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kmae
Oct 30, 2002, 2:51 PM
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My second doesn't understand why I am so averse to falling on my own gear. I never saw a gym or a sport route until my second year of climbing, and I continue to climb almost all trad. So I guess it's drilled into my head that the leader should not fall. Her point is that I am climbing well within my grade, and my gear is good, so what's the big deal about taking a fall?
Any ideas on how to explain to her why people who lead trad generally try to avoid falling?
[ This Message was edited by: kmae on 2002-10-30 07:06 ]
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boogirl
Oct 30, 2002, 2:58 PM
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Simple - avoid unnecessary risk and preserve gear. Also, if she gets wet, she won't have to wonder where the shower from above originated
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phaedrus
Oct 30, 2002, 3:01 PM
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Another easy explanation:
Fall=Ouch.
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petzl510
Oct 30, 2002, 3:02 PM
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It is simple. If you do fall there is a chance that your gear could fail. and the OUCH
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hugepedro
Oct 30, 2002, 3:03 PM
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I'm like you, I trad more than anything else, and the places where I climb most often are not friendly to falling leaders.
The key to your convincing her is the statement "the gear is good". No, the gear is not always good. Gear fails sometimes, and when it does, falls can get real big real fast. Injuries hurt, and being dead sucks even more (just my guess). If she still doesn't believe you, make her lead!
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stevo
Oct 30, 2002, 3:40 PM
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Give her the sharp end and the rack.
Then when she is in the middle of a long run out, give the rope a little tug.
No better explanation than trying the stuff yourself.
Falling on gear is not the end of the world, the stuff is usually solid if you know how to place it, and from past experience I often am overly surprised at some of the stuff that holds. To counter that though, sometimes I am surprised at the stuff that pulls.
Most rock that I have climbed on is user friendly for gear falls, the only rock not is alpine limestone that is major fractured, ie, Canadian rockies.
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atg200
Oct 30, 2002, 3:45 PM
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not all trad leaders are adverse to falling. it is a good idea to avoid falling on easier routes because they tend to be lower angle, ledgier, and in general not as safe to fall on. once you start leading 5.9 or harder, not only does falling start to become inevitable to get better, it gets safer because of much cleaner fall lines.
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tradguy
Oct 30, 2002, 3:47 PM
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I don't like falling. I don't mind quite so much for well protected sport routes, but I don't do too much sport climbing anyway. I like to think that I'm pretty good about placing gear that will hold big falls, but it still kind of freaks me out a bit occasionally - you know, the thought of hitting a ledge or something on the way down and breaking ankles, or smashing into the wall and breaking an arm, etc, etc.
In 6 years of trad leading, I've only taken 3 lead falls on gear, and all have been on climbs in the 5.10 range. I know I don't push myself hard enough, because if I did I would be taking more falls than that, but I just hate being hurt (12 broken bones and counting - all separate incidents, though none from climbing).
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-10-30 07:52 ]
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cyberclimber
Oct 30, 2002, 3:50 PM
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Whereas most sport routes are steep, clear of obstacles or even overhanging, so that a fall usually causes no more damage than a buised ego and a flapper or two, many trad routes have a serious potential for injury,,,even if the pro is good and it does hold. Climbing trad you often can't protect above every dangerous landing point, ie ledges, jutting rocks, etc., so even if you have utmost confidence in the pro you have placed, you may still have very good reasons to greatly fear a fall. If this reasoning doesn't satisfy her, you might want to look for a more compatible partner. Climbing doesn't necessarily always have to be about pushing your level or jumping grades, it can be just as satisfying to climb just for the fun of it well within your limits.
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bradhill
Oct 30, 2002, 3:53 PM
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Why even experienced (especially experienced!) trad leaders don't like to fall.
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topher
Oct 30, 2002, 3:58 PM
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this is a bunch of poo! falling on trad is fine. if your good at placing gear, and are one clean routes taking a fall is not a big deal. Hell most trad climbers say trad gear is safer to fall on than bolts. IF you want to see harsh gear falls watch hard grit! they are falling like 40 feet onto gear.
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tradklime
Oct 30, 2002, 4:32 PM
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It completely depends on the gear and route. In some situations it's a dumb question like "why do people not like to fall when free soloing" and other times gear is every bit as good as a solid bolt and the fall can be completely clean.
This past summer on a route I took several whippers on a #3 lowe ball only 3/4 the way in the crack. Because of the situation, it was actually a completely solid placement and it was backed up(by a number 1 RP). I didn't mind at all.
It's really all mental. When you know how to place good gear and evaluate placements, you know when gear is good. However, a lot of climbers don't get the comfort feeling from trad gear as they do bolts. I've often been there myself. It takes along time to develope the mind frame to push it on trad and sometimes it goes away.
Climb often and climb hard.
[ This Message was edited by: tradklime on 2002-10-30 08:34 ]
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tradklime
Oct 30, 2002, 4:40 PM
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Kmae- I certainly don't mean to come across as saying you should push your limits. We all have different motivations and one is not better than the other. Climb for yourself.
However, not all trad climbers hate to fall.
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rrrADAM
Oct 30, 2002, 4:51 PM
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I may not "like" to fall, but I am not averse to it. I am completely comfortable pushing my limits, and getting some air time on Trad.
I didn't feel this way when I hadn't taken any substantial falls on my gear, therefore didn't trust it totaly. I have taken two 40+ footers, 1 on yellow Alien and one on #9 BD Stopper, and have logged much "air time" since then on Trad.
Now, personally, I trust gear I placed more than I trust a bolt I did not place. But that's just me.
I also have had much more jarring falls on Sport, as the fall factors are higher due to less "give" in the system among other things, and preffer falling on Trad for that reason.
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climbjs
Oct 30, 2002, 4:57 PM
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For me, I began climbing limestone sport routes, where whippers were often and not too big. So, I wasn't as afraid to fall as much. When I began trad climbing, the idea of falling on gear that I placed was less pleasing than a bolt.
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reno
Oct 30, 2002, 5:10 PM
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Bradhill:
Thanks for the link... the one thing that stood out at me in this article was this:
"The fall shattered Mr. Kropp's bicycling helmet, which was no longer on his head."
I'm not going to second guess anyone, but it was taught to me that a bicycle helmet was not appropriate for climbing.
Still and all, a sad story.
Best,
JRB
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tradguy
Oct 30, 2002, 5:28 PM
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To be clear, my reluctance to fall on trad lead has nothing to do with my gear placements. I feel very comfortable that nearly all my gear placements would take a 30+ ft whipper without problems. The issue of colliding with a ledge or swinging back into the rock face is what concerns me about trad falls.
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petsfed
Oct 30, 2002, 5:34 PM
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And I was taught that a climbing helmet is designed to protect from falling rock, not falling climber. Judging from the description of the fall, Goran would've died with or without the helmet.
As to the topic, I only fear falls on slabby stuff. And low on a route. I'm no fan of hitting things when I fall. Which basically means I try to avoid falling on most everything I climb.
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climbchick
Oct 30, 2002, 5:36 PM
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It was a Petzl Meteor helmet. You can read the facts & the belayer's report here
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rrrADAM
Oct 30, 2002, 6:15 PM
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Great find Yvette.
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reno
Oct 30, 2002, 6:40 PM
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Gawd:
You wrote: " reno and bradhill....and everyone you people are idiots....
goran kropp did not have a bicycle helmet one it was a petzl meteor....."
I'm not sure that I know you or that you know me, so I don't know how you think you are qualified to call me an idiot. Only people that know me are allowed to say that.
And if you read my post (you can read, right?) you'll see that I was simply quoting the article. I did not... REPEATING... I DID NOT... state that anyone wore anything. I am simply replying to a line in a newspaper article.
Get your facts straight, bub.
Best,
JRB
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cedk
Oct 30, 2002, 6:44 PM
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I notice that Reno and Bradhill both have balls enough to post their home town in their profile.
Why is it that the ruder people on this site never do that?
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bwnco
Oct 30, 2002, 6:49 PM
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Kmae,
Hey I dont blame you either, I hate falling on trad gear. Its no comparison to sport climbing. Whole different catagory. Easiest way to explain to her is let her lead and think about taking a whipper On some little bitty rp. I think she'll gt the picture. p.s Alex Lowe was once quoted as saying "The best climber is the one that is haveing the most fun" dont let others screw your mind over.....amf Bob
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ride
Oct 30, 2002, 6:50 PM
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Gawd: the problem is, with climbing even a small insignificant (to others) mistake can cost your (and your belayers) lives.
and WTF is that last post all about?
I think trad leaders maybe are a little more aware of whats going on around/under them.
The fact that most sport routes are slightly overhung at best, makes the falls from them way easier on the psyche (for me at least)
I know I'm a lil' bit more opposed to falling on my trad gear, its not that I don't trust my placements, its just me I guess, I've taken falls on my gear. Plus I think that since trad falls are usually of a much greater distance (and on much more "featured" rock) than sport falls, I belive my trepidation to be justified.
I was taught to lead climb as if you did not have a rope, since its only there to keep you from cratering (hopefully)
but in general can any climber really say that they enjoy falling, are we climbers or jumpers?
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jumaringjeff
Oct 30, 2002, 7:17 PM
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Gawd, chill out man, go take your aggressions out on a hard climb rather than spreading bad vibes on this site...
Anyways...
I fear taking trad falls simply because I haven't taken any whippers on my gear yet so I don't have that 'total' confidence in my placements. I know HOW to place pieces and how to inspect them to see wether or not the placement is good, but I guess it's just one of those things that'll bother me until I prove it with a good fallllllllllll....
-jj
[ This Message was edited by: jumaringjeff on 2002-10-30 11:17 ]
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climblouisiana
Oct 30, 2002, 7:35 PM
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On long routes falling and figuring out moves takes time so when i do long routes that require gear placement, I usually climb slightly below my limit to ensure that I can complete the route without having an epic. If it's a route that is a single pitch with a clean fall then I will generally go for it and not be as a afraid to fall. Just as in sport climbing, the harder the gear route is the better the fall. Easier climbs tend to be slabbier and more featured whether bolted or requiring gear placements.
Gawd, lighten up.
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astone
Oct 30, 2002, 7:36 PM
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Given the recent flamings on this post it seems trad leaders fall into two categories; those who apply their skills to preserve life, and those who are dying to get radical.
The best climbers I have met are those who are as afraid of falling as the rest of us, but use their intellect and skill to climb amazing things despite those fears. The young and the reckless seldom seem to achieve that level of competence.
My admiration and attention goes to all trad climber who have made it past 40, and to those who have died trying in admirable style.
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therealdeal
Oct 30, 2002, 8:00 PM
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Tell her to ask Goran Kroup about whipping on trad gear. Opps! Too late. Climbing is dangerous, bottom line.
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melonhead
Oct 30, 2002, 8:02 PM
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NO, YOU don't want to fall. Not me, I'll take the wipper!!!
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rrrADAM
Oct 30, 2002, 8:05 PM
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I just read this elsewhere...
"Don't feed the TROLLS !!!"
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klimberbob
Oct 30, 2002, 8:45 PM
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if the fall would be clean, and the gear is good - ie a bommer nut or hex, then there is no issue about falling. air time on trad character building
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rollingstone
Oct 30, 2002, 8:45 PM
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Right on, rrradam!
As an older (49) trad climber, much of my experience and indoctrination in the sport came from using rock climbing as a means to go on to longer alpine routes in great ranges. The consequence of a fall onto gear one has placed themselves is consequently greater than one faces in a prepared, cleaned, manufactured sport area. Alpine routes are generally not as steep, and the consequences for even a minor injury become magnified when one is faced with several thousand feet of descent and then 10 or 20 miles of walking out (or longer, in some places...). Not all vertical endeavors share equal risk.
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stevematthys
Oct 30, 2002, 8:51 PM
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falling is failing. that is what i think.
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sparky
Oct 31, 2002, 12:24 AM
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that gear is pricy and the rock may be chossy, but not to EVER fall is taking it a little to far, you shouldn't just fall for shits and giggles but don't be entirley against it, i'll whip inthe gym because its not my gear
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joemor
Oct 31, 2002, 12:54 AM
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you shouldnt be against falling.... mabe avoid doing stupid things.... but dont start a climb thinking you wont fall, instead think of how to protect the route so its safe to fall. hell my placements are much more bomber than most of the rusty 30 yearold carrot bolts in australia. if you dont fall your not pushing your self. it may not be important to you but i want to climb as hard as im able and in order to do that i take the risk of falling. its all part of the game. hell whippers are fun..
sure try not to fall onto ledges butdont rule falling out all together.
joe
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slcliffdiver
Oct 31, 2002, 12:58 AM
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Just because it has bolts doesn't make it "sport" and just because it takes gear doesn't make it "trad" (yes I know the second is the literal definition). For me it's it's more of a psychological thing. Gear easy to place, super solid, close together, great fall line and sewn up everywhere there's a reasonable chance of a fall; basically any route I'd be willing to fall up and placed the gear as such I never really considered a "trad" lead. Take away any of those factors and then I'd be in more of a trad mindset.
I've "sieged" some routes placing gear (multiple falls to get up the first time) but never really considered them a leading "trad" (never did this on routes not super well protected). They just didn't have the feel. If placing the pro was part of the crux even if when placed it was super solid and would meet my "sport" criteria otherwise that becomes a little more "trad" in my mind also.
I liked what one person said about leading trad only push one limit at a time. Difficulty, gear, route finding, etc.
Falling on literal trad routes goes from anything in safety range (assuming you know what you're doing) from a well protected sport route to you might as well be soloing. For me the psychology doesn't always keep pace if I have a long enough layoff from leading trad falling on even the best redundant gear becomes much less appealing.
Peace
David
Edit: Forgot spell check:)
[ This Message was edited by: slcliffdiver on 2002-10-30 17:58 ]
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jt512
Oct 31, 2002, 1:04 AM
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Question for those of you who don't want to fall in order to spare your gear: What gear are you referring to, and how many falls do you think it will withstand?
-Jay
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fireclimber
Oct 31, 2002, 1:45 AM
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I would tell her a race car driver does not like to crash , duh
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clmbnski
Oct 31, 2002, 3:12 AM
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Everyone is acting like there is two choices, either never fall or push your limits until you fall. However it is totally subjective on the route, the rock, the pro and many other things. If the gear is good and the fall clean there then you should push your limits and expect to fall. If the route is potentially dangerous then you should be more heads up and consider backing off if you dont feel right.
It depends on the situation
Chris
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jhwnewengland
Oct 31, 2002, 3:32 AM
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You're right JT, people worrying about sparing their gear probably haven't used their gear that much. Once you do, you'll realize that it is damn strong, and not going to break on you anytime soon.
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apollodorus
Oct 31, 2002, 3:51 AM
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Two words: chopper-flake and ledge
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passthepitonspete
Oct 31, 2002, 3:54 AM
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I don't like falling for two reasons:
1. I'm a chickenshit.
2. It means I've failed.
I've taken whippers onto duct taped hooks and #2 heads, right on up to big frickin' bolts.
If it holds, it's all good. But it doesn't make it any less scary!
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kmae
Oct 31, 2002, 5:08 AM
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stevo, tradklime, bwnco, astone:
Thanks for the great ideas/thoughts. I appreciate it all. Rock on.
kmae
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blessard
Oct 31, 2002, 5:25 AM
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Geez, you people are scary!! I wish more climbers would get real instruction from accredited guides/instructors. If I had to guess, and I will, I'd guess a lot of you folks are self-taught or learned from people who were self-taught!?!? And, yes, I know 20 years ago, there weren't many options, but, today there are! If you don't trust your gear, why are you placing it?
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drdeath
Oct 31, 2002, 5:40 AM
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Agreed! I take whippers on my gear all the time. The only ones that concern me are the extra small nuts and small cams. But in the case of well placed small gear I am usually more concerned about damaging the gear rather that the gear blowing.
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mreardon
Oct 31, 2002, 7:59 PM
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I also learned to never come off. My partners would actually not allow any hangdogging whatsoever and I would have to go all the way back to the belay or ground and go back up from the ground. It was the only way to truly send. Because of this mentality, I also held myself back a bit from the "high numbers".
To get over this, I "french free" or aid a line every couple weeks just to get used to the gear holding. Then I'll take a small whip on the warm-up climb to force the head on. After that, I'll push myself until I fly. It's the only way to get better, and to learn how to trust your gear placements. If you can't trust the gear, then why even place it.
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blessard
Nov 1, 2002, 5:41 AM
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Great post, mreardon! I was just going to bring up Aid climbing.
Thanks!
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holygecko
Nov 1, 2002, 2:27 PM
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because if your a hardcore trad junkie when you fall your supposed to start that pitch all over, kinda like a punishment for bein a pu---
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kmae
Nov 1, 2002, 5:10 PM
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Hi Blessard, thanks for the question - I've had a good bit of pro instruction, starting with the Appalachian Mountain Club (the venerable "AMC") Boston Chapter rock climbing class, plus other classes and pro instruction.
I was just looking for a kind of a sanity check from others on their feelings about falling on gear.
On the topic of "If you don't trust your gear, why are you placing it?" -- I do place good gear (when I can get it:-)). Unfortunately I know that you can get very hurt falling on solid gear. I took a small (15-20') fall on a pink tri-cam. It was solid and held. But since I slammed into the rock with my lower back/tailbone I couldn't walk for two weeks and was in pain for about three months.
So my basic point is that you can get hurt falling on good gear. Thanks for your feedback. I think I'm definitely going to hand this second the rack and let her see what it's like. Then maybe she won't be so macho about it.
[ This Message was edited by: kmae on 2002-11-03 15:36 ]
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blessard
Nov 1, 2002, 7:54 PM
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Right, I understand. Sorry, I wasn't really directing my comments specifically at you. I probably overstated it a bit!
Climb on!
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brutusofwyde
Nov 3, 2002, 9:46 PM
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Fall on trad?
No, thanks.
Good gear? I don't always have the option of placing good gear. Of course, it depends. As others noted, in the backcountry, if I get seriously injured, I'll likely be dead before word ever reaches civilization.
So the gear is bomber. How long is long enough? 30 feet? we're talking about only a 12 foot runout here. 60 feet? 25 foot runout plus slack stretch and slop in the system.
It depends. But in the situations I usually find myself, falling is not an option. Downclimb or grab that good gear. Since I only crank 5.6, yes, I'm talking about lower angled stuff. But I've climbed on 4th class where if I fell, the rope would only be good for locating the bodies.
Brutus (first post here)
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beyond_gravity
Nov 3, 2002, 9:55 PM
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Quote:
If you can't trust the gear, then why even place it.
I hate it when people say this. I dont trust gear because i'm new to trad, and neither did you.
why the hail do you think I place gear?
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brutusofwyde
Nov 3, 2002, 11:21 PM
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Don't know about the rest of you, but when I place one of Tom Kasper's Valley Giants, it
lightens the rack considerably.
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edgelounger
Nov 4, 2002, 4:07 PM
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i don't want die, i'm not ready yet
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climber_andy
Nov 4, 2002, 5:12 PM
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I took my first lead fall pretty early in my lead career, at least compared to most of the guys I lead with. I think it was my 2nd or 3rd lead and my friend picked out a "nice" crack climb, supposed to be rated within my limits. I struggeled my way about 3/4 up it when I bombed off onto a #10 nut, just too pumped to keep on. It wasn't exactly a long fall, but it was still scary until I realized my gear held. Fell twice on that piece actually, then gave up and let my friend finish it. He gets up to the top, and tells me we should check the guide book. Yeah, he had me on the wrong climb, and it was rated about 2 ranks harder than anything I'd led.
At least I felt better about falling off something harder than I could handle than something I thought was within my limits. And I do a pretty good job of checking the guide book myself now.
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estwing
Nov 4, 2002, 5:58 PM
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I don't fall on gear, because I find that it is difficult enough to clean already.
That is the only reason, I swear(ha,ha, ha)!
Have a nice day,
Sam
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tanner
Nov 4, 2002, 6:44 PM
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I only place gear to make easy climbs feel harder and so I can buy cool looking toys that come in a bunch of nice colors:lol: Fall on gear? I just don't fall On trad. I climb a few grades lower on trad so falling shouldn't be a problem. But the gear is there if I need it. Its just like I wont fall soloing or running somthing out. I don't like falling!!!
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ckostas
Nov 4, 2002, 6:58 PM
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In response to your post, I would like to add that I think falling, regardless of whether it's trad (gear) or sport (bolts), is dependent upon a multitude of factors and not limited to one certain situation.
As a lead climber, before I start a route, I take into consideration a number of things. The weather, have I been on this climb before, did I drink to much last night, how many pitch's, the beginning or the end of the day, and whats the difficulty all play into the how aggressive I am going to be on a certain climb. After I have done a quick consideration of those pieces of the puzzle, I adjust how aggressive I'm going to be. Hence, the fall factor goes up or down.
But when it's all said and done, I am way more confident in placing my own pro vs. a bolt placed by someone else. Yes gear can fail whether it falls out or pops out, but the same can be said for a bolt put in by who knows. So I guess the question you have to ask yourself before you jam up a route, is whether you trust "bob the bolt placer" or that #1 friend you just stuck in a crack?
smitty
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wanlessrm
Nov 14, 2002, 11:26 PM
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Have her carry you too and from the wall on her back so she can understand her duties in case of a nasty fall!
She won't want you to fall after that!
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holdplease2
Dec 18, 2002, 3:02 AM
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I lead trad and sport 5.9, low 10 on both. Hate to fall on both. Fallen many times. Injuries include rash, sprained ankles, flappers, could have happened on trad or sport and have happened on both. (Not a great climber, but do try hard)
I learned to lead trand on sandstone in KY and Red Rocks, and later in Gunks. The same placment offers different security depending on the rock. And you never know the rock 100%, though experience brings sounder judgement.
1) Trad gear is pricy, why get it stuck or broken if you don't have to.
2) Show her how a placement can be good, but also show her how many variables it takes to make a good placement. One error (not sighting a crack, thinking the rock is more solid than it is, whatever) could make a big difference.
I've never pulled gear, but I bet I have climbed above gear that could have pulled, sometimes knowing, sometimes not.
And unlike sport climbing, you didn't see your gear hold 10 guys as a test before it had to hold you. Right-o?
It could be that your girlfriend, like some of the rest of us (me) was afraid to fall above bolts before she got used to it.
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radistrad
Dec 18, 2002, 3:17 AM
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the leader must not fall is an "old school" term. Back in the day, when they used piton and hemp ropes they tied around their waist, they did not want to fall as it would be horrible.
On my last trip to the Valley one of our leader took 3 whippers on the same piece.
Properly placed gear is not likely to fail.
It all comes with experience and pratice.
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madclimberboy
Dec 20, 2002, 10:01 PM
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Because you really never know what could happen. You could smack your head (if you didn't have a helmet on), or injure yourself in some way for one. Second, a piece could break, pop out, or fail in some way, or the seemingly faultless rock could break when you fall on it. Also your rope, you know, only can handle a certain number of falls it can take before you probably should retire it, and you most likely want to keep your rope as long as possible. There are many risks involved in falling (especially long distances) while trad leading. Therefore you really should be careful about not falling while climbing, unless of course it's your greatest pleasure in life!
Matt
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tkambitsch
Dec 22, 2002, 10:21 PM
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I've not fallen on gear yet, but I did deck once before I had a chance to place my first piece. I fell only about 8 feet but it really hurt.
I'm reminded of it often as my meager 5.4-5.7 routes are filled with ledges and other hazards about every 8 feet!
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diplodocus
Dec 23, 2002, 2:52 PM
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Once I place a yellow alien in a slightly flaring crack. Gave it a yank before clipping in the rope and it popped out! (because there was some slippery moss in the crack that I could not see from my angle) Put some fear into me about the possibility of it doing the same thing if I ever take a fall on any pro.
Plus, falling on trad often means some injury that hurts (sometime very painful), unlike gym, where you very seldom get hurt.
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graniteboy
Dec 23, 2002, 8:38 PM
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Whether falling on Trad lead is "scary" or not is completely situationally dependent. If the pro is great and the fall line is clean, then, yippeee. fall if you want. BUT, if the fall entails whacking a ledge, or pulling pro and then whacking a ledge face first and having a baby pigeon stuffed up your nose from the impact, then FORGET IT.
I disagree strongly with ATG 2000's statement that hard routes have clean falls; Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. sometimes 5.12 trad has death fall potential, and sometimes 5.6 has a nice clean flight zone. I've quit climbing with more than one sport climber because they thought it was OK to fall on poorly protected trad or ice or mixed routes. The point is; you need judgement for assessing a trad fall, which many people don't have yet. Work into it slowly and steadily and pay your dues.
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tim
Dec 23, 2002, 9:08 PM
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I'm so happy that graniteboy is still around... the above is a rather concise presentation of why it's not usually a bright idea to take wingers on trad routes, whether hard or easy.
I almost took a 40 footer yesterday. Clean, but still not what I wanted to do with my day. Look at some of the 'VS' routes in Eldorado Canyon -- just because it's 5.12 doesn't mean you can't break every bone in your body if you pop off. 'DFU' for sure.
Besides, it's more fun to finish the route.
(edit: to clarify, I'm not saying that trad gear will never hold a fall; I've taken numerous lead falls on gear. But whether it's safe is totally route-dependent. You can %@#$ yourself up bad even on hard routes at the Gunks, for example, if you fall wrong)
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2002-12-23 13:09 ]
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easysteve
Jan 6, 2003, 6:11 AM
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Who wants to fall? Nothing's certain...
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