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stymingersfink
Dec 11, 2007, 12:30 AM
Post #26 of 33
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paintrain wrote: Yeah. I was with you all along. He is wrong in his assertion about no crossovers. I just agree with him about doubles being the best value. PT
Understanding the differences in testing requirements to certify ropes as "twins" or "doubles" is an important aspect of deciding to purchase such a rope certified for both or either applications. Keeping the results of those tests in mind when clipping protection in a "do or die" situation is, IMHO, an important aspect of deciding to utilize the ropes in their different configuration possibilities. Whether "most people" keep these differences in mind, I've no idea, but for straight-up ice climbing, when you're looking at potentially wandering routes and the need to make full 60m raps, doubles are really the only realistic option.
Especially when one takes into consideration the tendency and probability of ice climbs to change their nature rapidly over the course of climbing a single pitch (When the quality of the ice is in flux, more frequent protection with less potential for that protection to be exposed to high impact forces can sometimes be all the peace of mind you'll get other than not falling.) I have in the past, while climbing sketchyrun-out ice with the occasional piece of rock gear, clipped two slings to a bomber piece of rock pro, then clipped my doubles to it. Less than ideal? perhaps. better than the other option? maybe. Field-tested? thank god, no.
There have been times too where the last good piece of ice for the foreseeable future gets two screws non-adjacent to one another, then clipped to their respective ropes. This setup I would tend to trust a little more, but again, thankfully not field tested.
Now, after reading through the remainder of the thread, I'm curious just how much time on the ICE people (who feel qualified to make recommendations for ropes intended for ice climbing) have had. Someone got called out, but I must have missed the answer.
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ja1484
Dec 11, 2007, 1:15 AM
Post #27 of 33
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justinboening wrote: I think you might be missing something, here. I don't think anybody's saying twin-ropes are better than half-ropes. I think the issue, at least for me, is that a half-rope is more easily cut than a single rope, so when you're in a situation where your half-rope could be loaded over an edge in the event of a fall, it's nice to be able to use your ropes as twin-ropes to increase the cut-resistance of your total rope system, even if it's only just for one piece on a pitch. Also, if you go by the numbers that Beal projects on the sight you directed us to, if clipped as twins, the Beal ice line would still have an impact force of less than 8kn in the UIAA test fall. Granted, those ropes are pretty exceptional, but I point it out to show how much variability there is, here.
The only time people should even be thinking about rope cuts is if there are sharp edges of noticable prominence interacting with the rope.
Any other time, rope cutting shouldn't even be a concern. It's a waste of time to think about it, and a waste of effort to plan for it.
Some might argue that if you're climbing at an area known for sharp rock, you should plan for it. Not really. You should just climb somewhere else. Some might say "what about the boldness?", look either have the rope there for a reason or don't - Russian roulette is a half-assed puss cop out.
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kmc
Dec 11, 2007, 3:54 AM
Post #28 of 33
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Registered: May 24, 2006
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Thank you everyone for your opinions. Sorry the question caused such a debate. I was orginally planning on going with a set of double ropes, and seems like everyone agrees with that. I do have a set of doubles that I use for rock climbing, so I'm well aware of the advantages of doubles(unfortunatly they are not dry treated ropes), therefore Im planning on getting a new set for the ice season. I personally have never used, or really seen anyone use twin ropes, so I was wondering others opinions. But it sounds that most agree that doubles are indeed the way to go.
Thanks again.
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justinboening
Dec 11, 2007, 6:40 AM
Post #29 of 33
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fingers,
It seems as though you and I are basically in the same camp. Both of us have championed the use of half-ropes for ice climbing since the beginning and for similar reasons. It was unclear to me as to whether you understood that there are ropes that are certified for use with both techniques, as is implied by my posts. I can also sympathize with your general suspicion of the people that post around here. I can assure you, however, that I have the experience necessary to have a well informed opinion in these ridiculous matters. I've been climbing ice for 12 years. I live in Montana, one of the last places in the lower 48 where you can always count on adventure. But I'm not going to give you a resume. Frankly, it's beneath anyone to be lured into such unabashed chest thumping. Have a good season.
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angry
Dec 11, 2007, 6:53 AM
Post #30 of 33
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Registered: Jul 22, 2003
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I think a lot of the arguement stems from people not fully understanding the question.
Do I think twins are the far superior choice on long rock routes? Yes, for my choice of relatively straight long routes a half is just a clusterfuck.
Do I think halfs are the better choice on ice? Yep, minimize impact force as much as possible.
Did I read the question fully and keep my yap shut because I knew we were talking about ice? Yes I did, until this post.
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stymingersfink
Dec 11, 2007, 1:52 PM
Post #31 of 33
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i admire your self control there angry. I wish I had it sometimes.
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justinboening
Dec 11, 2007, 1:58 PM
Post #32 of 33
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Registered: Nov 1, 2006
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No Angry,
The problem with this thread is the first response was written so unclearly (and it was subsequently interpreted to mean various things) that some of us started responding to completely different ideas without noticing it. You see, when whoever said "most do," I assumed they were using "more" to refer to half-ropes, which would have been a close to true statement. Fingers thought "most" refereed to people, which would have far from true. If the post was written more clearly (ie "most people do," or "most ropes are") there wouldn't have been a problem.
(This post was edited by justinboening on Dec 11, 2007, 5:18 PM)
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paintrain
Dec 11, 2007, 5:12 PM
Post #33 of 33
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Registered: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 184
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I get about 12-15 days of ice in on average a year. Depends on the ski conditions. I have been doing it for about 15 years. Been rock climbing and alpine climbing for 20 (about 100 days a year, give or take 20). I have climbed in Europe, S. America, Asia, N America, blah blah blah. I am no climbing tough guy, but I have some mileage under my belt and understand the gear and applications.
Do I rate??
It doesn't have a ton of bearing when arguing over load factors and the nuts and bolts of utility. Though, from experience, doubles mean double the work belaying and rope management, but there are some definite advantages.
I use doubles when the conditions/terrain merit it - especially if there is any adventure involved and route finding is a question mark. I haven't used twins at all, I see when they could be applied, but it seems pretty limited, so out of the 20-30 ropes I have owned, I never bothered with twins. Mostly I single line it when ice cragging, but whip out the doubles when I start stacking pitches or head to the tetons.
I agree with your choice of ropes and your reasoning. I just don't agree with your absolutist tone when you responded. I will admit I don't scour every post and read every statement, I don't have the time or patience. Its just the temperament and keeping an open minded tone for the OP.
I'll see ya out there. Its getting cold again, so it should be thickening back up. Provo was way melty on Saturday - I was all by myself for most of the morning.
PT
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