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passthepitonspete


Apr 23, 2003, 6:06 PM
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Bryan's points are valid [In reply to]
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All of copperhead's points are valid, based on what he sees.

1. I use the other hole in my jug to stick in my adjustable fifi which I use when cleaning, and as I have described in the post "Dr. Piton - cleaning with two jugs is a pain etc." The maillon rapide I prefer is smaller and more compact than a locker.

2. It is true that the prusiks appear short in these two photos, however I wish to assure you they are not. Both photos are foreshortened by the camera angle.

3. Most significantly, the Klemheist knot that attaches the "prusik" sling to the rope is a one-way knot. If I fall, the knot gets pulled up through the crab, and will indeed allow the rope to slip. This has never proved to be a problem for me. Honest! The prusik slides up through the crab and then the rope slips. I have yet to rip a piece by pulling it upwards with this method, but there is always a first time.

How do I know this system works?

Cuz it's been tested - the hard way - many times, I confess.

But there is merit to Bryan's argument of having a longer prusik sling. In the upper photo, the sling on the cam IS long - you can't see it as it's hidden in the crack.

Good analyses. Geez, you guys are writing faster than I can write. This is good.

OK, copperhead's next question: you turn the jug ninety-degrees to thumb it open and pop it across a piece when you're cleaning, after which you cinch your adjustable fifi into the hole and crank. [Then back off your Grigri to reduce tension in the rope so you can clean the piece]

What tenn_dawg speaks rightly of is when you are jugging a free-hanging rope - you turn the handle away from you and put your hands over the top caver-style, exactly the same way you would use a Petzl Basic Ascender which of course has no handle.

The REASON I use a handled ascender when cleaning, rather than the Basic, is that I am frequently up against the wall, and like to turn the handle towards me in that instance so I don't bash my knuckles. I use the more compact Basic when caving quite frequently, though the handled one works OK, too.

But when I'm free-hanging Petzl Frog System jugging, handle away and hands on top is the only way to go, and this lard-assed out-of-shape life insurance agent will jump off the couch and race and beat any Yosemite honemaster on a longish free-hanging jug, provided said honemaster is using the standard and extremely-inefficient "Yosemite" jugging system. Believe it or not, it's about three times as fast.

Note: Said Honemaster will kick my lard-ass if the rope is on something less-than-vertical, and not free-hanging.


copperhead


Apr 23, 2003, 7:17 PM
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Ummmmmmmmmmmm... [In reply to]
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Is this thread really about ascender position while jugging, let alone cleaning?

PTPP wrote:
In reply to:
But there is merit to Bryan's argument of having a longer prusik sling. In the upper photo, the sling on the cam IS long - you can't see it as it's hidden in the crack.

Yeah, right. Wide angle lens, foreshortening, whatever. I can see the cam and the biner on the end of the prusik. The prusik is less than two feet in length, MAX! If the Klemheist truly is unidirectional, then why do you argue that the prusik is in fact long enough?

Tenn_Dawg wrote:
In reply to:
I see you point though. It is possible that the prusik would hold, only allowing for aprox. 3 feet of stretch from the lower portion of the rope. However, this disadvantage is not a huge deal when you consider that on the first moves (15 or so) off the belay, you are in the same situation.

15 or so? More like the first 3 or 4 placements (moves). Did you mean first 15 feet above the belay? It IS a huge deal. As the amount of rope in the system increases, the chances of the piece directly below you holding a fall increase as well. Fall factor. Dynamics is your friend. That’s why we have Screamers. A string of dicey hooks (back-cleaned) and a string of dicey heads may be just as sketchy if directly above the belay but given 100 or more feet of rope in the system, they may be quite different. I feel way more comfortable on dicey gear (unless it’s back-cleaned) when I’ve got a bunch of rope between me and my belayer. Almost anything that will hold a good bounce test will hold a one-placement fall near the end of a 200-foot pitch. I’ve had a #1 circle-head hold a one-placement fall (rope, not daisy) with about 90 feet of rope out and I ain’t light.

In reply to:
I think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages however. It is awesome only having 30 feet of dynamic rope stretch to jug when cleaning the pitch. Also, you have the option of protecting your rope from abrasive edges.

Once you take all of the stretch out of the rope when you begin to clean, the rope is relatively static. This is partly due to the friction of the rope running through all of the biners on each of the pieces on the pitch. An exception would be when a pitch traverses and ‘clip-cleaning’ is required; when the rope is again weighted at the end of the traverse, rope stretch must be dealt with, the amount of which is dependent on the remaining length of rope in the pitch.

In reply to:
Do you have any other sugestions to accomplisth this, but allow the rope to retain its full "stretchyness" at the end of the pitch? I'm open to all options.

Nothing in addition to what has already been said. If an edge cannot be padded (rope protectors exist – Mtn. Tools…) and is a serious threat to the lead line, then a prusik “re-belay” can be used, PROVIDED it is rigged properly, i.e. long enough. But then again, this only applies to soloing. Why do so many of the aid discussions on this forum revolve around soloing when most of us prefer to climb with a partner?


Damn, I feel like a little kid arguing… don’t I have homework/finals to work on…?




Is a jugging race in order…? :P
One legged? :wink:


copperhead


Apr 24, 2003, 5:07 AM
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Re: Ummmmmmmmmmmm... [In reply to]
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A few more points:

If the Klemheist will in fact slip when the lead line is pulled upward during a fall, then won’t there be friction between the lead line and the Klemheist? Wouldn’t this friction cause lead line/Klemheist surface damage? Rope glazing or frictional melting? The lead line would be traveling quite quickly during a fall. Aren’t there stories from the old days of people melting prusiks by falling on them? Rope on biner friction = ok but rope on rope friction = bad.

In a vertically oriented system (pictured above, right) the lead line should be able to slip through the Klemheist. Let’s say, for example, that you were to take a whipper later in the pitch and the lead line stretched by 20 feet at the Klemheist point. This would mean that 20 feet of lead line would slide through the Klemheist. Since the Klemheist is a unidirectional knot, how would the lead line be able to slide back down after you had gotten back on the last piece of gear and un-weighted the lead line? Would the tension in the lead line from the fall remain (aside from the three feet of allowed travel in the system due to the length of the Klemheist)? How would the lead line be able to recover its elasticity in order to work properly in the event of a second fall? If the lead line will slide back down through the Klemheist, then it won’t be tight on the lead line when the pitch is cleaned and therefore, won’t act as intended to protect the lead line against sharp edges.

I also don’t see how the Klemheist would stop the lead line from abrading over an edge during a lead fall. Directional runnering seems about the only way to prevent the lead line from touching sharp edges.

http://www.climbing.com/Pages/Techtip_pages/194/image_pages.194/TT-194-aid-fig01.html

http://www.climbing.com/Pages/Techtip_pages/194/image_pages.194/TT-194-aid-fig02.html

In conclusion, I guess the only benefit of the “re-belay” system is that you don’t have the entire weight of the lead line pulling on you during the pitch (NBD really) and the lead line is protected during cleaning, PROVIDED you don’t fall on the lead. But if you fall… Do the advantages out-weight the disadvantages? Buy a Stratos and use duct tape.

The picture (above, right) is pitch 7 of the Straw, correct? Why do you tag your entire rack (including #4 Camalots) on a pitch that is mostly bolts and, according to ST, requires nothing larger than a 1.5” cam? Isn’t that time consuming and a pain in the arse?


tenn_dawg


Apr 24, 2003, 7:18 AM
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Re: Ummmmmmmmmmmm... [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Damn, I feel like a little kid arguing… don’t I have homework/finals to work on…?

This is a discussion, not an argument. There is a difference. Discussions tend to be a hell of alot more productive. Arguments are what you have with demanding hiefer girlfriends.

Anyway, here's a point. If you use a Gri-Gri for you belay device, using rebelays keeps the backup knot loop from feeding through the Gri-Gri inadvertently. The wieght of 20' of lead rope will cause the lead rope to slowly slide through the grigri if you are using backup knots.

Travis


passthepitonspete


Apr 24, 2003, 8:15 AM
Post #30 of 62 (11930 views)
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Glad he remembered that bit! [In reply to]
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Frig. I'm glad you mentioned that. I totally forgot.

The original purpose I started using the things was to keep the rope from pulling through my Grigri and putting unwanted and unnoticed slack between me and my belay! The benefits of the backup I only realized later as I was cleaning. It didn't even occur to me at first.

Yes, I anticipated the question about the rope slipping through the Klemheist and potentially burning it or glazing it. Although I have considered this, I have yet to see it happen despite a few whippers, in my experience of soloing six Grade VI's. The slight risk of slight glazing is more than offset by the obvious benefits of rebelaying the rope, at least in my opinion and experience.

I cannot imagine a whipper so fierce that it would stretch the rope twenty feet! One benefit of the rebelaying is that you can remove some of the stretch from the rope. The exact amount of tension you put in is more of an art than a science. You need enough tension to stretch the rope a bit so that the Klemheist "bites", but not so tight that the rope will be rubbing above the rebelay. I frequently put my long prusiks on the end of long slings, but I certainly didn't on that one photo, did I? I am confident that I have replicated this experiment enough in a[n] [un]controlled environment to be confident of my results, but if you doubt them, then either don't do it, or buy REALLY long prusiks [which you won't like because you will have to attach them below the next piece down].

And when you arrive on the summit having depreciated your rope in any way whatsoever, you will have done so by your own choice. [Though plenty of duct tape could work if you are lucky, I literally cringe when I imagine my nearly-static-since-it's-weighted lead rope rubbing against some unseen edge nearly two hundred feet above me as I'm jugging it!]

Bottom line is this: don't knock it til you've tried it. Those who have tried it like Travis appear to like it.

When I started my solo of The Trip - the last time I bought a new lead rope - I started with a new lead rope. And because of the rebelaying, I finished with a new rope, too. It absolutely positively amazed me that my lead rope could look so new after soloing a big wall!

In reply to:
"Why do so many of the aid discussions on this forum revolve around soloing when most of
us prefer to climb with a partner?"

Full-on Hoser accent: "Because this is, like, a post about solo climbing systems, eh?"

Duh.


copperhead


Apr 24, 2003, 10:09 AM
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Death [In reply to]
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Neither of you answered my questions and you have ignored my key points. No comment? Hmmm, why is that?

Copperhead wrote:
In reply to:
...then a prusik “re-belay” can be used, PROVIDED it is rigged properly, i.e. long enough.

I retract this statement.


PTPP wrote:
In reply to:
Bottom line is this: don't knock it til you've tried it.

I won’t try it because I don’t like it. I’ll let someone else prove that it is unsafe. Common sense. Is wall climbing supposed to be like high school math where you guess and check everything or is it based on sound theories and facts that have been thought out or proven FIRST, and then put to the test? That seems like an awfully silly way to find out that something doesn’t work. Are you going to keep trying new ideas until they kill you? Re-belaying is DEATH and you are going to get someone killed!!!!!

My ropes seem to last quite a few walls without re-belaying; I generally climb with a partner.

In reply to:
One benefit of the rebelaying is that you can remove some of the stretch from the rope.

That is a benefit? Why don’t you lead on a static line then? Hellooooooo…?

In reply to:
I cannot imagine a whipper so fierce that it would stretch the rope twenty feet!

http://shorelinemtn.com/store/charts/Rope%20Specs.htm
Elongations are based on an 80kg weight.

This chart is from Shoreline Mountain products. They are technical experts (Tom is an engineer) and can answer any of your questions. Shoreline is also a great place to buy gear.

You can visit Shoreline here:

http://www.shorelinemtn.com/store/home.asp

Ok. I’ll ask the question again. “If you start to jug on a fixed 200-foot dynamic lead line (from the ground), how much does the rope stretch before it will completely hold your weight?” And that is just body-weight. Look at the chart. How much do you think a rope can stretch in a large fall?

We didn’t mention the extra extension of the lead line during a fall as a result of your dynamic belay and the upward movement of the haulbags…

In reply to:
Full-on Hoser accent: "Because this is, like, a post about solo climbing systems, eh?"

Duh.

I said FORUM, not post.

Pete, I could care less how dangerous your systems are when YOU go climbing. If you become talus bait, then that’s your problem. The part that bothers me is that you strongly encourage inexperienced climbers on this site that your way is the way to do things, regardless of the true safety factors involved. What works for you may not work for the rest of us. Please provide info that has been used and accepted my multiple solo climbers (who know what they are doing) or experts in the industry, instead of stuff that works for just you and your cronies. At least you can acknowledge the fact that some of your systems have flaws, some of which can potentially be quite dangerous.


Should beginners learn how to aid climb by soloing first or by climbing with a partner first?


RE-BELAYING IS DEATH!!!!!


Ps - If you are so worried about the rope sliding through your Gri-gri, then why don't you use a clove-hitch? It's not like you're free climbing a lot.


alpinelynx


Apr 24, 2003, 10:22 AM
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Re: Death [In reply to]
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very well put.


roscoclimber


Apr 24, 2003, 11:22 AM
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Re: Glad he remembered that bit! [In reply to]
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Dear Doctor. Thanks for the great pictures and text explanation of the Solo - Tag system. I read your original description over a year ago; and waited a long time for the updated drawing. I intend to practice this technique this coming weekend!! Thanks.

However, I must vehemently disagree with the wisdom of using prussiks to re-belay the lead line while climbing. This is simply foolhearty. You MAY correctly judge the necessary length of the prussik to account for upward rope movement during a fall; or you MAY NOT.

If one judges incorrectly and installs a prussik that is too short, the prussik will attempt to tighten around the quickly moving rope (a rope that is also getting thinner as it decelerates the falling climber). This creates the same rope "burn-through" scenario that Royal Robbins luckily survived and other climbers didn't survive.

As you know, but others may not; Robbins connected his harness to the lead rope with prussiks (No gri-gris back then). Upon falling, the prussiks didn't "cleanly" grip the rope as hoped; rather they almost burned throught the rope.

Your system simply MOVES the location of this fatal technique from the harness to somewhere along the belay chain. But the fatal flaw is still there.

One of the main motivations for the prussik re-belay is to protect the lead rope from abrasion (sharp corners) while cleaning the pitch. Is there another way to accomplish this?? Of course.

Once I finish a pitch, I connect two standard 2 foot runners from my harness to the lead rope. As I rap the haul line, these runners keep me in close proximity to the lead rope no matter what the overhang or angle. If the lead rope needs to be "re-belayed" (say just below an overhang), I do it while rapping the pitch instead of while climbing the pitch!!

I use two runners while rappelling so that I can "pass" the protection pieces without lossing contact with the lead rope. When I come to a piece of protection, I move one runner from above the piece to below the piece. While making this transition, the second runner keeps me attached to the lead line even in overhanging terrain. Once the first runner is re-connected to the lead rope below the piece, I then move the second runner below the piece.

The above sequence sounds time consuming because of all the pieces that may need to be passed. Typically this is not the case. Usually the lead rope only needs to be "re-belayed" once or twice per pitch IF AT ALL. Remember, one only needs to re-belay just below an obvious "wear" point such as an overhang or other sharp edged feature. Once you establish the necessary re-belay(s), it is no longer necessary to stay connected to the lead line. At that point I disconnect the runners from the lead line and continue rapping the haul line to the bottom belay anchor.

I think the above strategy provides the optimal solution. Most importantly, it doesn't risk rope damage/failure during a leader fall. Seconcly, it accomplishes the goal of protecting the lead rope from sharp edges while cleaning.

We're all big boys and girls and we'll make our own decisions regarding climbing strategies and techniques. Normally I am loath to pronounce someone's style or technique as "wrong". In this case however, you are close to if not over the line that separates "bad" technique from "wrong" technique.

This technique is so dangerous that while you may like it, you should NOT be promoting it. While 95% of your suggested techniques are smart and inovative; this idea is shall I say; "not so smart". Your Wall-Flower technique is merely silly, but that suggestion won't get someone killed. Prussik Re-belays will get someone killed.

Other Aid Forum readers can draw their own conclusions.






:D


passthepitonspete


Apr 24, 2003, 11:24 AM
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Re: Death [In reply to]
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In reply to:
RE-BELAYING IS DEATH!!!!!

I emphatically disagree, as long as it's done correctly.

I'm familiar with Royal Robbins' Barnett System and have commented on it elsewhere, but I disagree with rosco's exact analogy.

I agree with every word that glock has written below me [I was editing], and my limited experience supports this. The most fundamental advice that glock offers is to think for yourself. Don't take MY word for it!

Rebelaying the lead rope using a clove hitch on a piece of gear has been advocated for a long time. I've seen it in climbing magazines and in aid climbing texts. Maybe you have, too. They advocate using a long sling. Fair enough. But there is still the possibility of reducing the fall factor by this sling not being long enough.

Why has nobody ever complained about rebelaying with clove hitches, and deemed it horrifically unsafe? Perhaps people who have never tried it should write the editors of these publications and tell them it is wrong.

The benefit of using the klemheist setup is that during a fall the knot will pull through the carabiner and the rope will slip through. This is not entirely Big Wall Theory because it has been tested by me, but I'll admit the test sampling may be too small to be fully representative. But I have soloed six Grade VI's while doing this, and I have taken some biggish whippers, and in my experience this system has worked superbly without reducing the fall factor.

But that's in my experience. The jury is still out. You could still die by following my advice. In fact, I can guarantee you that if you follow my advice, you will die, though it may not be a result of following my advice. You could die in bed of old age, too, but DIE YOU WILL!

Then again, perhaps my system is seriously flawed. In fact, I would go so far to say that if you take the advice of some idiot in an internet forum who may or may not know what he's talking about, then you could well be your own worst enemy. You sure as hell shouldn't be up on a big wall alone. Choosing yourself as a partner in this situation could be one of those rare occasions where one fool is worse than two.

THINK for yourself before you do stuff - any stuff - and in fact, before you follow one more word of my advice, you had best click here to understand precisely what you are getting yourself into!

And if you don't click the link above, that is your problem, mate, not mine.

As for rebelaying your lead rope, you will have to admit that given a long enough prusik sling, there is no disadvantage to the system. Perhaps I'll make more of a point of putting the prusiks on longer slings as I go higher up the pitch.

There is merit to roscoclimber's suggestion about installing the rebelays while cleaning. While this would be fairly simple on a straight pitch, its difficulty increases exponentially with overhanging and traversing pitches. But if you can actually do it, it may well be the Better Way.


glockaroo


Apr 24, 2003, 11:47 AM
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Re: Glad he remembered that bit! [In reply to]
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In reply to:
As you know, but others may not; Robbins connected his harness to the lead rope with prussiks (No gri-gris back then). Upon falling, the prussiks didn't "cleanly" grip the rope as hoped; rather they almost burned throught the rope.

Your system simply MOVES the location of this fatal technique from the harness to somewhere along the belay chain. But the fatal flaw is still there.

IIRC the failure was at the prusik slings themselves, not the rope. That old self-belay method had the climber attached to the rope solely via the prusik. If a modern solo rebelay sling gets burned through, the lead rope is essentially unscathed except perhaps for some glazing, and the climber is still connected to the rope via the grigri/Silent Partner/clove hitch.

In reply to:
One of the main motivations for the prussik re-belay is to protect the lead rope from abrasion (sharp corners) while cleaning the pitch.

If the edge is sharp enough to make cleaning scary... isn't it just as dangerous to be LEADING ON IT? I'm talking about sharp edges, not just abrasive ones. This is a case where you look at the unavoidable death-edge and say "well, rebelaying MAY increase my fall factor by 0.333, but a lead fall over that edge WILL SLICE MY ROPE....". What to do? Rebelay the damn rope.

Judgement is involved through all of this, but to make a blanket statement that rebelaying is ALWAYS a bad choice is incorrect.


copperhead


Apr 24, 2003, 12:51 PM
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Re: Death [In reply to]
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PTPP wrote:
In reply to:
But there is still the possibility of reducing the fall factor by this sling not being long enough.


But I have soloed six Grade VI's while doing this, and I have taken some biggish whippers, and in my experience this system has worked superbly without reducing the fall factor.

I think you mean INCREASE fall factor.


Glockaroo wrote:
In reply to:
If the edge is sharp enough to make cleaning scary... isn't it just as dangerous to be LEADING ON IT? I'm talking about sharp edges, not just abrasive ones. This is a case where you look at the unavoidable death-edge and say "well, rebelaying MAY increase my fall factor by 0.333, but a lead fall over that edge WILL SLICE MY ROPE....". What to do? Rebelay the damn rope.

Can you please explain how re-belaying the lead line will prevent the rope from touching sharp edges while you are on lead?


glockaroo


Apr 24, 2003, 1:42 PM
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Re: Death [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Can you please explain how re-belaying the lead line will prevent the rope from touching sharp edges while you are on lead?

This is about the best illustration I could find online on short notice:

http://www.climbing.com/...94_images/rope-4.gif

Not shown in this pic is that while soloing above the sharp edge, tie the rope off to an omnidirectional piece ASAP. Such placements aren't always available of course, especially on tough aid, but you take what you can get. When you do tie off to the upper piece, do so with a screamer (maybe a couple in series) to minimize the unavoidable increase in fall factor.

During the fall the upper piece(s) will hopefully take the load and keep all tension off the rope going over the edge. Then again, they might not. But it beats doing nothing and ENSURING that the lead rope WILL be loaded over said edge during a fall.


tenn_dawg


Apr 24, 2003, 1:46 PM
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Re: Death [In reply to]
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Yeah, but what Bryan was saying was that if you take a fall on lead, the rope will still be pulled tight across the sharp edge.

Good illustration however.

Travis


passthepitonspete


Apr 24, 2003, 2:18 PM
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Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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C.H. was correct above, I meant "increase"

Aha! THAT is one of the photos to which I was referring above. The way you protect it from cutting on a sharp edge if you fall is to put another rebelay above the sharp edge.

So now you have two rebelays - one above the sharpness, and one below the sharpness. Above protects the rope in event of lead fall, below protects the rope while jugging.

BUT

Notice how there is a direct point of attachment to the piece? This rebelay, without being on a long sling, is quite certain to increase the fall factor. [Said it right that time, eh?] In this situation, a long prusik rebelay in place of the one shown would do nothing to protect the rope against the sharp edge in the event of a leader fall.

BUT

So sharp-looking is that edge, you might well consider setting up a whole new mini-belay above it to take an upward pull! Which, of course, resets your fall factor. Better apply a screamer, eh?




What's important to understand is this:

Every situation is unique, and the Better Way for one situation may not be the same for another.

There is no panacea. The only thing that will keep you alive is your own head, and your ability to become a good problem-solver.

If you can't figure this stuff out while you're up there, you might want to consider staying on the ground.


randomcaller


Apr 24, 2003, 3:56 PM
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Long time lurker, first time poster. Thinking about my own rebelay practices, and I’d like to ask some questions.

Bryan, a post of yours not long ago showed a picture of adding a screamer to the belay to introduce some dynamic qualities when solo. Why won’t that work for a rebelay also??? Why can’t you mitigate the loss of dynamics in a rebelay, the same way you do with a belay?

Pete, I never have understood what the advantages of the using the prussik is vs a clove hitch on a long sling. So I always use the clove hitch. What are the advantages again?

Rosco, I like the idea of adding the rebelays on rappel. But that doesn’t help me if I’m self belaying with a gri gri and need to keep the rope from self feeding. Maybe I’ll have to go back to the clove hitch. Unless somebody has an idea to solve the self feeding problem.

The situation in the picture does look like a bad setup for a leader fall, but seems like adding a long sling would solve the problem. Isn’t that how you would normally deal with a sharp edge for most leading situations regardless if your solo, belayed, free climbing or aid climbing?

How about setting rebelays on stoppers that won’t hold an upward pull, that would give you the advantage of a rebelay and keep the dynamics in play. What do you think about that? It seems like a viable option, if available. What do you guys think?

Thanks guys.


passthepitonspete


Apr 24, 2003, 4:15 PM
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Re: Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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I think you're thinking, which is a VGT.

Advantage of prusik vs. clove hitch is that it does not bend the rope and hence reduce the lead rope's strength, and because the klemheist is a one-way knot, and in the event of a whipper which creates enough upward pull to pull upward on the rebelay piece, the rope will [in my experience] slide [without glazing the rope].

The idea about a removable piece that would pop with an upward pull sounds just too good to be true! Judicious and prudent use of a long prusik, further lengthened by a sling when necessary, is the way I prefer to do it.

When you speak of the "self-feeding problem" of a Grigri, do you mean while solo leading, whereby the weight of the rope pulls it through the Grigri putting unwanted and dangerous slack between you and your lower belay? If so, the rebelays solve this problem, because the weight of the rope is held by them. Put one on every twenty or thirty feet, and you'll have no self-feeding problems on lead, mate. [If this is indeed what you meant]


copperhead


Apr 24, 2003, 9:53 PM
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Re: Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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PTPP wrote:
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The way you protect it from cutting on a sharp edge if you fall is to put another rebelay above the sharp edge.

So now you have two rebelays - one above the sharpness, and one below the sharpness. Above protects the rope in event of lead fall, below protects the rope while jugging.

If the above re-belay also uses a Klemheist, then the rope will slide through both Klemheists and abrade on the sharp edge. The lower Klemheist will protect the cleaner but the above Klemheist is extraneous. Any friction caused by the slippage of the lead line through the Klemheists (however many there are on the pitch) will increase impact force at both the top anchor point (piece holding the fall) and the climber, but diminish the force at the belay (as is also the case with rope-drag on the rock and rope-drag through biners). Minimize lead line friction (with runners) throughout the pitch to keep your lead system as dynamic as possible.

In reply to:
So sharp-looking is that edge, you might well consider setting up a whole new mini-belay above it to take an upward pull! Which, of course, resets your fall factor. Better apply a screamer, eh?

This is the only way that you can truly protect an edge while on lead… if you can find any solid placements and if you are soloing. It seems that this would be quite difficult unless you were on a bolt ladder (not a rivet ladder) or you were climbing a splitter A1/C1 crack. How often is this the case, especially on hard aid routes? How long will it take to set up?

Random wrote:
In reply to:
Bryan, a post of yours not long ago showed a picture of adding a screamer to the belay to introduce some dynamic qualities when solo. Why won’t that work for a rebelay also??? Why can’t you mitigate the loss of dynamics in a rebelay, the same way you do with a belay?

Yes, this is possible but I am trying to figure out the differences between the two scenarios (i.e. re-belay w/ Screamer and short length of lead line vs. no re-belay w/ no Screamer and long length of lead line). I don’t have enough resources and info to calculate it yet but I’m working on it…

I will try to answer this question on T-Dawg’s new solo thread.


PTPP wrote:
In reply to:
Advantage of prusik vs. clove hitch is that it does not bend the rope and hence reduce the lead rope's strength,…

NBD because I solo on a clove-hitch and use them at belays. The clove-hitch at the belay end of the lead line is subjected to at least 1/3 less impact force than the clove-hitch at the climber’s harness (due to friction in the system).



Ps – The illustration in Glockaroo’s post above came from a Tech Tip on Climbing Magazine’s website. It was used to show how to avoid sharp edges when ascending a FIXED LINE, and not a lead climbing situation. I linked two other pictures from their site (in one of my earlier posts) but didn’t post the actual images here because they are not mine. What’s the deal with posting other peoples’ images? Is it ethically ‘cool’ to grab stuff from wherever and post it here? Copyrights? At least we can provide a reference, like any worthy scientific publication, right? Cite your references and provide a link!


glockaroo


Apr 24, 2003, 10:27 PM
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Re: Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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Ps – The illustration in Glockaroo’s post above came from a Tech Tip on Climbing Magazine’s website. It was used to show how to avoid sharp edges when ascending a FIXED LINE, and not a lead climbing situation. I linked two other pictures from their site (in one of my earlier posts) but didn’t post the actual images here because they are not mine. What’s the deal with posting other peoples’ images? Is it ethically ‘cool’ to grab stuff from wherever and post it here? Copyrights? At least we can provide a reference, like any worthy scientific publication, right? Cite your references and provide a link!

1) I thoroughly explained that the pic did not show all that I wanted, it was just a good place to start. I thoroughly explained how to ADAPT the image shown for a solo lead situation. Why do you ignore the obvious? It seems all you want to do is argue.

2) the images are being used in what is perhaps the most obvious case of noncommercial "fair reference" that you could ask for. WTF are you now, a professional publisher?

3) right-click on the pic, choose "properties" and you'll see the Climbing mag URL. There's your reference and link. No skullduggery, no pirating conspiracy.

Dude, you spend so much energy picking nits for a reason to bitch that it's getting tiresome. Apparently you have some agenda that goes far beyond a reasonable discussion of aid technique.

Trust me, we have all received your less-than-implicit message that Pete sucks and you don't. Fine, transmission understood. Now can we get back to sharing tech info that might help each other?


coyoteblues


Apr 25, 2003, 12:29 AM
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Re: Rebelaying the rope [In reply to]
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Apparently you have some agenda that goes far beyond a reasonable discussion of aid technique.

Hmmm........, does he or not? I suppose it's possible he also has another agenda, but even if he does, he surely isn't the first! :lol:

In the end, it's not whether you win or lose, but how much fun you have playing the game.


copperhead


Apr 25, 2003, 12:39 AM
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Looking down the barrel of a Glock [In reply to]
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1) Agreed. You did explain the illustration.

2) I was simply asking a question because I don’t know how IP and copyright laws work on the net I could care less what you do; I’m just trying to figure out if I should do it too.

“http://www.climbing.com All contents of this site © 2000-2002 Climbing Magazine
A PRIMEDIA Enthusiast Publication”

3) Thanks for the tips but someone was kind enough to fill me in on this a while ago…Polarwid? Hopefully your tips will be of use to others who are unaware.

4) Yes, I have gotten myself into trouble on more than one occasion, whether it be at a job or at school or this or that. I am a meticulous bastard who will debate something to death, given the motivation or interest. My nit picking caused a few problems at A5 but at least it led to the instigation of the first quality control program. Maybe I spent too much time with my buddies who I grew up with that are now lawyers or maybe it’s too much science. Maybe I just like to argue; it is fun. How about we talk about society and population? Am I an a-ho for pointing out flaws in Pete’s systems? Jeeze, the guy sticks his neck out so far, he’s bound to catch some flak. Sharing ideas on a public forum opens the door to praise as well as ridicule. You ought to see me when I get on the road…

5) It’s not a matter of who is more rad; it’s a matter of climbing systems, physics, safety, and efficiency. Style may be personal. Pete is an accomplished climber. I just happen to disagree with some of his systems and attitudes.


In reply to:
Now can we get back to sharing tech info that might help each other?

Sure. That’s why we’re all here. LEARNING. I’ll try to concentrate on info rather than slander. So much for the Deli…

Cheers,

Bryan


copperhead


Apr 25, 2003, 12:40 AM
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In the end, it's not whether you win or lose, but how much fun you have playing the game.

Ozzy would disagree but that is beside the point. I'm having a lot of fun and am learning. Hope all of you are too.


tenn_dawg


Apr 25, 2003, 8:52 AM
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So much for the Deli…

Hahaha :lol:

Oh, and no rush on the other thread. There's a bunch of questions. There are some interesting ideas bouncing around over there already, anyway.

Travis


passthepitonspete


Apr 25, 2003, 9:21 AM
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Aaaaaahhhh, the deli....... [In reply to]
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Aaaaaaaaahhhhh, the deli.......

Of walking in to buy beer, of being carded, and of telling them that I am twenty-two years older than the drinking age.....

Twenty days and I'm there.........


timstich


Apr 27, 2003, 6:44 AM
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Re: Death [In reply to]
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*deletred*


copperhead


Apr 27, 2003, 9:45 AM
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Wally is rad [In reply to]
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Wally Barker told me that he used this tagging system on his solos of The Ranch, Gulf Stream, Reticent, Plastic Surgery Disaster, and one more he told me and I've forgotten.

I don't mean to throw more logs on the fire but Wally does not tag. Ask him. He does, however, tie his haul line onto the end of his lead line, hence the "continuous loop." If I remember correctly, Kaos would be the fifth.

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