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lobito
Oct 17, 2002, 9:08 PM
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For about two months I got this urge to start leading ..., only that due to different reasons all my attepmts to go with an experienced leader have failed (bad weather, car broke, lack of coordination, etc.) So now I'm inclined to take my regular TR partner and head to the Gunks for my first lead. Is that crazy?
I have followed several multi-pitch routes so I know about gear placement, building anchors, etc. I usually TR 5.6-5.7, though I could climb a couple of 5.8's. I'm expecting my first lead to be something v. easy (5.2-5.3). As protection I'm thinking about 1 set of nuts/hexes/tri-cams. Any thoughts?
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rushjunkie11
Oct 17, 2002, 9:14 PM
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i'm sure alot of people will dissagree with me, but if you are confident in your abilities i say go for it (on an easy climb, as you said). I wouldn't go up a multipitch route yet, though.
That is exactly how my first lead went, me and a climber who i had taught to toprope. I know it was dumb, but i learned alot.
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mike
Oct 17, 2002, 9:23 PM
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My vote is no. Your top rope buddy, has he ever belayed a lead or just top rope? Wait until you have an experienced eye watching you up that route.
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dsafanda
Oct 17, 2002, 9:26 PM
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That's how I learned 10 years ago. I'm stil alive.
In fact you already have more experience than I did at the time. I ended up leading every pitch of my first multi pitch climb.
Climb safe but go for it. It is a very rewarding experience to walk up to a cliff with no one to help guide you, say "I'm going to climb that" and then do it. The strength you gain from that experience will be with you for the rest of your climbing career.
[ This Message was edited by: dsafanda on 2002-10-17 14:29 ]
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geezergecko
Oct 17, 2002, 9:33 PM
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Take along 2 buddies and 2 ropes and try leading with a top rope backup. Think trainer wheels. One buddy lead belays and the other does the top rope like a catcher in the rye. You can then make all the mistakes and not pay so dearly for them.
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vikasshah
Oct 17, 2002, 9:37 PM
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I just did my first couple of trad leads at the Gunks. I went with a very experienced partner, and this made a HUGE difference - not necessarily in terms of actually changing what I did, but reinforcing the correct things to do and having questions answered about a hundred different "subtle" issues that arise only once you get on the rock. Things to keep in mind:
Understand that belaying a trad leader is different from belaying a sport leader is different from belaying on toprope.
The importance of a multidirectional, multi-nut anchor can't be stressed enough. Also the message posted all over the Gunks not to trust fixed gear, and to always back it up when you find it.
I had a fairly thorough understanding of what I needed to do at the belay stations to set up the multidirectional anchor, equalize it, belay up my second, switch over (when slingshot leading) or reflake the rope (when the same person is leading again), and continue up the next pitch. I also read and reread How to Rock Climb and Climbing Anchors (both by John Long) a number of times before attempting these trad leads.
I led Beginner's Delight (5.3) and Gelsa (5.4) out at the Gunks. Both were incredibly fun, incredibly exposed climbs. They were fairly easy, and I would definitely recommend Beginner's Delight as a first trad lead. But also keep in mind that (and not only did I notice this, but I've been told this by many other people as well) Gunks rating are sandbagged as hell.
The rack and gear we brought:
* Set of 8 Rock Empire Robot Cams (great deal, worked awesome - $200, and I am very happy with them).
* 2 HB Cams (red and orange - medium size).
* Set of 10 BlueWater CocoNuts.
* Couple of extra medium to large nuts bought used.
* 2 x 0.5 (pink), 2 x 1 (red), 1 x 1.5 (brown) tricams - these were incredibly useful at the Gunks.
* 8 quickdraws (easily disassembled for biners if needed)
* 8 single length slings, 2 double length slings with a biner on each - to minimize rope drag - if you're not familiar with this concept you should be before you head out.
* cordelette (18 ft x 7mm cord tied in a circle with triple fisherman's) - to speed equalizing of the anchors. If you're not familiar with this concept, again, read more before heading out.
* 4 or 5 lockers
* cord for a prusik
* daisy chain
* 60m dynamic rope, harnesses, shoes, chalk
Anyway, good luck and safe climbing!
[ This Message was edited by: vikasshah on 2002-10-17 14:43 ]
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mountainmonkey
Oct 17, 2002, 9:49 PM
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It is not crazy it is not a wise idea, in my opinion.
The advantage of having an experienced person with you is that they can give you feedback on you gear placements, anchors, and other technicalities that come up when leading. Without having good feedback, you can go on thinking you are doing the right thing till an accident teaches you otherwise.
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estwing
Oct 17, 2002, 9:50 PM
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I must say that it is not a great idea. Having said this it is exactly what I did just last week. You must be aware that your gear will not likely be that great, and that you should apply the old rule of " The leader must not fall!!" Only climb stuff that you would be willing to free solo, treat your gear as no more than psychological protection.
Other than that, have fun.
Sam
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lostangel
Oct 17, 2002, 10:02 PM
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You shouldnt do it hun.. I just learned how to lead.. and the thing about it is your not only risking your life.. but the life of your TR partner..
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holmeslovesguinness
Oct 17, 2002, 10:06 PM
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I'd say you are probably ready to take the plunge, assuming that:
a) you feel confident in your ability to properly place trad gear, and
b) you are climbing something well within your abilities, preferably something you have climbed before, and
c) you have the proper gear to safely protect your chosen route, and
d) you trust your second to be able to catch a lead fall
If the answer to all those questions is yes, then go out and kick ass dude.
[ This Message was edited by: holmeslovesguinness on 2002-10-17 15:07 ]
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fo_d
Oct 17, 2002, 10:25 PM
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I'll stick my neck out on the chopping block, I am pretty much teaching myself to lead trad, I'm still at a very low level (5.7 or less). I do get a chance every once in a while to watch or follow an experianced leader and I ask a lot of questions.
Some things you'll want to do or consider:
Practice setting pro and weighting it at ground level, abuse your placements and see how they hold up in a safe place.
You already have part of it right, starting on low 5th class (5.2-5.4).
At least try to hook up even if not to climb with an experianced leader and ask all those questions.
(Some traddies will cringe at this one) Lead some easy sport routes for practice.
Lastly, I agree its not a great idea to teach yourself trad, you need to take some other things into consideration, there are too many little things you need to know that you probably wont get here, I think that people with a higher mechanical aptitude learn better placement faster and with less help.
Good luck, and be safe.
Les
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hugepedro
Oct 17, 2002, 10:26 PM
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When I started rock climbing I got into leading trad immediately, so it would be hypocritical of me to say "don't do it". But, I had years of experience mountaineering on glaciers and snow - where I learned rope, anchor, and self-rescue skills (and solid climber's judgement, I think). I found that I was able to apply my skills at rigging anchors in snow and ice to rock, I only had to learn how to place gear that was somewhat new to me. So it would also be irresponsible of me to say "go for it" because I assume that you don't have the same background I had, which I think was a crucial factor in my surviving my early leading adventures.
If you're going to do this, understand that you're taking greater risk by taking this path, and you probably don't have the experience necessary to be able to honestly assess just how much risk you're taking - in other words, you might not know what you're getting yourself into. People not knowing what they are getting themselves into is a very common ingredient in the fatal/injury accidents that you can read about in "Accidents in North American Mountaineering". Please consider this before you make your decision.
Before you take off on lead, read everything you can get your hands on, then spend considerable time with a crack at ground level practicing placing gear and building anchors. That's a much better place to learn than in mid-pitch. Finally, before you go, please try again to get an experienced climber to help you. It's seems like you've given up on that after only a few attempts. Be patient. Don't let a few inconveniences like weather and car breakdowns prevent you from doing the smart thing. After all, if you can't persevere through such minor things, how will you push through the obstacles you encounter when you attempt El Cap or Half Dome?
Good luck.
[ This Message was edited by: hugepedro on 2002-10-17 15:29 ]
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transse
Oct 17, 2002, 10:58 PM
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If you think you can do it, go for it. That is exactly how I learned. Surely people will disagree, but I also know people who have been climbing awhile and never lead a thing. Now that is lame. Anyway, be careful and have fun....
Jake
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climbsomething
Oct 17, 2002, 11:32 PM
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When I read the title on the FP, I thought you were going to ask if you should jump into soloing! (don't bite, soloists, I just think what y'alls do is scary! )
But, after reading through, I think you have the right idea. I do not lead trad myself, so I can't give you any pointers there. But I do like your enthusiasm. Sounds like you've actually got a pretty reasonable idea worked out. Go easy, don't get in over your head. Be safe and let us know how you did! Learning to lead trad in the Gunks... sounds sweet
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gorgeclimber
Oct 18, 2002, 12:05 AM
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I don't think this question can be answered electronically--only your lead climbing partner can tell you if you're ready. Your mental focus & mental state is more important than your climbing ability, and no one on this forum can judge that.
I'm new to climbing, and on TR am climbing in the 5.10a/b area. I just started leading trad in the 5.6-5.8 range, and it is a whole new sport.
I'm not trying to dissuade you, in fact, leading has done more for my climbing ability, particularly the mental aspects, than any TR experience could have done.
In terms of the rack, it TOTALLY depends on what climbs you're doing. I bought a pretty full rack, given that I go to Smith, Joshua Tree, and a number of areas in the Gorge. It includes:
double set of cams size 00 through 3"
single set of cams in 3.5"-5"
double set of bd stoppers
12 quickdraws
biners, locking biners, slings, daisy's, etc.
One last point--when I clean my slings from the fixed anchors, I rappel down using an ATC. I'm always nervous about dropping the ATC--carry a spare.
Gordon
[ This Message was edited by: gorgeclimber on 2002-10-17 17:07 ]
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petsfed
Oct 18, 2002, 12:12 AM
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I'm still learning, but most of what I know was self taught. And I do earnestly wish that I had an experienced mentor to help me out. I tend to get easily tweaked, so having a level headed partner is always a good thing.
Other advice
-Don't do anything harder than the weaker of the two of you is willing to lead as s/he may have to bail your butt out, or vice versa.
-Learn basic rescue techniques and knots (eg prusik and how to operate it, and tying off and seperating yourself from the belay)and be able to do them in the dark. These don't take long to learn, but it is absolutely vital you know them. Anyone who doesn't know those two (at least) is (imo) being irresponsible. If nothing else, remember its hard to keep a person locked off the whole time if it takes properly trained rescuers to arrive.
-Keep an eye for details. Crossed webbing, less than sexy figure-8 tie-ins(nice and smooth and as small as possible without being weighted), not listening to your partner's safety concerns are all important to avoid.
-Have fun. If this scares the crap out of you the first time, you might not be back, and it looks like you want to be fairly comitted. Just remember, its a lot easier to say no to someone who's alive than sorry to someone who isn't.
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slcliffdiver
Oct 18, 2002, 1:12 AM
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One thing about the gunks. There are some very "easy" routes that are a bit pumpy on lead never the less. If you aren't effecient placing pro you may end up over you head even on some easy routes if you aren't strong or don't have good endurance. If you go choose your route wisely.
For my money one important thing about going with someone experienced for your first several leads is they hopefully can choose appropriate routes (considerations besides just the grade).
Peace
David
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jt512
Oct 18, 2002, 1:30 AM
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Quote:I have followed several multi-pitch routes so I know about gear placement, building anchors, etc. I usually TR 5.6-5.7, though I could climb a couple of 5.8's. I'm expecting my first lead to be something v. easy (5.2-5.3). As protection I'm thinking about 1 set of nuts/hexes/tri-cams. Any thoughts?
Yeah, you're not ready to lead trad yet, especially at the Gunks.
You can't learn enough about placing gear, building anchors, rappelling, route finding, self-rescue, and whatever else I can't think of off the top of my head, by following a few multipitch climbs. Go take a lead course; read everything ever written on leading; practice placing gear at ground level; have your placements critiqued by an expert climber; jump on the placements to learn what holds and what doesn't; and practice building bomber, equalized anchors, and have them critiqued as well.
Then, go lead something ridiculously easy, and build up gradually to harder climbs.
-Jay
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tanner
Oct 18, 2002, 2:38 AM
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I don't think going out and teaching your self how to trad lead is crazy(you have sport lead before right?) Practice setting gear on the ground first. Then find somthing stupidly easy and try to place every peace of gear on you rack.
The reason being
1.its safer
2.you will get more pracactice placing pro
3. you will get the fealing of clinging on to the rock and playing with gear.
4. it will force you to look more for diffrent types of placments and you will get to know your rack better.
-Pick a climb you could comfortable solo.
-Try placing gear on sport climbs.
-get your self TR climbing at a higher grade I.e 5.10 you will be way more comfortable with the rock.
-You don't wan't to be thinking about climbing!- So pick a climb you don't have to.
Start by trad walking 5.1 5.2
"I tought my self to trad lead and I was fine"-myself
Stupid thing to say. I got alot of help from experianced climbers and read alot in books. I started placing gear on the ground and then lead climbs That I would solo.
I think I leaned responsable
[ This Message was edited by: tanner on 2002-10-18 11:50 ]
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jt512
Oct 18, 2002, 3:10 AM
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Quote:I tought I my self to trad lead and I was fine.
Am I the only person in the world who understands the fallacy of this line of reasoning?
-Jay
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geezergecko
Oct 18, 2002, 1:30 PM
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It sounds like "I stood under a tree during a lightning storm and i was fine" reasoning.
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fishypete
Oct 18, 2002, 1:52 PM
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I got ya back there jt512!
This thread is the biggest DEATH TRAP I have come across in a long time.
It is exactly this kind of post which fuels the detractors of RC.com - lots in inexperienced people giving shallow advice.
Yes, many people have taught themselves. Yes, many of them are still alive.
Not surprisingly, you wont be hearing from the ones who got it WRONG!!!
There is a huge number of ways in which little mistakes can really damage you in this sport.
IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO LEARN THEM!
And that is assuming that you even notice the potential dangers as they present themselves.
Take it slow, and make sure that you always seek out a range of experienced people to point out the dangers (and tricks!) inherent in this sport.
Climb Safe!
Fishy.
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jman
Oct 18, 2002, 2:44 PM
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I have to whole hearterly agree with jt512 and fishy.
If people are trying to convince a beginner climber, who has never lead climbed before or who has not been taught or shown how to place gear or build an anchor, to go out and trad lead, it sounds pretty foolish to me. I know everyone who does lead needs to start somewhere, but it seems to me the wise thing would be to be shown or taught by an experienced leader.
Climb on, be safe.
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coreyr
Oct 18, 2002, 3:29 PM
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If your asking people on the internet if your crazy to start leading and for any thoughts. You definately are not ready!!! Leading is'nt crazy if the climber is knowledgable and confident in what he is doing. Corey
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jamison
Oct 18, 2002, 3:44 PM
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I agree with JT and fishy as well. But my points would be these...
I started leading when I could only climb 5.8s. My first was a 5.7 trad. However, I don't recommend it. the climb was successful, but it was stupid. After reading about accidents that happen to experienced climbers, it has become clear to me that it is far too easy to make a mistake.
Furthermore. You stated that you can toprope a 5.8, but don't normally. I think that it is important that on what ever route you learn to lead trad, you should be completely conifident that you will not fall. It would be a bummer if you fell and all your gear popped. It is possible!! A mistake could be made by you or your belayer and the whole thing could zipper or any number of other bad things could happen.
Climb more. Become better. Lead sport first. Find someone experienced to teach you.
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