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thorthealmightyteacup
Nov 28, 2007, 6:06 AM
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When I went down to my local gym the other day they had changed the way they teach beginners to belay with the gri-gri from the five point method to having people pull the rope with both hands through the gri gri and over their shoulder, not even locking off in case of a fall. Does this seem as dangerous to you as it does to me, or am I just being overly cautious?
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skiclimb
Nov 28, 2007, 9:05 AM
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Sad.. I always knew this day would come.
gonna be hell when one of those noobs threads it backwars and dosn't have a brake hand on the line..
oh well darwin was right.
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MikeSaint
Nov 28, 2007, 1:12 PM
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Unsafe? Possibly.
Bad Habbit? Definetly.
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erin
Nov 28, 2007, 1:38 PM
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why would they even think this seems like a good idea???????
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Carnage
Nov 28, 2007, 3:02 PM
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i hear stuff like this, then i go to the gym and see seasoned vet fail his belay test because he uses the palms up belay method. damn nubs these days
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ja1484
Nov 28, 2007, 3:14 PM
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Carnage wrote: i hear stuff like this, then i go to the gym and see seasoned vet fail his belay test because he uses the palms up belay method. damn nubs these days
Pretty much. Gyms are for rainy days, and that's about it.
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lena_chita
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Nov 28, 2007, 4:58 PM
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skiclimb wrote: gonna be hell when one of those noobs threads it backwars and dosn't have a brake hand on the line.. oh well darwin was right.
But I bet you they don't EVER have to thread it -- it is already pre-theaded and anchored to the floor with a daisy, clipping to harness optional.
I don't know that it is dangerous per se as a gym set-up, but why a gym would teach such a method that clearly does not translate well to outdoors application is beyond me.
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meanandugly
Nov 28, 2007, 5:14 PM
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Gyms are like a go-cart track, you don't learn how to drive in the real world and in gyms you don't learn how to climb on real rock.
It is unfortunate, but it is a business that is there to make money and you do that with volume. This makes it difficult to spend lots of time on a few people. So, you have to keep it simple for the masses. But I must agree this sucks when an expreienced climber goes to a gym and demonstrates a proper belay technique and fails.
Should an individual wish to take this craft to the next level it is their responsible to seek proper instruction.
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taydude
Nov 28, 2007, 5:55 PM
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This is how I teach at the gym I work at. I'm free to teach how I like as we are not a commecial gym nore is a fall very dangerous as we have 20ft ceilings and good padding. My gym has the gri gris "permanently" anchored to the ground so the customers would never have to worry about the gri gri being threaded backwards. Also none of our customers would ever be in an outdoor situation as we're at least 9hrs away from any roped climbing.
I use the over the shoulder method because it is the easiest way to stop idiots from pulling on the wrong rope.
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reg
Nov 28, 2007, 6:29 PM
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taydude wrote: My gym has the gri gris "permanently" anchored to the ground so the customers would never have to worry about the gri gri being threaded backwards.
never say never
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zuegma
Nov 28, 2007, 6:32 PM
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Wow, i dont even know what to say to that method.
Although like everyone else i have seen a gri-gri being used improperly. for example, i wont give a location but i remember that at one place they didnt even take the rope out of hte device, they just walked backwards as a way of taking out the slack, and yup to lower someone they walked forward. i didn't know what to say to that either except i'm not climbing on it.
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capn_nobeard
Nov 28, 2007, 6:37 PM
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taydude wrote: This is how I teach at the gym I work at. I'm free to teach how I like as we are not a commecial gym nore is a fall very dangerous as we have 20ft ceilings and good padding. My gym has the gri gris "permanently" anchored to the ground so the customers would never have to worry about the gri gri being threaded backwards. Also none of our customers would ever be in an outdoor situation as we're at least 9hrs away from any roped climbing. I use the over the shoulder method because it is the easiest way to stop idiots from pulling on the wrong rope.
Just because its easy to teach, does not necessarily make something safe. Proper supervision of groups and consistent use of correct technique should always be paramount.
I work as both a climbing instructor, as well as a commercial window washer, and my experience with your so called 'idiots' who can't be trusted to pull the right rope is that some, not all, do eventually come into contact with ropes again.
A guy I worked with window washing, whom learned to rappel, in a non commercial, recreation environment, used his extensive experience with rope to attain his job. Taught using incorrect, but easy techniques leads to hazards, and this guy was just that.
He is no longer welcome at his former place of business.
Furthermore I've been on crutches from an awkward fall from significantly less than 20ft, onto decent padding. The shortsightedness of the situation is astounding.
Until you can adequately understand the difference between perceived risk, and actual risk perhaps teaching may not be for you.
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Jbitz
Nov 28, 2007, 6:45 PM
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I'm a little confused and I'm not even sure I want to know.
So, you have the Gri Gri anchored and you take the brake strand over your shoulder? Where is the Gri Gri in relation to where you stand and the climbing wall and how do you even lock off the belay device properly?
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drfelatio
Nov 28, 2007, 6:53 PM
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taydude wrote: I use the over the shoulder method because it is the easiest way to stop idiots from pulling on the wrong rope.
So your solution to idiotic behavior is to teach them an incorrect belay technique?
That's idiotic.
Way to contribute to the problem and not the solution, asshat.
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itstoearly
Nov 28, 2007, 7:00 PM
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Just remember, the more "idiot proof" a method is, the more idiots you will have doing it.
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taydude
Nov 28, 2007, 7:16 PM
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Jbitz wrote: I'm a little confused and I'm not even sure I want to know. So, you have the Gri Gri anchored and you take the brake strand over your shoulder? Where is the Gri Gri in relation to where you stand and the climbing wall and how do you even lock off the belay device properly?
each gri gri is anchored to two points on the floor roughly 5 feet away from the wall. We have the belayer simply pull slack through the gri gri. The over the shoulder method is used because one of the most common mistakes the management has noticed is customers getting confused and pulling downward on the section of rope going to the ceiling. Obviously that would cause a ground fall so we try to worry about that over teaching the customers how to arrest a fall if the gri gri is threaded wrong. We anchor the gri gri with a screw lock biner that is taped over so it is not modified.
Sorry if my gym can't afford the pay people to give lengthy, expensive lessons to customers that just want to go have fun for a couple hours.
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 28, 2007, 7:39 PM
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taydude wrote: Jbitz wrote: I'm a little confused and I'm not even sure I want to know. So, you have the Gri Gri anchored and you take the brake strand over your shoulder? Where is the Gri Gri in relation to where you stand and the climbing wall and how do you even lock off the belay device properly? each gri gri is anchored to two points on the floor roughly 5 feet away from the wall. We have the belayer simply pull slack through the gri gri. The over the shoulder method is used because one of the most common mistakes the management has noticed is customers getting confused and pulling downward on the section of rope going to the ceiling. Obviously that would cause a ground fall so we try to worry about that over teaching the customers how to arrest a fall if the gri gri is threaded wrong. We anchor the gri gri with a screw lock biner that is taped over so it is not modified. Sorry if my gym can't afford the pay people to give lengthy, expensive lessons to customers that just want to go have fun for a couple hours.
If you can't take the time to teach correctly, then you shouldn't be in business. Second, how is it that you are 9 hours from climbing. THe Adirondacks and the Gunks can't be that far away.
Josh
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drfelatio
Nov 28, 2007, 7:45 PM
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taydude wrote: each gri gri is anchored to two points on the floor roughly 5 feet away from the wall. We have the belayer simply pull slack through the gri gri. The over the shoulder method is used because one of the most common mistakes the management has noticed is customers getting confused and pulling downward on the section of rope going to the ceiling. Obviously that would cause a ground fall so we try to worry about that over teaching the customers how to arrest a fall if the gri gri is threaded wrong. We anchor the gri gri with a screw lock biner that is taped over so it is not modified. Sorry if my gym can't afford the pay people to give lengthy, expensive lessons to customers that just want to go have fun for a couple hours.
1) There's nothing wrong with pulling down on the climber strand. The important part is pulling the resulting slack through the gri-gri.
2) Tape over the screwgate?!? And that's supposed to keep people from messing with them? Do yourselves a favor and go buy some beefy steel quciklinks and wrench 'em shut good and tight.
3) This "over the shoulder" BS attempts to fix a symptom but not its underlying problem. If you'd teach people proper belay technique and the importance thereof you wouldn't need to use this ridiculous "technique."
4) Your gym's priorities are all jacked up. Saving a little bit of money at the expense of proper instruction. You guys should just close up shop now and stick to activities that don't involve people's safety.
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primus
Nov 28, 2007, 7:51 PM
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taydude wrote: Sorry if my gym can't afford the pay people to give lengthy, expensive lessons to customers that just want to go have fun for a couple hours.
As far as I'm concerned, if you can't afford to pay people to teach safe belay technique, you shouldn't be running a climbing gym. And your argument that it's ok to teach a sub-standard belay technique because none of your customers will ever see real rock is inane. Can you really guarantee that statement?
Edited to add:
Have you looked into these: http://www.eldowalls.com/auto_belays.htm? I know they're spendy, but they may be an option.
(This post was edited by primus on Nov 28, 2007, 7:56 PM)
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scotchie
Nov 28, 2007, 8:09 PM
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primus wrote: taydude wrote: Sorry if my gym can't afford the pay people to give lengthy, expensive lessons to customers that just want to go have fun for a couple hours. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't afford to pay people to teach safe belay technique, you shouldn't be running a climbing gym. And your argument that it's ok to teach a sub-standard belay technique because none of your customers will ever see real rock is inane. Can you really guarantee that statement? Edited to add: Have you looked into these: http://www.eldowalls.com/auto_belays.htm? I know they're spendy, but they may be an option.
Agreed with that! If you don't teach folks how to do it properly, one way or another, you're going to end up with an accident.
I know that gyms make people sign waivers agreeing that they're not learning outdoor climbing safety. But one way or another, you could still end up with a lawsuit coming back at you, one way or another.
Finally, it's important to make a point of always giving a impromptu "belay test" to any noob-ish seeming new partners, to ensure your own safety. It could be as simple as just watching them belay someone else, or keeping an eye on them from above when climbing a route you could solo. If they're following some idiodic gym-taught psuedo-belay methods, then retrain them.
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vegastradguy
Nov 28, 2007, 8:25 PM
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taydude wrote: The over the shoulder method is used because one of the most common mistakes the management has noticed is customers getting confused and pulling downward on the section of rope going to the ceiling.
actually, the mistake would be not pulling the slack through the grigri. pulling the climber side of the rope downward is part of proper belay technique for TR'ing. that the 'management' doesnt realize the difference is disconcerting at the least.
In reply to: Sorry if my gym can't afford the pay people to give lengthy, expensive lessons to customers that just want to go have fun for a couple hours.
belaying is literally taking someone's life into your hands and should be treated as such. how much is a person's life worth?
more to the point, how expensive can a 10 minute lesson by a $7.00/hr gym employee be? let's see...$7.00 divided by 6 is...about a $1.17! holy shit, yeah, i can see why you wouldnt want to spend that kind of money insuring that people stay alive and safe!
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Toerag
Nov 28, 2007, 8:27 PM
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each gri gri is anchored to the floor!!?? you know I find this very hard to picture. i think our indoor climbing is very different from yours, same bits of plastic on plywood but it's mostly leading and the belaying is the same as at the crag. I think the system under discussion is weird.
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coastal_climber
Nov 28, 2007, 9:18 PM
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taydude wrote: Sorry if my gym can't afford the pay people to give lengthy, expensive lessons to customers that just want to go have fun for a couple hours.
You don't have to pay someone lots, they just have to know what they are doing.
>Cam
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healyje
Nov 29, 2007, 12:19 AM
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There have been no shortage of reports of folks threading grigris backwards.
Grigris are double-edged swords - on one hand they let millions climb by depending on the device in ways the manufacturer explicitly advises against and on the other hand a certain statistical percentage of folks 'belaying' with a grigri simply screw it up due to their lack of understanding of how the device works and an general lack of belaying skills.
My own theory is that someone, somewhere is being dropped about once an hour on a 24x7 basis around the world.
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