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majid_sabet
May 27, 2008, 4:49 PM
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As long as I could remember, every time I used my 8 descender device to rappel, the belay loop on my harness ended up twisted some 90 degree. This is due to fact that belay loops in 98% of the harnesses are mounted vertical and once you attach the carabineer, the carabineer loop orientation becomes horizontal and when you attach an 8 descender to the biner, the orientation of 8 becomes vertical meaning, the holes on the 8 are to the side instead of facing you.
When you load your 8 with rope, the weight (tension from your hand) causes the belay loop to rotate 90 degree so when you are rappelling with 8 and even ATC, the belay loop orientation becomes shifted by 90 degree to one side.
ok, try this before you jump on me.
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legion
May 27, 2008, 5:11 PM
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Cool story Hansel...
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acorneau
May 27, 2008, 5:53 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: As long as I could remember, every time I used my 8 descender device to rappel, the belay loop on my harness ended up twisted some 90 degree. When you load your 8 with rope, the weight (tension from your hand) causes the belay loop to rotate 90 degree so when you are rappelling with 8 and even ATC, the belay loop orientation becomes shifted by 90 degree to one side.
Majid,
The webbing is designed to twist as needed, so it's really a non-issue.
Secondly, I have always observed that when using a tube-style device or a Fig-8, the device always turns about 45 degrees, not a full 90 degrees. It will twist no matter if it starts out vertically or horizontally.
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basilisk
May 27, 2008, 8:00 PM
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....or you could just move your hand so it's not twisted.
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jrathfon
May 27, 2008, 8:25 PM
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Something like this?:
...yes, it's a repost, but I also couldn't resist.
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hafilax
May 27, 2008, 8:50 PM
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There's no twisting with a tube device when rappelling with the rope between the legs and minimal twisting when belaying or rappelling off to the side. I've never used an 8 so I can't comment on that scenario.
I've seen people load the rope front to back to belay and the belay loop twisted to allow braking. This is one advantage of the belay loop over a biner through the tie-ins.
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stymingersfink
May 27, 2008, 9:24 PM
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well played, sir... well played.
edit to add:
It would appear that someone got a little "excited" all over your graphic illustrator skills. Wonder who that might have been?
(This post was edited by stymingersfink on May 28, 2008, 2:29 AM)
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Arrogant_Bastard
May 27, 2008, 11:51 PM
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jrathfon wrote: Something like this?: ...yes, it's a repost, but I also couldn't resist.
A very strong entry for the Paint like Majid 2008 Contest.
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dutyje
May 28, 2008, 12:58 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: As long as I could remember, every time I used my 8 descender device to rappel, the belay loop on my harness ended up twisted some 90 degree. This is due to fact that belay loops in 98% of the harnesses are mounted vertical and once you attach the carabineer, the carabineer loop orientation becomes horizontal and when you attach an 8 descender to the biner, the orientation of 8 becomes vertical meaning, the holes on the 8 are to the side instead of facing you. When you load your 8 with rope, the weight (tension from your hand) causes the belay loop to rotate 90 degree so when you are rappelling with 8 and even ATC, the belay loop orientation becomes shifted by 90 degree to one side. ok, try this before you jump on me.
Good point. That's why I always attach another biner directly to that first biner in order to re-orient things by 90 degrees. Then when I put my fig. 8 back on, it's facing the right direction. I hear they're also working on the design of an L-Shaped biner where you can attach one leg of the "L" to the harness belay loop, and the next leg will be at a 90-degree angle to allow for a proper orientation of your rappel device.
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vegastradguy
May 28, 2008, 1:31 AM
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yes, but the real question is-- why are you using a fig-8 to rappel?
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majid_sabet
May 28, 2008, 2:25 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: yes, but the real question is-- why are you using a fig-8 to rappel?
1- I can reconfigure the friction on 8 based on any load on me while this option does not exist with ATC type unless you use another biner or munter....
2- it is easier to lock or unlock the rope
3- The small hole on 8 can be used as regular tube type belay device while tube type do not offer that option
4- lower second in SOL is much easier with 8 than tube type
5- 8 can be used as bear paws (load divider) in CF anchors
6- 8 can be use as hammer in SOL situation to pull gear out or put gear in
7- goof ball is correct, most rescuers do use 8 cause they trust it more than tube type
But among all these, the friction control and the lock/unlock are my main two reasons.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 28, 2008, 2:26 AM)
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Arrogant_Bastard
May 28, 2008, 2:43 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: 3- The small hole on 8 can be used as regular tube type belay device while tube type do not offer that option
That's odd. All the regular tube type belay devices I've owned came with the option to function as a regular tube type belay device.
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shockabuku
May 28, 2008, 3:17 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: As long as I could remember, every time I used my 8 descender device to rappel, the belay loop on my harness ended up twisted some 90 degree. This is due to fact that belay loops in 98% of the harnesses are mounted vertical and once you attach the carabineer, the carabineer loop orientation becomes horizontal and when you attach an 8 descender to the biner, the orientation of 8 becomes vertical meaning, the holes on the 8 are to the side instead of facing you. When you load your 8 with rope, the weight (tension from your hand) causes the belay loop to rotate 90 degree so when you are rappelling with 8 and even ATC, the belay loop orientation becomes shifted by 90 degree to one side. ok, try this before you jump on me.
Here problem solved; can someone please start an interesting thread?
Wow, that thing is expensive.
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vegastradguy
May 28, 2008, 4:28 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: vegastradguy wrote: yes, but the real question is-- why are you using a fig-8 to rappel? But among all these, the friction control and the lock/unlock are my main two reasons.
i guess....although i've never had any issues with friction control with the guide- lots of options there, depending on the load and rope diameter.
as for the locking/unlucking the rope- i assume you mean being able to lock off-- dude, its called a leg wrap.
personally, i think the standard 8 is outdated and serves no real purpose for the average climber. rescue-8s have their purpose, i suppose, but only for folks who train with them for those given scenarios.
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majid_sabet
May 28, 2008, 5:19 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: vegastradguy wrote: yes, but the real question is-- why are you using a fig-8 to rappel? But among all these, the friction control and the lock/unlock are my main two reasons. i guess....although i've never had any issues with friction control with the guide- lots of options there, depending on the load and rope diameter. as for the locking/unlucking the rope- i assume you mean being able to lock off-- dude, its called a leg wrap. personally, i think the standard 8 is outdated and serves no real purpose for the average climber. rescue-8s have their purpose, i suppose, but only for folks who train with them for those given scenarios.
I own every descender you could imagine and I could write a page on pros and cons for each device but among the all, the 8 with side ears ( not rescue 8) and petzl mini rack are among my favorite of all. I know a lot old schoolers who rap with nothing but 8 so there is something about 8 we like and I just do not what else to say about it.
IMO, I think 8 is poor device for belay but does an excellent job for long raps on double ropes and a much better than all other devices other than mini rack.
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vegastradguy
May 28, 2008, 5:35 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: vegastradguy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: vegastradguy wrote: yes, but the real question is-- why are you using a fig-8 to rappel? But among all these, the friction control and the lock/unlock are my main two reasons. i guess....although i've never had any issues with friction control with the guide- lots of options there, depending on the load and rope diameter. as for the locking/unlucking the rope- i assume you mean being able to lock off-- dude, its called a leg wrap. personally, i think the standard 8 is outdated and serves no real purpose for the average climber. rescue-8s have their purpose, i suppose, but only for folks who train with them for those given scenarios. I own every descender you could imagine and I could write a page on pros and cons for each device but among the all, the 8 with side ears ( not rescue 8) and petzl mini rack are among my favorite of all. I know a lot old schoolers who rap with nothing but 8 so there is something about 8 we like and I just do not what else to say about it. IMO, I think 8 is poor device for belay but does an excellent job for long raps on double ropes and a much better than all other devices other than mini rack.
yes, but why would you ever use it to rappel if you dont use it to belay? generally speaking, i dont ever rappel anything unless i have belayed to get there or intend on belaying at the end of the rap- either way, i'm sure not carrying two devices when one will do the job just fine. (hence, the reasons why rescue-8s, and all their incarnations, including 8s with ears, have their uses- rappelling to victims, but no belaying necessary; or for cavers doing short raps, i suppose)
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dutyje
May 28, 2008, 12:04 PM
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lobstertronic wrote: [image]http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-3786489705811_2000_97378546[/image] Hang on, now I'm facing in the wrong direction!
ha! I can't believe there is such a thing.. I was being sarcastic with my post, but that's much better than my L-shaped biner 
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phUnk
Jun 1, 2008, 6:06 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: I could write a page on pros and cons for each device
Thread Subscribed!
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vterinme
Jun 1, 2008, 11:07 PM
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Wow, never used an 8, except for when my over zealous military buddy and I were messing around and rapping our UVM dorms off toilet bowls and radiators.
I've been in few rescues and have yet to see someone with an 8 lower a victim. Of course of all the rescues either we were able to evac, or a team within earshot helped out. Perhaps it's just me and my buddies and our ability to self rescue, luck, and good fortune.
Certainly the 8 has an advantage in some uses, but come on carrying that foolish bit of has been on a climb speeks...............................NOOOOOOOBBBITIIICH.
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grubbjasona
Jun 2, 2008, 5:13 PM
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The only time I experienced any twisting of the belay loop was when I first started climbing and I didn't pay much attention to the direction i threaded the belay device. If rappelling, and you thread the device so the ancor line comes out the top of the and the brake lines comes out the bottome... there should be 0 twisting of the belay loop. Also, with an 8, thread the bite through the bottom of the big hole, this way the brake line will come straight down and no twisting.
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tomtom
Jun 2, 2008, 8:36 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: 6- 8 can be use as hammer in SOL situation to pull gear out or put gear in
When it fails, you'll know why.
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majid_sabet
Jun 2, 2008, 9:12 PM
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tomtom wrote: majid_sabet wrote: 6- 8 can be use as hammer in SOL situation to pull gear out or put gear in How do you test that you are not putting microfractures in your 8 by hammering with it? When it fails, you'll know why.
Every six month, I boil a pot of hot water to about 269 f then drop my 8 in the pot for 45 minutes and wait to see if any visual cracks shows up in the aluminum.
You should try it at least once.
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