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GeneralBenson
Aug 12, 2008, 9:08 PM
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For once in the history of RC.com, a noob has asked a question, and has gotten a solid string of excellent answers. Brothers and sisters, clearly the world is ending. But seriously, good stuff here. The only thing I have left to ad, is that all of these good answers are all part of plan B to me. Plan A is always to stay in sight, stay in earshot, stay in communication. I won't lead out of communication unless I really think it's worth it; and usually, it's not.
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shimanilami
Aug 12, 2008, 9:09 PM
Post #27 of 54
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majid_sabet wrote: As a belayer, you are in charge of his rope so it is your job to organize the feed line.
That sounds good in theory, but if I'm leading I'm going to be sure that the rope is properly flaked. After all, it's not the belayer who's going to get short-roped and screwed.
As for the tug system, one should never leave the ground without a back-up system. I review mine with my partner of 8 years each time we go on a multi-pitch climb. For a new partner, I might even practice it before I leave the ground. Better to work the kinks out on terra firma, know what I mean?
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rgold
Aug 12, 2008, 9:11 PM
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As a bumbler who is still bumbling after fifty years, my suggestion is to bumble on---intelligently. Make sure you learn something from each screw up.
I climb almost exclusively with double ropes. If leads are not being alternated, my experience is the ropes should be restacked. Flipping the pile is worse.
As has been said several times now, whatever the stacking method, the belayer has to keep ahead of the game by maintaining a big loop of unencumbered rope ready to feed.
When there is no ledge, stacking rope on the tie-in is standard practice, but I have to admit I've never been really successful with it. The idea that loops need to start big and get smaller works in theory, but I've found it hard to implement in practice while belaying. When you don't get the loops in size order, a long one can lift up behind shorter ones and often this triggers a bad tangle.
Sometimes, forming big loops, flipping in a slip knot after each loop, and clipping it to a biner on the anchor works better for me.
Another thing that I sometimes do for shorter leads is pull up and flake the free slack on a sling or with clipped loops as mentioned above, and then flake the rope that comes up through the belay on the anchor sling. Two smaller piles are less tangle-prone than one big one.
On my last trip to Red Rock, being particularly concerned about multipitch rope management on the featured rock, I tried carrying Metolius Rope Hooks. Definitely gimmicky, and something extra to carry, but they turned out to be the best way I've found to keep your ropes stacked and ready for the belay. Unlike when stacking over the tie-in or slings, you simply lift the loops off the hook as needed. You can put the loops on as coils rather than alternating sides as you must over the tie in. The ability to lift the active rope off the hook eliminates the need to stack from longer to shorter loops and banishes tangling completely.
If all precautions fail, you get a tangle, and the leader manages to stop somewhere (as they ultimately will have to if the tangle is bad enough), then you should know how to tie off the belay (first step of the now popular belay-escape techniques) so that you can work on the tangle with both hands. Speed and effectiveness matters here.
As for communicating signals, I use a combination of the methods described by others with perhaps an extra twist. First, of course, the leader shouts off belay. Sometimes one can be clever about shouting, since sound bounces off of surfaces. It may help to shout at a wall on either side, for example, rather than straight down. I might add that in crowded climbing locales, the off belay needs to be followed by the second's name!
If the leader doesn't get a clear response, then the three solid tugs. If the leader doesn't get a clear three-tug response, then the leader tries to pull in all the slack as fast as humanly possible. This is very annoying to the second, who will not be able to keep up, but it is the second pre-arranged signal that the belay is off. (Because of this, I am careful not to walk fast across a ledge on or at the top of a pitch; I don't want to simulate this signal while still climbing.) What typically happens in this situation is the second, cursing and fuming, manages to disengage the belay before all the rope has been taken up, and the speed with which the rest goes up is further confirmation that the belay is really off. Once all the slack is up and the leader can pull no more, three or four feet is immediately paid back out. This signals the second not to start climbing immediately, the leader is now threading the the belay device. When that three or four feet is taken back up (naturally, at a more stately pace), the second can feel pretty confident that they are really on belay. The final test, of course, is that the rope keeps going up after they start climbing.
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evanwish
Aug 12, 2008, 9:48 PM
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as far as rope tug signals;
i don't like them..
if the pitch you're on is lets say 140 feet, you get up to the top, anchor, clip your belay device, and you pull up through the device as your partner (the second) feeds you rope through his, then when he has no more rope he knows he has to climb.
this is just as easy as any other system if you belay streight off the masterpoint with a device like the Reverso, Guide, or Grigri..
PS: just give enough slack for your second to unclip from his belay device..
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chossmonkey
Aug 12, 2008, 10:16 PM
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When the rope goes tight you are on belay. The pulling the rope three times doesn't work very well, especially if there was rope drag or it is a really long pitch.
If you wouldn't have fucked with the rope laying on the ledge it would have been fine.
Hold the phone. Your partner leads all the pitches and you bitch about how he does things?
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billl7
Aug 12, 2008, 10:46 PM
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One more opinion here about tugs:
* I agree with what was said previously about the second not normally giving any tugs at all.
* The leader has only two tug signals: i) 5 long tugs means you (the second) are on belay; ii) 2 long tugs means give the leader some slack.
* If tugs aren't working, all the slack has been taken up, and some amount of time has passed then the second assumes the leader has them on belay.
* when the leader makes the anchor and pulls up all the slack, he doesn't fuck around in getting on belay duty; he does it right away so the second has little chance of assuming the belay is on but being wrong.
Bill
(This post was edited by billl7 on Aug 12, 2008, 10:50 PM)
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potreroed
Aug 12, 2008, 11:00 PM
Post #32 of 54
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Radios rule for multi-pitch climbing but are not completely fool-proof. A tug system as a back-up is always a good idea.
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sspssp
Aug 12, 2008, 11:27 PM
Post #33 of 54
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GeneralBenson wrote: Plan A is always to stay in sight, stay in earshot, stay in communication. I won't lead out of communication unless I really think it's worth it; and usually, it's not.
Really? What type of multi-pitch do you usually climb? Seems on a good number of mulit-pitch climbs, at some point you go around a corner, pull a roof, or go around an arrete and you can be out of sight within 50 feet of the belay. And on windy days that might also be out of ear shot.
The OP was asking about Tuolumne. Most of the popluar routes have bolted belays. Be rather a drag to stop up short just because it is windy (which it usually is in the afternoon).
(This post was edited by sspssp on Aug 12, 2008, 11:30 PM)
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zan
Aug 13, 2008, 2:45 AM
Post #36 of 54
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Oy, a night hanging in slings. I can't wait
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zan
Aug 13, 2008, 2:50 AM
Post #37 of 54
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In reply to: But I think what I'm hearing from you is that you really want to establish a set of consistent rules / communication that will make your team that much more efficient.
Thanks for saying it better than I did. You're right, mostly I just want us to work better as a team so that we can both stay safe and have a lot of fun. Also, at the moment we're pretty slow so anything I can do to keep us moving is a good thing. As a second I can't set the anchors but I do want to be able to belay well, follow and clean quickly and generally make myself as helpful as possible until I work up the nerve to lead.
In reply to: f your partner doesn't seem to be willing to be on the same page, then either get him there, or find a new one. I'm always willing to give people a chance, but if we don't click, then in my mind we are putting ourselves potentially at risk.
He's definitely willing to listen. We talked about it and I think that we're very near to being on the same page, maybe even within paragraphs of each other. We're getting there, slowly but surely. I suppose it just takes time to really learn how to work well together.
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troutboy
Aug 13, 2008, 12:37 PM
Post #38 of 54
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rgold wrote: On my last trip to Red Rock, being particularly concerned about multipitch rope management on the featured rock, I tried carrying Metolius Rope Hooks. Definitely gimmicky, and something extra to carry, but they turned out to be the best way I've found to keep your ropes stacked and ready for the belay.
I climbed with a new partner last weekend and she had just bought one of these. I have always used the tie in or a spare sling to stack and was skeptical that little loop could hold a 60 meter rope. But I must say the device worked quite well and really did make paying out rope much easier than with other methods because of the loop stacking ability, as Rich mentioned, and because it is stiff, unlike a supple nylon sling, that helps the process of paying out rope.
Since I do not use chalk, I just stuffed the thing in my chalk bag when not at belays.
TS
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coolcat83
Aug 13, 2008, 12:58 PM
Post #39 of 54
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zan wrote: I spent what felt like forever trying to untangle the freaking things with only one hand.
learn to tie off the belay, take a self rescue course.
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coolcat83
Aug 13, 2008, 12:59 PM
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troutboy wrote: Since I do not use chalk, I just stuffed the thing in my chalk bag when not at belays. TS
should i even ask why you have a chalkbag if you do not use chalk?
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Gmburns2000
Aug 13, 2008, 1:36 PM
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rgold wrote: As for communicating signals, I use a combination of the methods described by others with perhaps an extra twist. First, of course, the leader shouts off belay.
I actually had a somewhat humorous experience that told me that this doesn't always work as planned. I was at the Gunks and my partner and I had discussed to try shouting first, and if there was no response then to use rope signals. Well, he was leading and was safely on his next anchor. He shouted "Off Belay," I heard him, and obviously took him off. However, due to communication problems from earlier in the day, he yelled, and about 5 seconds later did our standard two huge pulls as a signal for off belay. In that five seconds I managed to take the belay device off my biner, but not take the rope out of the device. Just as I was about to take the rope out, ZOOOM!!!! up went my device about five feet in the air...twice. Imagine a cat chasing a toy on a string that is being pulled away from it - that was me.
Now, when there's any doubt, we do the rope signal first followed by a shout. 
In reply to: I might add that in crowded climbing locales, the off belay needs to be followed by the second's name!
This is definitely key (especially at the Gunks where the OP had the initial concerns). I'd add one more thing, when the leader hears or understands that the second has taken the belay off, the leader should yell something like "thank you." This isn't to be polite, but more as a confirmation that you did, in fact, hear and understand each other.
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curtis_g
Aug 13, 2008, 2:01 PM
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coolcat83 wrote: troutboy wrote: Since I do not use chalk, I just stuffed the thing in my chalk bag when not at belays. TS should i even ask why you have a chalkbag if you do not use chalk?
my thoughts exactly. that and, "why would someone not use chalk?"
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joeforte
Aug 13, 2008, 2:13 PM
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troutboy wrote: Since I do not use chalk, I just stuffed the thing in my chalk bag when not at belays. TS
I can understand why someone would not use chalk, but I cannot understand why they would still carry a chalkbag!
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troutboy
Aug 13, 2008, 2:44 PM
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joeforte wrote: troutboy wrote: Since I do not use chalk, I just stuffed the thing in my chalk bag when not at belays. TS I can understand why someone would not use chalk, but I cannot understand why they would still carry a chalkbag!
Apparently, inquiring minds want to know...
Several reasons. Mostly, it is a great mini bag. Everything from a small snack to the trashed rap slings I just cut down (or, in this case, the rope hook), all secured and out of the way.
TS
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mtselman
Aug 13, 2008, 2:56 PM
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joeforte wrote: troutboy wrote: Since I do not use chalk, I just stuffed the thing in my chalk bag when not at belays. TS I can understand why someone would not use chalk, but I cannot understand why they would still carry a chalkbag! 
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time2clmb
Aug 13, 2008, 3:06 PM
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In reply to: "sometimes that happens" and that there was no way I could have expected him to flake the rope better.
Well, it doesn't sound like your partner wants to learn from mistakes. IF he keeps up this attitude you would be better off finding some one else to climb with.
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crimpandgo
Aug 13, 2008, 3:13 PM
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GeneralBenson wrote: For once in the history of RC.com, a noob has asked a question, and has gotten a solid string of excellent answers. Brothers and sisters, clearly the world is ending. But seriously, good stuff here. The only thing I have left to ad, is that all of these good answers are all part of plan B to me. Plan A is always to stay in sight, stay in earshot, stay in communication. I won't lead out of communication unless I really think it's worth it; and usually, it's not.
That is a personal choices. there are many methods of communication that make "out of sight" climbing safe. And frankly, you dont always have a choice.
I was climbing at the Monk on Camelback (arizona) one day during the week. my leader proceeded up. we didn't think anything about communication besides talking because its not normally a problem. However, on this day a rescue of another climber was going on.. and before we knew it a news helicoptor was hovering about 100ft above the climb.. Couldn't hear a thing. I never took the leader off belay... and when the rope went tight I starting climbing.
What is my point. You may not be able to "choose" your climbing environment.. always be prepared for the unexpected.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 20, 2008, 2:49 AM
Post #48 of 54
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GeneralBenson wrote: For once in the history of RC.com, a noob has asked a question, and has gotten a solid string of excellent answers. Brothers and sisters, clearly the world is ending. But seriously, good stuff here. The only thing I have left to ad, is that all of these good answers are all part of plan B to me. Plan A is always to stay in sight, stay in earshot, stay in communication. I won't lead out of communication unless I really think it's worth it; and usually, it's not.
You must do a lot of 5 or 6 pitch climbs in the Gunks then
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jakedatc
Aug 20, 2008, 3:47 AM
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he heee.. "i did 15 pitches today!".... but only 4 routes ;)
at the gunks i'm starting to believe more and more in radios.. I just need to figure out the nice small ones that mr Epoch has that clip perfectly to the front of my gear sling.
it's tricky.. at the gunks even the easy stuff you wouldn't think would have issues with roofs etc do because they traverse around them.. sometimes very large roofs that make it very hard to hear.
I agree with the calling the name.. i usually do name... gets their attention.. then off belay.. on belay.. whatever. Gunks have alot of people who are all listening for the same things.. sometimes it does take a message system to get to the belayer. best one so far... "Mark!.. Kathy on Maria is off belay" passed down on an adjacent route on a windy day hehe.
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GeneralBenson
Aug 20, 2008, 4:21 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: GeneralBenson wrote: For once in the history of RC.com, a noob has asked a question, and has gotten a solid string of excellent answers. Brothers and sisters, clearly the world is ending. But seriously, good stuff here. The only thing I have left to ad, is that all of these good answers are all part of plan B to me. Plan A is always to stay in sight, stay in earshot, stay in communication. I won't lead out of communication unless I really think it's worth it; and usually, it's not. You must do a lot of 5 or 6 pitch climbs in the Gunks then
No way. You run into communication problems if you only do 5-6 pitches at the gunks. Ok, so maybe I overstated my point a litle bit. What I mean, is that communication is high on my list of thing worth preserving. Obviously if the route dictates losing it, than that's what you do. But I'm not a fan of running monster pitches, just because you can, only to end up with unnecessary communication problems. But maybe if I start doing loneger pitches, I can stop bringing my portaledge to the gunks...
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