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eclarke98


Oct 28, 2002, 4:40 PM
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Just sending it to the top, so hopefully PTPP will put up the info. Or if the info is hiding in some other topic, could someone put up the link, because I couldn't find it.


gunked


Oct 29, 2002, 6:24 PM
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Continuous Loop which is the solo tag rack.


[ This Message was edited by: gunked on 2002-10-30 09:36 ]


passthepitonspete


Apr 7, 2003, 9:49 PM
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Well, a year later I've finally gotten round to answering this question! Sheesh. But when you see the complexity of the drawing below, you'll begin to understand why it took me so long to complete.

The benefit of using the tagging system is that it solves the problems that Stu addresses above. When I solo El Cap, I don't have to wear my entire lead rack as you need to do when solo climbing the traditional way. All my extra gear hangs on the Solo Tag Rack, and I can pull the stuff up to me when I need it, thus sparing me the unnecessary burden of carrying it.

I'm a weakling. I'm a skinny undernourished undertrained overweight life insurance agent who sublimates by buying too much gear and who solos big walls on his holidays. If I were big and burly, I might consider carrying all my stuff with me, but I doubt it - I'm far too lazy. Much better to leave it hanging until I need it.

But this system is not a panacea. First of all, let me say that using the Continuous Loop with Solo Tagging is a technique for EXPERTS ONLY! The potential for disaster is always imminent! You could well die if you blow it, especially if you're soloing hard aid. Imagine taking a whipper, and then having fifty pounds of tagged gear taking a fifty- or hundred-foot factor 1 fall directly onto you!

This is not for the faint of heart! And it's NOT FOR EVERYONE. Just because I can use it doesn't mean that you can, or that you even should. In fact, you probably shouldn't, though on easy aid you might be OK. But you could probably find a way to die pretty easily.

Besides its danger, the system is also extremely complex and time-consuming - it is not the faster way, that's for sure. If you're a solo speed climber, then this system is probably not for you. But it works for me, and it works for Wally Barker, too.

You must EXPECT to make mistakes! It will take you many many pitches before you can tell at a glance if you've set it up correctly. In the meantime, expect your Solo Tag Rack to hang up, and expect to have to descend to fix it when you blow it. For this reason, you need to practise on pitches that are fairly straight - not too overhanging or traversing, because you will blow it, and have to return to your Solo Tag Rack. This is not Big Wall Prophecy - this is Big Wall Fact.

Secondly, the Continuous Loop with Double Tagging is even MORE dangerous! Imagine a mini-haul load more than half your body weight hanging on nothing but a fifi. Does that make your hands sweat? It should. In fact, I specifically recommend against the double tagging, and I no longer use it because it scares the piss out of me, and it seems more trouble than it's worth. But it's in the drawing, so you can take it or leave it as you see fit.

The benefit of Double Tagging is that it allows you to "haul for free" - as you rappel the pitch to return to the bottom to clean it, your Mini-Haul Double Tag Rack which should be about 60% of your body weight goes up with no extra work on your part! Clever, eh? But now you've got another rope to add to the clusterf*ck!

Believe me, you must be an expert at clusterf*ck management before you even consider attempting this stuff! [This is why you practise it first......]

So the drawing you see beneath shows TWO SYSTEMS - the Continuous Loop with Solo Tagging on the right side, which is the way that I solo El Cap, and a separate Double Tagging setup on the left which I no longer use.

I recommend you click on the diagram beneath which will open it in a separate window, which I think you'll find easier to look at then trying to scroll up and down.

Click here to see the CONTINOUS LOOP DIAGRAM.


passthepitonspete


Apr 7, 2003, 10:03 PM
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Please remember to

CLICK THE PHOTOS!

Each photo has a lengthy caption that explains in great detail what you see.

Presumably you have now opened the diagram in a separate window, and we're ready to go. For now, discount the Double Tagging on the left, and for now please focus on the system on the right.

The Continuous Loop begins and ends at the PIG. You can see Mr. Pig at the bottom, with a Catch Line on its left, and a Wall Flower on its right. It is "docked" to the Right Power Point using a Docking Tether, which is not particularly well-drawn and is the lines that join the Power Point Locker above to the Suspension Point Locker [on top of the pig] beneath.

This is one reason I use a 7mm Docking Tether - I want it to be bomber. The end of the lead rope is attached to the Right Power Point with a Transient Lead Rope Locker. It is my prerogative to use Transient Lockers on my Power Point, cuz once my Power Point is closed, I don't reopen it. You'll understand why it pays to do this, the next time you find yourself hosed. Use transients, and maintain your degrees of freedom.

Now, before you even leave the belay, you must abso-fricking-lutely eliminate the possibility of a factor 2 fall. In fact, the lead rope should probably be clipped through one of the bolts in the anchor. But at any rate, you can see that my first piece is clipped, and that I've used a Screamer there. I think using a Screamer when soloing on your first few pieces is really smart - fall factors can run high straight off the belay, especially when you don't have a human belayer to help absorb the shock. Play it safe. You shouldn't be soloing big walls without a bunch of Screamers, that's for sure.

Usually on the first piece of two, I will put the first long prusik sling backup - not so much as a rebelay, but to keep the lead rope properly oriented, and not have any slack in the system, or have it wrapping around stuff and tangling. You want a nice smooth run of rope from your anchor up to you. You can click here to read further notes about using a long prusik sling backup while solo climbing, which is fundamental to your safety, and to the longevity of your rope.

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifhttp://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=13043

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifThe first piece is a Screamer with attached Prusik Backup


The lead rope continues up to and indeed past the Solo Tag Rack, which is hanging from a bomber piece. Or at least ideally it is. In reality, you may not find a bomber piece. You have have to construct one. On hard aid, I am known to equalize two or even three pieces with sliding X's, and hang the Tag Rack from the bottom piece that is equalized.

Note: You should be intimately familiar with the Solo Tag Rack. This would be a good time to click on the link to refresh your memory. It's fundamental.

Take great care as to where you tag! Think ahead! You don't want to find yourself out of rope five moves into the middle of a ten-move hook traverse! Stop and tag before you get yourself into trouble.

It is possible to shorten the lead rope on the Solo Tag Rack so as to leave only say a hundred feet, thus forcing yourself to tag after fifty feet, but saving yourself the bother of restuffing the extra rope. I don't do this. I have the full two hundred feet of rope in the bag, and the first tag can be as far as a hundred feet. My rope changes colour at the halfway point, and because of my backup knot being tied, I can see the colour change come out of the rope bag, thus reminding me ahead of time that it's time to tag. More on this in a bit.

Continue up to the leader, belayed with a Grigri which you can't see. The free end goes out of the Grigri, hangs in about a ten-foot loop [not] and reconnects to the wide gate autolocker backup crabthat hangs from a short sewn sling from the second belay "donut" on my harness. ALWAYS TIE A BACKUP KNOT!!!

From the backup knot autolocker, which you can't see, the free end of the rope goes down to the Lead Rope Bag which hangs on the Solo Tag Rack. Also in this bag is about a 35-foot hunk of extra lead rope called the Solo Tag Extension, so I can link pitches, and so I don't have to tag too frequently on a long pitch. For instance, if the pitch is 200', then I still have 35' of extra tag line if I need it.

Now here's the cool part - the free end of the lead rope that travels from your Backup Autolocker down to the Solo Tag Rack is actually a Tag Line! So your lead rope becomes your Tag Line.

At the Solo Tag Rack, you can see that I have tied the end of the lead rope to the top of the Solo Tag Extension on the "downstream side" of the Tag Rack Locker. This is because when I tag, I pull up the Solo Tag Rack with a Wall Hauler [or equivalent Compound Pulley] that I carry with me for that express purpose. I don't want to have to cross the knot when tagging, though this can happen towards the end of the pitch. More on this later.

From the Solo Tag Rack, the Continuous Loop continues down from the top of the Haul Line to the haul line bag and back to the Right Power Point where the Continuous Loop ends at the Transient Haul Line Locker.





So the Continuous Loop is as follows:

Lower Power Point --- Lead Rope --- Climber's Grigri --- Climber's Backup Knot --- Lead Rope=Tag Line --- Lead Rope Bag --- Solo Tag Rack --- Haul Line --- Haul Line Bag --- Lower Power Point.





OK, it's late here, eh? I'm down in Florida like soaking up some rays. Today we went to the aquarium and petted the stingrays and hung out with the turtles and dolphins and other cool critters, and I'm like falling asleep.

Can you please hold off your questions and comments for another day or two?

I will next talk about HOW AND WHEN TO TAG, and the mechanism for operating the system. I'll also explain the Double Tagging bit too. "

I'm also going to be submitting some photos from Shortest Straw and Lunar Eclipse of my solo systems in action - "textbook photos" I made specifically with this post in mind.

Stay tuned.....


passthepitonspete


Apr 8, 2003, 10:00 AM
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Oh yeah, I see some inconsiderate wanker voted my Continuous Loop diagram a 3. It only took me about ten fricking hours to draw, not to mention the time that Travis put in, too. Would you mind please voting on it for me?

Cheers.


copperhead


Apr 8, 2003, 2:31 PM
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Sure, I'll vote on it for ya!


tenn_dawg


Apr 8, 2003, 2:55 PM
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Woah, the diagram looks great. Good job on the post Pete. Looking forward to more info to come.

Travis


valygrl


Apr 8, 2003, 3:15 PM
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3??? that's bogus. i'll vote that up for ya.

Thanks for the distractitude Pete... what would a work day be like without the occasional new doctor piton signature post?!?!

(Edited because I don't know how to spell.)


passthepitonspete


Apr 8, 2003, 8:22 PM
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Thanks lads and hottie! Much appreciated. I ask only because my beloved diagram is "not climbing" and there are a few wags and retards around here who might have disallowed it at 79K with a low vote. I needed the medium res. to make it readable.

Thanks for not replying. I have the next bit almost completely written, and hope to submit tonight, after I answer the many emails from a certain special someone that have lovingly filled my inbox. {wink}

After which, I'll write the bit about the double tagging, and you all can have at me. Many thanks.


passthepitonspete


Apr 8, 2003, 11:19 PM
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Note: Please remember to CLICK THE PHOTOS in order to read the detailed photo captions which will help you better understand this post.



TAGGING STRATEGIES

When it comes to tagging, you have to think ahead. Nowhere is this more important than at your lower belay. The potential for hangups, clusterf*cks and tangles is at its worst right here.

The first thing you need to do is windproof your belay. Make sure all of your ropes are properly stacked in their bags. The catch lines shouldn't be so light as to blow around. There can't be any loose slings flapping around in the breeze, and most importantly, your ledge [if you flag it, as I always do] has to be locked into place so it can't blow around either. Even if it’s not windy when you begin your lead, you could well be up there for several hours. And winds of 50 mph are normal in the afternoon high on El Cap, caused by nothing more than convective heating!

You need to visualize which direction you're heading on the next pitch, and put the Solo Tag Rack up high on that side of the belay. When you tag, the rack will swing a bit, and it has to swing free of the belay, and not swing into the belay. The last thing you want is your tag rack swinging into your docking tethers or the top of your pigs! You accomplish this by positioning it as described above. You need to tie the slippery overhand knot up high and out of the way in the same area as where you have the Solo Tag Rack. Be awful darn sure the chain of slipknots can’t tangle in anything, including the tag rack and its fifi.

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifhttp://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=13044

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifTag Rack rigged and ready to pull free of station


The other thing you have to consider is when it’s time to clean the pitch. If your pitch happens to begin with a hook traverse, you’re going to need to lower yourself out from the belay to begin cleaning. If this is the case, consider leaving yourself some extra lead rope for the task! You won’t be able to give yourself extra lead rope later, because the lead rope is fixed and held immobile by the long prusik slings you’ll be adding.

As mentioned above, when you’re on lead you don't want to find yourself out of rope in the wrong place. I prefer to give myself as much rope as possible, so that I can tag as late as I like, rather than being forced to tag earlier than I want because I'm out of rope. So I rarely shorten up the rope. I would rather pull out extra rope to pull up the tag rack, and then have to restuff all the rope, than to be forced to tag when I don’t want to.

Remember to put your long prusik slings onto gear every so often, especially before and after rub points. This is both an art and a science. You have to know precisely how much tension to put in the lead rope to get the prusik [really]klemheist] to hold the rope without slipping, yet permit enough slack in the rope so that when you are cleaning the pitch, your weight is supported by these klemheists in such a way as the rope does not rub on the edges. Make sure you have your first prusik down low to hold the lead rope in the correct orientation on the anchor.

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifhttp://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=12833

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifHow to Rig a Long Prusik Rebelay


Done properly you can completely eliminate rub points on your lead rope by using long prusiks. This takes practise, even for me. By the time I've finished my solo of the wall, I'm finally getting it right most of the time! But you really do have to practise this, especially getting the tension just right. Wouldn’t you love to start and finish your solo ascent with a brand new rope? You can’t do this when you have a partner jugging your [un-rebelayed] lead rope.

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifhttp://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=12834

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifPerfectly Rigged Long Prusik Rebelay


OK, so now you’re partway up the pitch. When it's time to tag, you really want to have a couple-three bomber pieces close together. You need to remove the Wall Hauler or equivalent Compound Pulley from your Personal Rack, which is usually a designated gear sling on your harness, and set it up to pull up your Solo Tag Rack. My Solo Tag Rack is far too heavy to pull up by hand. I absolutely need to carry a compound pulley for this specific purpose.

Have a look at my Dr. Piton’s Ultimate Big Wall Checklist article to see where I’ve listed all the components of this system.

Assuming you are climbing vertically and not traversing and that the pro is all good, when it’s time to tag I will clip one daisy into the lower piece and put my weight on it, and clip my other daisy into the upper piece, and attach my compound pulley to that. This is so the compound pulley is at face level where it's easier to pull up the massive load, which takes two hands and a lot of sweat. If the pieces are less than bomber, you may have to start getting creative and equalize stuff to find a solid enough place that you would dare to hang yourself and your fifty-plus pounds of gear.

Now that you have a mini hauling station set up, you also have to have a place to hang your Solo Tag Rack. I always hang my rack through a piece of nylon, and not through a carabiner. I find the nylon provides a bit of "bite" into the fifi, and allows me to feel just a bit more comfortable than putting the hook on a crab. Remember, this should be a bomber place to hang it - equalize if necessary. On really hard aid, you might find yourself equalizing and downclimbing three or four pieces before you can tag!

OK, dude - start hauling! Pull up your Solo Tag Rack. If you are smart and have set it up properly ahead of time, you will have preplaced your sling [on which you will hang the rack’s fifi] in a convenient place so that you can easily put the fifi into it. Remember, it is almost impossible to lift a fifty-pound Solo Tag Rack with one hand! So get this sling set up right ahead of time.

The other thing you need to have set up ahead of time is your wide gate backup crab through which you tie your backup slippery overhand knot chain. Put this separate from the place you hang the fifi, separate enough so that the chain of knots will NOT tangle with the fifi! If it tangles, you won't be able to pull up the tag rack.

Once you have hauled up the tag rack, pop its fifi into the sling – which may involve an Ahnold-like one-hand lift – then back off the Compound Pulley, and relax. Now, before you take the rope out of the Compound Pulley and with the fifi in the sling but still backed up by the Compound Pulley, pull in all the excess rope and stack it into the rope bag.

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifhttp://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=10096

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifRichard's photo of the Better Way to stuff a rope bag

Please click this photo now, which is a link to itself, and read the photo caption before you continue reading this post. You will not simply not believe how much time you will save using this incredibly simple technique!



passthepitonspete


Apr 8, 2003, 11:24 PM
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PLEASE MOVE TO THE NEXT PAGE TO CONTINUE READING TAGGING STRATEGIES - PART 2


copperhead


Apr 10, 2003, 12:22 AM
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Pete, maybe you should also sell a life insurance package to each of your "Better Way" customers.


tenn_dawg


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:roll: Does Bryan remind anyone else of organ boy? It's the witty one liners that sell it.

Travis


passthepitonspete


Apr 21, 2003, 6:08 PM
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TAGGING STRATEGIES [Part]

How much rope do you have left over? Can you get to the next tag point with half of what you have? If so, great. If not, you will have to untie the end of the lead rope from the locker on the fifi, and put the end of the Solo Tag Extension rope into it instead.

NOTE! When you do this, you are not backed up by the compound pulley! So make darn sure you have a separate backup! And if you used a backup, make just as darn sure you remember to remove it afterwards!

Your rope should now be fully stacked in the rope bag. Your compound pulley backs up the rack. Have a look at what's coming up. What gear should you take off the rack? What gear should you put back? Grab yourself a Cold Gold as per copperhead's instructions, and chill. You are in the middle of an A4 solo - you're b*tchin', you're bad-ass. Open a can of beans and have lunch. [Presumably you had the presence of mind to bring your big wall spoon] Grab your headlamp if you think you might be benighted. Put your penlight on the cord round your neck, because you're smart enough never to get stuck in the dark with no light while soloing a big wall [don't do as I do, do as I say…..]

Note: I no longer climb at night, unless there is a darn good bivi ledge within reach. When it starts getting dark and after pulling up and securing my Solo Tag Rack for the last time that day, I equalize a few pieces, and rap down to my lower station and relax. I'm on holidays, remember? I don't need to climb in the frickin' dark, mate! I'm goin' down to my ledge to crank out the tunes! It's set up and ready to go. Unclip it to de-windproof it, drop it into place, get on, and grab a beer, eh?

Anyway, once your rope is stacked back in its bag on the Solo Tag Rack, put a little bit of slack between your compound pulley and the tag rack, about three-four feet, and use this slack to tie your slippery overhand backup knot above the Solo Tag Rack. Again, this is to back up the rack if the fifi accidentally comes off. I used to use a separate backup clip-in loop on my Solo Tag Rack during this operation, but no longer do. This is because I too often forgot to unclip it! So later when it came time to tag up my rack, I'd find out I couldn't pull it up! In fact, you don't need it, because you have the Compound Pulley in place to back it up until such time as you tie the slippery overhand backup knot. So the clip-in loop is redundant, and not needed. You'll only come to grief if you use it. Trust me - I know!

Now take a very careful look at what you have just done. If you are going to blow it, then THIS is the place.

The first and easiest way to blow it is to tie the slippery backup knot incorrectly! The easiest way this happens is by somehow opening the gate of your wide gate backup carabiner when you tied it. If you want to play it safe, designate five or so of your wide-gate crabs ahead of time just for this purpose, and duct-tape the gates closed. Then you can't blow it. Believe me I have learned this the hard way. I repeat - if you have opened the gate of your wide gate backup crab, then the lead rope must be passing through it, in which case you won't be able to pull up your tag rack!

If you're not sure about your slippery backup knot, why not pull it out and retie it a few times, just so you know it works? I do.

The next easiest way to blow it, is to somehow get the Solo Tag Rack UNDER you lead rope. Remember, the Solo Tag Rack will come off the top of everything, and it must therefore BE ON TOP of your whole belay system. If it's not, you will be in trouble.

LOOK CAREFULLY. After a half-dozen solos of big walls, I can tell at a glance. But you won't be able to. Look very very carefully and try to visualize exactly what will happen when you tag. Be certain it will work! Be certain that nothing will tangle. Especially the chained backup knot. Keep all the ropes tight with no excess slack blowing around.

STUDY the photo beneath very carefully! Make sure you don't blow it!

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifhttp://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=13045

http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/shimgrey.gifProperly Rigged Tag Rack at Mid-Pitch - GET IT RIGHT!


I cannot emphasize enough that you MUST PRACTISE THIS! It is NOT EASY. Mistakes will happen. Have it dialled BEFORE you get yourself into trouble. [Mind you, I learned how to do it on my solo of Iron Hawk, which was a route longer and harder than any I had climbed at the time. But then, I believe in "upping the ante" - you might too. Sometimes it's fun to climb your way into trouble - it's an adventure. Just don't pay the price with your life. Fortunately, when I was figuring this stuff out, my Wall Doctor was eight hundred feet below and could shout up helpful hints when I got scared.]

Once you are convinced that everything will work, and that you have grabbed everything off the rack you might need, it's time to continue climbing. If you are about to reach your upper belay station, you might want to grab your cordalette and power point locker off the tag rack and take it with you. Now climb around your rack carefully, and don't knock it off!

As you approach your upper belay, you may find yourself making more and more tags as you start to run out of rope. This is the advantage of the Solo Tag Extension as you can extend your lead rope. The drawback, however, is that you have to cross the knot that joins the end of your lead rope to your solo tag extension! This is NOT easy when your tag rack is heavy! You may end up desperately gripping the rope between your teeth to hold the weight of the tag rack, as you hurriedly pass the knot around the compound pulley! The more I solo big walls, the less frequently I tag. It's a pain in the ass, but it beats carrying all the stuff. If your jaw aches afterwards, remember this conversation.

Once you get to the upper belay station, you pull up the tag rack for the final tag. Again, visualize which way you're going, and set it up your tag rack in the right place ahead of time.

The first thing I do when I reach the upper station is to put a carabiner through each of the bolts. Right away, first thing. I save my strongest and most trustworthy standard non-lockers for the belay. I rarely use lockers, since they are designated for other purposes. Once I've clipped the bolts with crabs, I can whip off my lead rack, and hang it by its lead rack tethers off the bolts to get the weight off of my shoulders. Don't even think of soloing a big wall until you have made the lead rack modifications described in the link in this paragraph.

Remember to use transient carabiners on the ends of the lead rack tethers so that you can easily unclip your lead rack later. Set up your cordalettes and your power point, and get your Solo Tag Rack all set and ready to go, keeping it up high and in the direction you're travelling. The next thing you need to do is to fix your lead rope for jugging. Fix it to your power point with a Transient Lead Rope Jugging Locker. You can't put any extra slack in the lead rope - just the same amount you always have been putting in with your prusik loops.

Remember that before you start jugging, you will have cut the pigs free, and they will be hanging via the haul line from your Power Point. Your Power Point will therefore be pointing straight down. If you happen to approach your upper belay from one side of the other, there will be a sideways pull on the Power Point caused by you jugging it, but if you've set up your prusiks properly, the Power Point won't even be weighted until you have passed the last prusik sling. At any rate, you don't need to set up a separate Power Point for your lead rope. It can go off the main Power Point, which will be oriented correctly by the weight of the load.

Finally - and very carefully - pull up the top of your haul line which is tagged with a locker on the bottom of the Solo Tag Rack. Pull up enough extra haul line, put a bight in it, and clip the bight off so you don't drop it. [If you do drop the haul line, you will have a helluva time getting back to your lower belay, especially if the pitch is traversing and overhanging!] Once the haul line is clipped so you can't accidentally drop it, you can remove the locker from the tag rack, and clip it to the power point. This is your nylon highway to your lower belay.

Now, you have two ways to set up your haul line. You can just attach the haul line to the power point with its designated transient locker, and rappel the haul line directly. When you return to the upper station after hauling, you will have to put the zed cord of your 2:1 Hauling Ratchet onto the haul line in order to lift it into your hauling device.

Alternatively, you can put the haul line directly into the hauling device, and rappel from that, your weight being held by a toothed cam. If you are using a Wall Hauler, this can and should be scary. If you are using a Kong Block Roll, you are smart. No matter which device you're rappelling from, put only enough slack in the system between your hauling device and the power point to allow you to begin hauling, as this is your backup to the haul device failing when you rappel.

OK, you're ready to rappel, eh? Check a few things first. Have a look over your whole belay. Is it ready to accept your weight when you rappel? Is it ready to accept the pig's weight? Is it ready to accept your weight and the weight of the pigs when it's time for you to jug? Did you remember to take off your lead rack? Do you have your hammer and cleaning tool and funkness with you? It ain't gonna do you any good up at the top belay! Do you have your jugs with you? Most likely you will need them to pull yourself into the lower belay if the pitch is overhanging and/or traversing. Do you use a backup on your rappel? Have you left anything on the tag rack that you might need?

Are you returning to camp at your lower station, having finished the pitch, but not bothering to haul in the dark? If so, you should try to steal as many "bivi biners" as you can! "Rob" them from your tag rack, or clean a few pieces on the way down [not on a traverse, eh?].

If you happen to be Double Tagging, there is something else you will need to do first, before you rappel.


passthepitonspete


Apr 21, 2003, 6:10 PM
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DOUBLE TAGGING


This is a sophisticated and complex technique that may well be more trouble than it is worth, and certainly borders on Big Wall Theory if not downright stupidity. Unfortunately, it just does happen to work, since I’ve used it myself on at least one big wall solo. It also happens to be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, with virtually unlimited potential to kill you, and create you endless heartache of clusterf*ckage.

I don’t bother with it any more, but it just happened to be on my diagram, so I might as well tell you about it. But for the record, I recommend against it.

The benefit of Double Tagging is that it allows you to lift a partial load for “free” when you rappel the pitch you just led in order to clean it. You go down, and your partial load goes up. This is accomplished by putting your potential energy to work in lifting the partial load, instead of wasting it heating up your rappel device. [Aside: If not for the concept of entropy and the Second Law of Thermodynamics, you could just heat your descendeur with your lighter, and rappel up the rope! In fact, without entropy there would be no clusterf*ckage, all big walls would be climbed with a Wank Factor of Zero, and my desk at home would be neat and tidy. But where’s the fun in that?! Sheesh.] So lifting your partial load leaves you less to haul on your main load. Anyone who has soloed and hauled has certainly thought about it, as it makes perfect sense. Simple enough in theory, but much much harder to get right in practice.

The danger of Double Tagging is that you have a rather large load hanging from a fifi hook, with the potential to take a two-hundred-foot factor 1 fall right onto your Solo Tag Rack, thus dragging your rack and quite possibly you to a terrifying death at dizzying heights above the ground. But it’s also so darn cool you just might be tempted to try it! But do so at your own risk, eh?

The first thing you need is an extra rope. You can use most any rope you like that is sufficient to lift your partial load. I have noted on the diagram that this could be your Backup Lead Line. Well guess what? You don’t NEED a backup lead line! There are two reasons for this. First of all, if you ever put a nick in your lead line, you just tie the damaged section into the middle of a Euro Death Knot or a Butterfly Knot - NOT a Figure-8 on a bight! – and carry on solo leading as per usual. Your rope doesn’t move, so a knot is immaterial, though it weakens your rope a bit. Secondly, if you are using your long prusik slings and are correctly rebelaying your lead rope, you will have absolutely NO wear whatsoever on your lead rope. Done correctly, your lead rope will last longer soloing big walls than it will in any other form of climbing, with the possible exception of toproping, which isn’t really climbing anyway. At least not to me.

You need to set up your partial load very carefully at your lower belay station. It needs to go onto its own fifi, and needs to be backed off with the same slippery overhand knot chain that you use to back up your Solo Tag Rack. You need to make sure that when it lifts, it won’t tangle with anything. Remember to put it below your Solo Tag Rack when you are starting out, but above your main piggage.

Your Partial Load should be about 60% of your body weight, or possibly a shade more. Much less, and you’re wasting your time. Any heavier, and you’ll be pulling yourself down your haul line by hand!

Up at the top belay station after having cleaned the pitch, you are now ready to rappel. Take the top end of your Double Tag Line, and put it through your Compound Pulley. If you only have one Compound Pulley, this is OK, because when you return to haul your main load, you can dock the partial load, and use the Compound Pulley on the main load. You’ll need to use your Hauling Ratchet zed-cord to put slack into the main load’s haul line to lift it into the Compound Pulley.

After putting the Double Tag Line through the Compound Pulley, pull up all of the slack in the line. Just before you reach the fifi, you will feel that characteristic whatever-the-heck-you-call-it feeling of the slipknots popping, the same ”warning” feeling you get when you’re about to run out of rope on lead, and will need to pull up your Solo Tag Rack. Take in the extra slack, tie a bight in the Double Tag Line, and attach that part of the Double Tag Line to you. It doesn’t matter if the Partial Load pops [unlikely] since the line is through the Compound Pulley.

Attach your rappel device to the Haul Line, and after yet another check for safety and wank factorage, down you go. [You don’t need me to remind you to check everything for safety when you’re about to rappel two thousand feet off the deck – if you do, then you shouldn’t be up there! As for not creating a Charlie-Foxtrot - you’re on your own, mate!]

When you return to the lower station, your Partial Load will be almost, but not quite, at the upper belay station. So disconnect the end of the Double Tag Line, remove all the knots, and let it hang. Pray it’s not windy and won’t wrap itself around your main load, because it’s going to be dangling there while you clean the pitch.



Was it worth all the extra bother to save on a bit of hauling? To me, it’s not. I’m awfully darn good at hauling. I need to be with all the crrrrrrrrap I take up the wall. But then again, ”on a toujours la choix.” Like Christian Bonington, I chose to climb, and like Frank Sinatra – “I did it myyyyyyyyy waaaaaayyyy!”



Thanks to all for not replying. You can have at it now. I would especially like to hear from people who have tried it and like it. It’s not for everyone, but this forty-something wanker likes it. The boys and I are working on fixing the few mistakes on the drawing, especially putting the slippery overhand backup knot above the Solo Tag Rack. If you die doing this, please don’t blame me! However if you think it’s b*tchin’, and saves you slumped shoulders so you don’t have to wear your whole darn rack, or lets you enjoy a leisurely lunch in the middle of a desperate pitch, then like, bring me a beer, eh?

Oh yeah, and in case you're wondering what happened, I was getting some strange error message when I tried to edit the post to fix the photos, so I just deleted it and moved it over here.

Cheers, Pete


copperhead


Apr 22, 2003, 5:58 AM
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why do I have to type something in this stupid box? [In reply to]
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He's back.

In reply to:
Last edited by passthepitonspete on 22 Apr 2003 06:22; edited 24 times in total

What's with all of the editing? Why didn't you just post onto the end of the thread???

Thanks for the info but I didn't make it all the way through - got tired of reading...

Why is your tag rack so darn heavy and why do you set up a mini belay and mini haul mid-pitch to tag it all? Seems excessive.

Ps - you have a duplicate post and a simple explanation and diagram of this so called "double tagging" appears on page 106 of the Long/Middendorf book (I don't know of anyone who uses this dicey rap/haul system nor do I know of anyone who uses your tagging system).


passthepitonspete


Apr 22, 2003, 9:15 AM
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This box IS stupid, isn't it? [In reply to]
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All the edits were to insert the photos. I use this rather crafty "shim" idea invented by apollodorus to center the photos and captions, and it gets quite a few iterations to get it perfect. Yesterday I kept trying to edit, and it refused to do so. Today it worked fine.

My tag rack is heavy because I put everything onto it. That big beer cooler alone weighs twenty pounds. Ice is heavy, dude.

Wally Barker told me that he used this tagging system on his solos of The Ranch, Gulf Stream, Reticent, Plastic Surgery Disaster, and one more he told me and I've forgotten.

Copperhead, why don't you take a few hours and describe your tagging system? I read something about it in a photo caption somewhere.

Dr. Piton's Better Way does not purport to be the Best Way or the Only Way - it is like a smorgassbord - put what you like on the plate, and leave the rest behind in the bowls.

Double Tagging might be one of those menu items better left untouched.


epic_ed


Apr 22, 2003, 9:31 AM
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Re: This box IS stupid, isn't it? [In reply to]
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I'll second that request, Doc. In fact I recently asked him the same thing. I'm, too, am a "smorgasbord" kind of guy when it come to climbing systems and it would be great to hear how Bryan works out tagging (if he tags at all). It makes sense to take stuff from a variety of sources, try them out, and figure out what works best for me.

When I tagged my rack on a couple of pitches last time out I found it more time consuming than I'm willing to do as a standard proceedure on every pitch. However, it was good to practice it and I'm certain I'll use it on long pitches that are going to take the whole spectrum of gear. For the most part I'd rather just rack up with everything I need, but then again I'm a rather stocky guy and I've never felt overburdened by how much gear I've racked. Kind of like a security blanket, I guess. :P

Ed


epic_ed


Apr 22, 2003, 11:07 AM
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Found this...good stuff that shows proper rigging of belay anchor for upward pull during a solo. Includes some other good info.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=12636


copperhead


Apr 23, 2003, 5:07 PM
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Ummmmm... [In reply to]
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=12834 http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=13045

The prusik in the first picture appears to be about a foot or a foot and a half in length. If the climber falls while on lead, the length of the prusik will only allow about three feet of upward movement (due to rope stretch), provided the prusik knot is able to SLIDE THROUGH THE BINER. Rope stretch beyond three feet will either dislodge the cam, or if the piece is solid (i.e. pin or bolt), the rope will be prevented from stretching any further, thus minimizing the dynamics of the lead system. The second picture shows another “re-belay” prusik that is clipped to a bolt; this bolt appears to be about 80 to 100 feet above the belay. This prusik also appears to be about a foot or a foot and a half in length.

If you start to jug on a fixed 200-foot dynamic lead line (from the ground), how much does the rope stretch before it will completely hold your weight? If you take a 30-foot fall (assuming a clean fall, i.e. back-cleaned hooks) with 120 feet of rope out, how much will the rope stretch?

My point is that if you are going to use this “re-belay” system, you are going to need to use SIGNIFICANTLY longer prusiks. To work properly, the prusik in the second picture would probably have to extend down to the second placement below the “re-belay.”

Any tension that is put in the lead line by the use of the prusiks will be subtracted from the total amount of dynamic stretch of the rope during a fall.

Ps - why don't you clip the regular clip-in hole on your Pretzel Jug?


tenn_dawg


Apr 23, 2003, 5:29 PM
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Re: Ummmmm... [In reply to]
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Here's some of your answer.

Alot of people that learned how to jug in a caving environment clip the jug through the handle. One way of holding the Jug is to turn it around backwards and grab the jug on top, holding the rope with your index finger, and levering against it. If you have to pull back on the handle, the jug will rotate, causing some ammount of inefficiency in the system by adding several cm's of unnessessary rope movement. Holding on top of the jug, against the rope eliminates this, and is much more comfortable in my opinion.

Give it a try. You'd be suprised how much better it feels to use the top of the ascender.

Travis

(Part time caver, and I do a little climbing too)


tenn_dawg


Apr 23, 2003, 5:41 PM
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Re: Ummmmm... [In reply to]
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Another point,

I have taken a short fall (pulled 2 pieces) using this system with nothing more than the slings shown in the pictures for prusiks. When I took the fall, the prusik allowed the rope to slip upwards through it when it hit the carabiner on the placement.

I see your point though. It is possible that the prusik would hold, only allowing for aprox. 3 feet of stretch from the lower portion of the rope. However, this disadvantage is not a huge deal when you consider that on the first moves (15 or so) off the belay, you are in the same situation.

I think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages however. It is awesome only having 30 feet of dynamic rope stretch to jug when cleaning the pitch. Also, you have the option of protecting your rope from abrasive edges.

Do you have any other sugestions to accomplish this, but allow the rope to retain its full "stretchyness" at the end of the pitch? I'm open to all options.

Travis
(edited cause I've been drinking, and I can't type correctly)


copperhead


Apr 23, 2003, 5:45 PM
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Ascenders [In reply to]
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But how well can you open the cam (I use my thumb) or pop the thing off and back onto the rope to pass a piece if you are holding onto the ascender backwards?


tenn_dawg


Apr 23, 2003, 5:47 PM
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up2top,

Yes, that picture shows one possible option. Pete's system uses the pig as a "dynamic" belayer and I think that is an advantage.

If my porker were to start getting a little slim, I would use this clove hitch on the first placement off the belay as well (as long as the placement is a bolt, or multi-directional). I have also done this when soloing pitches on shorter climbs where I do not need a pig (some stuff at Looking Glass Rock in NC).

Good picture, and alternative however.

Travis


tenn_dawg


Apr 23, 2003, 5:54 PM
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Re: Ascenders [In reply to]
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Bryan,

It's not that bad really, just give it a try when you're doing a long jug sometime. The cam is still very accessable by either pushing down with your index finger, or just turning it a half turn or so, and grabbing with your thumb to pop it off the rope.

To each his own you know. I just think not using the handle is a little bit more comfortable, and efficient.

Travis


passthepitonspete


Apr 23, 2003, 6:06 PM
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Bryan's points are valid [In reply to]
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All of copperhead's points are valid, based on what he sees.

1. I use the other hole in my jug to stick in my adjustable fifi which I use when cleaning, and as I have described in the post "Dr. Piton - cleaning with two jugs is a pain etc." The maillon rapide I prefer is smaller and more compact than a locker.

2. It is true that the prusiks appear short in these two photos, however I wish to assure you they are not. Both photos are foreshortened by the camera angle.

3. Most significantly, the Klemheist knot that attaches the "prusik" sling to the rope is a one-way knot. If I fall, the knot gets pulled up through the crab, and will indeed allow the rope to slip. This has never proved to be a problem for me. Honest! The prusik slides up through the crab and then the rope slips. I have yet to rip a piece by pulling it upwards with this method, but there is always a first time.

How do I know this system works?

Cuz it's been tested - the hard way - many times, I confess.

But there is merit to Bryan's argument of having a longer prusik sling. In the upper photo, the sling on the cam IS long - you can't see it as it's hidden in the crack.

Good analyses. Geez, you guys are writing faster than I can write. This is good.

OK, copperhead's next question: you turn the jug ninety-degrees to thumb it open and pop it across a piece when you're cleaning, after which you cinch your adjustable fifi into the hole and crank. [Then back off your Grigri to reduce tension in the rope so you can clean the piece]

What tenn_dawg speaks rightly of is when you are jugging a free-hanging rope - you turn the handle away from you and put your hands over the top caver-style, exactly the same way you would use a Petzl Basic Ascender which of course has no handle.

The REASON I use a handled ascender when cleaning, rather than the Basic, is that I am frequently up against the wall, and like to turn the handle towards me in that instance so I don't bash my knuckles. I use the more compact Basic when caving quite frequently, though the handled one works OK, too.

But when I'm free-hanging Petzl Frog System jugging, handle away and hands on top is the only way to go, and this lard-assed out-of-shape life insurance agent will jump off the couch and race and beat any Yosemite honemaster on a longish free-hanging jug, provided said honemaster is using the standard and extremely-inefficient "Yosemite" jugging system. Believe it or not, it's about three times as fast.

Note: Said Honemaster will kick my lard-ass if the rope is on something less-than-vertical, and not free-hanging.


copperhead


Apr 23, 2003, 7:17 PM
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Ummmmmmmmmmmm... [In reply to]
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Is this thread really about ascender position while jugging, let alone cleaning?

PTPP wrote:
In reply to:
But there is merit to Bryan's argument of having a longer prusik sling. In the upper photo, the sling on the cam IS long - you can't see it as it's hidden in the crack.

Yeah, right. Wide angle lens, foreshortening, whatever. I can see the cam and the biner on the end of the prusik. The prusik is less than two feet in length, MAX! If the Klemheist truly is unidirectional, then why do you argue that the prusik is in fact long enough?

Tenn_Dawg wrote:
In reply to:
I see you point though. It is possible that the prusik would hold, only allowing for aprox. 3 feet of stretch from the lower portion of the rope. However, this disadvantage is not a huge deal when you consider that on the first moves (15 or so) off the belay, you are in the same situation.

15 or so? More like the first 3 or 4 placements (moves). Did you mean first 15 feet above the belay? It IS a huge deal. As the amount of rope in the system increases, the chances of the piece directly below you holding a fall increase as well. Fall factor. Dynamics is your friend. That’s why we have Screamers. A string of dicey hooks (back-cleaned) and a string of dicey heads may be just as sketchy if directly above the belay but given 100 or more feet of rope in the system, they may be quite different. I feel way more comfortable on dicey gear (unless it’s back-cleaned) when I’ve got a bunch of rope between me and my belayer. Almost anything that will hold a good bounce test will hold a one-placement fall near the end of a 200-foot pitch. I’ve had a #1 circle-head hold a one-placement fall (rope, not daisy) with about 90 feet of rope out and I ain’t light.

In reply to:
I think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages however. It is awesome only having 30 feet of dynamic rope stretch to jug when cleaning the pitch. Also, you have the option of protecting your rope from abrasive edges.

Once you take all of the stretch out of the rope when you begin to clean, the rope is relatively static. This is partly due to the friction of the rope running through all of the biners on each of the pieces on the pitch. An exception would be when a pitch traverses and ‘clip-cleaning’ is required; when the rope is again weighted at the end of the traverse, rope stretch must be dealt with, the amount of which is dependent on the remaining length of rope in the pitch.

In reply to:
Do you have any other sugestions to accomplisth this, but allow the rope to retain its full "stretchyness" at the end of the pitch? I'm open to all options.

Nothing in addition to what has already been said. If an edge cannot be padded (rope protectors exist – Mtn. Tools…) and is a serious threat to the lead line, then a prusik “re-belay” can be used, PROVIDED it is rigged properly, i.e. long enough. But then again, this only applies to soloing. Why do so many of the aid discussions on this forum revolve around soloing when most of us prefer to climb with a partner?


Damn, I feel like a little kid arguing… don’t I have homework/finals to work on…?




Is a jugging race in order…? :P
One legged? :wink:


copperhead


Apr 24, 2003, 5:07 AM
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A few more points:

If the Klemheist will in fact slip when the lead line is pulled upward during a fall, then won’t there be friction between the lead line and the Klemheist? Wouldn’t this friction cause lead line/Klemheist surface damage? Rope glazing or frictional melting? The lead line would be traveling quite quickly during a fall. Aren’t there stories from the old days of people melting prusiks by falling on them? Rope on biner friction = ok but rope on rope friction = bad.

In a vertically oriented system (pictured above, right) the lead line should be able to slip through the Klemheist. Let’s say, for example, that you were to take a whipper later in the pitch and the lead line stretched by 20 feet at the Klemheist point. This would mean that 20 feet of lead line would slide through the Klemheist. Since the Klemheist is a unidirectional knot, how would the lead line be able to slide back down after you had gotten back on the last piece of gear and un-weighted the lead line? Would the tension in the lead line from the fall remain (aside from the three feet of allowed travel in the system due to the length of the Klemheist)? How would the lead line be able to recover its elasticity in order to work properly in the event of a second fall? If the lead line will slide back down through the Klemheist, then it won’t be tight on the lead line when the pitch is cleaned and therefore, won’t act as intended to protect the lead line against sharp edges.

I also don’t see how the Klemheist would stop the lead line from abrading over an edge during a lead fall. Directional runnering seems about the only way to prevent the lead line from touching sharp edges.

http://www.climbing.com/Pages/Techtip_pages/194/image_pages.194/TT-194-aid-fig01.html

http://www.climbing.com/Pages/Techtip_pages/194/image_pages.194/TT-194-aid-fig02.html

In conclusion, I guess the only benefit of the “re-belay” system is that you don’t have the entire weight of the lead line pulling on you during the pitch (NBD really) and the lead line is protected during cleaning, PROVIDED you don’t fall on the lead. But if you fall… Do the advantages out-weight the disadvantages? Buy a Stratos and use duct tape.

The picture (above, right) is pitch 7 of the Straw, correct? Why do you tag your entire rack (including #4 Camalots) on a pitch that is mostly bolts and, according to ST, requires nothing larger than a 1.5” cam? Isn’t that time consuming and a pain in the arse?


tenn_dawg


Apr 24, 2003, 7:18 AM
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Damn, I feel like a little kid arguing… don’t I have homework/finals to work on…?

This is a discussion, not an argument. There is a difference. Discussions tend to be a hell of alot more productive. Arguments are what you have with demanding hiefer girlfriends.

Anyway, here's a point. If you use a Gri-Gri for you belay device, using rebelays keeps the backup knot loop from feeding through the Gri-Gri inadvertently. The wieght of 20' of lead rope will cause the lead rope to slowly slide through the grigri if you are using backup knots.

Travis


passthepitonspete


Apr 24, 2003, 8:15 AM
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Glad he remembered that bit! [In reply to]
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Frig. I'm glad you mentioned that. I totally forgot.

The original purpose I started using the things was to keep the rope from pulling through my Grigri and putting unwanted and unnoticed slack between me and my belay! The benefits of the backup I only realized later as I was cleaning. It didn't even occur to me at first.

Yes, I anticipated the question about the rope slipping through the Klemheist and potentially burning it or glazing it. Although I have considered this, I have yet to see it happen despite a few whippers, in my experience of soloing six Grade VI's. The slight risk of slight glazing is more than offset by the obvious benefits of rebelaying the rope, at least in my opinion and experience.

I cannot imagine a whipper so fierce that it would stretch the rope twenty feet! One benefit of the rebelaying is that you can remove some of the stretch from the rope. The exact amount of tension you put in is more of an art than a science. You need enough tension to stretch the rope a bit so that the Klemheist "bites", but not so tight that the rope will be rubbing above the rebelay. I frequently put my long prusiks on the end of long slings, but I certainly didn't on that one photo, did I? I am confident that I have replicated this experiment enough in a[n] [un]controlled environment to be confident of my results, but if you doubt them, then either don't do it, or buy REALLY long prusiks [which you won't like because you will have to attach them below the next piece down].

And when you arrive on the summit having depreciated your rope in any way whatsoever, you will have done so by your own choice. [Though plenty of duct tape could work if you are lucky, I literally cringe when I imagine my nearly-static-since-it's-weighted lead rope rubbing against some unseen edge nearly two hundred feet above me as I'm jugging it!]

Bottom line is this: don't knock it til you've tried it. Those who have tried it like Travis appear to like it.

When I started my solo of The Trip - the last time I bought a new lead rope - I started with a new lead rope. And because of the rebelaying, I finished with a new rope, too. It absolutely positively amazed me that my lead rope could look so new after soloing a big wall!

In reply to:
"Why do so many of the aid discussions on this forum revolve around soloing when most of
us prefer to climb with a partner?"

Full-on Hoser accent: "Because this is, like, a post about solo climbing systems, eh?"

Duh.


copperhead


Apr 24, 2003, 10:09 AM
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Death [In reply to]
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Neither of you answered my questions and you have ignored my key points. No comment? Hmmm, why is that?

Copperhead wrote:
In reply to:
...then a prusik “re-belay” can be used, PROVIDED it is rigged properly, i.e. long enough.

I retract this statement.


PTPP wrote:
In reply to:
Bottom line is this: don't knock it til you've tried it.

I won’t try it because I don’t like it. I’ll let someone else prove that it is unsafe. Common sense. Is wall climbing supposed to be like high school math where you guess and check everything or is it based on sound theories and facts that have been thought out or proven FIRST, and then put to the test? That seems like an awfully silly way to find out that something doesn’t work. Are you going to keep trying new ideas until they kill you? Re-belaying is DEATH and you are going to get someone killed!!!!!

My ropes seem to last quite a few walls without re-belaying; I generally climb with a partner.

In reply to:
One benefit of the rebelaying is that you can remove some of the stretch from the rope.

That is a benefit? Why don’t you lead on a static line then? Hellooooooo…?

In reply to:
I cannot imagine a whipper so fierce that it would stretch the rope twenty feet!

http://shorelinemtn.com/store/charts/Rope%20Specs.htm
Elongations are based on an 80kg weight.

This chart is from Shoreline Mountain products. They are technical experts (Tom is an engineer) and can answer any of your questions. Shoreline is also a great place to buy gear.

You can visit Shoreline here:

http://www.shorelinemtn.com/store/home.asp

Ok. I’ll ask the question again. “If you start to jug on a fixed 200-foot dynamic lead line (from the ground), how much does the rope stretch before it will completely hold your weight?” And that is just body-weight. Look at the chart. How much do you think a rope can stretch in a large fall?

We didn’t mention the extra extension of the lead line during a fall as a result of your dynamic belay and the upward movement of the haulbags…

In reply to:
Full-on Hoser accent: "Because this is, like, a post about solo climbing systems, eh?"

Duh.

I said FORUM, not post.

Pete, I could care less how dangerous your systems are when YOU go climbing. If you become talus bait, then that’s your problem. The part that bothers me is that you strongly encourage inexperienced climbers on this site that your way is the way to do things, regardless of the true safety factors involved. What works for you may not work for the rest of us. Please provide info that has been used and accepted my multiple solo climbers (who know what they are doing) or experts in the industry, instead of stuff that works for just you and your cronies. At least you can acknowledge the fact that some of your systems have flaws, some of which can potentially be quite dangerous.


Should beginners learn how to aid climb by soloing first or by climbing with a partner first?


RE-BELAYING IS DEATH!!!!!


Ps - If you are so worried about the rope sliding through your Gri-gri, then why don't you use a clove-hitch? It's not like you're free climbing a lot.


alpinelynx


Apr 24, 2003, 10:22 AM
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very well put.


roscoclimber


Apr 24, 2003, 11:22 AM
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Re: Glad he remembered that bit! [In reply to]
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Dear Doctor. Thanks for the great pictures and text explanation of the Solo - Tag system. I read your original description over a year ago; and waited a long time for the updated drawing. I intend to practice this technique this coming weekend!! Thanks.

However, I must vehemently disagree with the wisdom of using prussiks to re-belay the lead line while climbing. This is simply foolhearty. You MAY correctly judge the necessary length of the prussik to account for upward rope movement during a fall; or you MAY NOT.

If one judges incorrectly and installs a prussik that is too short, the prussik will attempt to tighten around the quickly moving rope (a rope that is also getting thinner as it decelerates the falling climber). This creates the same rope "burn-through" scenario that Royal Robbins luckily survived and other climbers didn't survive.

As you know, but others may not; Robbins connected his harness to the lead rope with prussiks (No gri-gris back then). Upon falling, the prussiks didn't "cleanly" grip the rope as hoped; rather they almost burned throught the rope.

Your system simply MOVES the location of this fatal technique from the harness to somewhere along the belay chain. But the fatal flaw is still there.

One of the main motivations for the prussik re-belay is to protect the lead rope from abrasion (sharp corners) while cleaning the pitch. Is there another way to accomplish this?? Of course.

Once I finish a pitch, I connect two standard 2 foot runners from my harness to the lead rope. As I rap the haul line, these runners keep me in close proximity to the lead rope no matter what the overhang or angle. If the lead rope needs to be "re-belayed" (say just below an overhang), I do it while rapping the pitch instead of while climbing the pitch!!

I use two runners while rappelling so that I can "pass" the protection pieces without lossing contact with the lead rope. When I come to a piece of protection, I move one runner from above the piece to below the piece. While making this transition, the second runner keeps me attached to the lead line even in overhanging terrain. Once the first runner is re-connected to the lead rope below the piece, I then move the second runner below the piece.

The above sequence sounds time consuming because of all the pieces that may need to be passed. Typically this is not the case. Usually the lead rope only needs to be "re-belayed" once or twice per pitch IF AT ALL. Remember, one only needs to re-belay just below an obvious "wear" point such as an overhang or other sharp edged feature. Once you establish the necessary re-belay(s), it is no longer necessary to stay connected to the lead line. At that point I disconnect the runners from the lead line and continue rapping the haul line to the bottom belay anchor.

I think the above strategy provides the optimal solution. Most importantly, it doesn't risk rope damage/failure during a leader fall. Seconcly, it accomplishes the goal of protecting the lead rope from sharp edges while cleaning.

We're all big boys and girls and we'll make our own decisions regarding climbing strategies and techniques. Normally I am loath to pronounce someone's style or technique as "wrong". In this case however, you are close to if not over the line that separates "bad" technique from "wrong" technique.

This technique is so dangerous that while you may like it, you should NOT be promoting it. While 95% of your suggested techniques are smart and inovative; this idea is shall I say; "not so smart". Your Wall-Flower technique is merely silly, but that suggestion won't get someone killed. Prussik Re-belays will get someone killed.

Other Aid Forum readers can draw their own conclusions.






:D


passthepitonspete


Apr 24, 2003, 11:24 AM
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In reply to:
RE-BELAYING IS DEATH!!!!!

I emphatically disagree, as long as it's done correctly.

I'm familiar with Royal Robbins' Barnett System and have commented on it elsewhere, but I disagree with rosco's exact analogy.

I agree with every word that glock has written below me [I was editing], and my limited experience supports this. The most fundamental advice that glock offers is to think for yourself. Don't take MY word for it!

Rebelaying the lead rope using a clove hitch on a piece of gear has been advocated for a long time. I've seen it in climbing magazines and in aid climbing texts. Maybe you have, too. They advocate using a long sling. Fair enough. But there is still the possibility of reducing the fall factor by this sling not being long enough.

Why has nobody ever complained about rebelaying with clove hitches, and deemed it horrifically unsafe? Perhaps people who have never tried it should write the editors of these publications and tell them it is wrong.

The benefit of using the klemheist setup is that during a fall the knot will pull through the carabiner and the rope will slip through. This is not entirely Big Wall Theory because it has been tested by me, but I'll admit the test sampling may be too small to be fully representative. But I have soloed six Grade VI's while doing this, and I have taken some biggish whippers, and in my experience this system has worked superbly without reducing the fall factor.

But that's in my experience. The jury is still out. You could still die by following my advice. In fact, I can guarantee you that if you follow my advice, you will die, though it may not be a result of following my advice. You could die in bed of old age, too, but DIE YOU WILL!

Then again, perhaps my system is seriously flawed. In fact, I would go so far to say that if you take the advice of some idiot in an internet forum who may or may not know what he's talking about, then you could well be your own worst enemy. You sure as hell shouldn't be up on a big wall alone. Choosing yourself as a partner in this situation could be one of those rare occasions where one fool is worse than two.

THINK for yourself before you do stuff - any stuff - and in fact, before you follow one more word of my advice, you had best click here to understand precisely what you are getting yourself into!

And if you don't click the link above, that is your problem, mate, not mine.

As for rebelaying your lead rope, you will have to admit that given a long enough prusik sling, there is no disadvantage to the system. Perhaps I'll make more of a point of putting the prusiks on longer slings as I go higher up the pitch.

There is merit to roscoclimber's suggestion about installing the rebelays while cleaning. While this would be fairly simple on a straight pitch, its difficulty increases exponentially with overhanging and traversing pitches. But if you can actually do it, it may well be the Better Way.


glockaroo


Apr 24, 2003, 11:47 AM
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In reply to:
As you know, but others may not; Robbins connected his harness to the lead rope with prussiks (No gri-gris back then). Upon falling, the prussiks didn't "cleanly" grip the rope as hoped; rather they almost burned throught the rope.

Your system simply MOVES the location of this fatal technique from the harness to somewhere along the belay chain. But the fatal flaw is still there.

IIRC the failure was at the prusik slings themselves, not the rope. That old self-belay method had the climber attached to the rope solely via the prusik. If a modern solo rebelay sling gets burned through, the lead rope is essentially unscathed except perhaps for some glazing, and the climber is still connected to the rope via the grigri/Silent Partner/clove hitch.

In reply to:
One of the main motivations for the prussik re-belay is to protect the lead rope from abrasion (sharp corners) while cleaning the pitch.

If the edge is sharp enough to make cleaning scary... isn't it just as dangerous to be LEADING ON IT? I'm talking about sharp edges, not just abrasive ones. This is a case where you look at the unavoidable death-edge and say "well, rebelaying MAY increase my fall factor by 0.333, but a lead fall over that edge WILL SLICE MY ROPE....". What to do? Rebelay the damn rope.

Judgement is involved through all of this, but to make a blanket statement that rebelaying is ALWAYS a bad choice is incorrect.


copperhead


Apr 24, 2003, 12:51 PM
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Re: Death [In reply to]
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PTPP wrote:
In reply to:
But there is still the possibility of reducing the fall factor by this sling not being long enough.


But I have soloed six Grade VI's while doing this, and I have taken some biggish whippers, and in my experience this system has worked superbly without reducing the fall factor.

I think you mean INCREASE fall factor.


Glockaroo wrote:
In reply to:
If the edge is sharp enough to make cleaning scary... isn't it just as dangerous to be LEADING ON IT? I'm talking about sharp edges, not just abrasive ones. This is a case where you look at the unavoidable death-edge and say "well, rebelaying MAY increase my fall factor by 0.333, but a lead fall over that edge WILL SLICE MY ROPE....". What to do? Rebelay the damn rope.

Can you please explain how re-belaying the lead line will prevent the rope from touching sharp edges while you are on lead?


glockaroo


Apr 24, 2003, 1:42 PM
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In reply to:
Can you please explain how re-belaying the lead line will prevent the rope from touching sharp edges while you are on lead?

This is about the best illustration I could find online on short notice:

http://www.climbing.com/...94_images/rope-4.gif

Not shown in this pic is that while soloing above the sharp edge, tie the rope off to an omnidirectional piece ASAP. Such placements aren't always available of course, especially on tough aid, but you take what you can get. When you do tie off to the upper piece, do so with a screamer (maybe a couple in series) to minimize the unavoidable increase in fall factor.

During the fall the upper piece(s) will hopefully take the load and keep all tension off the rope going over the edge. Then again, they might not. But it beats doing nothing and ENSURING that the lead rope WILL be loaded over said edge during a fall.


tenn_dawg


Apr 24, 2003, 1:46 PM
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Yeah, but what Bryan was saying was that if you take a fall on lead, the rope will still be pulled tight across the sharp edge.

Good illustration however.

Travis


passthepitonspete


Apr 24, 2003, 2:18 PM
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Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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C.H. was correct above, I meant "increase"

Aha! THAT is one of the photos to which I was referring above. The way you protect it from cutting on a sharp edge if you fall is to put another rebelay above the sharp edge.

So now you have two rebelays - one above the sharpness, and one below the sharpness. Above protects the rope in event of lead fall, below protects the rope while jugging.

BUT

Notice how there is a direct point of attachment to the piece? This rebelay, without being on a long sling, is quite certain to increase the fall factor. [Said it right that time, eh?] In this situation, a long prusik rebelay in place of the one shown would do nothing to protect the rope against the sharp edge in the event of a leader fall.

BUT

So sharp-looking is that edge, you might well consider setting up a whole new mini-belay above it to take an upward pull! Which, of course, resets your fall factor. Better apply a screamer, eh?




What's important to understand is this:

Every situation is unique, and the Better Way for one situation may not be the same for another.

There is no panacea. The only thing that will keep you alive is your own head, and your ability to become a good problem-solver.

If you can't figure this stuff out while you're up there, you might want to consider staying on the ground.


randomcaller


Apr 24, 2003, 3:56 PM
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Long time lurker, first time poster. Thinking about my own rebelay practices, and I’d like to ask some questions.

Bryan, a post of yours not long ago showed a picture of adding a screamer to the belay to introduce some dynamic qualities when solo. Why won’t that work for a rebelay also??? Why can’t you mitigate the loss of dynamics in a rebelay, the same way you do with a belay?

Pete, I never have understood what the advantages of the using the prussik is vs a clove hitch on a long sling. So I always use the clove hitch. What are the advantages again?

Rosco, I like the idea of adding the rebelays on rappel. But that doesn’t help me if I’m self belaying with a gri gri and need to keep the rope from self feeding. Maybe I’ll have to go back to the clove hitch. Unless somebody has an idea to solve the self feeding problem.

The situation in the picture does look like a bad setup for a leader fall, but seems like adding a long sling would solve the problem. Isn’t that how you would normally deal with a sharp edge for most leading situations regardless if your solo, belayed, free climbing or aid climbing?

How about setting rebelays on stoppers that won’t hold an upward pull, that would give you the advantage of a rebelay and keep the dynamics in play. What do you think about that? It seems like a viable option, if available. What do you guys think?

Thanks guys.


passthepitonspete


Apr 24, 2003, 4:15 PM
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Re: Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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I think you're thinking, which is a VGT.

Advantage of prusik vs. clove hitch is that it does not bend the rope and hence reduce the lead rope's strength, and because the klemheist is a one-way knot, and in the event of a whipper which creates enough upward pull to pull upward on the rebelay piece, the rope will [in my experience] slide [without glazing the rope].

The idea about a removable piece that would pop with an upward pull sounds just too good to be true! Judicious and prudent use of a long prusik, further lengthened by a sling when necessary, is the way I prefer to do it.

When you speak of the "self-feeding problem" of a Grigri, do you mean while solo leading, whereby the weight of the rope pulls it through the Grigri putting unwanted and dangerous slack between you and your lower belay? If so, the rebelays solve this problem, because the weight of the rope is held by them. Put one on every twenty or thirty feet, and you'll have no self-feeding problems on lead, mate. [If this is indeed what you meant]


copperhead


Apr 24, 2003, 9:53 PM
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PTPP wrote:
In reply to:
The way you protect it from cutting on a sharp edge if you fall is to put another rebelay above the sharp edge.

So now you have two rebelays - one above the sharpness, and one below the sharpness. Above protects the rope in event of lead fall, below protects the rope while jugging.

If the above re-belay also uses a Klemheist, then the rope will slide through both Klemheists and abrade on the sharp edge. The lower Klemheist will protect the cleaner but the above Klemheist is extraneous. Any friction caused by the slippage of the lead line through the Klemheists (however many there are on the pitch) will increase impact force at both the top anchor point (piece holding the fall) and the climber, but diminish the force at the belay (as is also the case with rope-drag on the rock and rope-drag through biners). Minimize lead line friction (with runners) throughout the pitch to keep your lead system as dynamic as possible.

In reply to:
So sharp-looking is that edge, you might well consider setting up a whole new mini-belay above it to take an upward pull! Which, of course, resets your fall factor. Better apply a screamer, eh?

This is the only way that you can truly protect an edge while on lead… if you can find any solid placements and if you are soloing. It seems that this would be quite difficult unless you were on a bolt ladder (not a rivet ladder) or you were climbing a splitter A1/C1 crack. How often is this the case, especially on hard aid routes? How long will it take to set up?

Random wrote:
In reply to:
Bryan, a post of yours not long ago showed a picture of adding a screamer to the belay to introduce some dynamic qualities when solo. Why won’t that work for a rebelay also??? Why can’t you mitigate the loss of dynamics in a rebelay, the same way you do with a belay?

Yes, this is possible but I am trying to figure out the differences between the two scenarios (i.e. re-belay w/ Screamer and short length of lead line vs. no re-belay w/ no Screamer and long length of lead line). I don’t have enough resources and info to calculate it yet but I’m working on it…

I will try to answer this question on T-Dawg’s new solo thread.


PTPP wrote:
In reply to:
Advantage of prusik vs. clove hitch is that it does not bend the rope and hence reduce the lead rope's strength,…

NBD because I solo on a clove-hitch and use them at belays. The clove-hitch at the belay end of the lead line is subjected to at least 1/3 less impact force than the clove-hitch at the climber’s harness (due to friction in the system).



Ps – The illustration in Glockaroo’s post above came from a Tech Tip on Climbing Magazine’s website. It was used to show how to avoid sharp edges when ascending a FIXED LINE, and not a lead climbing situation. I linked two other pictures from their site (in one of my earlier posts) but didn’t post the actual images here because they are not mine. What’s the deal with posting other peoples’ images? Is it ethically ‘cool’ to grab stuff from wherever and post it here? Copyrights? At least we can provide a reference, like any worthy scientific publication, right? Cite your references and provide a link!


glockaroo


Apr 24, 2003, 10:27 PM
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In reply to:
Ps – The illustration in Glockaroo’s post above came from a Tech Tip on Climbing Magazine’s website. It was used to show how to avoid sharp edges when ascending a FIXED LINE, and not a lead climbing situation. I linked two other pictures from their site (in one of my earlier posts) but didn’t post the actual images here because they are not mine. What’s the deal with posting other peoples’ images? Is it ethically ‘cool’ to grab stuff from wherever and post it here? Copyrights? At least we can provide a reference, like any worthy scientific publication, right? Cite your references and provide a link!

1) I thoroughly explained that the pic did not show all that I wanted, it was just a good place to start. I thoroughly explained how to ADAPT the image shown for a solo lead situation. Why do you ignore the obvious? It seems all you want to do is argue.

2) the images are being used in what is perhaps the most obvious case of noncommercial "fair reference" that you could ask for. WTF are you now, a professional publisher?

3) right-click on the pic, choose "properties" and you'll see the Climbing mag URL. There's your reference and link. No skullduggery, no pirating conspiracy.

Dude, you spend so much energy picking nits for a reason to bitch that it's getting tiresome. Apparently you have some agenda that goes far beyond a reasonable discussion of aid technique.

Trust me, we have all received your less-than-implicit message that Pete sucks and you don't. Fine, transmission understood. Now can we get back to sharing tech info that might help each other?


coyoteblues


Apr 25, 2003, 12:29 AM
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In reply to:
Apparently you have some agenda that goes far beyond a reasonable discussion of aid technique.

Hmmm........, does he or not? I suppose it's possible he also has another agenda, but even if he does, he surely isn't the first! :lol:

In the end, it's not whether you win or lose, but how much fun you have playing the game.


copperhead


Apr 25, 2003, 12:39 AM
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1) Agreed. You did explain the illustration.

2) I was simply asking a question because I don’t know how IP and copyright laws work on the net I could care less what you do; I’m just trying to figure out if I should do it too.

“http://www.climbing.com All contents of this site © 2000-2002 Climbing Magazine
A PRIMEDIA Enthusiast Publication”

3) Thanks for the tips but someone was kind enough to fill me in on this a while ago…Polarwid? Hopefully your tips will be of use to others who are unaware.

4) Yes, I have gotten myself into trouble on more than one occasion, whether it be at a job or at school or this or that. I am a meticulous bastard who will debate something to death, given the motivation or interest. My nit picking caused a few problems at A5 but at least it led to the instigation of the first quality control program. Maybe I spent too much time with my buddies who I grew up with that are now lawyers or maybe it’s too much science. Maybe I just like to argue; it is fun. How about we talk about society and population? Am I an a-ho for pointing out flaws in Pete’s systems? Jeeze, the guy sticks his neck out so far, he’s bound to catch some flak. Sharing ideas on a public forum opens the door to praise as well as ridicule. You ought to see me when I get on the road…

5) It’s not a matter of who is more rad; it’s a matter of climbing systems, physics, safety, and efficiency. Style may be personal. Pete is an accomplished climber. I just happen to disagree with some of his systems and attitudes.


In reply to:
Now can we get back to sharing tech info that might help each other?

Sure. That’s why we’re all here. LEARNING. I’ll try to concentrate on info rather than slander. So much for the Deli…

Cheers,

Bryan


copperhead


Apr 25, 2003, 12:40 AM
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Re: Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In the end, it's not whether you win or lose, but how much fun you have playing the game.

Ozzy would disagree but that is beside the point. I'm having a lot of fun and am learning. Hope all of you are too.


tenn_dawg


Apr 25, 2003, 8:52 AM
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Re: Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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In reply to:
So much for the Deli…

Hahaha :lol:

Oh, and no rush on the other thread. There's a bunch of questions. There are some interesting ideas bouncing around over there already, anyway.

Travis


passthepitonspete


Apr 25, 2003, 9:21 AM
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Aaaaaahhhh, the deli....... [In reply to]
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Aaaaaaaaahhhhh, the deli.......

Of walking in to buy beer, of being carded, and of telling them that I am twenty-two years older than the drinking age.....

Twenty days and I'm there.........


timstich


Apr 27, 2003, 6:44 AM
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Re: Death [In reply to]
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*deletred*


copperhead


Apr 27, 2003, 9:45 AM
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Wally is rad [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Wally Barker told me that he used this tagging system on his solos of The Ranch, Gulf Stream, Reticent, Plastic Surgery Disaster, and one more he told me and I've forgotten.

I don't mean to throw more logs on the fire but Wally does not tag. Ask him. He does, however, tie his haul line onto the end of his lead line, hence the "continuous loop." If I remember correctly, Kaos would be the fifth.


passthepitonspete


Apr 27, 2003, 10:42 PM
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Yes, he said KAOS was the other one. [In reply to]
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Subject:
RE: Slides and stuff
Date:
Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:30:12 -0500
From:
"Wally Barker"
To:
""Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok'





Pete,

Thanks for the info

With regards to "continuous loops", I have used them since the Spring of 1992. Of course, I had no idea what they were called since chongo didn't invent them till the late 90's. Anyway they are the shit. You can write that.


socalclimber


Apr 30, 2003, 6:30 AM
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Re: Yes, he said KAOS was the other one. [In reply to]
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Wally's form of the continuous loop is different than yours. He simply stacks both the lead and the haul line in the same bag. Then ties the haul line to the end of the lead line. As he leads, the haul line comes up on it's own. He doesn't tag. As he puts it, on hard aid you don't have 50 cams on you, so he brings everything with him.


passthepitonspete


Jul 24, 2003, 6:44 AM
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Observations from my recent big wall solo [In reply to]
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I used the Continuous Loop with Solo Tagging to solo Lost In America last month - exactly as described above - and it worked flawlessly. I did not use any Double Tagging.

I actually completed the route fairly fast using this technique. Despite taking a week to do it, I never - EVER - started climbing before noon. Coffee to drink, you know. And I never - EVER - climbed or hauled or cleaned in the dark. Beer to drink, you know. [Just because I spend a lot of time on the wall does not mean that I climb slowly - I merely prefer to savour the vertical camping experience. It is, after all, a holiday]

I took Bryan's advice and used longer Klemheists on my lead rope rebelays in order to not worsen my Fall Factor - not necessarily tied with longer prusik slings, but at least put on the end of long runners.

The system was put to the test at least twice when I whipped! Let me assure you most emphatically that the Klemheist knots will slip during a fall as described above. The rope does not get glazed as some have suggested. The ability of the rope to slip through the Klemheist during a long fall makes the system superior to the traditional method of rebelaying the lead rope with a clove hitch, which has the potential to worsen your Fall Factor [and weaken your lead rope with an unnecessary knot in it]

It is beyond my comprehension that anyone would not rebelay their rope while aid soloing! To me it is fundamental. I could not imagine doing otherwise.

The first benefit is that there is no unwanted [and dangerous-as-hell!] slack between you and your lower belay station, since the weight of the rope will not be pulling rope through your Grigri. [And again, I can't imagine using any other device except a Grigri for aid soloing, with the possible exception of the Silent Partner, which I haven't tried since it's expensive, and my Grigri works perfectly fine] There were a few times where I forgot to rebelay soon enough, and was rather horrified to reach down and discover five or ten feet of excess slack! Sheesh.

The second benefit is that if you do it right, there is no abrasion on your lead rope when you are jugging and cleaning the pitch. My lead rope emerged unscathed - not so much as a scratch.

Rebelaying is something of an art, and requires practising. On hard aid routes, the hard aid can come at you quickly - right off the belay - and you don't want to find yourself soloing in a bad Fall Factor situation. Frequently I would start my Continuous Loop right at my pig [backed up first to the anchor, of course, so as not to be belayed from my Docking Tether!], and I would put a Screamer on the first piece of the anchor, so at least I had that much rope to fall on if I blew it right off the belay. I would also add a tightened Klemheist right on the anchor to keep the lead rope oriented upwards on top of the pigs.

I would install the first Klemheist before the first rub point, and I would stretch the lead rope a bit tight with this one [think about it.....]

The next Klemheist I would place using just a bit of slack - around a foot or foot-and-a-half - so that when I was cleaning that section below it, my weight would be taken by the Klemheist immediately above [think about it....]

Subsequent Klemheists would all be placed kind of "re-using" that same foot or two of slack, but without actually adding any additional slack to the system. It's important that this slack be there, otherwise when you're cleaning, the rebelay immediately above you won't take your weight.

So you can imagine the rope tight from my pigs to the first directional Klemheist, continuing tight to my first rebelay Klemheist, and then with a foot or two of slack in it between my first rebelay and my second rebelay, and continuing thereafter.

Specifically, when I was installing say my fourth Klemheist rebelay, I would stretch the rope tight against the anchor, tighten the Klemheist into its holding position, and then once the knot was installed on the rope in the proper tightness and orientation, I would slide the knot a foot or two towards me to add the appropriate amount of slack. If you don't "pre-tighten" your rebelay Klemheists in this fashion, then they will slip when you are jugging and cleaning, and the rebelay benefit won't work.

In summary, I have used this system precisely as described above to solo seven mostly hard Grade VI's, and will continue to use it. Not rebelaying your lead rope while aid soloing is - in my experience - just plain dumb.



I am Dr. Piton,

and I think this system is ETS!


Partner rrrADAM


Jul 24, 2003, 6:50 AM
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Re: Observations from my recent big wall solo [In reply to]
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All that just to "bump" your name back to the top ??? You answered this on page one, with even more detail.

Why not just do like others and reply with "bump".


mikeehartley


Jul 25, 2003, 8:56 PM
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Re: Observations from my recent big wall solo [In reply to]
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Here's what I've gone to on this topic of rebelays versus fall factor. When soloing, to keep the weight of the rope from accidentally pulling slack through my belay device I indeed do put a klemheist on a piece. BUT I use a "runner" made of 4mm bungie/shock cord and pretty darned long at that. It will keep the belay rope in place while climbing but will stretch/break during a hard fall. It certainly could put enough upwards force to pull the piece its attached to out. That is still a risk but a dimensioned one (I hope).

To address the issue of the rope rubbing on a sharp edge while jugging I agree with others that this is best managed during the lead with directionals or while on rappel.

Lemme know what you think.

PS - sure a Klemheist is designed to pull in one direction but I've pulled on them "backwards" rigging oily 3/8" cable also and had loads of 800 lbs (measured with a dynamometer) with no slippage. It really seems to be determined by the size of cord/webbing and number of raps. I wouldn't blindedly count on one slipping in the "reverse" direction.


mikeehartley


Jul 25, 2003, 9:01 PM
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Re: Observations from my recent big wall solo [In reply to]
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"That is still a risk but a dimensioned one (I hope)."

So easy to miss these damned things. Try "diminished" instead.


trad_man


Jul 25, 2003, 11:16 PM
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Re: Looking down the barrel of a Glock [In reply to]
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damn guys!!!!!! you are so awesome!!! and i used to think that getting to the top of the climb and transferring the rope threw the anchors on a lil ole sport climb was confusing lol props to all your Aid climbers twice :D and you pete i bet it takes a lil bit to type all that


ricardol


Aug 11, 2003, 11:51 PM
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Re: Looking down the barrel of a Glock [In reply to]
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i'll throw my 2 cents into this discussion too .. only because i have 1 data point to add .. not because i know what i am talking about (i dont) .. i just have direct experience with re-belays and how they react in a small fall on C1.

I was soloing a 150' C1 pitch. About the 100' mark i had rebelayed the rope 2x already. the 1st rebelay at about the 50' mark, and the second about 80' mark. each rebelay prussik was made of 6' of 5mm cord (so the loop is 3' long).

I then took a small whipper when i popped a cam, the fall was about 8 feet long. (the last piece was at my feet - since i had top-stepped the last piece).

.. while dangling after the fall i looked down at the re-belay pieces, and at each one the prussik had moved up to right below the carabiner on the piece ..

perfect! -- no higher factor fall .. and a great benefit while leading since it kept the rope from creeping through the grigri ..

.. so take this comment for what it is.. 1 data point .. i will continue to rebelay my solo aid leads .. perhaps longer prussiks in the future .. but 3 foot loops worked fine this time.

-- ricardo


Partner coylec


Jul 8, 2004, 7:55 PM
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Re: Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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Did my first solo-aid work. Lots of fun. Did two pitches, both C1 with some cam hooks thrown in for good measure. The first, I was concentrating on making sure my belay was functioniong. The second pitch was concentrating on making sure its was efficient. What did I add, you ask ... "rebelays" of course.

During the first pitch, I noticed the rope starting to slip through the gri-gri. So, I decided to try out the "rebelays". Why are they in quotations? Because they aren't really starting over the belay. Couple of points: (1) you are not using prusik knots, you're using a klemhiest (which will slip, see Pete and Ricardo's posts above). (2) They are merely holding the weight of the rope up to the piece, rather than streching the rope to its full extension (force on rope during fall > weight of rope).

A couple of benefits that I immediately noticed:
(1) ANCHOR - I'm using a cordalette set up for an upward pull (tree, root, tri-cam). Using the "rebelays", I was able to make sure everythign was oriented in the proper direction. The first time, I don't know if stuff rotated ...
(2) BELAY - No more slippage. Plus, when I tightened up the gri gri because I really throught I was going to fall (badly placed cam hook), I didn't have to do nearly as much work.

A couple of notes regarding the "rebelay":
(1) The first rebelay is to make sure your anchor is going to be facing the right way and everything in the event of a fall. You don't want to have any slack, so pull the rope tight.
(2) Each subsequent rebelay will have slack in it (a foot or so).
(a) Why? When you are cleaning (coming back up this line), you're going to have your weight on the rebelay instead of your anchor at the top fo the pitch. You want this slack so you that you don't weight the higher pieces.
(b) This is the real saver of your rope. While your leading up, the only time you're going to really abrade your line is if/when you fall. However, the damage occurs while you're cleaning, swinging around trying to clean. The rebelays mean that instead of sliding 170 ft of rope around, you're only moving around the distance between you and the next rebelay.
(c) The exact amount of tension on it is going to differ based on a variety of factors, including what you're making the klemhiest out of, your rope, your weight -- like Pete said, it's more of an art than a science.

The biggest objection to this system is that "rebelays are death" ... nice claim, but lacking in a warrant or example (remember the Toulmin (sp?)model?). The best warrants I could find were that it would increase the fall factor (which could have an negative impact towards the probablity of a piece blowing). However, as evidenced by Ricardo and Pete's experience (few data points, but better than nothing), it appears that in the event that there actually IS an upward pull on the klemhiest -- an assymmetric "one-way" knot unlike a prusik which is symmetrical -- (1) the rope does indeed slip and (2) there is no glazing. This appears to disprove the claim. This "upward pull on the klemheist" scenario will only occur if the klemhiest loop is too short -- easily avoided by attaching the klemhiest to a long runner. Note that the potential of this problem occuring increases the higher you are up on the pitch - a lead fall on more rope up high will result in greater rope stretch and equal a great lift on the klemheist. In other words, put short klemheists down low on the pitch, and use longer ones up high, even extending them with a runner near the top. The Robbins scenario is also a little scary, but several differences exist: (1) the fall is not held by a prusik knot. (2) a prusik knot is not used. Pete uses the term prusik for a generic friction hitch -- in this scenario, each of the "prusiks" is actually a klemhiest.

Conclusion: The rebelay system provides a number of benefits, including increased security at both the anchor and the belay, without adding any disadvantages. Based on a cost-benefit analysis as it pertains to safety, the benefits of increased security at the belay and anchor, as well as less wear on the lead line, more than offset any risk that could be imagined from a malfunctioning klemhiest.

coylec


kevinhansen


Jun 12, 2008, 7:33 PM
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Re: [coylec] Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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Sorry I've got to bump this so I can find it again.
forgive me.


c4c


Jun 12, 2008, 7:35 PM
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Re: [kevinhansen] Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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I thought Dr. Piton was dead?


the_climber


Jun 13, 2008, 9:35 AM
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Re: [c4c] Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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c4c wrote:
I thought Dr. Piton was dead?

No, Pete is very much alive.
His account on here on the otherhand isn't.


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