Absolutely I care where a particular piece of gear is made. All sorts of factors go into that consideraton.
For example, I don't mind buyiuung gear made in France, Italy or UK. I don't mind buying US or in a lot of cases Mexican made gear. I (gasp!!!) don't even mind buying CANADIAN (I know.... I know.... ) so long as it isn't made of gold like apparently that stuff from the dead bird company is.
I avoid China made gear but for softgoods that's bloody hard to do. Ditto India.
But I wouldn't knowingly buy hard goods from either of those countries, nor would I knowingly do business with a US firm that oursources formerly US provided labor to either country or anything similar.
For example if I found out BD or Omega Pacific, just to pick two random examples, had outsourced cam production to Bangladesh I'd pretty much stop doing business with them; entirely.
DMT
Arc'teryx is mostly made in china.
As is more and more gear.
Not that quality gear can't be made in China, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when companies that pride themselves on this and that sell out to bump up their profit a little.
They make more profit, we still pay the same or more for the product and quality normally takes a hit.
Considering the exorbitant pricing scheme Arc'teryx employs, it's a little disconcerting they make their wares in China. I've never figured what makes skeleton bird worth so much more than every other synonymous product; the profit certainly isn't supporting the wages of its workers.
A few years ago I bought a pair of their shorts on clearance. Still ridiculously expensive. But the best pair of shorts I ever put on - good design, fit well, good materials and construction. I think that's when they were still made in Canada. Well worth the money. And it's got that cool dead dinosaur bird logo. How can you beat that?
Make it in Canada?
Make it with a PTFTW logo instead of a dead dinosaur bird?
Um. In my professional experience, I don't think so.
In the sewn products business, you outsource because there's only one place (East Asia) that has lots of factories doing the work to the highest standards. Look, I guess most people haven't gotten the memo, but the batch manufactured sewn products business in the USA and Canada is more or less toast....
But that's because they'll do it for cheaper over there. We used to make fabric, and it was good quality. But in an attempt to keep up with the stuff from overseas quality was cut to lower price. Eventually we lost the competition and you just outsources it. At the root of the issue is as EA said, lower wages and non-existant labor laws and pollution standards.
Exactly, look at Madrock and how since they came about climbing gear quality has been slipping. Now everyone is shipping production overseas.
Um. In my professional experience, I don't think so.
In the sewn products business, you outsource because there's only one place (East Asia) that has lots of factories doing the work to the highest standards. Look, I guess most people haven't gotten the memo, but the batch manufactured sewn products business in the USA and Canada is more or less toast....
But that's because they'll do it for cheaper over there. We used to make fabric, and it was good quality. But in an attempt to keep up with the stuff from overseas quality was cut to lower price. Eventually we lost the competition and you just outsources it. At the root of the issue is as EA said, lower wages and non-existant labor laws and pollution standards.
Exactly, look at Madrock and how since they came about climbing gear quality has been slipping. Now everyone is shipping production overseas.
Sadly enough Madrock has found a lucrative niche: gym rats that won’t stick with climbing. Might as well get in for cheap. Then for the few that do it for a year or two, they’ll probably go back to REI for another set of ‘Rocks.
Where did you check; was it a book with a title like "English for Dummies"?
Ah thread drift....
Firefox recognizes it. I'd bet most modern dictionaries do too.
What do you care anyway? Is that the one thing you do care about?
If you aks me, it's funny how "irregardless" and "regardless" mean the exact same thing except one has an extra syllable. For all intense sand porpoises though, the point is mute.
Um. In my professional experience, I don't think so.
In the sewn products business, you outsource because there's only one place (East Asia) that has lots of factories doing the work to the highest standards. Look, I guess most people haven't gotten the memo, but the batch manufactured sewn products business in the USA and Canada is more or less toast....
But that's because they'll do it for cheaper over there. We used to make fabric, and it was good quality. But in an attempt to keep up with the stuff from overseas quality was cut to lower price. Eventually we lost the competition and you just outsources it. At the root of the issue is as EA said, lower wages and non-existant labor laws and pollution standards.
Exactly, look at Madrock and how since they came about climbing gear quality has been slipping. Now everyone is shipping production overseas.
Sadly enough Madrock has found a lucrative niche: gym rats that won’t stick with climbing. Might as well get in for cheap. Then for the few that do it for a year or two, they’ll probably go back to REI for another set of ‘Rocks.
Exactly, that's where most gear manufactures are going. How else can BD's new worthless ATC be explained.
REI has catered to beginners for years. Now they have slipped so much that in there big ass store in Bloomington you would be lucky to go in and put a full rack together. They have a crappy line of crappy shoes, some poorly designed harnesses a few ropes and a bunch of chalkbags.
Where did you check; was it a book with a title like "English for Dummies"?
Ah thread drift....
Firefox recognizes it. I'd bet most modern dictionaries do too.
What do you care anyway? Is that the one thing you do care about?
from dictionary.com, for what it's worth:
In reply to:
IRREGARDLESS is considered nonstandard because of the two negative elements ir- and -less. It was probably formed on the analogy of such words as irrespective, irrelevant, and irreparable. Those who use it, including on occasion educated speakers, may do so from a desire to add emphasis. IRREGARDLESS first appeared in the early 20th century and was perhaps popularized by its use in a comic radio program of the 1930s.
Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.
Can't. There aren't enough factories to support it. Consumers don't care all that much push come to shove and companies that do care don't often aren't large enough to sustain the industry over here.
What's more interesting about the blog is generally the comments. People in Canada suffer from this delusion that everybody else has to fix the problem; the government, the retailers, the industry. While I won't remove individual companies of their own responsibilities, MEC included, when are people going to grow up and realize that this is the product of our consumerist lifestyle?
Millions upon millions of people created or abided by this dynamic and despite that many people seem to envision China as the barren, unsustainable surface of Mars on which 96% of the population marches, half-starved, in shackles to their doom while the other 4% lords over them with machine guns ready to fire, we really do dick all to help.
That said, that's not what China looks like. There are a lot of issues with that country, severe issues violating what we deem to be human rights and environmental issues as well, but it is an industrialized nation and I feel like some people need to get over this image of toddlers chained to sewing machines for every bloody product made there.
It's not a straight forward, black and white issue.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Jul 10, 2008, 4:59 PM)
i'm sorry but this is the only discussion in this thread i am interested in. i think it proves that quality can slip even in things made by good old fashioned lazy-ass americans. you don't have to outsource something to have it suck. you just have to lower your standards and not care about whether it sucks or not.
i'm sorry but this is the only discussion in this thread i am interested in. i think it proves that quality can slip even in things made by good old fashioned lazy-ass americans. you don't have to outsource something to have it suck. you just have to lower your standards and not care about whether it sucks or not.
While I won't intentionally use the word, I think the 'ir' adds a phonetic value that is worth consideration.
Ah, the link I was initially looking for: also from the MEC site, so naturally it can't be entirely without bias.
Harvey Chan wrote:
Made in Canada - As Long As I Don't Have to Make It
It's ironic. We want our apparel made in Canada but we don't want to be the ones making it. So it appears in Vancouver at least.
Four of our six contract factories in Vancouver are looking for sewers. Some have even posted "sewer wanted" placards on their front doors. Factories are having a hard time finding workers because the work is tough, repetitive and at minimum wage. It's also sporadic meaning periods of no work (and no pay) or too much work (long hours) for minimum wage plus overtime. With this in mind, it's easy to figure out why the Asian immigrant women who fill these ranks have fled to more stable and less assembly-line rigid occupations in the local labour market.
Factories running short on workers have significant financial implications for MEC. Namely goods not delivered on time translate to lost sales. Here's how it works. Some products are season specific like winter wear. The best selling period for this merchandise is just before the temperature drops (sometime in the fall) and a few weeks before it warms (in advance of spring). If MEC can't get product on the retail floor during this period, it'll miss the market demand. MEC will frustrate customers who will eventually shop elsewhere. To compound matters, the goods will gradually arrive but will likely be out of synch with the selling season. Hence, MEC will be stuck with too much winter merchandise that will need to be either discounted or "inventoried" for next year. Given that MEC has strict policies on marking down prices, the winter gear will likely be stored until next year. Merchandise packed away in the back of the stores or at our warehouse is underperforming capital. It's money not earning money and it's expensive when we're dealing with millions of dollars locked in inventory that can't be sold.
Our strongest factory in Vancouver making world class products just informed us that it will be four weeks late with its delivery because many of its workers quit. Delivering on time is important. It's as important as quality and price. When any of these variables are compromised, retailers begin to search for options including sourcing off shore.
It appears Canadians want to buy clothes that are made in Canada but they don't want to be the ones making them. The workers who make these clothes, Asian immigrant women, are finding more attractive occupations and are leaving behind their sewing jobs.
Personally, I like my clothes to be made in Canada but at the same time I'm torn because the work behind making this stuff is hard, repetitive and poorly paid. It's an occupational ghetto that only attracts Asian immigrant women. If I can live with this inequity then I'll have no hesitation in buying locally made clothing. For those who vigorously demand "Made in Canada", can you?
An interesting analogy / point: all the men in my family are laborers. They are lobstermen, electricians, and carpenters. All of them enjoy their work and have always been happy to pass on their skills to me. However, none of them wanted me to grow up in their shoes. I wanted to become a carpenter when I was younger because I enjoyed pounding nails, etc. I was very likely influenced by watching the men in my family get up and go to work. There was something admirable in what they were doing, and thus I wanted to be like them. My father, upon hearing this, set out to convince me that there were better opportunities in life. His argumetn was that their lives wre good lives, but also hard ones that they'd rather their children not be required to take on.
John Adams measured progress in much the same way: I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music.
Economic progress goes as such: agriculture to industry to service to management to investment to competition, with competition being the point where the quality of life is relatively the same everywhere regardless of nationality. What John Adams was saying is that he does the hard work so that future generations can become more enlightened. Enlightenment leads to better lives.
It is my opinion that better lives deserve to be lived everywhere. We may not be in a position to happily state that work conditions are the same in the developing world as they are in the developed world today, but we are in a position to state that work conditions are better in the developing world today than they were yesterday, and will continue to improve en masse over the years as we generally improve our lives overall. This is less about current comparability (though it certainly adds and improves the debate), but more about progress instead.
[Origin: 1910–15; ir-2 (prob. after irrespective) + regardless]
—Usage note Irregardless is considered nonstandard because of the two negative elements ir- and -less. It was probably formed on the analogy of such words as irrespective, irrelevant, and irreparable. Those who use it, including on occasion educated speakers, may do so from a desire to add emphasis. Irregardless first appeared in the early 20th century and was perhaps popularized by its use in a comic radio program of the 1930s.
I love this quote. It is the biggest piece of b.s. This is the same diarrhea that comes out of GW's mouth.
In reply to:
...the work behind making this stuff is hard, repetitive and poorly paid.
In America, you can get any job done if you pay the right price. My job is hard and repetitive, and if it was poorly paid, nobody in America would want to do it either. Irregardless, we still find plenty of actuaries, garbage man, and janitors. You just have to pay the right price.
you need more workers? obviously you have to then pay more.
Sorry Capt Obvious, but that's wrong. Here's the key sentence:
The workers who make these clothes, Asian immigrant women, are finding more attractive occupations and are leaving behind their sewing jobs.
Look, no offense, but there AREN'T enough people in North America who are willing to do this work for pretty much ANY price who CAN do it...Garment shops here in NYC pay around $25 an hour plus benefits and they can't find enough workers -- that's about $50k a year. The Garment Workers Union is dying out. Even if you could afford to pay $50 an hour, you couldn't find enough skilled workers...maybe if we had free immigration but not otherwise.
Nobody who works behind a sewing machine wants their kids to do it. It's hard, monotonous work where a slight distraction or loss of concentration results in damaged goods. It takes five to six years of work to become decent. Every single machine operator I've ever talked to wanted their kids to go to school for those five to six years and get a "better" job. This includes folks I know here in NYC making over $100k a year sewing ...
you need more workers? obviously you have to then pay more.
more $ for labor? more money for the output.
we'd all do our part if we paid more for products made at home.
captain obvious to the rescue!
The major point of the article is that North Americans aren't willing to work on an assembly line and we don't have the labour pool skilled at sewing to produce quality products.
American Apparel seems to be the exception. The average wage for a sewer there is about $25,000/year plus benefits. Would you quit your job to work there?
I think the only way you'll see more production in North America is if robots replace labour.
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