit more specialized. better dry treatment, weight and cut resistance are worth extra $$ craggin rope = Cheapest one available
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caughtinside
Sep 26, 2007, 10:32 PM
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shimanilami wrote: caughtinside wrote: I see it like biners, nuts, cams, whatever. If it is different, it will feel different at first. But it takes very little time to adjust to the difference and proceed. Any percieved advantages of one over another don't come into play with ropes because they wear out so much faster than the above mentioned gear. OK, now you've crossed the line. There are more than "perceived advantages" to certain 'biners, nuts and cams. Climbing on Aliens, for instance, will put hair on your chest, while trying to locate HB Offsets will cause you to pull your hair out. (I, for one, am one patchy-haired mofo.)
What's that? You climb Cali granite and don't have the H Beez? Man, that is sad!
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roy_hinkley_jr
Sep 26, 2007, 10:46 PM
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caughtinside wrote: I've been climbing for 6 years now, just enough to spout off about my ignorance.
Get back to us in a decade when you have some real experience...you'll be singing a different tune for sure.
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NSFW
Sep 26, 2007, 10:50 PM
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caughtinside wrote: shimanilami wrote: caughtinside wrote: I see it like biners, nuts, cams, whatever. If it is different, it will feel different at first. But it takes very little time to adjust to the difference and proceed. Any percieved advantages of one over another don't come into play with ropes because they wear out so much faster than the above mentioned gear. OK, now you've crossed the line. There are more than "perceived advantages" to certain 'biners, nuts and cams. Climbing on Aliens, for instance, will put hair on your chest, while trying to locate HB Offsets will cause you to pull your hair out. (I, for one, am one patchy-haired mofo.) What's that? You climb Cali granite and don't have the H Beez? Man, that is sad!
I’m still upset I’m not in that bomb. With all the effort I’ve put in helping to plot your demise I would have thought I’d earned a place on the list.
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caughtinside
Sep 26, 2007, 10:51 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: caughtinside wrote: I've been climbing for 6 years now, just enough to spout off about my ignorance. Get back to us in a decade when you have some real experience...you'll be singing a different tune for sure.
That's funny. A number of climbers with 10 and 15 years plus experience have already said it isn't a huge deal.
Some have the same opinion as yourself as well. But hell, so do a lot of n00bs.
My favorite part of all of it is that no one can ever tell you WHY rope A is better than rope B. Or, if they do, someone else will chime in and say B is better than A.
All ropes. The same.
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NSFW
Sep 26, 2007, 10:53 PM
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caughtinside wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: caughtinside wrote: I've been climbing for 6 years now, just enough to spout off about my ignorance. Get back to us in a decade when you have some real experience...you'll be singing a different tune for sure. That's funny. A number of climbers with 10 and 15 years plus experience have already said it isn't a huge deal. Some have the same opinion as yourself as well. But hell, so do a lot of n00bs. My favorite part of all of it is that no one can ever tell you WHY rope A is better than rope B. Or, if they do, someone else will chime in and say B is better than A.
So you're saying that Mammut is better?
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caughtinside
Sep 26, 2007, 10:53 PM
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NSFW wrote: caughtinside wrote: shimanilami wrote: caughtinside wrote: I see it like biners, nuts, cams, whatever. If it is different, it will feel different at first. But it takes very little time to adjust to the difference and proceed. Any percieved advantages of one over another don't come into play with ropes because they wear out so much faster than the above mentioned gear. OK, now you've crossed the line. There are more than "perceived advantages" to certain 'biners, nuts and cams. Climbing on Aliens, for instance, will put hair on your chest, while trying to locate HB Offsets will cause you to pull your hair out. (I, for one, am one patchy-haired mofo.) What's that? You climb Cali granite and don't have the H Beez? Man, that is sad! I’m still upset I’m not in that bomb. With all the effort I’ve put in helping to plot your demise I would have thought I’d earned a place on the list.
Sorry. It seemed mostly like a zeke-art conspiracy, which snoop then joined. You didn't start threatening to kill me until more recently.
H Beez? ...no.
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caughtinside
Sep 26, 2007, 10:54 PM
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NSFW wrote: caughtinside wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: caughtinside wrote: I've been climbing for 6 years now, just enough to spout off about my ignorance. Get back to us in a decade when you have some real experience...you'll be singing a different tune for sure. That's funny. A number of climbers with 10 and 15 years plus experience have already said it isn't a huge deal. Some have the same opinion as yourself as well. But hell, so do a lot of n00bs. My favorite part of all of it is that no one can ever tell you WHY rope A is better than rope B. Or, if they do, someone else will chime in and say B is better than A. So you're saying that Mammut is better?
Some of the time. Except when it's not.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 26, 2007, 10:55 PM
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Heck I have been climbing for abut 25 years now and as far as sprt and single pitch trad cragging goes cheapest rope is just fine..
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moss1956
Sep 26, 2007, 11:19 PM
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I agree that the cheapest one works great. However, they aren't all alike... its just that the differences don't matter.
For the most part.
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slablizard
Sep 26, 2007, 11:29 PM
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Not agree.
3 totally different ropes:
Sterling 10.2 mm, double color dri X 70 mt.
this rope is 6 years old, still supple, much less dynamic than before (of course) is now my gym lead rope. has seen tons of falls and massive TR sessions.
Mammut Flash 10.5 mm X 70 mt:
3 years old, this rope "puffed out" so much it's a workout to belay it with a gri-gri. My partners literally won't belay me on this rope, it became super stiff, the rope itself apart that is in good conditions
Edelrid wire, 9.8 mm X 70 mt
Fantastic rope, Still fairly new is the best I ever had,
Has seen a lot of climbing and falling already, shows some damage on the outer sheat but other than that looks like it will work for a long long time.
3 ropes 3 different behaviours...
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 26, 2007, 11:43 PM
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Of course they all behave differently but the bottom line is they all catch you in a fall so while you may prefer one rope how much extra money is that prefrence worth to you? Would you compromise a bit of handleing for better price knowing that both ropes are totally safe? For me the cut off point is about $20.00 and then ONLY if the better rope is AMAZEING. So if i can get a 10.0 to 10.3 rope on sale for under $120.00 that is the rope that i will buy. If the only rope in that price range is the Edelweis 10.3 then i may be talked into spewnding and extra 10 or maby even $20.00 to get ANY other rope as i am familiar with how stiff that sucker is. Bottom line though is that I will NOT spend $150 or higher on a single rope if I can help it.
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slablizard
Sep 26, 2007, 11:57 PM
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Absolutely....I keep buying dri ropes while I NEVER climbed in the rain...go figure, my point was that at the same amount of use the mammut and the Sterling had completely different outcomes. I can still climb with the older Sterling, while the mammut (overall in better shape, but too stiff) is in the garage...
just my 2c
tradmanclimbs wrote: Of course they all behave differently but the bottom line is they all catch you in a fall so while you may prefer one rope how much extra money is that prefrence worth to you? Would you compromise a bit of handleing for better price knowing that both ropes are totally safe? For me the cut off point is about $20.00 and then ONLY if the better rope is AMAZEING. So if i can get a 10.0 to 10.3 rope on sale for under $120.00 that is the rope that i will buy. If the only rope in that price range is the Edelweis 10.3 then i may be talked into spewnding and extra 10 or maby even $20.00 to get ANY other rope as i am familiar with how stiff that sucker is. Bottom line though is that I will NOT spend $150 or higher on a single rope if I can help it. |
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caughtinside
Sep 27, 2007, 12:00 AM
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slablizard wrote: Absolutely....I keep buying dri ropes while I NEVER climbed in the rain...go figure, my point was that at the same amount of use the mammut and the Sterling had completely different outcomes. I can still climb with the older Sterling, while the mammut (overall in better shape, but too stiff) is in the garage... just my 2c tradmanclimbs wrote: Of course they all behave differently but the bottom line is they all catch you in a fall so while you may prefer one rope how much extra money is that prefrence worth to you? Would you compromise a bit of handleing for better price knowing that both ropes are totally safe? For me the cut off point is about $20.00 and then ONLY if the better rope is AMAZEING. So if i can get a 10.0 to 10.3 rope on sale for under $120.00 that is the rope that i will buy. If the only rope in that price range is the Edelweis 10.3 then i may be talked into spewnding and extra 10 or maby even $20.00 to get ANY other rope as i am familiar with how stiff that sucker is. Bottom line though is that I will NOT spend $150 or higher on a single rope if I can help it.
You mean you have discovered that the fattest rope you own is also the most difficult to feed through a grigri?? A scientific breakthrough!!
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slablizard
Sep 27, 2007, 12:07 AM
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caughtinside wrote: slablizard wrote: Absolutely....I keep buying dri ropes while I NEVER climbed in the rain...go figure, my point was that at the same amount of use the mammut and the Sterling had completely different outcomes. I can still climb with the older Sterling, while the mammut (overall in better shape, but too stiff) is in the garage... just my 2c tradmanclimbs wrote: Of course they all behave differently but the bottom line is they all catch you in a fall so while you may prefer one rope how much extra money is that prefrence worth to you? Would you compromise a bit of handleing for better price knowing that both ropes are totally safe? For me the cut off point is about $20.00 and then ONLY if the better rope is AMAZEING. So if i can get a 10.0 to 10.3 rope on sale for under $120.00 that is the rope that i will buy. If the only rope in that price range is the Edelweis 10.3 then i may be talked into spewnding and extra 10 or maby even $20.00 to get ANY other rope as i am familiar with how stiff that sucker is. Bottom line though is that I will NOT spend $150 or higher on a single rope if I can help it. You mean you have discovered that the fattest rope you own is also the most difficult to feed through a grigri?? A scientific breakthrough!!
lol.....
come on the 02 mm difference is not the point, you have to feel it, it's stiff, doesn't bend easily and it looks way bigger than 10.5...
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roy_hinkley_jr
Sep 27, 2007, 3:55 AM
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caughtinside wrote: My favorite part of all of it is that no one can ever tell you WHY rope A is better than rope B. Or, if they do, someone else will chime in and say B is better than A.
A noob asking the wrong questions to the wrong people is always going to get bad answers. Try asking intelligent questions to knowledgeable climbers and you'll learn something. Or just keep making a fool of yourself with dumb proclamations, your choice.
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caughtinside
Sep 27, 2007, 4:22 AM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: caughtinside wrote: My favorite part of all of it is that no one can ever tell you WHY rope A is better than rope B. Or, if they do, someone else will chime in and say B is better than A. A noob asking the wrong questions to the wrong people is always going to get bad answers. Try asking intelligent questions to knowledgeable climbers and you'll learn something. Or just keep making a fool of yourself with dumb proclamations, your choice.
So bascially, your whole point is to tell me I'm wrong. That's terrific. I appreciated the weak little insult as well. You don't strike me as someone who I could learn much from. Thanks anyway.
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docburner
Sep 27, 2007, 6:54 AM
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My rope gets me women, your rope gets you Zack. To me the difference is huge, to you probably not so much.
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j_ung
Sep 27, 2007, 1:53 PM
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caughtinside wrote: slablizard wrote: Absolutely....I keep buying dri ropes while I NEVER climbed in the rain...go figure, my point was that at the same amount of use the mammut and the Sterling had completely different outcomes. I can still climb with the older Sterling, while the mammut (overall in better shape, but too stiff) is in the garage... just my 2c tradmanclimbs wrote: Of course they all behave differently but the bottom line is they all catch you in a fall so while you may prefer one rope how much extra money is that prefrence worth to you? Would you compromise a bit of handleing for better price knowing that both ropes are totally safe? For me the cut off point is about $20.00 and then ONLY if the better rope is AMAZEING. So if i can get a 10.0 to 10.3 rope on sale for under $120.00 that is the rope that i will buy. If the only rope in that price range is the Edelweis 10.3 then i may be talked into spewnding and extra 10 or maby even $20.00 to get ANY other rope as i am familiar with how stiff that sucker is. Bottom line though is that I will NOT spend $150 or higher on a single rope if I can help it. You mean you have discovered that the fattest rope you own is also the most difficult to feed through a grigri?? A scientific breakthrough!!
Dave, I love you (in the I've-never-actually-met-you-except-online, non-romantic way). But you keep ignoring peoples' points here. Slabby just gave you an example of how two ropes' characteristics led to conditions that are different enough that he refuses to use one of them and always picks the other. That seems significant to me.
Here's another difference: dry treatments. Yeah, yeah, I know the age old argument that all dry treatments wear out so quickly that they might as well all be the same. But nowadays there are differences in dry treatment types to make that argument outdated. Some companies still only apply a coating to the sheath, which is meant to seal the rope from water (this is the old style dry treatment). Others have stepped up to newer methods, like treating individual sheath yarns or treating individual core yarns -- which is vastly superior and doesn't wear out quickly at all. Some tests show that wet ropes can lose up to 70% of their dynamic resistance, and that ropes with treated core yarn resist that effect pretty well. Is that insignificant, too?
Even the people who agree with you (including you!) are citing exceptions left and right, all while holding fast to the "all ropes are the same" claim. Okay, so I guess I'll join you... all ropes are the same, except when they're not.
Several edits for clarity and additions. 
(This post was edited by j_ung on Sep 27, 2007, 1:58 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 27, 2007, 2:07 PM
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Jung, yes some of the pricy dry tratments are better but that is a non issue for a cragging rope. cragging implys single or half pitch. If it rains we rap and go home.
Cragging rope = cheapest rope available or model of prefrence not more than $20 above cheapest price available.
Ice/alpine = cheapest super dry in your targeted weight and diameter range.
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