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bigwhitej
Jun 26, 2008, 8:33 AM
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Could someone please tell me what is the real reason that some route builders feel that they need to place the first bolt sometime 20ft off the ground. What is the logic behind running out bolts.....what ever happened to doing it the safe way so we come back the next day to climb. If your so mocho then no one is telling then that they have to clip a bolt......no one is forcing anyone to use the bolts.
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dondada
Jun 26, 2008, 9:48 AM
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i cant wait to see how this goes
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getout87
Jun 26, 2008, 11:29 AM
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bigwhitej wrote: Could someone please tell me what is the real reason that some route builders feel that they need to place the first bolt sometime 20ft off the ground. What is the logic behind running out bolts.....what ever happened to doing it the safe way so we come back the next day to climb. If your so mocho then no one is telling then that they have to clip a bolt......no one is forcing anyone to use the bolts.
Stick clip, maybe? That or grow a pair and stop whining about it.
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epoch
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Jun 26, 2008, 12:02 PM
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Usually these route developers carry a large rope gun with them. The purpose of the rope gun is to get the rope into the first bolt. They place that first bolt high off the ground in order to keep gumbies like you from getting on a route that is above your ability, but mostly because if they placed the first bolt lower when you blew that second clip and flew off of the cliff you'd probably deck. This would be a bad thing, so they purposely placed that first bolt high so that they could gainfully employ their ropegun and not have to worry about decking themselves.
Better?
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colatownkid
Jun 26, 2008, 12:12 PM
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rephrasing your question to be less belligerent may yield better responses.
that being said, the first bolt is high off of the ground so you don't deck if you miss the second bolt. 15-20 feet up is usually an accepted number as this is a typical height for boulder problems.
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j_ung
Jun 26, 2008, 2:26 PM
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Agreed. Carry a stick clip (it's sport climbing, after all) and a high first bolt is safer than a low first bolt.
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marc801
Jun 26, 2008, 2:32 PM
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Some area guidebooks even make note of intentionally high first bolts that require a stick-clip. Skaha and New River Gorge are two that immediately come to mind.
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strongmadsends
Jun 26, 2008, 2:42 PM
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IF you can't make it to the first bolt, who's to say you'll make it that much further? If you're uncomfortable running it out, the climb may not be in your range.
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brutusofwyde
Jun 26, 2008, 8:46 PM
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1. I don't establish routes to please you. If you want to clip bolts at eye level, standing on the ground, put up your own routes.
2. I only put in bolts that I consider necessary to do the route safely.
Which brings up:
"What ever happened to doing it the safe way so we can come back next day to climb."
3. Welcome to the world outside the gym. Newsflash: No amount of equipment or bolts can keep you safe. You are on your own out here. Your safety is up to you. If you feel that a route is unsafely bolted, DON'T CLIMB IT. It is your responsibility and your choice to do so or not. Out here, your skills, knowledge, abilities, and focus determine whether you survive or not. Better get used to it.
4. Some of my routes have the first bolt more than 120 feet off the ground. Some have no bolts at all. You figure it out.
5. Get a stick clip.
6. Top rope it.
7. Some of my routes require the use of a 12" cam. (at least for me to climb them safely). Either get one, get good enough to do it without it, or walk away. I aint gonna leave a 12" cam at the bottom for you.
In short, no one is forcing you to climb these routes. Either accept the challenge as is, use a cheater stick, figure out some other way to stay safe on 'em, or climb something else and quit whining.
Brutus
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CrazyPetie
Jun 26, 2008, 8:52 PM
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brutusofwyde wrote: 1. I don't establish routes to please you. If you want to clip bolts at eye level, standing on the ground, put up your own routes. 2. I only put in bolts that I consider necessary to do the route safely. Which brings up: "What ever happened to doing it the safe way so we can come back next day to climb." 3. Welcome to the world outside the gym. Newsflash: No amount of equipment or bolts can keep you safe. You are on your own out here. Your safety is up to you. If you feel that a route is unsafely bolted, DON'T CLIMB IT. It is your responsibility and your choice to do so or not. Out here, your skills, knowledge, abilities, and focus determine whether you survive or not. Better get used to it. 4. Some of my routes have the first bolt more than 120 feet off the ground. Some have no bolts at all. You figure it out. 5. Get a stick clip. 6. Top rope it. 7. Some of my routes require the use of a 12" cam. (at least for me to climb them safely). Either get one, get good enough to do it without it, or walk away. I aint gonna leave a 12" cam at the bottom for you. In short, no one is forcing you to climb these routes. Either accept the challenge as is, use a cheater stick, figure out some other way to stay safe on 'em, or climb something else and quit whining. Brutus
Just out of curiousity, are the routes where you bolt at 120ft mixed? or is that a stupid question haha
(This post was edited by CrazyPetie on Jun 26, 2008, 8:54 PM)
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cracklover
Jun 26, 2008, 9:09 PM
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brutusofwyde wrote: 1. I don't establish routes to please you. If you want to clip bolts at eye level, standing on the ground, put up your own routes. 2. I only put in bolts that I consider necessary to do the route safely. Which brings up: "What ever happened to doing it the safe way so we can come back next day to climb." 3. Welcome to the world outside the gym. Newsflash: No amount of equipment or bolts can keep you safe. You are on your own out here. Your safety is up to you. If you feel that a route is unsafely bolted, DON'T CLIMB IT. It is your responsibility and your choice to do so or not. Out here, your skills, knowledge, abilities, and focus determine whether you survive or not. Better get used to it. 4. Some of my routes have the first bolt more than 120 feet off the ground. Some have no bolts at all. You figure it out. 5. Get a stick clip. 6. Top rope it. 7. Some of my routes require the use of a 12" cam. (at least for me to climb them safely). Either get one, get good enough to do it without it, or walk away. I aint gonna leave a 12" cam at the bottom for you. In short, no one is forcing you to climb these routes. Either accept the challenge as is, use a cheater stick, figure out some other way to stay safe on 'em, or climb something else and quit whining. Brutus
Bravo!!!
Cheers!
GO
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dingus
Jun 26, 2008, 9:15 PM
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brutusofwyde wrote: 1. I don't establish routes to please you. If you want to clip bolts at eye level, standing on the ground, put up your own routes. 2. I only put in bolts that I consider necessary to do the route safely. Which brings up: "What ever happened to doing it the safe way so we can come back next day to climb." 3. Welcome to the world outside the gym. Newsflash: No amount of equipment or bolts can keep you safe. You are on your own out here. Your safety is up to you. If you feel that a route is unsafely bolted, DON'T CLIMB IT. It is your responsibility and your choice to do so or not. Out here, your skills, knowledge, abilities, and focus determine whether you survive or not. Better get used to it. 4. Some of my routes have the first bolt more than 120 feet off the ground. Some have no bolts at all. You figure it out. 5. Get a stick clip. 6. Top rope it. 7. Some of my routes require the use of a 12" cam. (at least for me to climb them safely). Either get one, get good enough to do it without it, or walk away. I aint gonna leave a 12" cam at the bottom for you. In short, no one is forcing you to climb these routes. Either accept the challenge as is, use a cheater stick, figure out some other way to stay safe on 'em, or climb something else and quit whining. Brutus
I'd hitch my star to the Brutus Wagon Train any time.
DMT
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Myxomatosis
Jun 26, 2008, 9:17 PM
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If the clip is to high for ya,,,, just move onto another route. 
I got no prob's with high first clips on easy climbing. Eg a 5.12 but the first 10m's is 5.8....
What I really hate is crux moves off the ground...  now thats something worth bitchn about, but what can ya do?
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vterinme
Jun 26, 2008, 9:31 PM
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I'm on the fence, sure if having a higher bolt helps to keep the second clip from decking great.
On the other hand placing a bolt super high just cause you can do it comfortably, foolish. Someone maybe not now but 10 yrs down the line is going to add another bolt for safety. Why not bolt it the right way to begin with. I'm sick of running into all these situations where the FA was 13a climber putting up a 5.9+ runout bolted climb with r/x potential.
If you're going to bolt (mixed- trad is different), do it safely so that others can enjoy. There is nothing more shyt worthy than a person that ruins a cliff with crap bolting.
I must also add that nothing is worse than the jerks that flop a bolt on a trad climb. I suppose you don't have to clip it, but damn you people. You mar the rock.
To recap. I believe in double standards. Trad no bolts unless absolutely needed. Bolted areas, protect for all not just to inflate your ego.
Let the bolting ethics begin.............................
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crazy_fingers84
Jun 26, 2008, 9:34 PM
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sometimes the first bolt is really high to avoid people stick clipping it and taking a nasty swinging fall if the route does not start directly under the first bolt. . . bring a crash pad if it freaks you out.
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elholando
Jun 26, 2008, 9:39 PM
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What worse than that are the routes bolted from the top down, but they run out of bolts 20' from the bottom. Oops. The first bolt is 20' of the ground, but the 5th and 6th bolt are 3' apart. I think it's called the unitentional bolt ladder.
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unrooted
Jun 26, 2008, 9:52 PM
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I am glad to know that routes are solely the property of route developers and not the general climbing communities, this way I can feel good about not placing bolts in 2.1658 foot chimneys because I have 2.1658 foot lengths of 2.4's that I carry with me, so if you do not bring the exact length of 2x4 you better sack up!
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carbonrx8
Jun 26, 2008, 9:55 PM
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unrooted wrote: I am glad to know that routes are solely the property of route developers and not the general climbing communities, this way I can feel good about not placing bolts in 2.1658 foot chimneys because I have 2.1658 foot lengths of 2.4's that I carry with me, so if you do not bring the exact length of 2x4 you better sack up!
Wouldn't a 2.1658 2x4 just fall out of a 2.1658 foot chimney with the slightest touch? Or are you talking about a 2.1658 foot TALL chimney?
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the_climber
Jun 26, 2008, 9:58 PM
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bigwhitej wrote: Could someone please tell me what is the real reason that some route builders feel that they need to place the first bolt sometime 20ft off the ground. What is the logic behind running out bolts..... what ever happened to doing it the safe way so we come back the next day to climb. If your so mocho then no one is telling then that they have to clip a bolt......no one is forcing anyone to use the bolts.
Ha! Delusional! You though you were gettin' into a safe pastime?!
Delsuional misguided youth?
Gymrat maybe?
Suck it up and either climb up to the first bolt, or use a stick clip.... OMFG! not a stick clip, but that will be SOOOOOOOOOOOOO heavy to hike into that sport crag......... I mean it weighs as much as 2 whole ultra-light draws with the lastest spanky new shiney biners! OMFG!
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summerprophet
Jun 26, 2008, 10:06 PM
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vterinme wrote: On the other hand placing a bolt super high just cause you can do it comfortably, foolish.
Easy to complain about bolts being to sparse when you aren't the one shelling out the cash for the hardware.
How about you shut the hell up and just be appreciative of all the hard work being but in by others to provide you with recreation.
If you don't like it, don't climb it. I am sure there is more than one rockclimb at your area.
(This post was edited by summerprophet on Jun 26, 2008, 10:31 PM)
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vterinme
Jun 26, 2008, 10:29 PM
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That's total BS thinking. I know it cost money and ohh boy does it feel great to cut corners b/c that means you can cut more later on in your routing. Seriously if you're going to do something do it right the first time. If you're worried about the dough, don't do it. People need to stop f'ng up the rock so they can have their cheap heady route to brag about to their cheap gym climbing tag-a-longs.
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donald949
Jun 26, 2008, 10:32 PM
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Well, I have found the opposite to be true for me. I have climbed where the first clip is maybe 10 feet up and its like no protection at all by the time you're to the second bolt. I think why they put it that low? While 20 feet will get your attention, I find 15 feet to be about right for me, but have climbed higher. It nice to clip that first bolt though.
Also, I'll make a pitch for trad. Put your gear where you want too.
Lets move this thread to trad!
;Don
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summerprophet
Jun 26, 2008, 11:01 PM
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No my friend, the real BS thinking is when you think I am responsible for your safety.
Just because I establish a route, does not mean I am holding a gun to your head to climb it.
Specifically, you are responsible for yourself. A number of my routes are mixed, often requiring RP's, and there are no big signs for you at the bottom telling you what rack to bring.
If you arent sure of the route or your ability to climb it, there is no shame in toproping. OR give it a go, and stick out your neck a little bit and give it a go, you might find you like the exiliration.
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xtrmecat
Jun 26, 2008, 11:11 PM
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It is pretty simple to see where the experience is in this crowd. I see nothing wrong with 20 foot starts, Brutus seems to sum it up nicely, a little coarse but very honest. It is not his ego that makes the routes bold, but what the rock afforded him to put up.
It is not just him but others feel the need to keep us off the deck near the second clip, and running it out up there a ways, usually with clean falls, is just good sense if that is what the route dictates. Any asshole can put up a grid of bolts, it takes experience to know what can be done safely and what needs closer than a gym spacing to keep falls safe,(pendulums/ledgeing out/ankle breakers).
I agree that if it is too high for your first draw then you are out of your league, maybe you should climb at your lead limit instead of your ego's lead limit. Or maybe even just climb what you deem to be safe for you.
I enjoy a good R rated route at or below my limit from time to time. Nothing like it to check my head out. If it just isn't going to go for me then I can and have backed off, read downclimbed before I was going to pitch, and bail. No hard feelings to the routes author, just something I will probably need to revisit when the time comes.
Snake Dike on Half Dome comes to mind as if it had more "safety" in it just wouldn't be worth the hike and definitely wouldn't be the same climb. Other Yosemite R lines I have done were just as quality also. No one but you is making you climb this stuff, so if you do not enjoy it go do a climb that you enjoy, just do not complain that it is "too" anything. Just move along.
Bob
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shimanilami
Jun 26, 2008, 11:20 PM
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What if my rack includes a drill?
I've climbed stuff in Toulumne where I'm thinking, "Not putting a bolt here was pure arrogance. It may have been safe for Bachar, but for the rest of us it's plain dangerous." But because it "his" route, no one else can touch it. What gives?
I don't complain, but there is something contradictory about the "its MY route, don't touch it" attitude.
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