I have been on and off a project in the right bunker at Foster's since late spring. For awhile, I left a biner on the fourth bolt of the Bottled up/Abacus/Gas Chamber start for cleaning purposes. Instead of having to TR to the roof to clean the draws, you could just clip the biner and lower to grab the first three on the way down. After about two months, I had two biners taken, so i quicklinked a draw on the hanger.

Sometime over the summer, the draw was also taken (the quicklink had been wrench tight). Since the draw really wasnt long enough to be of much use to the climber, only to clean, I recently fixed a much longer sling made of rope onto the bolt. I only use that bolt/draw to clean from, but hoped that a longer fixed draw might be left, as a service to any and all climbers getting on the routes.

Once again, earlier this week, the draw was taken off route. I dont really mind that the gear has been taken, as I am using gear i dont really need, but it is frustrating that gear that has been left as a service, to climber or to clean, has been repeatedly 'bootied.'

What needs to happen to get people to leave 'fixed' gear alone? Does a chain with a loc-tited quicklink and zip-tied biner need to be put on? Maybe a note on the rock, in chalk, to leave the gear? If someone is just not psyched to have fixed gear on that bolt and has been repeatedly taking it off, please tell my why...

RJ

You are not getting the message
Do not leave your gear out there

After reading your post I assume you wouldn't know how to use the cleaner biner either and bootie it as a bail biner...

Assuming might get you in trouble. I figured that post would ruffle some feathers, which is good. More people need their feathers ruffled these days.

One should come to the crag prepared with the knowledge and gear needed to retrieve their equipment sans anything fixed. If not, they deserve the trouble they have doing so.

I don't need no cleaner 'biner and I don't want no cleaner 'biner and I don't worry about having "donated" fixed gear disappear because I don't leave anything fixed unless I have no other choice.

If you leave something fixed on a route, accept the fact you're parting ways with it and someone may make off with it. Once again: the crag is not your bedroom, it's more likely public access property of some kind, which means anything goes.

I find it adorable when people complain about fixed gear being "adjusted". Fixed 'biner gone? Use one of your own for your session, then take it home with you. Bolt hanger gone? You have the following options:

- Replace it
- Rivet-style
- Clean gear, if you have the option
- Sack up and highball the start

Bolt gone? Pick your adventure. Rap station looking sketchy? Hope you brought what you need to make your own.

Etc.

Any movement away from self-reliance within the activity of climbing is a foolhardy attitude adjustment. Adjust back.

a worthy post.

please, a cleaner biner? are you kidding me?

The cleaning biner/draw is best situated at the fourth bolt. If u are going to be cleaning BUW, clipping that piece is going to keep you from swinging very far while retrieving the first three draws.
If u are cleaning Abacus, you should have the first 4 bolts clipped, then the draw in the roof, the chain, and 3 more draws to the anchors. Clean the top 3, lower to the ground. Relead to bolt 4, clip the cleaning draw/biner, lower and clean your 4 draws.
If u are climbing Gas Chamber/Turbo/Turbo-Kill you will clip 3 draws, skip 4 and keep climbing on perma draws. To clean, relead and clip the fixed gear on bolt 4, lower and clean.

Vegas, i know you are a fairly accomplished climber. This leads me to think you are not the Douche McGoosh your post suggests. Since this is a discussion about a particular route at a particular area, may i enlighten on the situation??

There are 4, maybe 5 routes that share a common start. Extremely fun 5.9 climbing up a 3 bolt face to gain a stance beneath a roof. From this stance, you can then clip bolt 4.
From this stance, if you climb left-ish, the route is Bottled up Warroir, 12c. it has NO fixed gear.
If you climb strait up, after clipping bolt 4, you will then clip 2 fixed draws, hang three more and will have sent Abacus, 13a.
Climbing to the right, you need to skip bolt 4, and clip fixed gear on Gas Chamber 13a.
If you keep climbing right, and exit the cave, you get 13d credit and the route is Turbo Dog. All of the fixed gear on this, including the crux draw on Gas Chamber have been replace by me. If u can link this into Kill or be Killed, you get the FA. So Vegas, if you got the FA bug, come on down to Chossters, I'll hook you up with the beta and a belay.

I don't need no cleaner 'biner and I don't want no cleaner 'biner ..........................

and

Bolt gone? Pick your adventure. Rap station looking sketchy? Hope you brought what you need to make your own.

Any movement away from self-reliance within the activity of climbing is a foolhardy attitude adjustment. Adjust back.

You are not getting the message.
Do not leave your gear out there

These routes in question are 12c and up. Is there anyone out there that actually climbs 12c that objects to leaving cleaner biners?

Isn't it funny how the committed 5.12 climbers are the lazy ones and the 5.8 goobs that have been climbing for three weeks are the ethics police?

When bitching about these subjects consider if it actually affects you or not. Most of you can't get to the cleaner biner anyway.

Another funny thing about this particular forum is the idea that fixed chains are property of the crag and shouldn't be stolen while fixed draws are someone's personal property and should be removed and considered trash.

In the eloquent words of the poet philosopher CinnamonJohnson: "I wonder when someone is actually going to redpoint realization."

Peter Croft, surely he would take his stuff home at the end of the day. Last winter he had a fixed toprope on his project at Owens for months. Plus a cam anchor at ground level that I could have easily walked away with. Is it still booty that is up for grabs if it belongs to a guy that soloed astroman?

I'm just trying to reveal what real climbing is like. Sometimes it involves fixed gear and faith that the common man won't steal your things.

I've written similar posts every time this subject comes up. And I will continue to do so until the ethics police stop stealing my stuff.

Vegas, i know you are a fairly accomplished climber. This leads me to think you are not the Douche McGoosh your post suggests.
RJ

Guess what.....There is no governing body that regulates the hardware including bolts, chains, fixed webbing etc.

Guess what... you can leave it, they can take it. Of course you still seem to ignore the possibility that it was not a 'thief' that removed the gear, but another climber whose time was wasted getting someone else's crap off the climb they wanted to do. How convenient that thieves or ethinazis are always to blame. How one-sided of a perspective...

What' so funny about it is that the people that bitch about "leaving your shit at the crag" and "being too lazy to take your stuff home at the end of the day" are the 5.8, overweight, goobers.

Wokka Wokka Wokka

there were some ridiculous comments in there too. I kind of expected VTG to know better. .12 climbers learn from .8 climbers? That's regressive and silly. LNT in climbing is a myth, even if you are a trad climber.

I am a badass.

fuck that. what you do and how hard you climb is completely irrelevant to this conversation. clean up after yourself, that's all. or didnt your mother ever teach you that one?

if Croft actually did that, he just lost some serious respect from me- although i have trouble believing that.

sometimes it does. in my mind, fixed gear can be left overnight, two days at most.

start cleaning up after yourself, and then the ethics police wont have to steal your shit.

I sure am glad this crag is on private land and has the permission of the owner to develop it for sport climbers. Because if this was public land under discussion, it would certainly make those defenders of littering look pathetic. As long as they own the rock, or have permission of the owner, then leaving fixed gear is fine and removing it is a bad thing. If it so happens that the land belongs to taxpayers, then trash removal is the responsibilty of all real climbers.

I'll ask again....Do any of the "remove the cleaner biner" ethics police climb 5.12?
I wouldn't have to reveal my arrogant, elitist-prick attitude if people would just stop stealing fixed gear.

No, it's not. You're applying an ethic to a different style of climbing which has accepted fixed gear. Furthermore, it tends to show up more on harder climbs, because they are steeper and more difficult to clean. Since you have no interest in doing that sort of climbing, it seems foolish that you're compelled to tell some .12 climber to downclimb .9, which, on a steep climb necessitating fixed gear, would mean exposing yourself to decking. Think about it. TERRIFIC IDEA.

The whole 'clean up after yourself' schtick is pretty tired to. It's not trash. keep your trad ethics at the trad crag, don't bitch about what those sportos are doing since you don't want to do their climbs anyway, and we'll all get along just fine.

I don't doubt for a second that Croft did that? Why? Because everybody who's anybody does that. And not just occasionally, but routinely. Permanent draws, topropes, and hand lines, never mind bolts and anchors. Have you ever actually been to a real sport crag, John?

Says who? And why should this apply to draws but not bolts, or top anchors? How about trails to the crag? Should they be obliterated daily?

you seem to be under the notion that i dont sport climb. remember what happens when you assume?

and, once again, this is not about 'trad' and 'sport', this is about cleaning up after yourself. i should also note that my beef here is with the cleaner biner specifically. although, i still think that fixed draws are 1) a sign of laziness and 2) a unnecessary eyesore.

you seem to be under the notion that i dont sport climb. remember what happens when you assume?

and, once again, this is not about 'trad' and 'sport', this is about cleaning up after yourself. i should also note that my beef here is with the cleaner biner specifically. although, i still think that fixed draws are 1) a sign of laziness and 2) a unnecessary eyesore.

I know you climb sport routes some times. But I think I've also heard you mention you don't project routes. That's what this is about.

If you don't project sport routes and don't want to, that's cool. It would be nice if the practices of people who did were either respected or at least ignored. Not everyone wants to play by the rules of the trad taliban.

Not everyone wants to play by the rules of the trad taliban.

Yup. Certainly not the sport climber that stole the biner, haha.

DMT

Hah.

Anyway, I can't take full credit for the term trad taliban. I bastardized it from the local trad authorities, the 'strawberry taliban' aka 'the Leap constablery'