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stymingersfink
Dec 12, 2007, 3:31 AM
Post #51 of 61
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TTWEEEEEEEEEETTTT!! PTFT"ROCK CRIME"W!
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coastal_climber
Dec 12, 2007, 3:52 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: rgold wrote: I'm reminded of my high-school shop teacher, Mr. Houton. He had the bell from a locomotive in the shop. (You have no idea how loud that thing is until you've had it rung indoors.) Anyway, when anyone did something dangerous, he would ring the bell (our ears rang for five minutes afterwards), bellow SHOP CRIME!!! and gather us around the poor "criminal" for a discussion of how they were seconds away from amputating a body part. We were terrified of this guy, and we loved him. With dents in his head from high-voltage shocks and missing fingers, he had clearly come upon his expertise first-hand, and none of us every made the same mistake twice. It seems like we need a Mr. Houton for the crags, complete with the locomotive bell, bellowing ROCK CRIME!!! and gathering everyone around to hear about the latest transgression. Unfortunately, life does not work like high-school shop, and no such remedy is available. Well....I AM a gym teacher, so I have plenty of whistles. "TTWEEEEEEEEEETTTT!!, ROCK CRIME!" Yeah, I think I like that. See you at the crags! Josh I've got a buddy from France who said that they have these guides around the crags and they are paid to make sure no one that doesn't know what they are doing isn't climbing. >Cam
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shockabuku
Dec 12, 2007, 4:01 AM
Post #53 of 61
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coastal_climber wrote: I've got a buddy from France who said that they have these guides around the crags and they are paid to make sure no one that doesn't know what they are doing isn't climbing. >Cam Quoted for posterity. That is a triple negative, right? Equivalent to "no one who knows what they are doing is climbing."
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coastal_climber
Dec 12, 2007, 4:32 AM
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shockabuku wrote: coastal_climber wrote: I've got a buddy from France who said that they have these guides around the crags and they are paid to make sure no one that doesn't know what they are doing isn't climbing. >Cam Quoted for posterity. That is a triple negative, right? Equivalent to "no one who knows what they are doing is climbing." As in: "If you don't know what you're doing, you don't get to climb". >Cam
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rgold
Dec 12, 2007, 3:15 PM
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Lest my nostalgia for Mr. Houton be interpreted as an endorsement of any kind of official regulation of climbers, as with the scolding guides in France if that is accurate, let me make it clear that, in my opinion, the only thing genuinely worse than no regulation is regulation. First of all, it doesn't work. Moreover, the process is almost always hijacked by bean-counter types and self-aggrandizing turkeys out to prevent anyone from doing anything they wouldn't or can't do themselves. The Appies tried it in the Gunks and managed to retard climbing development for a while until the Vulgarians and others broke the Appie stranglehold on climbing activity. The Appie demise was sealed when their own elaborate qualification system massively disqualified itself, as a so-called "unlimited leader" lived up to his title in all the wrong ways, making practically every leadership mistake in the book, getting one of his party killed and triggering one of the biggest rescue efforts ever in the Tetons. So indulge in all the personal moral dilemmas you want about whether or not to say something to folks who seem to be screwing up, but when it comes to regulation, to quote the Beatles, you can count me out.
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TradEddie
Dec 12, 2007, 5:40 PM
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colatownkid wrote: is there some responsibility to offer assistance after the fact? suppose that the climber i mentioned had decked and fractured a couple vertebrae. should i help him out now? or, what if your canadian friend had fallen on the traverse and was left hanging as her diaphragm was slowly crushed? would it then be necessary to help her (supposing you had done nothing initially)? Yes, Yes, and It Depends. Do you really think you wouldn't try save someone's life? How much you have to risk your own is up to you. I think you have the Good Samaritan laws backwards, they generally mean you CANNOT be sued for trying to help someone injured. Although, I have heard of places that enacted laws that make it an offense to fail to help, hopefully with the protection that you cannot then be sued. TE
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k.l.k
Dec 12, 2007, 5:41 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: I've got a buddy from France who said that they have these guides around the crags and they are paid to make sure no one that doesn't know what they are doing isn't climbing. Your buddy is a troll. There may be a crag somewhere in France where that happens, but I've not seen it. Certainly it doesn't describe the situation in Chamonix or Ailefroide or Fontainebleau or any of the places I've been. In fact, one of the striking differences between the Alps and American ranges is how lightly climbing, scrambling and hiking are regulated in Europe. Hardly any of the stupid NPS-style signs, fences, and cops.
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coastal_climber
Dec 12, 2007, 7:07 PM
Post #58 of 61
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k.l.k wrote: coastal_climber wrote: I've got a buddy from France who said that they have these guides around the crags and they are paid to make sure no one that doesn't know what they are doing isn't climbing. Your buddy is a troll. There may be a crag somewhere in France where that happens, but I've not seen it. Certainly it doesn't describe the situation in Chamonix or Ailefroide or Fontainebleau or any of the places I've been. In fact, one of the striking differences between the Alps and American ranges is how lightly climbing, scrambling and hiking are regulated in Europe. Hardly any of the stupid NPS-style signs, fences, and cops. I'll ask him again. >Cam
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 12, 2007, 7:10 PM
Post #59 of 61
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rgold wrote: Lest my nostalgia for Mr. Houton be interpreted as an endorsement of any kind of official regulation of climbers, as with the scolding guides in France if that is accurate, let me make it clear that, in my opinion, the only thing genuinely worse than no regulation is regulation. First of all, it doesn't work. Moreover, the process is almost always hijacked by bean-counter types and self-aggrandizing turkeys out to prevent anyone from doing anything they wouldn't or can't do themselves. The Appies tried it in the Gunks and managed to retard climbing development for a while until the Vulgarians and others broke the Appie stranglehold on climbing activity. The Appie demise was sealed when their own elaborate qualification system massively disqualified itself, as a so-called "unlimited leader" lived up to his title in all the wrong ways, making practically every leadership mistake in the book, getting one of his party killed and triggering one of the biggest rescue efforts ever in the Tetons. So indulge in all the personal moral dilemmas you want about whether or not to say something to folks who seem to be screwing up, but when it comes to regulation, to quote the Beatles, you can count me out. I think it was quite apparent that I was kidding with the whistle shenanigans. Climbers should be able to regulate themselves. I am merely advocating that we help, not control, one another. Josh
(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Dec 12, 2007, 7:11 PM)
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coastal_climber
Dec 12, 2007, 7:12 PM
Post #60 of 61
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Climbers should be able to regulate themselves. I am merely advocating that we help, not control, one another. Josh Not everyone is going to listen if you say they are doing something wrong. >Cam
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Dry_Hands
Dec 12, 2007, 8:14 PM
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caughtinside wrote: You know what's funny? You can usually spot the dangerous people well before they do anything that is actually dangerous. I never help stupid people...because a lot of times, it's a waste of breath. When I was 16 or so, we had to cross a road from school to the student parking lot. I watched with anticipation as this one girl I barely knew stood too close to the road on a particularly wet afternoon. A bus drove by and completely covered her in dirty, salty, wet road slush. If she were at all attractive, I would have stepped in. So, if you're ugly and stupid, be extra careful. I won't help you.
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