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catskillshiker


Nov 1, 2007, 10:09 AM
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kind of funny actually
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Story/01_CLIMBING


xtremst80


Nov 1, 2007, 10:13 AM
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........I think its pretty sad.


catskillshiker


Nov 1, 2007, 10:21 AM
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Its absurd. There are some good points, but some stupid ones too. It seems they "interviewed" gym climbers about outdoor climbing.


desertwanderer81


Nov 1, 2007, 10:24 AM
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In reply to:
"They should have signs and stuff and trash cans outside," said Pham, who climbs regularly in the safety of a San Francisco gym. "I don't think they even clean your rocks off for you out there."

LOL

edit: oh and this!
In reply to:
Young climbers often start out bouldering, a ropes-free style that helps build strength, but can also leave forest floors strewn with chalk and abandoned crashpads.

I wish I could find some abandoned crash pads :P


(This post was edited by desertwanderer81 on Nov 1, 2007, 10:27 AM)


Partner dominic7


Nov 1, 2007, 10:28 AM
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article wrote:
"They should have signs and stuff and trash cans outside," said Pham, who climbs regularly in the safety of a San Francisco gym. "I don't think they even clean your rocks off for you out there."

That's one of my pet peeves too! Dirty rocks == Lazy rangers as far as I'm concerned.


desertwanderer81


Nov 1, 2007, 10:35 AM
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dominic7 wrote:
article wrote:
"They should have signs and stuff and trash cans outside," said Pham, who climbs regularly in the safety of a San Francisco gym. "I don't think they even clean your rocks off for you out there."

That's one of my pet peeves too! Dirty rocks == Lazy rangers as far as I'm concerned.

WIPE MY ASS ;)


reg


Nov 1, 2007, 10:45 AM
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this one got me:
"Millions of Americans have developed a taste for rock climbing, a fad fueled by a proliferation of urban climbing gyms and glamorized by programs like America's Next Top Model, "
get the hell outta here! LOL way to hard. ow! i think i sprained my duodunum.

i hate to see peeps leaving garbage. probably the worst thing in my mind. no excuse for it.


climbsomething


Nov 1, 2007, 10:57 AM
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catskillshiker wrote:
kind of funny actually
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Story/01_CLIMBING
I'm not sure what you mean by "funny." It's sad and true, and while it does not paint a rosy picture of climbing, it's the AP, not Rock & Ice. It's what other people see, and it's not just perception- it's reality. And yes, boulderers can and do leave abandoned (stashed, but what's the difference to a non-climber?) pads in their radly-rad areas while they project. Just like trad, sport and wall climbers cache gear.

I also don't think the reporters just passed off gymbies as experts. Bryan Law is a name climber in the region, and the guy from SF, they got a very subtle dig in at his gym status in the context of his quote. I think the reporter was savvy enough to know who s/he was talking to.

The AP isn't the type of org that puts out DURRRRRRRR information about rope guns and "free climbing." The thrust of the story is true: 1) climbing, despite the efforts of many good stewards, does leave an impact that is hard to ignore and sometimes hard to repair, and 2) it attracts n00bs and gumbies by the gross.


sidepull


Nov 1, 2007, 11:08 AM
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cue metallica's "sad but true"


k.l.k


Nov 1, 2007, 11:35 AM
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I was surprised at how good the piece was, given the audience and the AP. American journalistic coverage of climbing is embarassingly bad, with the exception of a handful of smaller papers in mountain regions, especially if compared to, say, the Manchester Guardian or The Times.

The piece has a simple punchline: gym climbers need to learn outdoor and wilderness skillsets if they are going to venture into the outdoors.

That point cannot be repeated enough, especially in media outlets aimed at mainstream markets (i.e., the general public, gym climbers and potential future gym climbers).


catskillshiker


Nov 1, 2007, 12:00 PM
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I agree it has some very good points. But "signs and stuff and garbage cans outside." I don't think so. Pack it in, pack it out.

"they dont even clean your rocks off for you out there"
This statement is what I found funny. It also leads me to believe that this person had no clue.


just_throw_it


Nov 1, 2007, 12:16 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
catskillshiker wrote:
kind of funny actually
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Story/01_CLIMBING
I'm not sure what you mean by "funny." It's sad and true, and while it does not paint a rosy picture of climbing, it's the AP, not Rock & Ice. It's what other people see, and it's not just perception- it's reality. And yes, boulderers can and do leave abandoned (stashed, but what's the difference to a non-climber?) pads in their radly-rad areas while they project. Just like trad, sport and wall climbers cache gear.

I also don't think the reporters just passed off gymbies as experts. Bryan Law is a name climber in the region, and the guy from SF, they got a very subtle dig in at his gym status in the context of his quote. I think the reporter was savvy enough to know who s/he was talking to.

The AP isn't the type of org that puts out DURRRRRRRR information about rope guns and "free climbing." The thrust of the story is true: 1) climbing, despite the efforts of many good stewards, does leave an impact that is hard to ignore and sometimes hard to repair, and 2) it attracts n00bs and gumbies by the gross.

as a n00b who climbed cathedral peak for my second multipitch EVER, i feel humbled and saddened by this article. i struggle with the obvious dislike of newbies to this sport--although i grant you that many ARE discourteous, insensitive, and downright dumb assholes who think they can scamper up anything. climbing cathedral peak this july was a life defining moment for me. it quite literally changed the way i look at my world. since then, i've been fanatical about climbing outdoors and get out to the gunks as often as possible. i go with friends whose experience is far greater than mine, and each time i learn so much as well as climbing beyond what i thought was possible (they push me, but not beyond my capabilities). i know that my first experience at cathedral peak was ridiculous--by epic proportions--and i mean epic--the whole 9--elation, weeping, wanting my momma, and finally relief and pride at having made it. as proud as i am, i feel a sense of humilation at the crying part. however, it is what is is--and it's done. the only thing i can do is resolve to not do that again--and so far, have not--even on those climbs that scared the shit out of me.

but what i struggle with most is that at some point everyone was new to climbing. i think if you climb with trusted, experienced partners, with a desire to learn and excel, respect the environment (i am a firm believer in lnt), respect crag ettiquette, and generally show a seriousness about climbing, you shouldn't get a bad rap just because you're a "gumby".

or is that just too idealistic on my part?


k.l.k


Nov 1, 2007, 12:38 PM
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csh--

you're SUPPOSED to infer that the gym climber has no clue. the gym climber quote is a deliberate bit of irony. the rest of the piece is about the ways that gym climbers are unfamiliar with the bigger picture of being outdoors (as in expecting other folks to clean up after you, or having garbage cans installed all through the wilderness).

we are supposed to read pham as a well-meaning but clueless gymbie who has no idea of how even to approach the outdoors. while jesse, the yos climbing ranger and hero of the article, carefully explains the leave-no-trace ethic.

actually, the least happy aspect of the piece is that the gym climbers quoted all are women and, in at least one case, ethnic, while white guys are the saviours of the wilderness. that's not because the author or ap are evil racists, but probably because of the folks available who were quotable. and it is also at least partly a reflection of a new demography, namely, that urban gyms are opening up the sport to folks who don't look like royal robbins.


k.l.k


Nov 1, 2007, 12:54 PM
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In reply to:
but what i struggle with most is that at some point everyone was new to climbing. i think if you climb with trusted, experienced partners, with a desire to learn and excel, respect the environment (i am a firm believer in lnt), respect crag ettiquette, and generally show a seriousness about climbing, you shouldn't get a bad rap just because you're a "gumby".

or is that just too idealistic on my part?

JTI-- The point of the piece is that most of today's n00bs are different from yesterday's n00bs. yesterday's n00bs learned outdoors. that means that not only did they learn on "trad" gear, the ones who learned in the sixties and seventies also learned at the height of the popularity of the "leave no trace" ethic in hiking, backpacking and climbing. yesterday's n00bs thus learned an ecological approach (at least one that the nps could recognize and approve) as part of their basic technical training.

yesterday's n00bs also usually took up climbing after many years of outdoor experience-- hiking, backpacking, scrambling-- in which they learned background skills: how to read the weather; how to self-rescue off-trail; how to find your way off trail; how to grovel down a descent or approach gully in the rain; and on and on. they thus had a lot of related experience before they ever tied into a rope.

today's n00bs typically learn from climbing in a gym. they are not taught a leave-no-trace ethic as part of their basic technical skill set, or at all. typically, they have had limited or no exposure to big desert or mountain environments. many of them haven't even learned how to hike in a smooth and efficient manner, on or off trail. they don't know what "pack-it-out" means.

that doesn't make today's n00bs wicked people. it does make them less prepared to deal with the sort of issues that arise every day in the backcountry or even just a few minutes away from the car. it also means that they are far more comfortable transferring gym-appropriate behaviors, attitudes, and equipment to areas in which those things may be inappropriate, illegal or dangerous.

more power to you for learning how to climb in the mountains. and it may be that you are atypical. but for many of today's n00bs, the most important things they need to learn about climbing outdoors have nothing to do with gear or thumblocks. they need to learn to hike and to scramble and to read the weather and to navigate in the backcountry and to be smooth and comfortable on easy but exposed ground and to avoid feeding the bears and live with the rangers. along the way, maybe they can learn how to work a rack of widgets.

of course, i bang that drum almost every time i log on here, in the hope that it will inspire at least a few n00b readers to take it as friendly advice. maybe it will help them to get through the danger period that all of us go through when trying to acquire a basic technical competence in the mountains.

cheers

kerwin


JohnCook


Nov 1, 2007, 1:54 PM
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Its not just noobs!! I wne to cliffs crags and mountains all the way from the 1960's to present and there has always been a minority of climbers who have spoiled the environment. The leave litter, rubbish food containers, (from waxed paper in the 60's through easy open beer and ffod cans, plastic bags, through to cling film, bits of carpet and yes, stashed gear.) Even the ubiquitous fag end, apart from the fire risk in many areas, filter tips take years to bio-degrade, and are toxic to many animals which are tempted to eat them.
In the late 70's/early80's it was loud music during the portable tape era. Now its the tinny sound of ipods being played so loud that they can be heard hissing from yards away. How the the belayer/wearer can hear its leaders calls above this noise? There are many forms of pollution and every generation has found their own way of introducing them.
Gyms are not responsible for how morons act outside their walls. Inside they teach consideration/safety towards other wall users. They teach don't leave litter in the building etc etc. The big problem lies with the throwaway society in which we live. All food now comes double and triple wrapped, in some cases the wrapping weighs almost as much as the food (Had Parma ham where the wrapping actually weighed more than the food, made the delicatessen wheigh it unwrapped and then put it in only one layer of wrapping. )
These litter louts need a good exampke. I have seen a Park Ranger drop a candy wrapper. When told about it he asked for my name, address, car licence number etc. I left the park quicky and reported it to the head ranger. No thank you or any thing. Just 'ok its noted'
We all have a resposiblity to educate, rangers, guides instructors leaders, friends relatives and even just people passing by although these days an obscene reply is usually the response, and not just from the young. In my experience the boulderers are the ones who play loud music shout and swear, and leave a mess, much more so than the trad or sport climber. Perhaps if all climbers made a greater effort the idea may filter down though the outdoor world.
Excuse the rant, I'm not a rabid environmentalist, I just want to enjoy the outdoors. It's not called Great for nothing.


climbsomething


Nov 1, 2007, 2:06 PM
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Kerwin gets it. Thanks for your intelligent contribution to this thread instead of furthering it down the path of "OMG durrr somebody said something clueless about climming cliffhanger vertical limit!" You seem to have more patience than I do. Heh.

just_throw, you sound like you "get it" too. And know that n00bs and gumbies are not necessarily the same thing. It's ok to be one, but not the other.


(This post was edited by climbsomething on Nov 1, 2007, 2:41 PM)


evanwish


Nov 1, 2007, 3:32 PM
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first off that amout (or ANY) amount of garbage left out on the rock is rediculous and unacceptable.
[in fact on sunday i picked up allot of trash at the Leap]

one question this brings up for me is with people's transition from gym climbing to outdoor what qualifies as nOOb exactly?

Before i ever started trad climbing i had done many backpacking trips, lots of 3rd class peak bagging, and plenty of outdoor top roping [getting me used to the feel and occasional fragile nature of real rock]

Durring the winter i learned how to sport climb on pre-placed draws, then went to pinnacles and did some "real" sport climbing, took classes on how to place pro and trad climb properly.. THEN i went outside trad climbing...

does this qualify me as a n00b like these guys???

seriously..


catskillshiker


Nov 1, 2007, 3:54 PM
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Thats awesome you picked up trash. Luckily around here we never get that much trash, but when I find it I'll pick it up.

So because you learned trad in a responsible way, you want to know if you qualify as a noob. I don't quite get your logic. I learned trad the same way, and im calling NOBODY a noob.


evanwish


Nov 1, 2007, 4:21 PM
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catskillshiker wrote:
So because you learned trad in a responsible way, you want to know if you qualify as a noob. I don't quite get your logic. I learned trad the same way, and im calling NOBODY a noob.

No not necisarily you;
I'm just referring to the general hatred towards anyone who came from a gym...

sometimes it is just ignorant. Or maybe i'm ignorant cause i just don't get it...


climbsomething


Nov 1, 2007, 4:47 PM
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Evan- I think "n00b" is a label handed out for how much time you've been climbing, regardless of classes taken or levels of gumbism- or that's how I use it. And it's very subjective. Without insulting you or calling you a gumby, I personally think you're a n00b. And like a lot of people say, everybody is a n00b to somebody (like Fred Beckey or the Conns!).


evanwish


Nov 1, 2007, 5:23 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
I personally think you're a n00b. And like a lot of people say, everybody is a n00b to somebody

haaa i'd agreee with that! i think your's said like 8000 posts... either you post allot or you've been climbing for a LONG TIME!
lol Cool


climbsomething


Nov 1, 2007, 5:32 PM
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Only one of the above is really true. Try occam's razor on that one Wink


Partner artm


Nov 1, 2007, 5:44 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
Only one of the above is really true. Try occam's razor on that one Wink
ooh oooh I know!


k.l.k


Nov 1, 2007, 7:00 PM
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ew--

i'm not hating on anyone who came from a gym. i'm simply pointing out the differences between climbers who begin in gyms and those who began outdoors (and especially those who began after clean climbing and before the rise of sport climbing).

today's new trad climbers are different from yesterday's. yes, there are exceptions. yes, there were folks in the 60s, 70s, and 80s who were obnoxious at the crag or left their trash behind. yes, there are some folks today who do begin outside or after years of high country backpacking.

today's n00bs, though, are less likely to have a basic set of outdoor skills aside from whatever number they climb. as a result, they are even more of a hazard to themselves and others than we were when we began.

on the other hand, today's n00bs are far more likely to be female or asian or latino, and that's a good thing. i don't want to discourage folks like "pham" (quoted in the ap article) from getting psyched to climb in the sierras, if that is what they want. they just need a lot more than a rack and a supertopo guide.


ant_zacchino


Nov 1, 2007, 8:04 PM
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huh... I have never seen crash pads just left abandoned.


just_throw_it


Nov 2, 2007, 3:29 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
Kerwin gets it. Thanks for your intelligent contribution to this thread instead of furthering it down the path of "OMG durrr somebody said something clueless about climming cliffhanger vertical limit!" You seem to have more patience than I do. Heh.

just_throw, you sound like you "get it" too. And know that n00bs and gumbies are not necessarily the same thing. It's ok to be one, but not the other.

thank you. alhough i did learn to climb in the gym, i am an avid outdoors person, and as soon as i climbed outdoors i was smitten. while i could stand to be better educated on backwoods/wilderness survival, i know that there are classes offered and plan to take. i will say that during the off season, i will be back on the gym, working on my technique and keeping my muscles toned--but it just won't be as much fun :(

does this mean i can remove the paper bag from my head when i climb now? it's really hard to get the helmet over it, and it kind of gets hot and stuffy.


(This post was edited by just_throw_it on Nov 2, 2007, 3:30 PM)


Partner epoch
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Nov 4, 2007, 5:08 PM
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Cross posting to keep the continuity of the subject relevant:
losgadh wrote:
HOLLY HELL. I was just handed a copy of todays Daily News paper here in LA. page A13's article: Rush to scale rocks taking environmental toll"
http://www.dailynews.com/...om-www.dailynews.com
I feared the worst; another bad press article about how we are destroying the environment. For those of us raised old-school who are very careful of where we tread and packing out all our trash we get tired of being blamed for stupid peoples behavior.
The article had statistics of the amount of trash that people are leaving at the bottom of well knows crags as well as quotes from one of yosems climbing rangers.
To my happy surprise though, the article put the blame where it really belongs. All those damn gym rats who have no sense of value or consideration for that which is not Given to them as a right, but borrowed from the earth in good faith that we will treat it well.
Shows such as "America's top Model" and the upswing of climbing gyms all over that do not teach people the way most of us were taught.
My favorite quote of the entire article, was by a gym rat named Ha Pham from San Fran (thats right baby, I hope your on here so I can tear you a new one) who said "They should have signs and stuff and trash cans outside." and "I don't think they even clean your rocks off for you out there"

There are so many things wrong with that quote that I don't even need to say anything, it speaks for itself.

Unfortunately for us it IS those very gym climbers who were interviewed for the article that represent the climbing community at whole. It's not those of us who keep to the shadows, mind our footsteps, and carry out bags of trash. The media went to the first place that they could to find climbers. It is these people that the uninformed public will listen to regarding all things climbing. Christ, just look at the askmen.com article a while ago.
Fortunately/unfortunately it is those very gym climbers that represent us. Discussions have been brought up about the popularity of the sport, Yosemite happens to be the Mecca for all things climbing in the US and what happens there seems to hold validity when things change elsewhere.

It may only get worse from here.


stymingersfink


Nov 4, 2007, 9:24 PM
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I DID enjoy the Brian Law quote within the article. Appropriate, definitely.


nswelton


Nov 9, 2007, 9:45 AM
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i think some of you guys are missing a more important point, which was that the story was totally inaccurate -- and those inaccuracies were read by millions of people who now probably think climbers are a bunch of a-holes.

the 900 pounds of abandoned rope the author uses to illustrate how much trash climbers leave were actually 900 pounds of cables discarded by the nps decades ago on half dome that were removed by the yosemite climbing association. instead, that detail was used to show how much trash we leave around, not how much trash we actually pick up.

the climbers we meet in the story are either:
a) violent ('i'm gonna push him off a cliff')
b) thieves ('stole a grand of gear')
c) morons ('why don't they clean the rock?')
d) animal abusers ('tied his dog to a tree in bear country')
e) people who trample pine trees

that's an inaccurate portrayal of climbers. of newbies and of experienced climbers. of gym rats and of sport climbers and of trad climbers and of big wallers.

then she says that climbers leave crash pads strewn all over the forest floor. really? i'd like to go get me some abandoned crash pads. one more ridiculous assertion used to illustrate how reckless we are.

she says that newbies drill holes in rocks to place bolts. ever met a newbie who did that? i sure haven't. yet another ridiculous assertion.

she says that climbers leave holes and stakes in the ground at josh. ever seen one? not me. and these stakes erode the cliffs? what?

the divisiveness in the climbing community really pisses me off. get off the whole anti-newbie kick and look at the story holistically, and then it might become clear that this article is a huge disservice to the hard work the climbing community has done to build rapport and trust with land managers and the public at large. it's frankly embarrassing.


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Nov 9, 2007, 10:50 AM
Post #30 of 30 (260 views)
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10161

Re: [nswelton] check out this article [In reply to]
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nswelton - interesting post, thanks! I guess that as rock climbing becomes a sport for the masses, it becomes fair game for articles such as this. The reporter is intelligently having fun at our expense. Sad/scary for us, but nothing new there.

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