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kmae
Oct 30, 2002, 2:51 PM
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My second doesn't understand why I am so averse to falling on my own gear. I never saw a gym or a sport route until my second year of climbing, and I continue to climb almost all trad. So I guess it's drilled into my head that the leader should not fall. Her point is that I am climbing well within my grade, and my gear is good, so what's the big deal about taking a fall?
Any ideas on how to explain to her why people who lead trad generally try to avoid falling?
[ This Message was edited by: kmae on 2002-10-30 07:06 ]
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boogirl
Oct 30, 2002, 2:58 PM
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Simple - avoid unnecessary risk and preserve gear. Also, if she gets wet, she won't have to wonder where the shower from above originated
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phaedrus
Oct 30, 2002, 3:01 PM
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Another easy explanation:
Fall=Ouch.
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petzl510
Oct 30, 2002, 3:02 PM
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It is simple. If you do fall there is a chance that your gear could fail. and the OUCH
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hugepedro
Oct 30, 2002, 3:03 PM
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I'm like you, I trad more than anything else, and the places where I climb most often are not friendly to falling leaders.
The key to your convincing her is the statement "the gear is good". No, the gear is not always good. Gear fails sometimes, and when it does, falls can get real big real fast. Injuries hurt, and being dead sucks even more (just my guess). If she still doesn't believe you, make her lead!
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stevo
Oct 30, 2002, 3:40 PM
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Give her the sharp end and the rack.
Then when she is in the middle of a long run out, give the rope a little tug.
No better explanation than trying the stuff yourself.
Falling on gear is not the end of the world, the stuff is usually solid if you know how to place it, and from past experience I often am overly surprised at some of the stuff that holds. To counter that though, sometimes I am surprised at the stuff that pulls.
Most rock that I have climbed on is user friendly for gear falls, the only rock not is alpine limestone that is major fractured, ie, Canadian rockies.
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atg200
Oct 30, 2002, 3:45 PM
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not all trad leaders are adverse to falling. it is a good idea to avoid falling on easier routes because they tend to be lower angle, ledgier, and in general not as safe to fall on. once you start leading 5.9 or harder, not only does falling start to become inevitable to get better, it gets safer because of much cleaner fall lines.
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tradguy
Oct 30, 2002, 3:47 PM
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I don't like falling. I don't mind quite so much for well protected sport routes, but I don't do too much sport climbing anyway. I like to think that I'm pretty good about placing gear that will hold big falls, but it still kind of freaks me out a bit occasionally - you know, the thought of hitting a ledge or something on the way down and breaking ankles, or smashing into the wall and breaking an arm, etc, etc.
In 6 years of trad leading, I've only taken 3 lead falls on gear, and all have been on climbs in the 5.10 range. I know I don't push myself hard enough, because if I did I would be taking more falls than that, but I just hate being hurt (12 broken bones and counting - all separate incidents, though none from climbing).
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-10-30 07:52 ]
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cyberclimber
Oct 30, 2002, 3:50 PM
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Whereas most sport routes are steep, clear of obstacles or even overhanging, so that a fall usually causes no more damage than a buised ego and a flapper or two, many trad routes have a serious potential for injury,,,even if the pro is good and it does hold. Climbing trad you often can't protect above every dangerous landing point, ie ledges, jutting rocks, etc., so even if you have utmost confidence in the pro you have placed, you may still have very good reasons to greatly fear a fall. If this reasoning doesn't satisfy her, you might want to look for a more compatible partner. Climbing doesn't necessarily always have to be about pushing your level or jumping grades, it can be just as satisfying to climb just for the fun of it well within your limits.
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bradhill
Oct 30, 2002, 3:53 PM
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Why even experienced (especially experienced!) trad leaders don't like to fall.
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topher
Oct 30, 2002, 3:58 PM
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this is a bunch of poo! falling on trad is fine. if your good at placing gear, and are one clean routes taking a fall is not a big deal. Hell most trad climbers say trad gear is safer to fall on than bolts. IF you want to see harsh gear falls watch hard grit! they are falling like 40 feet onto gear.
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tradklime
Oct 30, 2002, 4:32 PM
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It completely depends on the gear and route. In some situations it's a dumb question like "why do people not like to fall when free soloing" and other times gear is every bit as good as a solid bolt and the fall can be completely clean.
This past summer on a route I took several whippers on a #3 lowe ball only 3/4 the way in the crack. Because of the situation, it was actually a completely solid placement and it was backed up(by a number 1 RP). I didn't mind at all.
It's really all mental. When you know how to place good gear and evaluate placements, you know when gear is good. However, a lot of climbers don't get the comfort feeling from trad gear as they do bolts. I've often been there myself. It takes along time to develope the mind frame to push it on trad and sometimes it goes away.
Climb often and climb hard.
[ This Message was edited by: tradklime on 2002-10-30 08:34 ]
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tradklime
Oct 30, 2002, 4:40 PM
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Kmae- I certainly don't mean to come across as saying you should push your limits. We all have different motivations and one is not better than the other. Climb for yourself.
However, not all trad climbers hate to fall.
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rrrADAM
Oct 30, 2002, 4:51 PM
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I may not "like" to fall, but I am not averse to it. I am completely comfortable pushing my limits, and getting some air time on Trad.
I didn't feel this way when I hadn't taken any substantial falls on my gear, therefore didn't trust it totaly. I have taken two 40+ footers, 1 on yellow Alien and one on #9 BD Stopper, and have logged much "air time" since then on Trad.
Now, personally, I trust gear I placed more than I trust a bolt I did not place. But that's just me.
I also have had much more jarring falls on Sport, as the fall factors are higher due to less "give" in the system among other things, and preffer falling on Trad for that reason.
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climbjs
Oct 30, 2002, 4:57 PM
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For me, I began climbing limestone sport routes, where whippers were often and not too big. So, I wasn't as afraid to fall as much. When I began trad climbing, the idea of falling on gear that I placed was less pleasing than a bolt.
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reno
Oct 30, 2002, 5:10 PM
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Bradhill:
Thanks for the link... the one thing that stood out at me in this article was this:
"The fall shattered Mr. Kropp's bicycling helmet, which was no longer on his head."
I'm not going to second guess anyone, but it was taught to me that a bicycle helmet was not appropriate for climbing.
Still and all, a sad story.
Best,
JRB
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tradguy
Oct 30, 2002, 5:28 PM
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To be clear, my reluctance to fall on trad lead has nothing to do with my gear placements. I feel very comfortable that nearly all my gear placements would take a 30+ ft whipper without problems. The issue of colliding with a ledge or swinging back into the rock face is what concerns me about trad falls.
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petsfed
Oct 30, 2002, 5:34 PM
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And I was taught that a climbing helmet is designed to protect from falling rock, not falling climber. Judging from the description of the fall, Goran would've died with or without the helmet.
As to the topic, I only fear falls on slabby stuff. And low on a route. I'm no fan of hitting things when I fall. Which basically means I try to avoid falling on most everything I climb.
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climbchick
Oct 30, 2002, 5:36 PM
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It was a Petzl Meteor helmet. You can read the facts & the belayer's report here
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rrrADAM
Oct 30, 2002, 6:15 PM
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Great find Yvette.
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reno
Oct 30, 2002, 6:40 PM
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Gawd:
You wrote: " reno and bradhill....and everyone you people are idiots....
goran kropp did not have a bicycle helmet one it was a petzl meteor....."
I'm not sure that I know you or that you know me, so I don't know how you think you are qualified to call me an idiot. Only people that know me are allowed to say that.
And if you read my post (you can read, right?) you'll see that I was simply quoting the article. I did not... REPEATING... I DID NOT... state that anyone wore anything. I am simply replying to a line in a newspaper article.
Get your facts straight, bub.
Best,
JRB
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cedk
Oct 30, 2002, 6:44 PM
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I notice that Reno and Bradhill both have balls enough to post their home town in their profile.
Why is it that the ruder people on this site never do that?
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bwnco
Oct 30, 2002, 6:49 PM
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Kmae,
Hey I dont blame you either, I hate falling on trad gear. Its no comparison to sport climbing. Whole different catagory. Easiest way to explain to her is let her lead and think about taking a whipper On some little bitty rp. I think she'll gt the picture. p.s Alex Lowe was once quoted as saying "The best climber is the one that is haveing the most fun" dont let others screw your mind over.....amf Bob
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ride
Oct 30, 2002, 6:50 PM
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Gawd: the problem is, with climbing even a small insignificant (to others) mistake can cost your (and your belayers) lives.
and WTF is that last post all about?
I think trad leaders maybe are a little more aware of whats going on around/under them.
The fact that most sport routes are slightly overhung at best, makes the falls from them way easier on the psyche (for me at least)
I know I'm a lil' bit more opposed to falling on my trad gear, its not that I don't trust my placements, its just me I guess, I've taken falls on my gear. Plus I think that since trad falls are usually of a much greater distance (and on much more "featured" rock) than sport falls, I belive my trepidation to be justified.
I was taught to lead climb as if you did not have a rope, since its only there to keep you from cratering (hopefully)
but in general can any climber really say that they enjoy falling, are we climbers or jumpers?
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jumaringjeff
Oct 30, 2002, 7:17 PM
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Gawd, chill out man, go take your aggressions out on a hard climb rather than spreading bad vibes on this site...
Anyways...
I fear taking trad falls simply because I haven't taken any whippers on my gear yet so I don't have that 'total' confidence in my placements. I know HOW to place pieces and how to inspect them to see wether or not the placement is good, but I guess it's just one of those things that'll bother me until I prove it with a good fallllllllllll....
-jj
[ This Message was edited by: jumaringjeff on 2002-10-30 11:17 ]
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