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angry
May 4, 2008, 4:26 AM
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Ok, maybe the title is a little over the top but I'm going to go on a long tirade right now (less than a rant but not a question either).
I think pulling plastic is bar none, the HARDEST discipline to master in rock climbing. I give major props to those so called "gym rats" those little bastards are some of the fittest climbers on earth.
I'm quite serious (all my trolls have homosexual inuendos). I climb about 4-5 days a week weather permitting. This ranges from big multipitch routes, to fixing an entire sport crag and assaulting it with my mini-trax, to 9 pitch days in Indian Creek, to crack bouldering, campus training, slab climbing, ice, mixed, and even sport. Name the style and I'm pretty well versed.
By a long shot I'm not the best climber out there but I can hold my own. Except at the gym. I am usually too tired to pull hard after 2 routes. My personal best is three at my limit. On my absolute best days I have climbed about 2 letter grades below my best sends outside, and that is a very rare day. It takes about 1 hour to completely drain me and I will fall on routes with ratings I wouldn't think twice about free-soloing.
The holds stick out, they're marked, but god-damn gym climbing is hard.
I declare, at the onset of this post, that gym climbing is the most advanced form of climbing. I'm not talking about coolest location, beautiful routes, moves, or a drum circle at the camp fire. I'm talking about the most in-your-face fully hard place you can climb.
The motherfucking gym. Plastic has my utmost respect.
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wmfork
May 4, 2008, 5:16 AM
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No shit! How else do you explain being able to red point honest 12+ on gear but not having much of a chance of sending a 12+ with pre-placed draws in the gym??? Mad props to those that can pull hard in the gym.
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coastal_climber
May 4, 2008, 5:17 AM
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So how many posts do you want this one to be?
>Cam
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wmfork
May 4, 2008, 5:25 AM
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OT! Be serial here!!!
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macblaze
May 4, 2008, 7:39 PM
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angry wrote: Ok, maybe the title is a little over the top but I'm going to go on a long tirade right now (less than a rant but not a question either). I think pulling plastic is bar none, the HARDEST discipline to master in rock climbing. I give major props to those so called "gym rats" those little bastards are some of the fittest climbers on earth. I'm quite serious (all my trolls have homosexual inuendos). I climb about 4-5 days a week weather permitting. This ranges from big multipitch routes, to fixing an entire sport crag and assaulting it with my mini-trax, to 9 pitch days in Indian Creek, to crack bouldering, campus training, slab climbing, ice, mixed, and even sport. Name the style and I'm pretty well versed. By a long shot I'm not the best climber out there but I can hold my own. Except at the gym. I am usually too tired to pull hard after 2 routes. My personal best is three at my limit. On my absolute best days I have climbed about 2 letter grades below my best sends outside, and that is a very rare day. It takes about 1 hour to completely drain me and I will fall on routes with ratings I wouldn't think twice about free-soloing. The holds stick out, they're marked, but god-damn gym climbing is hard. I declare, at the onset of this post, that gym climbing is the most advanced form of climbing. I'm not talking about coolest location, beautiful routes, moves, or a drum circle at the camp fire. I'm talking about the most in-your-face fully hard place you can climb. The motherfucking gym. Plastic has my utmost respect.
I absolutely hate posts like this. Just where is the tongue-in-cheek factor situated in this. I get out like 6-8 times a year times for about 4 years. That's not a lot of outdoors. My hardest climb to date is a 5.10 which is what I consider a no-brainer in the gym. But move for move, grade for grade I really suspect indoor s is harder. I wanna believe! I should be climbing harder outdoors...
But... how do I know? the uncertainly is killing me. If I show up a a new crag and try and take on a 10c, am I just wasting gear? All those bail biners I will have to leave behind.... aaaargh who made up this silly-ass system any way!!!
The only solution I see is to move to Squamish or Yosemite or Vegas or somewhere and climb ever day... I wish...
(This post was edited by macblaze on May 4, 2008, 7:42 PM)
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crimping_bum
May 4, 2008, 8:31 PM
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I think that Gym routes have a certain unique style to them that you don't see as much outside. After all, all gym routes were created by a person. Outdoor routes are people using existing features and creating a route. But in the gym the setter creates every move and sequence from scratch. This allows for a whole lot more creativity and diversity which helps when trying to make something that is truly kick ass.
But I still think rock is better than plastic . . .
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originalpmac
May 4, 2008, 10:05 PM
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personally, I think gym climbing sucks. The only thing it has going for it, is rainy days, and staying in shape. that said, I think gym climbing has developed some truly horrendous ethics. A younger generation of climbers, cutting their teeth on plastic routes may be able to send hard, but the notion of always setting routes in a controlled environment, I believe leads to people chipping holds. And that sucks. gym climbing is climbing only in the sense that you are physically moving up, that is it. Gym climbing sucks. Period.
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Gmburns2000
May 5, 2008, 12:15 AM
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Depends on the gym. Some sandbag just for kicks, some are soft because that's just how they manage grade consistency, and some gyms have setters who don't know how to set properly (e.g. - instead of using the perfect hold to make a certain move harder, they just turn the hold they've already plugged say, "There! That's makes it harder").
True, gym climbing keeps me stronger, but I have to say that I climb way harder in the gym than I do outside (mid-11s in the gym, easy 10s outside on sport and 5.9 max on trad these days). To be honest, I think that's more typical than your point above. Maybe outdoor climbing instills a fear that keeps people from climbing harder outside, but it's kind of tough to follow that logic when one actually climbs harder inside than out.
edit: typo
(This post was edited by Gmburns2000 on May 5, 2008, 12:16 AM)
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IBarrett
May 5, 2008, 2:44 AM
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I love the rock gym! I think it is a great place to learn w/o killing yourself when you are first starting out. I think that no matter how much outside climbing I do, I will still come back to the gym. I love the different routes/problems and all of their technicalities. Besides, when it is 115 degrees outside this summer and I am trapped in this town, I think a/c is gonna be a good thing.
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chossmonkey
May 5, 2008, 11:19 AM
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H3ll iz l0ngR 4 Angry!!!!11!!!1
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wormly81
May 5, 2008, 12:27 PM
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Angry,
First off; props on your mini rant/non-question/tirade. I know a good post when its impossible to figure out where the true beliefs end and the complete and utter bullshit begins. That being said...
I learned to climb outside and put in maybe 200 days of climbing with a visit or two to the gym. I did some sport, followed on gear, became a leader, and then expanded into winter climbing. The perspective that drove my foray into traditional and winter climbing was a goal of moving further and further away from the hordes of climbers. When I started ice climbing, it came as a complete shock to me that ice was a significantly more limited resource than rock. I came to the conclusion that its near impossible to have a career (i.e. climb the weekends) and have climbing be something you share only with your partner and nature. The same mentality that has me driving 600 miles a weekend in the winter is not unique to me; there are less crowded places to climb but its just plain stupid to think that you can climb unencumbered by a social presence.
Its also important that I mention that during this time, I did little else than work and drink during the week. I would say my particular line of business requires high energy output over a longer than normal work week but I may be blowing smoke up my own ass (note that this self-important BS flows freely between my job and climbing... I have noticed this is a cornerstone of the sterotypical climbers mindset). So along I went... climbing my ass off on the weekends and working my ass off during the week.
I invested alot of time in learning and (hopefully) became a competent leader. I was happy with the results but realized that in the grand scheme of things, I was climbing like shit. Note I am not speaking to the mental aspects here but simply the physical component. I was weak and found myself unable to lead on gear consistently. When a route was difficult (pumpy) to protect, I failed miserably because I couldnt hold on. I came to the realization that in order to climb the mega-classic climbs, all I needed to do was be able to consistently lead 5.10 on gear. As much as I saw this as not the most difficult goal to reach, I felt I could not reach it climbing two days a week.
Around the same time I moved out of the city (and away from the booze). Turns out theres a gym 3 miles from my house and I started bouldering to release stress (instead of drinking beer). I forgot how much I enjoy a good thrashing. Watching 5 year old kids float V6 while I was getting shut down on easier problems was a very interesting experience.
I guess my point is that the gym always seemed to be the complete opposite of what I loved about climbing. In hindsight, that mindset was probably a crutch to insulate myself from the fact that I was not physically climbing harder. Bottom line is, I do not regret the time I spent climbing easy routes and learning to be a leader. I figure that I came to a point where a paradigm shift was necessary to capitalize on that effort.
I'm still a work in process but I know for sure that I have never started a rock season this strong. 12 months ago I would have staunchly espoused the idea that gym climbing was antathema to the purity and beauty of rockclimbing. I guess now I'm just going to capitulate and say... different tools for different goals.
Best,
Jeff
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j_ung
May 5, 2008, 12:44 PM
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Angry, it's all about what you're used to. I've gone through long periods during which the only climbing I did was indoors. During those times, real rock seemed far harder. Nowadays, climbing almost 100% outside, when I do hit the gym, I leave with my ass in my hands.
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granite_grrl
May 5, 2008, 2:29 PM
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The gym kicks my ass. 
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T-Bone
May 5, 2008, 2:57 PM
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At my gym we don't use the yosemite scale. we rate the route with a G and a number. G1 is a jug haul. G2 is ~5.6-5.8; G3 is ~5.9; G5 is 5.11+
I have learned a lot at that gym, between forays to the adirondacks. Creative routesetting can even make gym routes that require crack-like movement, which is an interesting experience.
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lena_chita
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May 5, 2008, 3:01 PM
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angry wrote: Gyms are for gym masters!!!.
Fixed that for you!
Seriously though, it depends on particular persons and circumstances.
Contrary to the "gym rats will have their asses handed to them on real rock" sentiment that I've heard expressed many times, I personally know some strong long-time-gym-only climbers/boulderers who were leading 5.12s (successfully) the first time they ever got on real rock. I know people who only get out to real rock maybe once or twice a year, climbing in the gym only for the rest of the time -- and kick ass when they do get out.
the reverse is true, too -- I know people who have been climbing outside for decades who come into the gym and flail on a simple 5.9 toprope on an overhanging wall-- because they are used to less-than-vertical climbs, and that overhang just kills them.
Of course, I also know the swaggering-gym-climber-who-wimps-out-on-real-rock types, the scenario that everyone likes to laugh at when they want to prove that gym climbing is not real rock-climbing... but it is not the only possible scenario by any means.
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angry
May 5, 2008, 3:23 PM
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There is no place that I go that I can get such a consistent ass whooping.
I haven't decided whether I'm going to go try a 12d crack climb or 12d sport route after breakfast today. Either way, I know I'll make more progress than even a 12b at the gym. And I'll be able to climb tomorrow, not destroyed for 3 days.
The gym is fucking hard.
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kyote321
May 5, 2008, 4:11 PM
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i think the issue with gyms is that many are not made to train, they are made to trick.
training is a flow of moment at a given grade. tricks are what the routesetter often does to 'simulate the outdoors' or 'not make indoor climbing too easy so noobies get all happy then get shutdown outside.'
only a handful of gyms actually train people. most are absolutely obsesssed with sandbagging - and mostly among themselves. you don't want to be the only gym in town that has realistic grades - that would brand you as the sportclimber's gym.
i do long routes in the gym and that is about it. the bouldering grades are so laughable that it would be funny except that i waste a lot of time and energy finding a route that really is the grade i want to climb.
got shut down on 5.11 in the gym last week, then flashed a solid 12 outside over the weekend and worked a hard 12.
best not to take the gym, gym, scene, or the smell too seriously.
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Valarc
May 5, 2008, 4:42 PM
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angry wrote: There is no place that I go that I can get such a consistent ass whooping.
You didn't mention which gym you go to, but being in Colorado I could take some guesses. There's a reason a LOT of the big SCS and ABS comps get hosted in CO... the state has one of the highest concentrations of kickass gyms and amazingly talented routesetters. It's also worth noting that a lot of those big name routesetters (who often set for American comps and the flashy showmanship that goes with comp setting) tend to emphasize bouldery problems, whether you're on rope or not. When one of these guys sets a 30-foot 12c indoors, it will probably be a consistent string of V4/V5 moves, designed to squeeze as much hard climbing as possible into that little gym. There will be no 11b climb with a 12c crux when these guys are turning the wrench.
My point? Assuming you are serious, which I still have my doubts - if the gym is surprisingly hardcore for you, it's likely due to your location. Visit some gyms on the east coast and you'll likely think gyms are soft and sort of pathetic, as the skill of the routesetters over here isn't as consistently awesome.
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dagibbs
May 6, 2008, 7:36 PM
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I've done a fair bit of indoor climbing, at a fair variety of gyms, and a bit of outdoors.
The biggest difference I've noticed is that indoors you always know where your next hold is, you just have to figure out how to get to it, while outdoors you often don't know where your next hold is, so you move up the rock and try to find a hold.
And, the gym experience really varies, as does the ratings on the routes. Short gyms tend to have routes that are more bouldery -- a 5.9 will be several 5.9 moves; taller gyms are more likely to have a 5.9 be a long series of 5.7 and 5.8 moves with a couple 5.9 crux moves.
(I've climbed at 17 different gyms, mostly accross the USA though a few in Canada and one in Germany. I've climbed at about 4 or 5 local crags, but nothing big name.)
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munky
May 6, 2008, 8:48 PM
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It just a matter of getting used to the environment. If you climb at the Creek regularly, it will start to feel easier. if you climb in the Valley for a few seasons, the big long hard free routes will start to feel easy. if you spend a fall at the NRG you will be cranking there as well. And if you spend a few months getting used to the plastic blobs and assorted trickery holds that are now used in a gym you will find that you'll be able to read the routes better and start cranking at your level in no time. Gym climbing seems to be less technical and play to power whereas outside climbing is much more technical and in general less power oriented.
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angry
May 6, 2008, 9:00 PM
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No
I can go to an area I've never ever climbed and onsight within a grade of my max the day I show up. Within 3 days, I'll be able to climb up to my limit there. I've proven this to myself time and again.
I can spend 5 months in a gym and still get crushed each and every time.
The gym is harder, face it.
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shanz
May 6, 2008, 9:38 PM
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gym ratings are subjective - seems like i work harder in the gym than i do outdoors. and the gym kicks my butt at times beyond that, in a gym its all plastic, theres no beauty as there is outdoors. I have spent 2-3 hours at the crag just checking out the formations and checking out possible routes. In the gym i just see plastic nothing seriously interesting to walk around and look at. i pick a gym route and jump on it. The gym has also taught me to move in ways that my crag doesnt(due to each crag having similar rock formations).. I still say that gyms are for training but real rock is why i climb
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hafilax
May 6, 2008, 9:57 PM
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It's probably just my gym but I find the fitness needed in the gym to be completely different from that for our local rock.
In the gym:
-the foot holds are huge
-the routes are short and vertical to overhanging
-the holds are ergonomic
Outside:
-the footholds are smears or jams
-the routes are long and less than vertical
-the holds are jams or crimps
It's two different disciplines. I don't sport climb much though and have been told that my gym and outdoor grades will be closer since the fitness and techniques are more similar.
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dagibbs
May 7, 2008, 1:52 AM
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shanz wrote: gym ratings are subjective
ALL ratings are subjective. But, if a lot of people climb and talk about a route, then it's rating is more likely to be subjectively close to other ratings.
At some gyms, routes are rated based on consensus, at others the setters decides the rating, at still others it is a combination.
Outside, it is (almost) always consensus of the climbers.
shanz wrote: nothing seriously interesting to walk around and look at.
I've found, actually, that gyms often have a good concentration of some of the best scenery around. :)
(This post was edited by dagibbs on May 7, 2008, 1:55 AM)
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Myxomatosis
May 7, 2008, 2:37 AM
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I train twice a week indoors and climb outdoors nearly every weekend.
I find that the first climb back at the gym after a solid weekend of cranking I always think to myself "goddam that hold is massive!!!"  and therefore find the gym rather easy. Over hanging routes take a whole new type of technique that needs to be learnt.
The gym is a tool, its easy to get completly pumped, rest for 10 minutes, crank hard again, rest and repeat.
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munky
May 7, 2008, 3:13 AM
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That's crazy man. i dunno... know that at my gym and local Washington DC (sportrock, Earthtreks) gyms I climb roughly what i do outside. I've been climbing almost 10 years now, starting outside and and its only been the last 4 years or so where about half of my climbing is done indoors training in a gym. At first I felt like 5.12, V5 was way too hard but now they seem easy- in fact easier than outside and less technical. Obviously almost all gym climbing is face climbing which doesn't translate equally to the tips laybacks, jams, stems, and leavitation trickery used in many traditional crack lines. But you said you climbed sport outside too so that doesn't really prove any point. I agree that the gym rats pulling down in those dungeons regularly are some of the physically strongest climbers out there but as you probably know its quite the show when you see them outside getting bouted on 5.12s because they can't read the rock for shit. i always chuckle at that one. oh you can campus V7 inside but you're getting shut down on a 12b face climb. Shut the f- down! i love it.
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Physicist
Jun 17, 2008, 3:41 AM
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I feel the opposite way. I started climbing indoors at Earth Treks, and even when I hadn't climbed in ~1.5 years and started up again, I could climb 5.10s and V3s indoors. Outdoors I could only do V2s and 5.8s initially.
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keithspernak
Jun 17, 2008, 5:49 AM
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Have you been drinking?
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TheHawk
Jun 17, 2008, 8:23 AM
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I love the gym i think its a great tool. It helps improve endurance, strength in tendons and muscles, and toughens your skin so when you do go outdoors its not like taking sandpaper to your ass. The one reason i think constant gym climbers climb so hard especially in a gym, is because they have become numb to the fears associated with climbing because they are subjected to such things as falls repeatedly in a relatively safe environment. As for me i struggle outdoors, because my overactive mind always imagines the worst possible scenarios. But i have never come across a route outside rated within my abilities that i found to tough and i attribute that to my time spent in the gym.
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Rt92
Jun 17, 2008, 10:10 AM
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TheHawk wrote: they have become numb to the fears associated with climbing because they are subjected to such things as falls repeatedly in a relatively safe environment.
You say that, but my gyms always full of kids aged about 5 that are constantly like an inch away from causing a serious accident
(This post was edited by Rt92 on Jun 17, 2008, 10:46 AM)
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Valarc
Jun 17, 2008, 11:14 AM
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Physicist wrote: I feel the opposite way. I started climbing indoors at Earth Treks, and even when I hadn't climbed in ~1.5 years and started up again, I could climb 5.10s and V3s indoors. Outdoors I could only do V2s and 5.8s initially.
I've only climbed at earth treks once, when I was visiting family, but their ratings were SOFT. A V1 at earth treks was probably the equivalent of a 5.8 at most. It has nothing to do with the actual difficulty of climbing on plastic, but rather the highly inflated ratings given by a gym that's trying to make their customers feel better about themselves.
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jermanimal
Jul 1, 2008, 5:02 PM
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hafilax wrote: It's probably just my gym but I find the fitness needed in the gym to be completely different from that for our local rock. In the gym: -the foot holds are huge -the routes are short and vertical to overhanging -the holds are ergonomic Outside: -the footholds are smears or jams -the routes are long and less than vertical -the holds are jams or crimps It's two different disciplines. I don't sport climb much though and have been told that my gym and outdoor grades will be closer since the fitness and techniques are more similar.
Agree.
It has been said time and time again that climbing indoors IS NOT rock climbing. Many of the indoor routes have moves you just don't need outside, but are key for indoor acrobatics.
Clearly if you want to climb outside better, climb outside more. If you want to climb indoors better, climb indoors more.
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rtwilli4
Jul 6, 2008, 5:26 AM
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I get spanked at the gym whenever I go, which I rarely do. I do think it's harder.
However, it is no comparison to real climbing. There are many variables outdoors that make up for the difficulty of the moves in a gym.
Don't get me wrong, I respect those who pull hard on plastic and feel sorry for those that have no access to outdoor climbing but, like it said, its no comparison. You have to deal with so many things outdoors that are not present indoors.
I have done most of my scary climbing in Thailand on sharp, fragile rock, with rusty bolts, fixed anchors that are SO old and f cked, with wind blowing and rain pouring. Not to mention that you have to kayak there and step right off the boat onto the verticle rock and then rap back down into the boat (assuming your rope doesn't get caught on the sharp, velcro-like rock when you pull after the first rap. All of that, and this is only SPORT climbing!
I invite any 'gym rat' to come climb the 5.10 towers in the Andaman sea... I guarantee you'll shit your pants and pump out way before we get to the top. Then shit your pants again on the way down :)
(This post was edited by rtwilli4 on Jul 6, 2008, 5:27 AM)
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rockgirlCO
Jul 10, 2008, 7:33 PM
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I started outdoors and only in the last two years started spending my winters indoors in order to keep in shape. (It has definitely helped me progress.) Some of the observations below are what others have concluded and some are my opinons:
I've been told:
*indoor routes are generally sustained (almost all of the moves are the grade), while outdoors, a route will be graded based on its hardest move (there might be only 1 move at its grade).
*a 5.X indoors can generally be considered a 5.X -2 outdoors (e.g. 5.10 roughly equals a 5.8); I've found this to be a good guideline, not a rule. I'm not foolish enough to think that if I can do a 5.10 indoors, I can do a 5.10 in Eldo. (Eldo keeps me humble.) Elsewhere I might do just fine.
As a new sport leader outdoors, I'm practically embarrassed by what grade I am leading vs. what I do in the gym. I've been analyzing the difference, from a leader perspective, and I think the biggest difference is all psychological. I have to find all my holds and figure out the moves above pro outdoors, and it is pretty hard to escape from that seed in your subconscious, even when very focussed, even when rationalizing the situation. (Yes I've read Arno's book.) Beyond that, I'm not sure why I'm substantially less afraid indoors (while leading)...holds/bolts/belayers can fail indoors too.
Re: CO gyms, having climbed a lot at both R&J and BRC, both have some really good setters and both have some into sandbagging (it seems). In the end, whether you like that sort of monkeywrenching is up to you. I like "flow" in my routes personally. I went to Earthtreks, MD one time and it seemed like the routes were set by boulderers: a required dyno for the first move on all the routes I did. I didn't like it but I bet the people who are use to going there didn't have as much of a problem as I did.
In the end, I have to agree with a previous post: the gym is just training for the real thing. If you can get outside all the time, why bother with the gym?
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angry
Jul 10, 2008, 7:51 PM
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Eldo might be a little exception. I can climb about the same there, on lead, as I can at the gym.
Everywhere else, I'm better than at the gym.
I still don't understand how someone can crank at the gym and not outdoors. Move for move, the plastic is so much harder.
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hafilax
Jul 10, 2008, 7:59 PM
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I climb cracks and slabs (and combinations thereof) outside so the skills I develop in the gym don't translate well. I can boulder at about the same level inside as out in my area though. Especially if the problem is at about 45.00 degrees 
I also peter out at about the exact height of my gym. I really need to start running laps to break that mental and physical barrier.
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rockgirlCO
Jul 10, 2008, 8:06 PM
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Not doing multi-pitch routes has lowered my endurance and there's not a darn thing climbing the gym will do about that! Just have to get outside (running, hiking, climbing multi-pitch).
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patmay81
Jul 10, 2008, 8:15 PM
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I wish there was a gym where I live, then I could do some "real" rock climbing. As it is I am stuck bouldering on the beach or driving to the crag- those things are really dirty and there's no drinking fountain!
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ryanb
Jul 10, 2008, 8:55 PM
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angry wrote: Eldo might be a little exception. I can climb about the same there, on lead, as I can at the gym. Everywhere else, I'm better than at the gym.
It seems clear everywhere else is soft then right???
I noticed at the gym i went to this last winter (stone gardens in seattle) that the ratings seemed in line with the outdoors in the fall but got harder as the winter progressed. I think the issue is that the setters (mostly good and accomplished outdoors climbers who work at the gym full time) get really strong at gym skills being in there all day all winter long and so when the ratings feel in line with outdoor ratings for them they might not for the rest of us.
That said, make a pilgrimage and spend a few days on 11s and 12s at the Index, WA town walls and I guarantee that gym ratings will start to seem soft.
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docburner
Jul 10, 2008, 10:15 PM
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What I usually find is that somewhere in the grading there is a change in how it tracks outdoors. For example in my gym usually anything up to 10c or so is a couple of grades soft. Everything from 10d-11b is dead on. Everything after that is wildly misrated. Maybe its just because all of the setters are boulders and I doubt they ever lead.
My favorite quote when I asked one of the strongest climbers what they thought of the blue 11d and his response was "well its obviously harder then the 13s". So the worst part of our gym is you have no clue how hard the climb is going to be.
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spikeddem
Jul 11, 2008, 4:16 AM
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angry wrote: This ranges from big multipitch routes, to fixing an entire sport crag and assaulting it with my mini-trax, to 9 pitch days in Indian Creek, to crack bouldering, campus training, slab climbing, ice, mixed, and even sport.
(Emphasis my own.)
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jaybro
Jul 11, 2008, 8:19 AM
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yer such a troll, angry, fug that climbin shid an pull plastic, just another varient ( devient?)
See you at Boogaloo 2? Same cell#?
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winglessangel
Jul 11, 2008, 11:17 PM
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I disagree.
IMO gym is not harder than rock, neither rock is harder than gym.
Rock climbing is one sport and gym climbing is a completely different one.
Of course, training on one can help your abilities on the other, but only up to a limit.
I say that cause you claim to be a bad-ass rock climber who can't pull a send on plastic and I know other like you. But I also know plenty of gym rats who can't send a 5.10+ sport with pre-placed draws.
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angry
Jul 11, 2008, 11:22 PM
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spikeddem wrote: angry wrote: This ranges from big multipitch routes, to fixing an entire sport crag and assaulting it with my mini-trax, to 9 pitch days in Indian Creek, to crack bouldering, campus training, slab climbing, ice, mixed, and even sport.(Emphasis my own.)
I see no errors here.
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angry
Jul 11, 2008, 11:33 PM
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jaybro wrote: yer such a troll, angry, fug that climbin shid an pull plastic, just another varient ( devient?) See you at Boogaloo 2? Same cell#?
I haven't changed my cell in 5 years, so if you have it, it's it. I'll send a PM.
Looking at my schedule, it looks likely. I didn't plan on it at all, but I've got nothing going on those two days at all. That's great that you put it on a monday and tuesday, those are the two days of the week I almost never work so it could happen.
BTW, I don't do the wide fetish thing, but I finally sent my longtime OW proj. I called it crumbling reality. It was appropriate in many ways. I also couldn't climb that grade in a gym.
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dudemanbu
Jul 12, 2008, 2:29 AM
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Angry, just wondering.. have you ever climbed in connecticut?
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sungam
Jul 12, 2008, 11:58 AM
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angry wrote: I think pulling plastic is bar none, the HARDEST discipline to master in rock climbing. I give major props to those so called "gym rats" those little bastards are some of the fittest climbers on earth.
Only if they would take it ouzide.
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dondada
Aug 3, 2008, 4:11 AM
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i agree...the gym is like "lets see how many pull-ups you can do" after doing it once your pretty much done......i can climb for hours outdoors and feel great... when i go inside i get my ass kicked in 45 min and i have 50 year old chicks cruising up 5.11's next to me and i cant scratch my way up a 5.8..out doors im a pretty solid 5.9 climber...but i do think from gym to gym makes a huge difference....vertical heven in ventura, CA had way stiffer grades than edgeworks in tacoma, WA....but in general i must agree with the op
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SamScott
Aug 5, 2008, 10:54 PM
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I prefer being in a gym than outside. Climbing outside has in my experience been slow and bumbling. I've never pushed myself as I do inside.
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patmay81
Aug 5, 2008, 11:06 PM
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I can understand a gym being harder than face climbs at the crag, I mean the plastic gets all chalky and slimy and very hard to crimp. but to prefer the gym to outdoors? do you live in Florida or something? A bad day at the crag is a thousand times better than the best day in a gym!
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SamScott
Aug 5, 2008, 11:10 PM
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I live in the Lake District it's pretty much all trad. +Of my two climbing partners one was my mother  and the other was retarded enough to stand on his rope while leading and take a 10 ft fall and breaking his wrist.
Climbing inside just appeals to me. I love the people and the climbs.
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patmay81
Aug 6, 2008, 12:20 AM
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I suppose if I think back that is what I used to like about the gym too, the security of padded floors and closely spaced draws; and hanging out with friends. I haven't been inside a gym in years; since I graduated I lost all my friends and could care less about padded floors any more.
By the way, my current climbing partner (when I have one) is my dad. Its not so bad because he usually buys the beer and I know I can count on him to do whatever it takes to keep me from decking. I'm pretty sure he would jamb is finger in his atc if that's what it took, I doubt I'd get the same attention and concern from any other belayer!
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sungam
Aug 6, 2008, 7:29 AM
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SamScott wrote: I live in the Lake District it's pretty much all trad. +Of my two climbing partners one was my mother and the other was retarded enough to stand on his rope while leading and take a 10 ft fall and breaking his wrist. Climbing inside just appeals to me. I love the people and the climbs.
Cumbria fuckin' rocks!
It's like a little wanna-be highlands that does a half decent job of be-ing.
Look dude, go on UKC, post up for a partner for Castle rock THIS WEEKEND, hook up with some dude/dudette, and go Climb "Overhanging Bastion" it's like VS and it will rock your sox off- a good time garenteed.
And if that don't catch the bug... you're doomed to be a gym gumby for ever. (or, if you are a rock master, drive/bus to malham or something, that'll put you through your paces and push you to your limits).
Another one to try would be the direct start to bracket and slab at gimmer (langdale, I think)
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SamScott
Aug 6, 2008, 1:26 PM
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In reply to: You, sir, are an ass. Cumbria fuckin' rocks!
Im the fuckin Ray Mears of the north me. Don't tell me how awesome Cumbria is because I goddam live there. I'm more of a walker, hiker. The hills are my bitch.
Next summer maybe. I haven't touched a crag in months and ain't been to a gym in more.
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camhead
Aug 6, 2008, 1:33 PM
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I will admit, as far as lead climbing goes, I am WAY more scared in the gym than outside. The clips are way close together, so you can't get into any kind of rhythm, and usually the routes are short enough that you never get out of groundfall zone. Sketchy.
Leading outside is way less sketch.
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j_ung
Aug 6, 2008, 2:03 PM
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Hell, maybe your gym is just sandbagged. Or its routesetters suck.
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desertwanderer81
Dec 22, 2009, 12:02 AM
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rockgirlCO wrote: Not doing multi-pitch routes has lowered my endurance and there's not a darn thing climbing the gym will do about that! Just have to get outside (running, hiking, climbing multi-pitch).
I personally like to get on a moderate gym route, 5.10 or whatever and then climb it 5 times or so in a row with no break ;)
That will get you nice and out of breath!
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bill413
Jan 3, 2010, 2:30 PM
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One difference I haven't seen mentioned is that in the gym you can hop on routes faster than outdoors. Outside, you set up or lead/climb a route, pull the rope, move to a new climb, set up or lead/climb...the transitions take time.
In the gym, transitioning from route to route is quicker.
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rschap
Jan 3, 2010, 5:46 PM
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The only problem I see with this thread is shouldn’t be titled “Gyms are for Plastic masters!!!”?
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Jan 4, 2010, 1:40 AM
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Gyms don't have offwidths. There was some hard ass guy here who used to specialize in climb sick off widths. He even wore socks under his shoes. He was that tough. Wonder what happened to him?
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quiteatingmysteak
Jan 4, 2010, 1:56 AM
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angry wrote: I still don't understand how someone can crank at the gym and not outdoors. Move for move, the plastic is so much harder.
I larnt to climb in a gymnasium.
I can climb routes in the great outdoors way harder than I would even try when I was a gym rat.
The routes I used to send on the plastic, couldn't touch these days. Not even close. I head to the gym maybe once every other month and keep it around 5.9.
on TR.
You're good at what you do, mang. I'm not really good at anything...
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USnavy
Jan 4, 2010, 12:07 PM
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angry wrote: I think pulling plastic is bar none, the HARDEST discipline to master in rock climbing. I give major props to those so called "gym rats" those little bastards are some of the fittest climbers on earth.
Please mention this to the numerous "5.12" gym climbers who came to Hawaii to visit and got their asses (repeatedly) kicked on 5.10 lines. I have yet to see a single gym climber lead anything in Hawaii even remotely close to the grade they say they lead in the gym.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 4, 2010, 12:09 PM)
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I_do
Jan 5, 2010, 8:07 AM
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USnavy wrote: angry wrote: I think pulling plastic is bar none, the HARDEST discipline to master in rock climbing. I give major props to those so called "gym rats" those little bastards are some of the fittest climbers on earth. Please mention this to the numerous "5.12" gym climbers who came to Hawaii to visit and got their asses (repeatedly) kicked on 5.10 lines. I have yet to see a single gym climber lead anything in Hawaii even remotely close to the grade they say they lead in the gym.
And I've yet to meet the first climber who climbs outside even a few days a year and doesn't climb harder outdoors then in the gym. That story is so old, most people who climb well in the gym will get really good really fast when they venture into the not so great outdoors.
Cheers
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mr.tastycakes
Jan 6, 2010, 2:50 PM
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I_do wrote: And I've yet to meet the first climber who climbs outside even a few days a year and doesn't climb harder outdoors then in the gym.
*raises hand*
I got in over 50 days on rock last season (not counting running circuits at the local boulders), and I climb harder in the gym than I do outside. My gym simply offers a completely different style of climbing compared with the local outdoor stuff - 30 foot, severely overhanging, juggy gym routes don't prepare one very well for 150 long, vertical or slightly off-vertical trad routes with finicky gear. My indoor/outdoor bouldering level is more comparable.
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angry
Jan 6, 2010, 3:14 PM
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Likely you are a very poorly consolidated climber.
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camhead
Jan 6, 2010, 3:33 PM
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angry wrote: Likely you are a very poorly consolidated climber.
As cool as they are, the Gunks (which I assume he is talking about) is not an area that is representative of nationwide climbing. It is a bit more difficult to push yourself and break into higher grades there, since the gear often gets more finicky as the route difficulty increases. So, it is not surprising if the climber above can, say, climb 5.11 regularly in the gym, but can't touch it outside at his local area. It would be a very different story if he lived in Vegas, Denver, or Kentucky.
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lena_chita
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Jan 6, 2010, 4:09 PM
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I_do wrote: And I've yet to meet the first climber who climbs outside even a few days a year and doesn't climb harder outdoors then in the gym. That story is so old, most people who climb well in the gym will get really good really fast when they venture into the not so great outdoors. Cheers
I agree that people who climb well in the gym get really good really fast when they venture outdoors, once they get used to it.
But I take exception to the statement that they then go ahead to climb HARDER outdoors than in the gym. (Unless the gym grades are really sandbagged)
They might TRY harder (be more motivated) to send a project outside-- that is true.
But I am yet to meet a person who climbs 5.10s in the gym and crushes 5.12 outside, if they regularly climb both in the gym and outside.
In my experience, it evens out. If you regularly climb both in the gym and outside, and if the gym grades and routes are representative of the real world (as much as that is possible), I do not see why there should be any significant difference.
I climb harder routes outside than in the gym -- because the gym doesn't set many topropes in that grade range. But when they do, I climb them.
I boulder harder in the gym-- because I've had a lot more time doing bouldering indoors than outside, and b/c I am a chicken when it comes to bad landings without a large gym pad under me.
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edge
Jan 6, 2010, 4:49 PM
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cracklover wrote: But I can leavittate as good or better than anyone I know. GO
[cough]ahem[/cough]
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i_h8_choss
Jan 6, 2010, 4:55 PM
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aid and solo aid = rock master
runout R trad routes = rock master
1st ascents on gear = rock master
fit little bastards = talented gym climbers
ice = ice master
tusf = STFU
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shockabuku
Jan 6, 2010, 5:31 PM
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cracklover wrote: This is such a stupid discussion. You'll be better at the style you spend more time on. Duh. If 90% of your time is spent pulling plastic, of course you'll climb better in the gym than outdoors. Or if you spend 90% of your time outside, you'll likely get your ass kicked in the gym. On another topic: Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: Gyms don't have offwidths. I learned how to climb offwidth in a gym. In Boston. Of course, it only works in the size range (knee locks) that were in that gym. But I can leavittate as good or better than anyone I know. GO
I probably spend about 5 times more time in the gym than outside and I generally climb better outside. For me, it's very style dependent. In the gym I climb a lot of overhanging terrain, which is very challenging for me. Outside I generally run into combinations of slab (good for me), vertical (okay for me), and less overhang. I think I also climb better outdoors because I'm more psyched about the climbing.
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Tootie
Jan 6, 2010, 5:57 PM
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I climb way harder outdoors...
Maybe cuz its more badass u can smoke your herb and b free....
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cracklover
Jan 6, 2010, 6:00 PM
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edge wrote: cracklover wrote: But I can leavittate as good or better than anyone I know. GO [cough]ahem[/cough]
Hey, the Creek is only a seven hour drive from me. Wanna come play in the spring? Bring some big cams, we'll see what you're made of.
Or at least what the inside of your shins are made of.
GO
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rockforlife
Jan 6, 2010, 6:09 PM
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Tootie wrote: I climb way harder outdoors... Maybe cuz its more badass u can smoke your herb and b free.... |
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edge
Jan 6, 2010, 6:31 PM
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cracklover wrote: edge wrote: cracklover wrote: But I can leavittate as good or better than anyone I know. GO [cough]ahem[/cough] Hey, the Creek is only a seven hour drive from me. Wanna come play in the spring? Bring some big cams, we'll see what you're made of. Or at least what the inside of your shins are made of. GO
It could happen! If we sell our house, plans are for a multi-month road trip with the end game being a relocation to someplace near Boulder, but not in Boulder.
As for off widths, I have a definite genetic advantage. My size 13 feet can stack at all sort of widths, and my hands are so large that the majority of manufacturers XL-sized gloves do not fit me. I actually like a good offwidth.
Low Exposure at the Gunks (led; can't claim an onsight as I had walked under tons of people plugging away at it)
Generator Crack in the Valley. (On-sight, free solo sometime around 1984?)
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cracklover
Jan 6, 2010, 7:16 PM
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edge wrote: cracklover wrote: edge wrote: cracklover wrote: But I can leavittate as good or better than anyone I know. GO [cough]ahem[/cough] Hey, the Creek is only a seven hour drive from me. Wanna come play in the spring? Bring some big cams, we'll see what you're made of. Or at least what the inside of your shins are made of. GO It could happen! If we sell our house, plans are for a multi-month road trip with the end game being a relocation to someplace near Boulder, but not in Boulder. As for off widths, I have a definite genetic advantage. My size 13 feet can stack at all sort of widths, and my hands are so large that the majority of manufacturers XL-sized gloves do not fit me. I actually like a good offwidth. Low Exposure at the Gunks (led; can't claim an onsight as I had walked under tons of people plugging away at it) Generator Crack in the Valley. (On-sight, free solo sometime around 1984?)
That reminds me - you know that old saying about guys with big hands and big feet? Two out of three ain't bad!
BTW I've never been on Generator, but I did do Low Exposure, onsight. My last climb at the Gunks before moving west.
Whether you're out here for good, or if you just come to scope out the scene, do look me up. I owe you one for the loaner gear you gave me to do the Prow.
GO
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tradrenn
Jan 7, 2010, 1:28 AM
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angry wrote: I still don't understand how someone can crank at the gym and not outdoors. Move for move, the plastic is so much harder.
When I started to climb in Canada, I started to climb in a gym and within one to two year I got so good at pulling plastic that I thought I was awesome, 11d plastic. On the other hand my climbing skills outside just royally suck, about 5.6, 5.8 was the scariest thing on this planet. Since I quit gym my outdoor climbing skills went up up up, and just like you I suck at indoor climbing, but I'm proud of it.
V.
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rschap
Jan 7, 2010, 3:42 AM
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I push myself in the gym because I consider it training and I want the best workout I can get. I also pretty much only boulder in the gym and work problems that push my limits and work myself till I just can’t climb any more for the stamina. When I climb outside I’m just looking for fun and do mostly mutipitch so pushing my limits is not really conducive.
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sp00ki
Jan 14, 2010, 9:39 PM
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angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder.
??
This doesn't make sense.
I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly.
regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read.
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cracklover
Jan 14, 2010, 10:31 PM
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sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read.
In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
GO
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slablizard
Jan 20, 2010, 12:53 AM
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Hmmmno, it's harder outside. But as you I climb way better outdoor.
I am WAY more motivated to climb hard outside than in the gym, that's very true, and more motivation translates in better climbing...besides I generally get to the gym at the end of the day, rarely in the morning..as I do outdoor...and of course you feel heavier, more tired...and distracted by well..the pretty girls ;)
Besides the fact that some routes at the gym are not hard..they just suck and have stupid awkward moves with no feet to make the grade...or the holds are so old there's no texture left..so a12a feels way harder
angry wrote: There is no place that I go that I can get such a consistent ass whooping. I haven't decided whether I'm going to go try a 12d crack climb or 12d sport route after breakfast today. Either way, I know I'll make more progress than even a 12b at the gym. And I'll be able to climb tomorrow, not destroyed for 3 days. The gym is fucking hard. |
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angry
Jan 20, 2010, 1:18 AM
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sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read.
I mean a 12b indoors has harder moves than a 12b outdoors.
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PlasticHead
Jan 28, 2010, 7:22 PM
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i agree. 2 hours at the gym is equivalent to an entire day outside. It's hard not to crank too hard at the gym leading to finger injuries.
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USnavy
Feb 2, 2010, 12:08 PM
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angry wrote: sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read. I mean a 12b indoors has harder moves than a 12b 11b outdoors.
Barely, but yes.
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malcolm777b
Feb 2, 2010, 10:22 PM
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angry wrote: sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read. I mean a 12b indoors has harder moves than a 12b outdoors.
Yes. Not to mention that gym routes typically aren't "cruxy". Yes, they may have a crux, but it won't be 5.9 climbing to a 5.12b crux. Gym route setters are typically very keen on what 11+ and 12 feel like.
I think it's sub 11a where gyms are typically soft.
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I_do
Feb 5, 2010, 3:03 PM
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USnavy wrote: angry wrote: sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read. I mean a 12b indoors has harder moves than a 12b 11b outdoors. Barely, but yes.
So how many gyms are there in Hawaii?
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angry
Feb 5, 2010, 3:07 PM
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USnavy wrote: angry wrote: sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read. I mean a 12b indoors has harder moves than a 12b 11b outdoors. Barely, but yes.
Then your gym sucks and it's route setters suck more.
Misquote me again and I'll cram a porcupine up your ass (in a bad way).
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Feb 5, 2010, 3:54 PM
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angry wrote: Misquote me again and I'll cram a porcupine up your ass (in a bad way).
Can you explain to me the difference between the good way and the bad way?
And, more importantly, how did you learn the difference? In a gym? If so, which one?
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USnavy
Feb 7, 2010, 12:03 AM
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angry wrote: USnavy wrote: angry wrote: sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read. I mean a 12b indoors has harder moves than a 12b 11b outdoors. Barely, but yes. Then your gym sucks and it's route setters suck more.
I am sure that’s it. So why is it that I continuously see "5.12" gym climbers from the mainland come here to climb for a few days and get spanked when trying to onsight our 5.10's? Sure our crag is a tad sandbagged but it’s nothing serious, not more than one letter grade.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 7, 2010, 12:07 AM)
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I_do
Feb 7, 2010, 12:07 PM
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USnavy wrote: angry wrote: USnavy wrote: angry wrote: sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read. I mean a 12b indoors has harder moves than a 12b 11b outdoors. Barely, but yes. Then your gym sucks and it's route setters suck more. I am sure that’s it. So why is it that I continuously see "5.12" gym climbers from the mainland come here to climb for a few days and get spanked when trying to onsight our 5.10's? Sure our crag is a tad sandbagged but it’s nothing serious, not more than one letter grade.
Maybe something is wrong with the grades in their gyms or your perception or they rarely climb outdoors idunno. I will reiterate that I onsight harder outdoors then I project in the gym. I don't know anyone who's been outdoors more then a few times who doesn't climb harder outdoors then in the gym. I really don't know where your coming from and think it's mostly in your perception. Sure these dudes you describe exist but maybe you're forgetting all the ones who don't fit in with your ideas? And who says they're 5.12 climbers? A lot of people don't really know what that means and it definately needs more explanation to be meaningfull.
Cheers
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slevin
Feb 8, 2010, 6:42 AM
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angry wrote: I mean a 12b indoors has harder moves than a 12b outdoors.
As you said, move for move plastic is way harder. I think the key reason why gym rats are getting spanked outdoors is inability to read routes and subtle differences in footwork.
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bill413
Feb 8, 2010, 6:52 PM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: angry wrote: Misquote me again and I'll cram a porcupine up your ass (in a bad way). Can you explain to me the difference between the good way and the bad way? And, more importantly, how did you learn the difference? In a gym? If so, which one?
I would suspect that the bad way hurts.
I would avoid whichever gym gives that sort of instruction. I suspect it's not my style of clientele.
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Kevthecoffeeguy
Feb 10, 2010, 4:26 PM
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Best gym rat quote when doing outside climbing for the first time" But, where are the holds..."
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k.l.k
Feb 10, 2010, 11:06 PM
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i climb at least 2 v-grades lower indoors.
i blame the routesetters.
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PlasticHead
Mar 2, 2010, 3:17 PM
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Theres a problem with the routsetters when I have to work my ass off to climb an indoor v5 at my gym....
Then when I go outside, I flash v6's..
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bill413
Mar 2, 2010, 6:35 PM
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PlasticHead wrote: Theres a problem with the routsetters when, I have to work my ass off to climb an indoor v5 at my gym.... Then when I go outside, I flash v6's..
fixt, I think.
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camhead
Mar 2, 2010, 6:40 PM
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PlasticHead wrote: Theres a problem with the routsetters when I have to work my ass off to climb an indoor v5 at my gym.... Then when I go outside, I flash v6's..
PTFTW!
The easy way to get around this problem, of course, is to go to a gym that does not rate its problems. There is even less reason to rate boulder problems in a gym than there is to rate routes.
Oh, and for nostaligia's sake, I'm gonna kick it OLDSCHOOL.
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PlasticHead
Mar 2, 2010, 7:35 PM
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bill413 wrote: PlasticHead wrote: Theres a problem with the routsetters when, I have to work my ass off to climb an indoor v5 at my gym.... Then when I go outside, I flash v6's.. fixt, I think.
"I think, therefore, I am"
(This post was edited by PlasticHead on Mar 2, 2010, 7:36 PM)
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rschap
Mar 4, 2010, 2:28 AM
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camhead wrote: PlasticHead wrote: Theres a problem with the routsetters when I have to work my ass off to climb an indoor v5 at my gym.... Then when I go outside, I flash v6's.. PTFTW! The easy way to get around this problem, of course, is to go to a gym that does not rate its problems. There is even less reason to rate boulder problems in a gym than there is to rate routes. Oh, and for nostaligia's sake, I'm gonna kick it OLDSCHOOL.
I agree, we have five color dots at our gym and appropriately pink is the hardest.
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suprasoup
Mar 4, 2010, 9:57 AM
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cracklover wrote: sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read. In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." GO
WHAT??? "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." Classic!
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Mar 4, 2010, 12:40 PM
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suprasoup wrote: cracklover wrote: sp00ki wrote: angry wrote: Move for move, the plastic is so much harder. ?? This doesn't make sense. I can't tell if it's a bad troll, or you're not explaining yourself correctly. regardless, the thread ended up being a surprisingly interesting read. In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." GO WHAT??? "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." Classic!
Life is pain princess...
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