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fresh
Mar 25, 2008, 11:05 PM
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I'm looking to buy my first ice tools. My goals include to climb tough and miserable alpine routes. What I know of alpine climbing is limited, but I gleaned a few essentials on tools from mark twight's extreme alpinism.
1. light is right
2. small grip is.. ripe?
3. pick changeability is a must.
based on this, I really like the petzl aztarex. it's b-rated, though, and I don't know if it will accept a 4mm pick. Everything else about it I like--the weight, and the size of the shaft, primarily.
Also, seeing as these will be my first tools, I will be doing mucho waterfall climbing before venturing onto the eigers of the world. So perhaps it will be better to get tools more suited to that, like quarks. However I'm not interested in buying any tools that I can't take on light, fast, miserable trips, and quarks seem to be too heavy for serious alpine adventures. though perhaps I am mistaken! this is why I'm posting. hit me with it.
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Alpine07
Mar 25, 2008, 11:28 PM
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The Aztarex is a pretty nice tool, but I think that it will end up holding you back while on vertical stuff. Seems like the hands would get pretty tired without any kind of grip on the shaft, even though it does have the "leashless fang. BD Cobra is where its at. With they carbon fiber shaft, its nice and light. You could also look at the Camp Alpax, which is an all around sort of tool that will work well on ice and snow. I would suggest getting out on the ice with some friends that have tools, try out as many different ones as possible, then decide what you want. And also, I wouldnt worry too much about the weight, unless its real heavy, I would rather carry a little extra than have a tool that I dont like. Good Luck!
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Crimsonghost
Mar 26, 2008, 10:19 AM
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Extreme alpinism is an awesome book, but some of the information on equipment is a bit dated. The Aztarex is pretty nice, but also look at the Grivel Matrix Light. I've got a set of these and they're awesome - I've got sliders on them so I can use them leashless with a lanyard system. They work perfectly for alpine climbs where weight is an issue, although I use Taakoons for ice and mixed climbing as they are a bit beefier.
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robbovius
Mar 26, 2008, 12:24 PM
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Alpine07 wrote: You could also look at the Camp Alpax, which is an all around sort of tool that will work well on ice and snow. !
I bought my first tools recently too, and chose the CAMP Alpax becasue it looked like a good tool for both alpine and vertical ice. I got one with a hammer, (which has a reverse-curved pick) and one with an Adze (with a more tradionally curved pick though more agressively pointed than a traditional piolet alpine axe) both have 57 cm handles
yesterday I took them out for the first time and was able to get good sticks with both, as long as I swung them hard enough. if anything, they are lighter than optimal for easy single swing sticks. I did hang from them at one point though - totally feet off - from the hacked up column to the left of the "window". they come with nice leashes that have an easy-to-use elactic tightening setup. the leashes on mine were adjusted correctly from the factory.
the leashes slide up the handle pretty easily when you switch to "cane" mode (which I did when walking up to the bottoms of some of the climbs)
Even better, they were $80 each from backcountry.com.
they will definitely climb vert, and get good sticks with the proper effort. I wouldnt get shorter handles though, since the heads are so light. for a given head weight, a longer handle accelerates the head more thru the arc of the swing, making for a harder hit.
I foudn my best sticks happened with a good hard swing, ending with a slight downaward pull just as the pick hit the ice..
if I was to make the purchase again, I'd probably buy two Alpax hammers just for the re-curved pick. sometimes the adze pick was hard to get back out.
both picks hook features nicely.
the bend in the shaft isn't quite enough to keep you from punching the ice on most swings.
I've also got a traditional Piolet (an SMC Himalayan) that I got off ebay, which I used for the alipine-y hike in, and the glissade out.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Mar 26, 2008, 12:33 PM)
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wormly81
Mar 26, 2008, 1:35 PM
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I climbed with the Aztar's for my first 100 pitches of water ice here in northeast. It was not until I started leading vertical ice that I changed over to a pair of quarks. The Aztar's are lighter quarks and mine did not have the pinky rest (I was never able to set up the leashes to feel/work good). Since they are lighter the pick has more tendency to deflect when you are on hard (as opposed to soft) ice and you are tired and swinging less accurately. When I moved over to the quarks they came with leashes that I used for a single pitch and have been climbing leashless since. If I were to go alpine climbing I would go with my Aztar's rather than the quarks with leashes due to the simplicity of the leash. Also, the performance tradeoff is really not all too significant compared to the weight savings.
Best advice, troll the net for someone with a pair of axes your thinkin of buying and go test them out on some ice. You cant really be informed about an axe until you swing it.
Best,
Jeff
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robbovius
Mar 26, 2008, 1:53 PM
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wormly81 wrote: Since they are lighter the pick has more tendency to deflect when you are on hard (as opposed to soft) ice and you are tired and swinging less accurately. Best, Jeff
yup, that was exactly my experience with the Alpaxes yesterday...
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crackers
Mar 26, 2008, 3:27 PM
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wormly81 wrote: Best advice, troll the net for someone with a pair of axes your thinkin of buying and go test them out on some ice. You cant really be informed about an axe until you swing it.
I couldn't agree more. I barely get out these days, but on my day out this year, I swung Matrix Techs. Even though I'd had them around the shop for a long time, I couldn't believe how well they swung.
One other thing to think about, just to make it more confusing, is that older Grivel picks seemed to be designed so their picks to bend before they break. BD and Petzl seem to be after the picks breaking before they bend. A lot of folks I know go through a pick or two a season with older Grivel tools climbing a lot. I think the jury is still out with the new Grivel Monster picks, they seem a lot more resilient...
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builttospill
Mar 29, 2008, 2:07 AM
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I don't understand why people rule out tools like the Quarks for alpine stuff. I plunge mine in snow all the time and they work great. Hell, they plunge a little better than my old straight shaft Chouinard tools even with the pinky rest.
You can always do what Steve House and Vince Anderson did on Nanga Parbat (and others before and since probably) and use something like the grivel tools with the slider to allow plunging.
But honestly, when I climb alpine ice or even steep hard snow, I take the quarks. My vote would be for something similar to that, or maybe slightly less aggressively curved. Why use subpar tools for climbing waterfall ice when you'll end up wanting better tools for the tough and miserable alpine routes you aspire to anyway?
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mtnkid85
Apr 1, 2008, 12:18 AM
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I am looking for a set of tools for similiar purpose. Ultimatly alpine tools but learning on waterfall ice. So I will add to this thread rather than starting another. I too really like the Aztarex but from what I have been reading its main disadvantage is on hard/steep ice because of its weight, or lack there of. Correct?
And someone in this thread also mentioned the lack of a grip.
After looking at the tool it would not be difficult for me to build a small metal weight that could be clamped onto the shaft near the head to increase its weight slightly for harder/steep ice, but still be easily removed to regain the light weight for Alpine duty. Do you guys think this would remedy the Aztarexs lack of steep ice prowness? Or would it simply mess up the feel of the tool?
As for the lack of a grip why not simply add a few wraps of roadbike grip tape to the shaft?
thanks guys.
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gargrantuan
Apr 1, 2008, 2:46 AM
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this topic has really been done to death on here, so if you are really interested in hearing people's opinions just search for some of the old threads.
-aztars/aztarex are pretty much a women's/very small man's tool for anything fun in the alpine or WI. they lack overall weight and head weight so getting a good, solid stick in hard, old, alpine ice isn't easy or as satisfying (in my experience). they aren't too good on steep ice, though to be fair, my gf loves them so much that i don't get to play with them very much. furthermore, if you've not climbed with a tool and you're already thinking of mod-ing it, then it isn't the right tool for you.
-quarks, vipers, cobras, grivels and most other WI tools are fine for about 95% of the alpine climbing you (or most of us) will be doing. the pommels, pinky guards, fangs et al. do not prevent the tool from plunging and if it is, then chances are you can swing the tool and use it properly.
-the old model of cobra (without the fang) should be available used for cheap, locally or online, as they are almost a year out of production. they'll serve you better than a pair of cheap "alpine" tools will. the extra weight means more 'thunk' which is better on both WI and AI.
-save yourself the headache of needing to buy new tools after one season because you didn't buy decent ones to start with.
(This post was edited by gargrantuan on Apr 1, 2008, 2:50 AM)
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tradklime
Apr 1, 2008, 7:12 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/gear/Detailed/1382.html
Perfect for what you are interested in.
The modern clearance shafts are a serious compromise for alpine applications. By moving the bend lower on the shaft you have a nice stright section to grab for hammering pins and they are much better to self arrest with. Ability to plunge is similar to other options mentioned above.
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gargrantuan
Apr 2, 2008, 4:09 AM
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a serious compromise for hammering pins? i have placed and removed pins with both quarks and cobras and while it is a little annoying i certainly wouldn't say it was a "serious compromise." for self arresting? that is due to the reverse curved picks, not the bent shaft. besides my alpine tools are primarily for climbing which takes priority over plunge-ability, arresting (just don't fall!), or pin placing.
to be honest most alpine climbers i know don't even own a mountaineering axe because routes that aren't steep enough to do with ice tools aren't worth doing. going for a long walk up hill isn't climbing, it's hiking.
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fool
Apr 3, 2008, 1:03 PM
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Robbovius: Sorry for the OT, but is that picture up in NH, about an hour north of Hanover? I think I was climbing there a few weeks ago, but I forgot the name.
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vterinme
Apr 4, 2008, 1:53 AM
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It's Kinsman Notch, and a bit more than an hour north of Hanover (unless you have a better road than I know).
I recently purchased the BD Vipers and really love them. Piolet Cane is not a problem if you give the tools a chance. They work very well for steep ice. you can do either leashed or unleashed, though I'm turning into a leashless person due to the variety of movements possible. They are light enough, and if you are truly thinking one day you might try the gnarly alpine routes, the previous stated crap will be sub par, IMHOP. Buy a tool you'll use now regardless of what you think you might get into, you can always buy another set or tool to go on some far fetched trip years down the road.
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tradklime
Apr 9, 2008, 6:29 PM
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The Mantas climb better than anything else as well, in my opinion. The only time I don't like them is when having the clearance bend near the head is an advantage. Buldges, hacked out ice, funky formations, etc, and even then it's only a minor issue and certainly not very common in the alpine environment.
Re: self arrest, ymmv
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landongw
May 4, 2008, 6:05 AM
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Gargantuan, your stated profile says you lead 5.1 and follow 5.2, and then that you lead only WI1/AI1 and follow up to WI2.
how is it that you figure you are qualified to give advice on ice tools when you state that you only have experience in terrain where tools aren't even really required?
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gargrantuan
May 6, 2008, 10:09 PM
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landongw wrote: Gargantuan, your stated profile says you lead 5.1 and follow 5.2, and then that you lead only WI1/AI1 and follow up to WI2. how is it that you figure you are qualified to give advice on ice tools when you state that you only have experience in terrain where tools aren't even really required?
my stated profile reads as such because i think the idea of stating your lead and following abilities on the internet is a waste of time. would you believe my opinion more if i had stated that i lead WI7 and follow WI9? or how about if i had been giving my opinion on ice tools but stated that i was leading 5.14 sport climbs with no mention of ice?
i figure that i am qualified to give advice on ice tools because i use them, a lot. i also figured that people would be able to read into my posts enough to know that my opinion comes from my experience (which contrary to my stated profile is broader than WI2).
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landongw
May 8, 2008, 10:09 PM
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Sorry for the pissing all, but i think you're full of it gargantuan. Because, if it was a "waste of time" you wouldn't have put anything there, and it would appear blank. For example, my ascent log is blank, and states nothing, because I didn't feel like spending the time. You already took the time to enter those values, your rationale makes no sense.
i've seen people with crampons and tools out on snowy trails, sloped at less than 30 degrees. I think you're one of those people based on what you say in your profile and posts.
Personally, i am looking at ice tools for the first time too. and would appreciate valid advice from people who actually know from experience. spouting posers confuse the issue and dramatically depreciate the value of this site as an information resource.
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gargrantuan
May 9, 2008, 10:05 PM
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a 'waste of time' is a relative thing, landon.
i have the time to fill out numerical values for my profile, but being honest about my how hard i lead rock, ice, and mixed so some dipshit on the internet can judge how credible my responses are remains a 'waste of time.' the rationale behind this is simple, if you had some reasonable idea about climbing ice, then you'd know that everything i said about those tools is true (especially the part about the using the search feature and 'ice tool reviews' being done to death on here).
i am happy that you think i am a trail stomping punter because that was the point of entering those values into my profile. you fell for it and you're making yourself look like more of an ass by insulting me and assuming that i am some 'spouting poser.'
don't take my advice, buy some shitty tools, and come back when you've actually starting ice climbing with them. perhaps then you'll realize that the content of one's post matters far more than the numbers in their profile. the 'valid advice from people who actually know from experience' is right here on rc.com, all you have to do is pull your head from your ass and read carefully.
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harpo_the_climber
Jun 20, 2008, 6:02 PM
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Anyone use Black Diamond Venom Ice Axes? Can you comment on their uses and limitations?
Rock and Ice did a review a couple of years ago and says they are light (17oz) but are well balanced and swing well.
Like the original poster, I am looking for a tool to use in the mountains primarily, but I might also use them on waterfall ice.
Or will they be too much of a compromise and should I get something like the old style Cobra?
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fresh
Jun 20, 2008, 8:37 PM
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thanks for the replies, guys. minus the flame war.
I've all but decided to get petzl quarks. I have two concerns which might reveal my n00bness but here goes.
1. the pinky rest seems to interfere with plunging. from what I've heard it isn't an issue in most snow types, but how easy is it to remove? I'm guessing it's not worth it to adjust it in the middle of a cold, miserable alpine climb. I love the grivel slider, but I believe that can only be used on grivel tools, and not even on all grivel tools at that.
2. leashless climbing. if I want to use umbilical cords, where do they clip in? I would guess the bottom but it looks like the pinky rest gets in the way. thoughts?
thanks again.
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gargrantuan
Jun 22, 2008, 7:51 PM
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good choice on the quarks, fresh! they are awesome tools.
the pinky rest is removable but you're right, you'd never stop to change it mid-route. i really think you should just leave it on there and plunge it with reckless abandon. if the snow is too hard to plunge the pinky rest through then 9 times out of 10 you can use the tool normally. PLUNGING SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR WHEN BUYING A TECHNICAL ICE TOOL. the pinky grip is great and you'll never really find the need to remove it. just trust.
you'll have to attach a couple of small cord loops through the holes in the spikes on the bottom of the shaft to set them up for umbilicals. they don't really get in the way so you can set that up and leave them on there all the time.
you may also want to look at getting the BD android leashes, i found the petzl leashes suck serious balls.
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fresh
Jun 23, 2008, 1:13 PM
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gargantuan,
thanks for the tips. I'm still making a decision--I was pretty psyched for the quarks, but I played with the cobras this weekend and now I'm on the fence again. the salesguy at REI recommended the same thing for the quarks, tying a cord through the bottom to clip in to. (but he also told me I'd want one curved technical tool and one straight-shaft tool for plunging into snow, so I wasn't sure how to take his advice  .) how does a cord like that do after being plunged in snow over and over? I'm guessing fine?
the cobras honestly feel better to me than the quarks. but them being carbon fiber makes me wonder a bit. I know that they're pretty time-tested but it seems like they wouldn't be quite as stout for hard climbing. am I crazy? my tools just can't have any chance of breaking.
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mattb1921
Jun 23, 2008, 7:16 PM
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fresh wrote: gargantuan, the cobras honestly feel better to me than the quarks. but them being carbon fiber makes me wonder a bit. I know that they're pretty time-tested but it seems like they wouldn't be quite as stout for hard climbing. am I crazy? my tools just can't have any chance of breaking.
You are crazy. You can put those new cobras in a crack and cam the hell out of them and not worry. I don't think that the tool was developed for light use. As for the cord and how it will hold up. It should be fine for long trips. You might have to replace it a few times a year but cord is very cheap.
It seems like the REI guy put a new thought in your head about the two different tools. You have to go with what you feel comfortable with. A straight shafted tool can be nice due to the longer length but not a absolute must have. Get the cobras or quarks and just practice using them. Practice a self arrest with the tool and get used to how to use it. When I am on terrian where I know that I will need a technical tool I always just take two technical tools. I rarely use the mountaineering axe/technical tool combo. I have the new vipers and plunging is not a problem. I can bury the tool no problem for a belay if need be.
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crimpstrength
Jun 23, 2008, 7:36 PM
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I used to love the quarks.....until I swung the new cobras. Now I climb with the Cobras. No the pinky rest does not affect the plunging ability of the tool - they pluge fine.
To the OP - Its not about what the catalog says, my best advice would be test as many as you can and pick the one that works best for you....not the REI guy or the sponsored climber in the picture in the catalog.
The new Cobras are incredible for alpine despite what the catalog may say. I also like the new vipers....and I really really loved my quarks before those two tools.
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jjanowia
Jun 23, 2008, 7:47 PM
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The question about the plunge-ability of tools , seems to me, hinges a lot on if you will be crossing glaciated terrain. Need to self belay on moderately - sloped terrain to execute team arrest in the event of a crevasse fall? Worry about plunging. Just cruising up steep snow slopes to the frozen waterfall near where you live? Listen to the others who say don't worry about plunging. Dig?
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fresh
Jun 23, 2008, 8:26 PM
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good to hear plunging doesn't matter. the REI guy gave me doubts. damn salesmen.
I would love the cobras but they're expensive. I considered taa-k-oons but they're too heavy and I can't find one with an adze. it seems to be between the quarks and the vipers. it comes down to what feels better but shoot, it's summer, so I can't really test anything out for a little while. maybe I'll flip a coin?
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fresh
Jun 26, 2008, 4:47 PM
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for all of you who are on the edge of your seat in suspense, wait no longer as I've made my purchase.
it's the taa-k-oons.
I've never swung them, I've heard they're hard to grip for plunging (meh?), and that they are so-so as an alpine tool.
but, they were $300.
so I figure I'll get a feel for what I like/hate about them in the coming year(s) and if I need to buy new tools I'll worry about it then. the price was right.
thank you all for your comments!
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stickyfingerz
Jun 26, 2008, 6:12 PM
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Hey Fresh,
Welcome to the fun? world of ice climbing. The taa-k-oons should be good to start cutting your teeth with.
Two words of advice.
One, you might want to take off the index triggers. The metal is pretty thin/wimpy and bends easily. My buddy climbs with taa-k-oons, and when we were out one day he managed to smash one of them fairly flat on an ice bulge. Kinda sucked as it was then unusable and annoyingly in the way. IMO, they don't really do that much for you anyway.
Two, it's going to be pretty challenging/impossible? to rig umbilicals with the pinky rests on the tools. Personally, I don't think umbilicals are really worth it anyway, but if you want 'em, you might have to get creative with a power drill.
Have fun and be safe. Remember, falling with 28 razor-sharp steel spikes strapped to your body can really suck.
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Crimsonghost
Jun 26, 2008, 9:33 PM
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With the Taakoons, it's not hard at all to rig up lanyards/umbilicals. Just tie off a short loop of 4mm accessory cord through the small hole and clip into this. 4mm cord is easily strong enough to hold you if you slip. Personally I find the triggers really help control the accuracy of my swings but you might find different, have a play around with them - you've made a good choice though.
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mattb1921
Jun 27, 2008, 1:56 PM
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You are going to get nice and strong swinging those heavy things over your head. 
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crimpstrength
Jun 27, 2008, 2:25 PM
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Fresh,
This may be a little late but I suppose some perspective never hurts. I have never needed an adze. The idea of a large (larger than a hammer) spade moving at a forceful velocity towards my eye is not appealing. I have never encountered a situation where I wished I had an adze because the hammer(s) was not effective.
Now knowing that you already purchased tools that doesn't help. But - can you change the hammer/adze on the tools you purchased? If so, don't think about what everyone else is doing (such as the REI guy) and figure out what works for you.
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the_climber
Jun 27, 2008, 2:49 PM
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fresh wrote: for all of you who are on the edge of your seat in suspense, wait no longer as I've made my purchase. it's the taa-k-oons. I've never swung them, I've heard they're hard to grip for plunging (meh?), and that they are so-so as an alpine tool. but, they were $300. so I figure I'll get a feel for what I like/hate about them in the coming year(s) and if I need to buy new tools I'll worry about it then. the price was right. thank you all for your comments!
Congrats. I've been climbing on the Taa-k's since the first year they were avalible in North America.
To say they are a great tool is an understatement! They work good for hard ice, hard mixed, and alpine. Not a begginer's tool for alpine, but something that you'll learn to deal with. VERY easy to rig up umbilicals(sp?) to.
Plunging is alright, managable is how I'd put it.
Do youself a favour, file that first tooth off. Leave the very point of the pick where it is, just file that first tooth flat, you'll thank me for that one when you're cleaning the tool.
As for the comment of the trigger finger flattening on a bulge... First off good swing technique will thake care of that. IF it does happen, you can straighten it out with great ease by using the hole in the pick of the other tool (even on lead).
I wrote up a review on them a few years back in the gear section check it out if you want.
I had a warentee issue with mine last winter (a problem that grivel fixed after the first full run of them). The upper section of the shaft used to be longer and a combination of that and the rivit being pressed to hard lead to a small crack in the shft below the rivit. This was after 4 seasons of hard abuse on them by a heavy climbing (tones of mixed, ice, and alpine with an average of 70+ days of use per season) before the issue became apparent.
THAT SAID... I had my pick of A N Y tool in the shop to replace them with. I replaced them with another pair of TAA-K-OONS! And I did that for many many reasons. They simply are the best tool I've had my hands on, and I've used just about everything out there right now. At least those that come through my area - Canadian Rockies - with the number of Euro traveling through that pretty much covers the board on most tools out there.
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the_climber
Jun 27, 2008, 2:56 PM
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crimpstrength wrote: Fresh, This may be a little late but I suppose some perspective never hurts. I have never needed an adze. The idea of a large (larger than a hammer) spade moving at a forceful velocity towards my eye is not appealing. I have never encountered a situation where I wished I had an adze because the hammer(s) was not effective. Now knowing that you already purchased tools that doesn't help. But - can you change the hammer/adze on the tools you purchased? If so, don't think about what everyone else is doing (such as the REI guy) and figure out what works for you.
I only use an adze on Alpine routes, that said I no longer own an adze for my Taa-k's, only for my old DMM Flys.
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the_climber
Jun 27, 2008, 3:01 PM
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Crimsonghost wrote: With the Taakoons, it's not hard at all to rig up lanyards/umbilicals. Just tie off a short loop of 4mm accessory cord through the small hole and clip into this. 4mm cord is easily strong enough to hold you if you slip. Personally I find the triggers really help control the accuracy of my swings but you might find different, have a play around with them - you've made a good choice though.
5mm cord fits just as good and is stronger. That's what I use, and what I'd recommend.
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fresh
Jun 27, 2008, 5:26 PM
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haha I thought you'd have some good things to say.
the tools only come with hammers, so if I want an adze I'll have to order one for $50. (which brings them close to what I'd pay for new vipers on sale, but something in my gut points me more towards taa-k-oons, probably "oooh yellow!") maybe this is more of a blessing. does anyone know if these normally ship with cascade or mixte picks? I couldn't find out..
I'm completely envious of my friend who snagged a pair of alp wings last fall. those would be just what I'm looking for. but I think cheap is right for me, I'll work out the kinks of my preferences the more I climb.
since I'll be whacking at new england ice, which by many reports is somehow harder than ice made elsewhere (something I find curious), the weight doesn't bother me. I might as well get a little strong.
anyone think a slider would be a good investment? (ok really I just wanna be like steve house..)
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csproul
Jun 27, 2008, 5:36 PM
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fresh wrote: ...since I'll be whacking at new england ice, which by many reports is somehow harder than ice made elsewhere (something I find curious)...
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the_climber
Jun 27, 2008, 5:42 PM
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fresh wrote: haha I thought you'd have some good things to say.
I always have things to say about Givel, I'm guessing you read the review.
fresh wrote: the tools only come with hammers, so if I want an adze I'll have to order one for $50. (which brings them close to what I'd pay for new vipers on sale, but something in my gut points me more towards taa-k-oons, probably "oooh yellow!") maybe this is more of a blessing. does anyone know if these normally ship with cascade or mixte picks? I couldn't find out.. I'm completely envious of my friend who snagged a pair of alp wings last fall. those would be just what I'm looking for. but I think cheap is right for me, I'll work out the kinks of my preferences the more I climb. since I'll be whacking at new england ice, which by many reports is somehow harder than ice made elsewhere (something I find curious), the weight doesn't bother me. I might as well get a little strong. anyone think a slider would be a good investment? (ok really I just wanna be like steve house..)
Forget about a slider with the Taa-k's, it won't work and you won't need it.
Taa-k-oons come with a Mixte Pick. And I think that's really what you'll want with them. I was going to trade out the Mixte for the Cascade, but have decided with filing off the first tooth and the performance of the pick on pure water ice that the loss in durability wasn't worth it for me. I do have a pair of Racing Wings as well with the Cascade picks, and to be honest with you I prefer the feel of the taa-k-oons with the Mixte. The Cascade is a great pick, don't get me wrong, but that tool is best matched up with the Mixte no matter what climb you'll be on.
Just file that first tooth and try not to sink the too deep. Forget either and you'll fight to get them out. As far as weight and getting strong goes, I let my climbing partners son use my Taa-k's for the better part of the first half the season last winter. He weighs in at about 100lbs soakign wet with change in his pockets and a haul bag on his back, he had no problems.
The only problem I had with him using them is he didn't want to give them back.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Jun 27, 2008, 5:52 PM)
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the_climber
Jun 27, 2008, 5:46 PM
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csproul wrote: fresh wrote: ...since I'll be whacking at new england ice, which by many reports is somehow harder than ice made elsewhere (something I find curious)... Different temperatures and air/water amounts in ice, freeze-thaw cycles and probably a whole lot of other factors I can't think of. I have no contribution to your tool choice, I'm still using a pair of BD prophets with....gasp....leashes. And not all that often being that I now live in NC.
csproul makes a good point about leashes. First off I do climb leshless a lot (mostly only with tethers now), but I have mine rigged up with BD Androids. Highly recomentd that. BUT, with the way the tool is set up (geometry and handle configuration) keep the length so it does not interfear with the natural swing of the tool. Basically have it so you can pass the lesh under the spike freely, and that when your hand is in the leash you don't weight the leash till you let go of the handle. That goes for ANY leash on ANY tool IMO (except straight shafts, not the bent handle, but the straight shaft).
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fresh
Jul 1, 2008, 11:10 AM
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so the taa-k-oons turned out to be out of stock. not surprising since it was a pretty great deal.
Of tools in my price range, here's what I'm considering:
1. grivel matrix tech
2. black diamond viper (old)
3. black diamond reactor
I'm leaning towards the matrix tech. my only concern is that it doesn't seem to come with an adze. also, the head appears to be replaceable but only one retailer sells it. if I can't get one with an adze, I'll probably go for the vipers.
although this is another thought--do I really need an adze? I'm gonna be doing low-level technical climbs for a while, and will only need one in order to chop a seat. I won't be digging any platforms for a while. can I just get by chopping seats with the pick? furthermore, if I ever need to dig a platform it might make sense to bring a shovel anyway. I dunno.
I also might end up just getting the quarks during the EMS sale. but we'll see.
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mattb1921
Jul 1, 2008, 2:54 PM
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You know it really sounds like you are on a budget and so I would get the most versatile tool that you can get. You seem in bit of a hurry but you have a little while before ice season kicks off. I would hang out and wait until you see a deal on something like the new vipers and quarks. If you watch ebay and some of the climbing retailers you will always find a deal.
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crimpstrength
Jul 1, 2008, 3:26 PM
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Fresh,
A few posts above I gave my thoughts on an adze. I use two hammers and have never been in a situation where I wanted an adze - even when practicing self arrest. That huge-ish spade flying right toward my eye is a discomforting thought I don't know why.
The reactor seems to me to be more of a mixed tool and of the ones you listed will probably offer the worst plunging ability.
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fresh
Jul 1, 2008, 3:57 PM
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yeah that sounds legit. I'm only on a budget since it seems stupid to spend a ton of money on my first tools. meh we'll see.
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mattb1921
Jul 1, 2008, 8:24 PM
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fresh wrote: yeah that sounds legit. I'm only on a budget since it seems stupid to spend a ton of money on my first tools. meh we'll see.
You know I would not say that it is stupid to spend a lot of money on your first tools unless you are not sure if you want to ice climb or alpine climb. I bought the Petzl Aztars when I first started out due to I got them for a good deal and quickly realized that I needed something setup a little better for pure ice as I got into it. I was a little bummed when I had to buy a second pair of tools that would handle pure ice better. It can be a hard decision but make sure you get some thing that you will not have to upgrade right away if you decide to get really into it. I was looking around online and it looks like the old vipers can be picked up for around $300 for a pair. That would be a great tool if you were not certain if you wanted to get into it. Plus there are a lot of people who really liked those tools and so you could probably sell them easily if things didn't work out.
Sorry Fresh I meant to type vipers.
(This post was edited by mattb1921 on Jul 1, 2008, 9:53 PM)
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mattb1921
Jul 1, 2008, 8:33 PM
Post #47 of 52
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Some people have mentioned that they do not use an adze. I love to have one on alpine routes. I use mine for digging at ice to setup a good v-thread, chopping a place to stand on a slanted belay, chopping at crappy ice to get a good screw, chopping a spot to bivy, plus dozens of other tasks that always pop up. You can do all this with a hammer and the pick but it takes forever and sucks. Just something to keep in mind. You can avoid hitting yourself in the head with smooth technique but it will happen at some point.
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the_climber
Jul 2, 2008, 3:20 AM
Post #48 of 52
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fresh wrote: so the taa-k-oons turned out to be out of stock. not surprising since it was a pretty great deal. Of tools in my price range, here's what I'm considering: 1. grivel matrix tech 2. black diamond viper (old) 3. black diamond reactor I'm leaning towards the matrix tech. my only concern is that it doesn't seem to come with an adze. also, the head appears to be replaceable but only one retailer sells it. if I can't get one with an adze, I'll probably go for the vipers. although this is another thought--do I really need an adze? I'm gonna be doing low-level technical climbs for a while, and will only need one in order to chop a seat. I won't be digging any platforms for a while. can I just get by chopping seats with the pick? furthermore, if I ever need to dig a platform it might make sense to bring a shovel anyway. I dunno. I also might end up just getting the quarks during the EMS sale. but we'll see.
Off those tools you've listed the only one I could ever validate spending my money on are the Matrix tech's. Those are the tools which have replaced the Taa-k's in Grivel's line. You can get by just fine without an Adze, it's not as much of a "hassle" or a "major inconvenience" most on these boards would have you believe. In the alpine if you're on a route you need tools of that caliber on you'll likely be able to get buy just fine without one.
As for the old Vipers, I climbed on a set for a ling time and honestly I very much dislike them. Which is why I got rid of them as fast as I could (which meant swithing tools with my parter at a belay mid climb.
The Reactor.... Just don't.
If you have more questions on going adzeless let me know. And I can write them here or PM my views on it to you later. As for right now, I've just got back from 4 and a half days of 4wheeling and climbing, I'm bushed and signing off.
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Crimsonghost
Jul 2, 2008, 10:52 PM
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The Matrix Tech does have an adze option on the head - it's available in the UK, so hopefully will be in the US too. Check out grivel.com (the european site) That said, it's a bit wimpy looking, so unless you're sure you want an adze, go with two hammers.
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fresh
Jul 11, 2008, 3:15 PM
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so after the taa-k-oons were out of stock, I poked around for some more good deals. I found some old BD cobras on sale for $400, but after I ordered them, I got a message telling me they were out of stock. I checked my credit card and no charges had been placed. meh, no big deal.
so, yesterday as I was coming home from work, I noticed a large box on my front porch. it said "moosejaw" on the side. I become perplexed. I tear open the box and find two freaking sweet carbon fiber ice tools. much to the chagrin of my landlord I test them out on the tree in the front yard, just to make sure they're real. I called my friends, who weren't quite as excited as I was about me getting free ice tools.
after regaining my senses, I called moosejaw and informed them that they gave me tools without charging me. once they finished being confused at why I would call them, they told me they actually had charged me. sure enough, my credit card had been charged a few days later. for shame! no good karma points for me.
so yeah, what is it, five months until ice season?
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scuclimber
Jul 14, 2008, 8:04 AM
Post #52 of 52
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fresh wrote: no good karma points for me.
Nah, you still get the karma points because you thought they didn't charge you. It's your intent that counts. Enjoy your tools. I'm in the market, I've been following this thread.
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