I don't think he's saying that he has a right to monopolize. I think he's saying that people have a right regardless of access point (pay a guide vs go on your own). And yes, if it's public lands, unless specifically noted otherwise, then folks have access either to enjoy the beauty freely or to profit from them.

I grew up in a national park (Acadia) and have never been offended by the tour buses that take folks out to see the park. Do they hog the roads? Yea, sometimes. Are they annoying when traffic is tight? Certainly. Do I want to strip these folks of their livelihood just because they add to traffic or profit off the park? Absolutely not.

There's no difference between a climbing guide, a tour bus operator, a fishing guide, a hiking guide, a bird-watching guide, a botanist tour guide, etc. They all get paid to take people on to public lands, and they all take up space from those who don't pay these people. What, are we going to ban these folks just because their profit-searching desires impede our personal access? It's a ridiculous assumption.

I guess by your point I should go out and picket the bird-watcher tour groups, because I want to go to the nesting sites and not have to deal with people who paid. Because I know that tourist group who has no clue where the nesting sights are is going to find the best viewing spot and take that away from me, just because she paid and a tour guide told her where to stand. I should be irate!

Who gets to decide what category you are? Isn't this subjective....like say....climbing grades? As far as "guide" goes, it looks like paper in pocket from reputable organization = guide? I understand how registered/certified guides would get upset in a non-certified guide calling themselves a guide, just like a doctor would get pissed by a orderly giving out medical advice. Just because you work in a hospital doesn't mean I want you doing my liver transplant (damn you tequila!!!).

You can't gank her route but you can most certainly gank her thread.

...I was hired, as a guide, to lead people up whatever the hell they wanted. Now if that means they want to climb Kor's Corner (5.12a) then I ain't leading that trip. If they want to do single pitch sport I have the technical skills for that. If they want to do multipitch trad, I have the technical skills for that. Ice climbs, Snow couliours, alpine rock, hiking, backpacking, camping, easy aid climbs, toproping, I'm capable of "guiding" or "instructing" or "leading" all that. Despite the lack of any certification I do in fact guide people up climbs (using guide as a verb their, not a noun big guy, don't get your panties in a bunch). If that doesn't fit your happy little definition or isn't up to someone's fancy little standards that's ok.

I get paid to climb, and you..well you don't.

Only to a point. Are you at all familiar with the numerous climbing destinations where guides are regulated by the land owner/governing agency due to overuse and abuse of the resource?

I grew up in a national park (Acadia) and have never been offended by the tour buses that take folks out to see the park. Do they hog the roads? Yea, sometimes. Are they annoying when traffic is tight? Certainly. Do I want to strip these folks of their livelihood just because they add to traffic or profit off the park? Absolutely not.

There's no difference between a climbing guide, a tour bus operator, a fishing guide, a hiking guide, a bird-watching guide, a botanist tour guide, etc. They all get paid to take people on to public lands, and they all take up space from those who don't pay these people. What, are we going to ban these folks just because their profit-searching desires impede our personal access? It's a ridiculous assumption.

I guess by your point I should go out and picket the bird-watcher tour groups, because I want to go to the nesting sites and not have to deal with people who paid. Because I know that tourist group who has no clue where the nesting sights are is going to find the best viewing spot and take that away from me, just because she paid and a tour guide told her where to stand. I should be irate!

Further, your birding, sightseeing, botany analogy is ridiculous in this context. If three bus loads of Japanese tourists stop in El Cap meadows to admire the Big Stone, they do not in any way prevent me from looking at it. If, however, a "guide" sets up a top rope on an established warm up, then they are directly prohibiting anyone else from getting on that particular route. Unless of course they are sensitive and intelligent enough to allow others their due turn.

BTW, gmburns, have we met? I was head judge at Adult Nationals a few years back; I think I met you at Metrorock?

If someone else had written it, I'd have agreed with it completely, which kinda stands to reason doesn't it -- since I wrote it.


Yes, it's a generalization. Not every person believes that a n00b should be considered a climbing guide. For example, I don't believe it. I don't think edge or petsfed do either. But more and more people do. A decade ago if someone had implied that setting up top ropes for beginners at a sport crag was being a "guide" they'd have been universally ridiculed. Today, the majority of "people," judging by the responses to this thread and others on the subject, seem to think that such a claim is completely reasonable.


Without referencing any? What does that mean. I stated the standard. It's the one AMGA goes by, and their standards are in accord with whoever sets the international standards -- IMGA? If you're interested in the details of the organization, you can look them yourself.


I have no idea what that means.


I use on the order of because I don't recall the exact rating. It's on the order of 10c. Maybe it's 10b, or 10d. I don't recall exactly.


So what? If you have the capability to think about it, it's pretty clear what it means in the context of taking responsibility for a climbing party in a hazardous environment.


Of course it's my opinion. I wrote it.


How about you not tell me what I frequently do, since you obviously have no fucking comprehension what I do.


Hallelujah.


No shit.


Duh.


So what the fuck are you arguing with me for.

Jay

Directly from the AMGA website:

AN AMGA CERTIFIED ROCK GUIDE SHOULD BE ABLE TO:
* On sight guide 2 clients at a 5.10b/c level up to and through grade V.
* Climb traditional and sport protected climbs at a 5.10 level fluidly and comfortably.
* Demonstrate a proficient short roping and transitions techniques in technically demanding terrain.
* Demonstrate a working knowledge of industry standards in equipment
* Create and implement improvised rescue in vertical terrain.
* Use the right technique at the right time.
* Demonstrate proficient terrain assessment, potential hazard, risk management, and client care.
* Show a working knowledge of Leave No Trace Principles.

This is the top level in rock guiding certified by the AMGA. So, I guess the question is, if you are below this level, can you consider yourself a guide? Every guiding organization has paid "guides" who do not fit this description. Are these people "aspiring guides", or "guides at a lower level", or are they merely employees of a guiding company? OR, as Jay put it, are they just "paid beta-givers"?

Josh

Damn, guess I don't meet the AMGA definition of a guide. Damn, I only soloed 5.9 in the sun while wearing rock shoes. You win again. Tell ya what you find a grade V 5.10c in Colorado Springs and a client for me to lead up it and I'll french free that shit all day. Unfortunately the biggest thing here that people are interested in is little 3 pitch climbs. Maybe I'm being ass, which tends to happen from time to time, but I was hired, as a guide, to lead people up whatever the hell they wanted. Now if that means they want to climb Kor's Corner (5.12a) then I ain't leading that trip. If they want to do single pitch sport I have the technical skills for that. If they want to do multipitch trad, I have the technical skills for that. Ice climbs, Snow couliours, alpine rock, hiking, backpacking, camping, easy aid climbs, toproping, I'm capable of "guiding" or "instructing" or "leading" all that.

Fortunately for Cycling it's a matter of race experience. You start at Cat 5 ... have to do a certain amount of races and gain points i believe that allow you to move up. How you exactly gain the points you'd have to ask someone who's raced.

If that whole post is true, then actually, you do meet the AMGA's definition of a guide. You're just not certified.

So the n00b question I have is: does one need some sort of certification (AMGA or otherwise) in order to be allowed to guide? I understand there could be practical applications for this (insurance, for example), but I'm asking about the legal requirements.

Anyone know this?