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Durin


Sep 26, 2008, 3:41 PM
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All-day routes: pack weight is horrible
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I've been climbing for about a year now, mostly indoors, but as of late I've started going to Yosemite a lot. I've done Snake Dike and Royal Arches, but last weekend I tried East Buttress of Middle Cathedral Rock and I found we were carrying too much stuff.

For two people:
6 liters of water
enough food for a day
2 fleece jackets
2 pairs of approach shoes

The leader obviously starts with most of the rack and shouldn't carry nearly as much as the second, but still, 6 liters = 12 pounds of water, so I carried 3 liters while leading. We had a couple other little items like headlamps, knife, emergency blanket, a couple other little essentials. The forecast was perfectly sunny so we didn't bring any sort of rain jacket or windbreaker, though I do have very compact ones.

It just seems to me that to be reasonably safe/prepared for an all-day route like east buttress of middle cathedral, or a harder one like steck salathe, each person needs approach shoes for the descent and a warm fleece jacket, but together with the food and water it's too heavy and bulky. Snake Dike and Royal Arches had such easy climbing that we just muscled through it with packs. Now that I'm getting into more technical climbs it just doesn't seem feasible.

Any suggestions? My climbing partner and I both have LaSportiva Exum Ridge approach shoes and Columbia fleece jackets. Are there lighter and less cumbersome alternatives?


(This post was edited by Durin on Sep 26, 2008, 3:43 PM)


GeneralBenson


Sep 26, 2008, 3:51 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Leave the rack? But seriously. I find that 3 liters of water in nalgenes feels like hell, but a full 3 liter camelback up tight against your back is barely noticeable. Have you considered that maybe you pack sucks. You'd be way better off with a small pack for each person. YOu can still have like leader pack/follower pack. But each person carries their own water, snacks and essentials. Besides, what good are things like headlamps, layers and food if they're in your seconds pack when you need them. Get a small pack, and a medium pack. Both people have water, food, rain jacket, headlamp. Second take things like shoes and fleeces. And fwiw, you can definitely get lighter/warmer fleeces than columbia; and a lightweight fleece/windbreaker combo would probably be warmer than just a midweight fleece; especially if it's windy.


shimanilami


Sep 26, 2008, 4:49 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Durin wrote:
Are there lighter and less cumbersome alternatives?

The Marmot Original Wind Shirt is the single, best piece of clothing I have ever owned. Get one.


sungam


Sep 26, 2008, 4:50 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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The only way you could go much lighter then that is maybe taking walshes and a pertex top instead of the fleece, but still, you got what you gotta carry, though 2l each might do.


climbingaggie03


Sep 26, 2008, 4:54 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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To lighten/shrink this load here's what I'd do:

cut back on water and food if possible, don't be irresponsible, but if you're not a little hungry and thirsty by the time you get to the car, you're carrying too much food/water. Try to eat and drink as much as you can before you head up.

Check out some of the synthetic insulation jackets to cut weight and bulk, I love my mont-bell thermawrap parka, but also the mountain hardwear compressor is good.

I like sandals, more of a preference, but they are less bulky than shoes, Chaco makes great sandals with stealth rubber.

If you can't get your loads into a size weight your happy with, you could look into getting something like the Fish Atom smasher, or the cilo gear wally pack, that you could hand haul.


dingus


Sep 26, 2008, 5:09 PM
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Re: [climbingaggie03] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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OK, I've done that very route 15 or more times. Here is how I would approach this...

On moderate but longer routes each climber carries her own shit. That's the starting point. You'd be amazed what you can get rid of when YOU have to carry it all the time.

I would take 1 liter of water unless it was Military Hot, in which case I'd go to the Meadows, haha. I might take a 2nd bottle and drink it on the approach and at the base.

I would take a pack, either a small bullet pack or a fanny pack. For food? Apple, maybe a small single serving can of pineapple, that's about it.

I'd take a headlamp and a knife and of course we'd each have a lighter. Wind shirt or jacket if appropriate - that can go in the pack or wrap around the waist as needed. If its made right you can wrap it around your waist and use it as your fanny pack. But whatever.

Shoes I often just clip to the back of the harness, depending. Flip flops, sometimes just wear the shoes for the descent.

But we climb quickly (relatively speaking) and would expect to be up and off that route in about 6 hours tops, unless a big lineheld us up. I would tend to take just a *tad* mroe food and water if getting knighted was a distinct possibility. The farther away from the road the more tempted (in that possible benighted scenario) I'd be to have a space blanket along (one to share).

We use the 'drop and dragh' method for moderate chimneys, etc. where you prerig a sling on the pack connected to your harness with sufficient length to let the pack hang about a foot below your heels. You get to a tight spot just unbuckle it, drop and drag it up below you as you go.

That's my approach. I hate toting my partner's heavy bullshit. It also puts YOUR gear at YOUR fingertips when you need it. And you end up toting MUCH LESS WEIGHT too.

Not everyone likes this style.

DMT


hafilax


Sep 26, 2008, 5:13 PM
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Re: [GeneralBenson] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Did you drink all of that water? Prehydrate and don't carry so much. Can you find water on the descent?

For 11 pitches I would drink a litre before hand and carry a litre. I'd bring a gel and something for the stomach at the top. For a jacket I carry a nylon windbreaker if it's warm or a softshell if it's cooler. I clip my shoes, a stuffsack with everything in it and water bottle to my harness. I find packs annoying. We carry all our personal stuff since it's efficient to eat and drink while belaying the second and your jacket does you know good in the second's pack. That is unless the pitch is at the very limit which is rare on multipitch.

One way to carry less is to go faster and you can go faster if you carry less.


ryanb


Sep 26, 2008, 5:32 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Your inexperince means you need all that stuff in case the route takes you all day. Build up your confidence in your ability to keep up a good pace on at-your-limit climbing by doing short (1-4 pitches) multi pitches and things with easy retreats. Its key that these be harder then the long routes you wish to try...to minimize food and water weight you need to know you can lead and follow the pitches on long stuff quickly (max of an hour a pitch for both climbers even if it means resorting to french free) and aren't going to get bogged down and take all day trying to figure out the moves or work up the courage. Get your belay changeovers dialed too.


Unless it is very hot or cold shoot for something like a single 2+ liter camel back (or SMALL pack) carried by the 2nd with a few energy bars in it. Get an early (pre-dawn) start to avoid heat and be the first one on route so you don't need to wait for other parties. Clip your approach shoes to your harness. Consider if doing without or using flip flops is reasonable. Often it isn't and there isn't a hugely lighter alternative to approach shoes that i know of. Hydrate and eat well the night before and morning of and consider leaving a pack with extra food and water cached in a tree (varmots) at the base if there is a long hike in and out.

Clothing wise most fleeces suck. Would a long underwear top or two offer enough warmth? how about a long underwear top + compact shell to block the wind?
I do like tight fitting fleece hoody with thumb holes as they reduce the need for gloves or a hat:
http://www.mec.ca/...;bmUID=1222473220822
http://www.patagonia.com/...or=40071-746&ws=


If the weather, the length or the difficulty of the route convince you you need more then a small pack carried by the second either wait for better conditions or more fitness/confidence or make sure the route is easy enough to muscle through while carrying big packs. If neither is possible you are going to have to haul, have the second jug the hard pitches with a bigger pack or pre-cache food and water.


hafilax


Sep 26, 2008, 5:35 PM
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Re: [dingus] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
[snip]
But we climb quickly (relatively speaking) and would expect to be up and off that route in about 6 hours tops, unless a big lineheld us up. I would tend to take just a *tad* mroe food and water if getting knighted was a distinct possibility. The farther away from the road the more tempted (in that possible benighted scenario) I'd be to have a space blanket along (one to share).
[/snip]
I agree sir DMT. I guess if it were to happen anywhere Middle Cathedral would make the most sense.


salamanizer


Sep 26, 2008, 5:55 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Durin wrote:
I've been climbing for about a year now, mostly indoors, but as of late I've started going to Yosemite a lot. I've done Snake Dike and Royal Arches, but last weekend I tried East Buttress of Middle Cathedral Rock and I found we were carrying too much stuff.

For two people:
6 liters of water
enough food for a day
2 fleece jackets
2 pairs of approach shoes

The leader obviously starts with most of the rack and shouldn't carry nearly as much as the second, but still, 6 liters = 12 pounds of water, so I carried 3 liters while leading. We had a couple other little items like headlamps, knife, emergency blanket, a couple other little essentials. The forecast was perfectly sunny so we didn't bring any sort of rain jacket or windbreaker, though I do have very compact ones.

It just seems to me that to be reasonably safe/prepared for an all-day route like east buttress of middle cathedral, or a harder one like steck salathe, each person needs approach shoes for the descent and a warm fleece jacket, but together with the food and water it's too heavy and bulky. Snake Dike and Royal Arches had such easy climbing that we just muscled through it with packs. Now that I'm getting into more technical climbs it just doesn't seem feasible.

Any suggestions? My climbing partner and I both have LaSportiva Exum Ridge approach shoes and Columbia fleece jackets. Are there lighter and less cumbersome alternatives?


I think the problem lies within your abilitys. These routes may be a little over your head.

What I mean is. Yes, you're physically able to climb them, but not efficiently. You're skills arn't up to par, so you must suffer under a big load and long belays. You need to climb quicker. By doing so you won't need as much stuff, which will allow you to climb even faster. I know, easier said than done.

But there are some things you can do to climb faster. Like learning to safely and efficiently simul through easy sections.

Re-rack as you clean on a sling so you're nearly ready to go when you reach the belay.

Know which pitches you can run together and which ones you can't, and be willing to be flexible on the go. Just because it's not an "established" belay doesn't mean It can't become one for you.

Learn to be more efficient with your gear. Do you really need to place pro every 10ft on a 5.5 section... maybe? Do you need to sew up a perfect locker 5.9 hand crack? Things to consider.

3L of water for a day? You should be carrying no more than 32oz each for a route like E.B. Middle. Bring water and stash it at the base if you must but don't take it with you. Learn from those who have come before you. Al Steck and Salathe spent days on the Steck/Salathe with out watter and they lived. So can you.

Enough food for a day? How much is that?
A small package of gummy worms or something similar should suffice. Eat, Drink and be merry before and after the climb. Not during.

Two jackets.
Good call. Being prepared is important. However, why fleece? Why not a mid weight under layer (like Capaline from Patagucci sp?) and a ultra thin wind shirt. The smaller the better. It's a judgment call though. You won't always need insulation while sometimes you'll need alot.

Clip your approach shoes to the haul loop of your harness W/ a locker. If your harness doesn't have one, you have a sport weenie harness. Get a new one.

Dump the rest of your stuff besides a head lamp each. You absolutely do not need anything else.

When you're on a route like Steck/Salathe. Do not bring a backpack. Clip your shoes to your harness. Clip a water bottle to your harness and a cliff bar in your pocket. Put all your gear on a gear sling so you can move it from one side to the other quickly while in mid pitch. Rack very few things, nuts, nut tool some slings etc on your harness and only on your front gear loops. Try to rack them on the side you think will be facing out. You don't want that crap getting in the way.

....oh, and leave the helmets in the car on the wide.


lithiummetalman


Sep 26, 2008, 6:35 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Smaller pack or none at all.

For long all day use 1 or 2 packs btw the two of us depending on the season.

Contents in say Black diamond Bbee for cooler conditions

Nylon cycling windbreaker (the mountain bike versions seem to be very tough, breathe well and light)
midweight - heavyweight capilene longsleeve shirt (lighter and less bulkier than fleece)
Note: if it's really cold I'll pack a belay jacket and booties.
beanie
1-2 liters of water for both partners
purification tablets, knife, firestarter, tiny first aid kit, & bandanna (space blanket depending on the trip

For Arches (or moving quickly in general) we skip the pack, tiedthe jackets around our waist, wear a few thin.mid lairs (easier to regulate, strip and stow), attach 1L bottle to our harnesses, bandanna and beanie in my cargo pockets with the knife and lighter.

Shoes wise, have found that using water moccasins instead of clunkier approach shoes are not only lighter, but also lower in profile when carried; plus find that they can be warm and have excellent traction on the rock.

Hope this helps

Cheers

*Forgot to mention I always bring a few munchies!!! I like to eat!


(This post was edited by lithiummetalman on Sep 26, 2008, 6:57 PM)


summerprophet


Sep 26, 2008, 7:25 PM
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After struggling liker you did for years, I learned to lead with a pack.

Commit your partner to each carrying your own shit, and tell them this is the rack you need, if they want to add to it, they carry the extra.

For East Butt of Middle, I took 3 litres (I drink a LOT..... had heatstroke on that route before), 2 clif bars, a gel, long sleeve T, headlamp and a wind jacket. If you carry a selection of tied slings as part of your rack, it is unlikely you will ever need a knife.

Fleece is really bulky, as are water bottles.

ALSO, don't be scared off by the captain, I was skipped jumping on EB of El Cap for years, only to find it really wasn't that much harder than EB of Mid. (Although you really want water for that one...... it is a desert)


iamthewallress


Sep 26, 2008, 7:33 PM
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Tie a windbreaker around your waist. If you're super worried about weather or benighting and won't feel comfortable unless you're super prepared, get a tiny OR mylar bivy bag and dangly it off your harness.

Put your goodies in your shoes. Eat compact goodies that fit well in shoes. Bars, goo, cliff blocks, nuts, dry fruit, etc.

Bring 1L on route, and chug another on the approach if need be. Drink until it hurts before you leave the car and when you get back, and I promise you won't die. Bring practically weightless iodine tabs for stuff like Half Dome or if you're worried about the Royal Arches spring or if you think you'll have a mega-epic near water where you'll be passing a stream. Some of the stuff will get you drinkable H20 in 2 hours.

Don't bring a rack so large that you have 1 of each of everything 'just in case' at the end of the pitch.


Senate156


Sep 26, 2008, 7:56 PM
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rather than trying to drastically change your load, why don't you start training with weights strapped on you at the gym. My gym will let me climb with a back pack on and inside it have two 12 lb sandbags. Actually that type of training has a lot of benefits other than just for multi-pitchers.


iamthewallress


Sep 27, 2008, 7:15 PM
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Re: [summerprophet] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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summerprophet wrote:
If you carry a selection of tied slings as part of your rack, it is unlikely you will ever need a knife.

Except when the hanging rap station is so crammed with white rotten sling that you can't get your freshies in there, and although you don't wish to trust your life to the existing crap, it's not yeilding to the force of your bare hands.

And, except when the end of the rope gets wedged behind a flake as you rap off and cutting the snag is the only way to have any length of rope w/ which to procede.

And, except when your hair or clothing gets sucked into your belay device, and you can't unweight it in order to free yourself.

Etc.

You can get a 0.5 oz knife in Cathey's Valley at the gas station for 99 cents. Worth an extra liter of water IMO.


summerprophet


Sep 27, 2008, 10:08 PM
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Re: [iamthewallress] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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iamthewallress wrote:
Except when the hanging rap station is so crammed with white rotten sling that you can't get your freshies in there, and although you don't wish to trust your life to the existing crap, it's not yeilding to the force of your bare hands.
Likely? No.
iamthewallress wrote:
And, except when the end of the rope gets wedged behind a flake as you rap off and cutting the snag is the only way to have any length of rope w/ which to procede.
Likely? No.

iamthewallress wrote:
And, except when your hair or clothing gets sucked into your belay device, and you can't unweight it in order to free yourself.

Again, I didn't say you would never need a knife, I just said that the likelyhood of needing one is low. Obviously everyone has to make that call for themselves, However, in my experience I have not required a knife in 18 years of climbing.

Obviously your situations may vary, perhaps you have long glamorous hair you wish to flow free in the wind whilst on rappel, perhaps all your gear consists of sewn slings with which to build retreat anchors from, or perhaps you climb in an area where you need to defend yourself from angry savages. To each their own.


erclimb


Sep 28, 2008, 3:34 AM
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drink a liter before you leave camp...i tend not to eat much when it's hot; food is much more important when it's cold (eating keeps you warm, but you should carry fatty stuff)...if you're carrying 3 liters each, then it's hot enough that food shouldn't be a priority; if it's cold, water isn't so much a priority...rather than a bulky fleece, a windproof cover is far more practical; these vary from shirts to jackets--read the weather reports; though i prefer to drink out of nalgenes, the bladder helps to conserve water (and keep it cooler) and does work better in a pack...shoes depend on the descent, chacos or cirques for anything sketchy...i love the bd beebee

most important of all, get your ass out of the tent early enough to eat a good breakfast and be the first ones on the route...an early start will reduce the amount of water you need; i simply don't understand climbers who think 7 or 8 is "early"

i also agree that you need more practice to increase efficiency


sungam


Sep 28, 2008, 7:53 AM
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Re: [summerprophet] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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I'd say the weight:usefullness ratio of a knife would say take it with you.


Partner rgold


Sep 28, 2008, 9:56 AM
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6 liters is 13 pounds of water. Two pair of approach shoes is another three pounds, maybe a bit more, so there's 16 pounds without food or clothing. Hydrate early and go with 1--2 liters, depending on heat, and descend in your climbing shoes (not the damn slippers you bought for sending V10, sparky) and you just cut ten or more pounds off your load. I've never been a fan of leading with a pack, and I've never found it necessary to carry more than a single bullet pack on any one-day summer rock climb.

If approach shoes are necessary for various reasons, including perhaps an inability to feel secure shod in anything that won't cause your toes to drop off in an hour, then these go on the harness, not in the pack. They seem to be less of a bother if you clip each one separately to a back harness loop rather than having the bulkier bundled pair on a single biner.



Also, if you are in an environment where sudden rain might be a problem, then having a light rain jacket tied around the waist will prevent the leader from becoming soaked and hypothermic waiting for the second to arrive with the pack. As for insulation, most fleeces are too heavy and bulky. I really like my Montbell Thermawrap jacket;



it is as warm or warmer than many fleeces, windproof, weighs less (two of them in the pack adds just a touch over a pound) and stuffs down to nothing. It's not a bivouac piece of course, and it does appear to be fragile---you certainly can't wear it for the Wide. But it stands up to the casual abrasion of most climbing and bushwacking remarkably well, though In high-abrasion country it needs to go under a softshell of some sort.


jackscoldsweat


Sep 28, 2008, 11:09 AM
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not sure if anyone else has suggested this already, as I haven't read the entire thread.

but, you might pick up a copy of Mark Twight's Extreme Alpinism. Despite the fact the book is directed toward alpine elitists, it'll teach you to look at everything you carry with the upmost scrutiny. Twight covers everything from nutrition and physical conditioning to gear modifications and mental mettle.

JCS


(This post was edited by jackscoldsweat on Sep 28, 2008, 11:16 AM)


byran


Sep 29, 2008, 5:43 PM
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Personally I'd ditch the food. I've had a few epics and never was hunger at the front of my mind, it's always the cold or dehydration I wish I could do something about. Pretty much the only thing I pack besides climbing gear is: approach shoes (light-weight tennies, not some clunky hiking boots), a headlamp, a light windbreaker (just for on the climb if it gets cold, not something I could bivy in), 2 liters of water max (1 liter if I expect it to be a cool day), and maybe a lighter.

You can photocopy the topo ahead of time so you don't have to carry the whole guidebook. You can also just bring a single "belay jacket" for you and your partner. Likewise, if it's a warm day and I'm packing a lot of water I'll ditch the jacket completely. Of course this would need to be adapted to your own needs. Obviously if you're a diabetic you can't just head up a 1600 foot route without any food, and some people need more water than me, others less. You just have to know you and your partners abilities, know how committing the route is, and be prepared to climb at a certain pace or bail if it's not going well.


sungam


Sep 29, 2008, 5:45 PM
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I would always have a chocky bar or two with me. Just in case.


salamanizer


Sep 29, 2008, 6:26 PM
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iamthewallress wrote:
Except when the hanging rap station is so crammed with white rotten sling that you can't get your freshies in there, and although you don't wish to trust your life to the existing crap, it's not yeilding to the force of your bare hands.

summerprophet wrote:
Likely? No.

Uh, bullshit. Happens to me all the time. Just happened to me Saturday on Glacier Pt Apron in Yosemite. We climbed Hoosier's Highway and every anchor was rusty 1/4 inchers crammed with webbing. Luckly most of it was so rotten I actually could rip it off with my hands.

iamthewallress wrote:
And, except when the end of the rope gets wedged behind a flake as you rap off and cutting the snag is the only way to have any length of rope w/ which to procede.

summerprophet wrote:
Likely? No.

Though it's never happened to me I usually see or hear about it happening once or twice a year to someone. So.... Likely enough.

iamthewallress wrote:
And, except when your hair or clothing gets sucked into your belay device, and you can't unweight it in order to free yourself.

summerprophet wrote:
Again, I didn't say you would never need a knife, I just said that the likelyhood of needing one is low. Obviously everyone has to make that call for themselves, However, in my experience I have not required a knife in 18 years of climbing.

Obviously your situations may vary, perhaps you have long glamorous hair you wish to flow free in the wind whilst on rappel, perhaps all your gear consists of sewn slings with which to build retreat anchors from, or perhaps you climb in an area where you need to defend yourself from angry savages. To each their own.

I find it hard to believe that in 18 years of climbing you have never found the need for a knife.

That tells me you've either never climbed anything other than the most well traveled trade routes at any given area, only climb sport routes or both.

Try stepping outside the box sometime.

...but bring a knife.


dingus


Sep 29, 2008, 8:39 PM
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Re: [salamanizer] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
iamthewallress wrote:
Except when the hanging rap station is so crammed with white rotten sling that you can't get your freshies in there, and although you don't wish to trust your life to the existing crap, it's not yeilding to the force of your bare hands.

summerprophet wrote:
Likely? No.

Uh, bullshit. Happens to me all the time. Just happened to me Saturday on Glacier Pt Apron in Yosemite. We climbed Hoosier's Highway and every anchor was rusty 1/4 inchers crammed with webbing. Luckly most of it was so rotten I actually could rip it off with my hands.

iamthewallress wrote:
And, except when the end of the rope gets wedged behind a flake as you rap off and cutting the snag is the only way to have any length of rope w/ which to procede.

summerprophet wrote:
Likely? No.

Though it's never happened to me I usually see or hear about it happening once or twice a year to someone. So.... Likely enough.

iamthewallress wrote:
And, except when your hair or clothing gets sucked into your belay device, and you can't unweight it in order to free yourself.

summerprophet wrote:
Again, I didn't say you would never need a knife, I just said that the likelyhood of needing one is low. Obviously everyone has to make that call for themselves, However, in my experience I have not required a knife in 18 years of climbing.

Obviously your situations may vary, perhaps you have long glamorous hair you wish to flow free in the wind whilst on rappel, perhaps all your gear consists of sewn slings with which to build retreat anchors from, or perhaps you climb in an area where you need to defend yourself from angry savages. To each their own.

I find it hard to believe that in 18 years of climbing you have never found the need for a knife.

That tells me you've either never climbed anything other than the most well traveled trade routes at any given area, only climb sport routes or both.

Try stepping outside the box sometime.

...but bring a knife.

I totally agree with the notion of each climber ALWAYS having a harness knife handy.

I usually go with a tiny Gerber or Swiss Army; single blade, one hand open, 10 - 15 bucks tops.

Goes in zipper bottom of chalk bag, on nut tool biner or in zipper pocket.

DMT


btreanor


Sep 29, 2008, 8:55 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Lots of good info here from folks link Dingus, but too many people (not all) are avoiding the question. Telling the OP to go faster on the East Butt of Middle is useful, but not what he or she was asking. For lots of us that route is a quick half day or less, so ask yourself what you would bring on a route that would be a really full day--perhaps into the night, perhaps a forced bivy--for you (whatever that is... valley to valley, NIAD, RNWF, etc.).

Now, my own answer is highly contingent on many things. How hot is it? Is there a possibility of precipitation (what percentage? what kind?)? How likely am I to finish in the daylight? In a push? Etc., etc. That being said, last weekend in Yosemite, for an all-day route I would have taken something like: 1 liter of water, a few bars shoved in my pockets, a light jacket (I'll second the Marmot Driclime windshirt--perfection), approach shoes (each climber clips 'em to the harness). If I think night is even a possibility, I add a headlamp and an extra bar of food. If I think night is a probability and, therefore, bivy a possibility, I'll add a beanie, wear a long sleeve shirt to go with the Driclime at night, shove a lighter in my pocket. Stuff your face with food and water before the route, as others have said.

I might (and have) go heavier or lighter than this depending on likely condition, how fit I am feeling, how bold I am feeling, how lucky I am feeling, who I am climbing with, etc.

So, after a long post, I would suggest: (1) less water, (2) light and compact food, (3) approach shoes on your harness, (4) lighter jackets around your waist or in a light pack (e.g., Cilogear 20L).

Have fun. You'll keep figuring out better and better systems. I'm still learning stuff after 25 years.

Brian

EDIT: Of course there other other light items that others have suggested as well. I always have a small knife on my harness, for example. And because I am pasty and Irish, I often carry a small tube of sun cream to reapply mid-day. The above comments were just to hit the bigger items the OP seemed concerned with.


(This post was edited by btreanor on Sep 29, 2008, 9:00 PM)


sspssp


Sep 30, 2008, 1:37 PM
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Re: [btreanor] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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There are some good suggestions here. I will try and add a few more. Depending on your budget (and what you already own), you can shave weight by getting lighter items.
"Approach shoes" range from under a pound to over two. That is a big difference. My retro tennies (although not very durable) are only 15 ounces. Many routes I will walk off in my Mythos.
I'm not making very many desperate clips on long Yosemite routes. Get the lightest, wire gates out there. My locking belay biner is also a lightweight biner. If you rack each cam with its own biner, don't carry any extra biners (or elaborate anchor setups).
Minimize the large cams. My typical Yosemite rack has only one large hand sized piece (Friends are a little lighter than Camalots), but extra finger sized cams.
Carry a knife, but not a typical 3~4" pocket knife. A 1.5" blade with plastic handle is plenty large enough (but make sure it is serrated). (A knife is important if you catch your shirt in your belay device, if the rope gets hopelessly jammed on rapel--and you need to cut it to continue down, etc.)
There are lighter options than fleece. A hat (or at least a handband) is the most warmth for weight you can get. Wind shirts are good (I like my Transition feather weight T)
Food and water can vary. I might carry 1 liter of water, 4 or 5 gel packs, and a ziplock of trail mix. On the same climb, my parter will carry 2 liters of water and no food at all. Each climber having their own pack is the way to go (and your food and clothing is always with you). I add powdered gatorade to my water to help keep my blood sugar up.
Unless you know you need two ropes to get off, minimize how often you carry a second rope (Most pitches in Yosemite are 30m or less and you can almost always set up a natural anchor to rap).
There are some very light weight head lamps out there. Use lithium batteries.


(This post was edited by sspssp on Sep 30, 2008, 1:39 PM)


hafilax


Sep 30, 2008, 2:05 PM
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Re: [sspssp] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Sports gels are designed to maximize gastric emptying for about 1L of water per hour so carrying more than one gel per liter isn't a very good use of them. You really should take water with them. The point isn't the energy but the fact that you need a certain amount of sugar in your stomach in order to pass water along to the rest of the digestive system where it will be absorbed. Unless you have like 1% body fat you have more than enough energy reserves to get you through the day. Fatigue from dehydration will get you first.

This kind of goes against my original suggestion of carrying less water and it is certainly a difficult compromise that you have to work out with your own body. You want to carry as much water as is needed but no more. This past weekend my girlfriend and I tried to get by with about 4L on an 11 hr scramble and we could have used another litre based on our fatigue. I had hoped to find water along the route.


sspssp


Sep 30, 2008, 3:55 PM
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Re: [hafilax] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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At the risk of hijacking the thread: people's response vary. Sure, gel's are intended to be taken with water. But unless you are already dehydrated, most people could do an all day climb in moderate temps with a liter of water (or less). Although athletic performance may drop.

From long experience, I have found that I need more food and less water [compared to my partner]. When my blood sugar drops, I start feeling tired (and that's not to even mention the possibility of headachs). For a ten hour climb on a day with temps in the 70's, I will climb better with a half dozen gels and one liter of water than with two liters of water and no food. Your mileage may vary. (I'm not at 1%, but yeah, my body fat is pretty low).


(This post was edited by sspssp on Sep 30, 2008, 3:55 PM)


hafilax


Sep 30, 2008, 4:37 PM
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Re: [sspssp] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Are gels high glycemic index? I can't recall. You might be better off eating something that doesn't give you an insulin spike if you really are eating them for the energy. From what I've read, at the very least you should eat them with some protein.


Durin


Oct 1, 2008, 12:51 AM
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Re: [hafilax] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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I'm likely going to get one of the BD packs, either the Bbee or the Bullet.

In reply to:
You can photocopy the topo ahead of time so you don't have to carry the whole guidebook.

I recently thought of that and plan to do so.

Again, regarding approach shoes...I'm going to need something light that can get me down north dome gulley, steck salathe, the cathedrals...etc. Would anyone who's posted here really advise doing that in tennies or running shoes? I'm looking into Chaco sandals.

Also, are there any good alternatives to both Nalgenes and bladders? I've had three bladders leak on me over the years. Two from Camelbak, one from Platypus.

Regarding the knife debate, they don't weigh very much, I'll keep my gerber with me. My petzl zipka is pretty damn tiny and light, so that's sticking too.

The marmot wind shirt does look awesome. I figure with that, then depending on the circumstances, a patagonia capilene and a light rain jacket should keep me comfortable for most long single-day climbs.

Any other food ideas? The gel debate is interesting.

In reply to:
ALSO, don't be scared off by the captain

I'm not, I look forward to it eagerly. I'm only 20, so the regular northwest face and the Nose both loom on the horizon :)


russwalling


Oct 1, 2008, 8:12 AM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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To each his own I suppose..... Here is my full day set up:

I hate packs and will avoid taking them on routes:

Food: none. LIke I cant go a day without a snack?
Water: Almost none. Drink what I have on the approach. Take none on route. If it is really all day, and hot, maybe take a quart for two people.
Clothing: Light wind shell tied around my waist.
Shoes: Water socks that get tucked into the back of my harness while on the route. Or just do the descent in the climbing shoes I used on the route, but with the heels turned down.
Other stuff: knife (really small one for webbing in bolt hangers), tiny headlamp, and if there are trees on the summit, a lighter or matches.

try this too: http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=449338

I'll add: if you are doing a fairly long route THAT IS HARD FOR YOU, you can always hand over hand (hate to say haul since you guys will go nuts) the SMALL PACK up on your trail line. This way the second can do some actual moves without struggling under the weight and bulk of a pack.


(This post was edited by russwalling on Oct 1, 2008, 8:16 AM)


dingus


Oct 1, 2008, 9:31 AM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Durin wrote:
Also, are there any good alternatives to both Nalgenes and bladders? I've had three bladders leak on me over the years. Two from Camelbak, one from Platypus.

I hate those fucking things.

I use the evil plastic water bottle. I take an old sewn sling and duct tape it length-wise round the bottle, then tie a shortening knot in the loop - viola - poor man's canteen.

When I'm done with is I use my Box Cutter in my garage to cut my water bottle sling off the throw-away (which goes into my recycle bin) so I can reuse the sling for the next water bottle.

Some of my more militant Green friends do not approve. So I killed them.

DMT


sspssp


Oct 1, 2008, 2:52 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Durin wrote:

Again, regarding approach shoes...I'm going to need something light that can get me down north dome gulley, steck salathe, the cathedrals...etc. Would anyone who's posted here really advise doing that in tennies or running shoes? I'm looking into Chaco sandals.

Most "approach" shoes are off-trail shoes with big treads. I prefer something with a more climbing shoe bottom or "dot rubber". Trail shoes are heavy and don't smear that well on open slabs.

Even the shoes geared more towards climbers tend to be heavy (with good support). Maybe ok for a long a approach with a pack or wearing on an alpine scramble. For Yosemite descents, I want something lighter. Lighter tends to wear out faster but I only wear/carry the light shoes on climbs like East Butress. For cragging (or routes that I don't need separate descent shoes) I wear something else. I'm not carrying a 2 pound pair of shoes up a climb.

I've come down north dome gulley, and Steck Salathe in my retro-tennies (or equivalent). I would carry a light pair of running shoes before carrying a heavy approach shoe.

Durin wrote:


Also, are there any good alternatives to both Nalgenes and bladders? I've had three bladders leak on me over the years. Two from Camelbak, one from Platypus.
Bladders are convenient but dangerous. I have had generally good luck with the Platypus, but I replace it regularly. On an all day route, I might put a liter of water in the bladder and then carry 12~16 oz of water in a disposal water bottle. If the bladder entirely leaks, I have some emergency water. When I finish the bladder, I know I can still take a drink at the top.

Durin wrote:


The marmot wind shirt does look awesome. I figure with that, then depending on the circumstances, a patagonia capilene and a light rain jacket should keep me comfortable for most long single-day climbs.

Any other food ideas? The gel debate is interesting.

In reply to:
ALSO, don't be scared off by the captain

I'm not, I look forward to it eagerly. I'm only 20, so the regular northwest face and the Nose both loom on the horizon :)

If you want a "rain jacket" in addition to a wind shirt, I would do a somewhat warmer shirt that breathes well and then a super-light wind/rain shell. The shell can double as a wind jacket for cold belays.

Food and water depends on how your body responds. People go overboard thinking gels have to be consumed with water (since that is what the directions on the packet say). A handful of nuts also "have to be consumed with water" for best digestion, but they don't come with directions. I can climb all day on gel and still drink less water than my partner can. He either dehydrates more quickly than me (or suffers more). My athletic performace drops more quickly with a drop in blood sugar.

I wouldn't try to scare any one off from E.B. of ElCap, but I do disagree with the previous poster who didn't think it much harder than E.B. of Middle. Although you can aid through the 10b crux on the ElCap route, the ElCap route has a longer approach and descent, some wide climbing--mandatory at the start and then a later offwidth section that can only be avoided by a somewhat runout 5.9 face. Finally it has a 5.7X section near the top. That is way more difficult, at least for the leader, than anything on Middle (it is perhaps not much harder for the second). A very fun route.

cheers


(This post was edited by sspssp on Oct 1, 2008, 3:35 PM)


dingus


Oct 1, 2008, 3:07 PM
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Re: [sspssp] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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yes e butt el Cap is a more serious climb than e butt Middle - considerably imo. A definite STEP up.

I don't even think of E Butt of middle as a grade IV... to me its a III now. E Butt of El Cap is definitely IV. And it has a *must not blow it* pitch - something completely lacking on E butt middle.

And in spring there is Horsetail Falls......

DMT


Durin


Oct 1, 2008, 4:04 PM
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Re: [dingus] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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In reply to:
On moderate but longer routes each climber carries her own shit. That's the starting point. You'd be amazed what you can get rid of when YOU have to carry it all the time.

In reply to:
That's my approach. I hate toting my partner's heavy bullshit. It also puts YOUR gear at YOUR fingertips when you need it. And you end up toting MUCH LESS WEIGHT too.

So, if you were to lead that 5.7X pitch on EB of El Cap, would you still carry all of your own shit? Or was that more of just a general rule?

If EB of middle is III, is Arches II?

Also, what/where is horsetail falls? RC.com route search only returns an ice climb in colorado.

In reply to:
Take EITHER the windshirt, or the rain jacket. Not both. Unless you are climbing in Antarctica. /quote]

If I've got a wind shirt and no rain jacket, and it pours, am I screwed?


sspssp


Oct 1, 2008, 4:19 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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My partner and I carry all our own crap, even on every pitch of EB of El Cap.

Arches is still a III just for length. But for perspective: my partner and I have climbed Arches in 1.5~2 hours and EB of Middle in 2~2.5 hours (simul climbing). On EB of ElCap there are a few really easy pitches in the middle of the climb we simul, but I'm not up to simuling any of the other pitches on EB of ElCap. Our time on EB of ElCap is more like 6~7 hours.

Getting caught in the rain can be really serious. I got caught in Yosemite thunderstorm on a June day (forecast was sunny in mid-90s) with a cotton t-shirt and light, nylon shell and was pretty shocked how cold I got (even though the wind was fairly mild and the air wasn't that cold). A light shell with nothing underneath doesn't do much in the rain because it plasters down on your skin and the rain is cold through the thin material (even if stay "mostly" dry).

However, I don't carry much rain gear. But I do my "serious" climbs on days with good forecasts and I'm pretty cautious when clouds build. I've rapped off more than once (because I didn't have rain gear) when it never rained.

For late spring to early fall on an all day climb, I will typically take (at most) my Transition featherweight T and a super light shell. Is that "enough" to ride out a cold, hard thunderstorm? Well, I wouldn't expect to die, but I wouldn't say it is enough either.

Horsetails comes off the top of ElCap a little east of EB of ElCap. Go to supertopo.com and do a search on Horsetail falls.


(This post was edited by sspssp on Oct 1, 2008, 4:27 PM)


dingus


Oct 1, 2008, 4:21 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Durin wrote:
So, if you were to lead that 5.7X pitch on EB of El Cap, would you still carry all of your own shit? Or was that more of just a general rule?

I did carry my own shit up that lead, yes. As with others, I don't take much on routes like that.

In reply to:
If EB of middle is III, is Arches II?

Hmmm, good point. I guess the techniques that render the E butt of middle a III are the same things you'd need to turn RA into a II - a decent amount of simul-climbing and not getting stuck behind slower parties.

In reply to:
what/where is horsetail falls?



http://www.world-of-waterfalls.com/...horsetail-falls.html

Horsetail Falls is a seasonal snowmelt water fall down the east side of El Cap. It dries up by late spring / mid-summer most years. Its not a deluge, more like a light shower.

So in the mornings the winds aren't blowing and the water falls straight down - sorta down onto routes like Born Under a Bad Sign I think somewhere in that vicinity (don't hold me to that)

Yeah and spring in the Valley - oh man you get amped to do something long! And the south side routes why they face north and hold the cold a lot longer. So you might be all keen to jump on something testy and you look over there at El Cap basking in sunlight and suddenly you're

on 6p of the East Butt when the winds start kicking up. The first trickle of water drops blowing from the falls sorta clues you in real fast as to why the granite on that pitch has a particularly varnishy patina.

El Cap forms a bit of a funnel in the valley so those afternoon winds can get pretty stout. They are what let big wall climbers still get on in decent fashion, even in August.

So if the wind is decent? The East Butt gets HAMMERED.

In reply to:
If I've got a wind shirt and no rain jacket, and it pours, am I screwed?

Depends. If you get nighted as a result of that storm, you could be in trouble depending upon how cold it gets that night. I only take rain-ish gear if I think I'll need it though.

Cheers. Sounds like you're in for a great run dude. You're gonna love it!
DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Oct 1, 2008, 4:24 PM)


brutusofwyde


Oct 7, 2008, 9:37 PM
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I always have the following items with me when climbing outdoors:
Butane lighter (and matches) Some modern china junk lighters come with an LED and a compass.
Benedryl (for allergic reactions) --~8 in a tiny tube -- My partner carries the epi-pen.
Water purification tablets ~8 in a tiny tube
Knife 1.5" blade on a lightweight keeper cord that fits around my wrist just tight enough that I can let the knife dangle and it will not slip off
Headlamp I generally carry a Zipka with fresh lithium batteries, and one set of spare batteries.
Caffeine tablets 4 tabs protected in duct tape

All of these items fit easily into the zip compartment of my chalk bag.

Chalk bag is connected to harness by a superlight Trango locking carabiner. A second locker is dedicated to my cleaning tool. a third holds two prussiks, (shoulder-length cord tied with double grapevine -- can be pressed into use as additional runners or untied and used as rap tat)

Descent shoes: Do you need them? I've walked the descent gully after Steck-Salathe numerous times in climbing shoes. On long climbs, it helps to have climbing shoes that are comfy for all day wear anyways. What sizes of shoe do you and your partner wear? Nurse Ratchet is half a size smaller in the foot than I, so on climbs where we really need descent shoes she wears my climbing shoes for the descent. That way we only need to take one pair of extra shoes for the walk off.

Agree with the other posters that if you need 3 liters of water, best to climb somewhere cooler.

Food: Skittles in a snack ziplock in the pocket. On really long climbs (SS for instance) toss in a candy bar and a cheese stick or two.

Go-light hooded wind shirt: smaller than an apple.
Agree with others: I'll take either the windbreaker or a lightweight rain jacket, but not both.

For an all day climb, I'll throw in one more piece of upper body clothing, either a long-sleeve shirt or a primaloft vest depending on wind and temperatures. Plus a lightweight fleece Balaclava. I take into consideration that I generally wear kneepads (and often neoprene elbow pads as well) and that these provide substantial additional insulation.

Another thought on climbs that are long and hard (for you) -- These days when I go to do Steck-Salathe, I'll go to the summit a day or two before, and stash descent shoes, food, water, and sleeping bags at the summit, because I know I'll be topping out at sunset or later. Always leave a note with such a stash, emphasizing that the gear is not abandoned and is critical for your survival.

If you are inventive and really fanatical about weight, it is possible, with occasional water sources, to do a three day climb comfortably in California carrying only your climbing gear and one Bullet pack apiece.


EvilMonkey


Nov 6, 2008, 5:35 AM
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an alternative to taking food is power gel. that's usually all i take, plus a cliff bar. eat 1 every 45 min. till you run out, and you'll have tons of energy. something that i didn't notice mentioned is the weight of your rack. dmm phantom biners weigh 26 grams. camp nanos are around that too. get dyneema slings. ultra-light nuts and cams(if you can afford em). leave your #9 hex at home. think about a thinner rope. an alpine pack should be no heavier than 35 lbs without rack and rope. i bet you can get yours down to less than half that.


fatoomchk


Dec 2, 2008, 4:37 AM
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Re: [EvilMonkey] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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EvilMonkey wrote:
an alternative to taking food is power gel.

I know a lot of guy like gels here. I tried them a few times, but they upset my stomach a bit (despite experimenting with the amount of water I drink with them).

Now I really like dried figs. A huge long lasting energy boost, and they are a bit friendlier on my stomach. And they're cheaper too...


rtwilli4


Dec 5, 2008, 9:28 AM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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I'm sure someone has hit on this already but it seems to me that you are carrying a lot of food and water. I've never climbed in Yosemite before but the routes you're talking about are like 10 pitches right?

Just drink and eat a lot the day before, and that morning. Take some nuts, jelly beans, bananas, a peanut butter sandwich or something that does a good job of filling you up... but not all of the above. Also... if it's cool enough that you are carrying a fleece, you can probably get away with 2 or 3 liters of water between the two of you.

Get a hydration pack with extra space that you can fit your own snacks in. If you are taking emergency gear like a headlamp or knife, you should have it clipped on your harness, a gear sling, or in a easily accessible pocket... not in a back pack.

Then the second can carry a small to medium pack that also takes a hydration pack. He carries all his own water and food, and your pair of shoes and fleece.


chossmonkey


Dec 5, 2008, 10:06 AM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Put drink mix in your water to cut down on food you need to take with. Make sure you are well hydrated before starting to climb and take less water.


AlexCV


Dec 5, 2008, 11:25 AM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Also, are there any good alternatives to both Nalgenes and bladders? I've had three bladders leak on me over the years. Two from Camelbak, one from Platypus.

You can try the MSR dromedary or drom-lite water bladders with the optional hydration kit. Heavier then the platypus, but lined with cordura and a nalgene-like screwcap.


vegastradguy


Dec 16, 2008, 12:57 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Durin wrote:
I've been climbing for about a year now, mostly indoors, but as of late I've started going to Yosemite a lot. I've done Snake Dike and Royal Arches, but last weekend I tried East Buttress of Middle Cathedral Rock and I found we were carrying too much stuff.

For two people:
6 liters of water
enough food for a day
2 fleece jackets
2 pairs of approach shoes

The leader obviously starts with most of the rack and shouldn't carry nearly as much as the second, but still, 6 liters = 12 pounds of water, so I carried 3 liters while leading. We had a couple other little items like headlamps, knife, emergency blanket, a couple other little essentials. The forecast was perfectly sunny so we didn't bring any sort of rain jacket or windbreaker, though I do have very compact ones.

It just seems to me that to be reasonably safe/prepared for an all-day route like east buttress of middle cathedral, or a harder one like steck salathe, each person needs approach shoes for the descent and a warm fleece jacket, but together with the food and water it's too heavy and bulky. Snake Dike and Royal Arches had such easy climbing that we just muscled through it with packs. Now that I'm getting into more technical climbs it just doesn't seem feasible.

Any suggestions? My climbing partner and I both have LaSportiva Exum Ridge approach shoes and Columbia fleece jackets. Are there lighter and less cumbersome alternatives?

and how much of that water do you have left on top of the route? that's how much extra you should have left on the ground.

take a rain shell in place of a fleece- it'll do just fine for keeping you warm and stuffs to a fraction of the size and weight.

food = up to 4 packs of gu even for a big route.

headlamp = tikka or e-lite

no e-blanket.

knife- get the trango shark nut tool- has the knife built in.

and you carry your own approach shoes on a short tether (keeps them from annoying you up against the waist- mine is about 4" long).


ladyscarlett


Dec 22, 2008, 12:51 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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My first all day multi pitch I definitely over packed. As a newbie, I'm a little paranoid about not being prepared. I didn't lead and cleaned for some pitches. Everyone carried their own stuff, though I had extra food - for which my partners were very grateful.

What I learned that day about packs -

- 2L+ of water is waaay to much for me. At the end of the day, I didn't even finish a liter. Mini nalgene (4-6oz) is really nice and convenient on the harness.

- Too much food - The dried squid and red bean cakes went fast (ha!), but brought too much light and sweet and not enough savoury protein (more cheese please!). My pack was much lighter toward the end of the day, but in the end I could have done with less.

- Sometimes being small is awesome! Kid sized Keens are light and small. My pack actually helped in the chimney, gave me extra inches of helpful girth. Our 6'2 leader had to bring his pack up clipped below him - yay for being smaller!

- I needed weight training - Now I climb with a small pack as much as possible to get used to it. I've only done a couple leads, without a pack, but once I get more confident, I'm going to wear that pack. People laugh, but it has paid off.

- Too many layers - Fleece was in my pack all day - the windproof vest however was a lifesaver.

Every time I go out, I learn more and more.

Do people always go out for the day as light as possible? or are there days you "splurge" and carry some heavier "treats" for the top - ie beer, donuts, etc? What has been the heaviest non-gear item you've brought on an all day adventure?

ls


dingus


Dec 23, 2008, 7:59 AM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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ladyscarlett wrote:
- Too much food - The dried squid and red bean cakes went fast (ha!), but brought too much light and sweet and not enough savoury protein (more cheese please!). My pack was much lighter toward the end of the day, but in the end I could have done with less.

Lady SCARLETT! One can NEVER have too mcuh SQUID on a rock climb! And the red bean cakes... why I have TWO OF THEM, stuffed in my pocket, RIGHT NOW!

(just ribbin ya, no worries)

I must say never in the history of my climbing have I heard of squid and red bean cakes as climbing food.

In reply to:
Do people always go out for the day as light as possible? or are there days you "splurge" and carry some heavier "treats" for the top - ie beer, donuts, etc?

Of course - but one can splurge light too.

In reply to:
What has been the heaviest non-gear item you've brought on an all day adventure?

For me beer wins this one, hands down. But all in all I prefer to avoid splurging for longer rock routes. Once the systems are dialed it is often better to splurge after you get back to the car.

DMT


petsfed


Dec 23, 2008, 8:54 AM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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When I was doing a lot of all day routes (several years ago, now), my partner and I paired our mutual equipment down to 2 liters a piece in camelbacks, a couple of clif bars or fruit snacks (my go to energy food) in a pants pocket, and an incredibly streamlined rack. If weren't sure to need doubles of anything, we did not bring it. We didn't carry any piece larger than tight hands if we didn't need it. Wiregates on everything. At the end of any given pitch, I was typically cobbling together an anchor from the six or so nuts I had left. Between the two of us, we'd have a dozen slings. We carried only one nut tool, and about 6 locking carabiners (1 for each belay device, 1 for each daisy chain/cow's tail, 2 for utility)

The only reason we carried approach shoes was because all of the routes we did had mile-long approaches, and the walkoff deposited us back at the vehicle. I typically wore a t-shirt, a midweight capilene top, some lightweight softshell pants (much lighter than our usual carharts) and if it was chilly, a primaloft vest. I occasionaly brought a disposable camera, they tend to be lighter than any digital set up, although the image quality suffers considerably.

Our only luxury was a #9 hex, which served as our hand-sized piece, nut tool hammer, and emergency rappel device.

We also had changeovers dialed, and discussions were kept to a minimum. If I had to pass on a lead, my partner would take it, no questions asked. If he had to pass on a lead, I would take it. The climbs we did were all of a sort that the only way out was up. In fact, our mantra when gunning for the top was "lets get off this thing".

Your approach to all of these climbs is that the easiest way off is via the top, and all of your choices should be devoted to that goal. My bail slings, for instance, were primarily my long slings (I prefer tied double length slings, as I can convert them to an aider easier).

It will take some experience before you can start pairing your equipment down to what will enable a one-day ascent of anything, but keep in mind that once you plan for a comfortable bivouac, you're no longer going for in-a-day anything.


(This post was edited by petsfed on Dec 23, 2008, 8:55 AM)


k.l.k


Dec 23, 2008, 9:14 AM
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Re: [dingus] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
I must say never in the history of my climbing have I heard of squid and red bean cakes as climbing food.
DMT

Dude, you're missing out. Red bean cakes rock. Moon cakes
. . .mmmmmmm.

But squid doesn't have enough calories for pocket food.

I usually splurge on one of those small fennel or piccante salamis from the Italian deli. Or maybe a piece of Mozz.


sungam


Dec 23, 2008, 9:46 AM
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Re: [k.l.k] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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From now on I'll be taking oatmeal creme pies. I can't believe how much energy is in those things.


villageidiot


Dec 23, 2008, 11:55 AM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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I've never climbed in Yosemite and have a perspective shaped by shorter Colorado routes, where an electrical storm is nearly guaranteed between 2:00 and 4:00, I think alot of this still applies.

I generally rack on my harness and hate crap dangling off it, so no water bottles or rain jackets. If I am carrying shoes one goes on each of the back loops. I find the BD bullet pack to be pretty comfortable to climb in and it holds a nalgene, headlamp, extra clothing, and rain jacket.

Depending on the temps I go with a pint or a quart of water.

I'd don't carry a knife, but often have a razor blade taped on the back of my helmet, not ideal, but light. Knives on harnesses scare me, I have missed be hit by inches from "securely" clipped ones.

I almost always leave the shoes on the ground as I am a dumb redneck who often belays barefoot in broken glass. Occasionally it slows me down, but I can keep up with most of my partners threw rock, jaggers, and the occasional snow patch. This does not work for all routes.

A rain jacket is usually a must as is some other clothing. Maybe I am a wuss, but I can't belay in 30 degree shade, wearing the same clothing I would climb in 70 degree sun.

Like several other people have said, do not agree to having the second carrying the pack. You end up with 3 times the weight.


roseraie


Dec 23, 2008, 12:28 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Durin wrote:
I'm likely going to get one of the BD packs, either the Bbee or the Bullet.

In reply to:
You can photocopy the topo ahead of time so you don't have to carry the whole guidebook.

I recently thought of that and plan to do so.

Again, regarding approach shoes...I'm going to need something light that can get me down north dome gulley, steck salathe, the cathedrals...etc. Would anyone who's posted here really advise doing that in tennies or running shoes? I'm looking into Chaco sandals.

Also, are there any good alternatives to both Nalgenes and bladders? I've had three bladders leak on me over the years. Two from Camelbak, one from Platypus.

Regarding the knife debate, they don't weigh very much, I'll keep my gerber with me. My petzl zipka is pretty damn tiny and light, so that's sticking too.

The marmot wind shirt does look awesome. I figure with that, then depending on the circumstances, a patagonia capilene and a light rain jacket should keep me comfortable for most long single-day climbs.

Any other food ideas? The gel debate is interesting.

In reply to:
ALSO, don't be scared off by the captain

I'm not, I look forward to it eagerly. I'm only 20, so the regular northwest face and the Nose both loom on the horizon :)

Dude, nix the Chacos for Yosemite descents. Sure, they'd be fine for Manure Pile, but it sounds like you're eying bigger things. Chacos would SUCK in the North Dome Gully or on the East Ledges. Protect your toes, so you can climb tomorrow! Just hang your approach shoes on your harness, in whichever way feels best to you. It's amazing how much less awkward your pack will be without the shoes in it.

Where was your Platypus leaking? From the hose, right? When climbing, I don't mess with hydration hose things, I just carry a 2L Platypus with a screw lid. Yes, you have to take it out to drink, but Platypus products have a lifetime guarantee, and I've been carrying mine for YEARS with no leaking. I've chimneyed with the thing in my pack a zillion times. I recommend the Platypus over Nalgenes because it keeps the weight up against your body, and it gets smaller as your drink it, a big bonus!!

So I am a BIG proponent of both partners carrying their own shit. It really annoys me when I am climbing with someone, and she or he is like, oh, you're bringing a pack, can I stick my bar/sunglasses/jacket/etc in there? Get a small pack that stays up close to your body, like the BD Bullet or something similar. Both people carry their own stuff, all the time. Then, you get used to it, and you don't have to put that big heavy pack on every other pitch.

Everyone who keeps telling you to ditch the water... I disagree. I live here in Yosemite and am a fairly moderate climber... you're going to be STUCK IN LINE on these routes you want to do, which means you are going to spend lots of time baking in the sun, and you're going to want to stay hydrated. If I'm on a popular Grade III or IV moderate, I bring 2L of water. I also bring food with me, usually 2 bars and some very salty peanuts or cashews.

Now, I carry most of what you do when I climb. I bring a fleece (gasp) and sometimes a windshirt too, because I get cold easily. But, with my shoes on my harness (never in the pack), carrying half the stuff all the time (even when leading), and keeping the water up against my body... it's a totally bearable load. And I'm a pretty small person who leads with A LOT of gear on me. Just suck it up... it'll get easier. And MAKE YOUR PARTNER CARRY HIS OR HER OWN SHIT.


caughtinside


Dec 23, 2008, 6:52 PM
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Re: [roseraie] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Hmm, I disagree about the whole 'everyone carries their own shit' philosophy. Long routes are a team endeavor, the team should decide what to do. If the weather is good and you don't take a pack, sure, everyone carries their own snacks. But if the decision is made to take a single pack, all the shit goes in the pack and the SECOND CARRIES THE PACK. You both get to decide what goes in there, and you'll both be carrying it if you're swinging leads. If you're not swinging leads, and you're a designated second for the whole route, well, just shut up and do what you're told since you're being guided.

Also, disagree about the chacos. They're my preferred descent shoe because they're less bulky than shoes. I've done many yosemite descents in them.

The gatorade mix is a good way to go as well. Three liters of water per person is probably too much for most routes unless there is a long approach. You need to ration and hydrate before and after the climb.


sungam


Dec 23, 2008, 7:36 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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Yeah, second carries the pack in summer. Especially on harder routes.
Who wants the extra insecurity of an off-balance pack whilst on the sharp end?
Let the second deal with it, and give them the 3rd hand if necessary.


mar_leclerc


Dec 27, 2008, 3:44 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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The more you get out the better you will get at cutting down pack weight. Bring less food and learn to live with it. If there is water on the descent bring less... pre-hydrate. Even if you get thirsty learn to live with it..... living witha bit of self deprivation can be really important if you start doing big alpine routes. Camel-Packs are more comfy than carrying bottles. Bring a smaller rack..... if you are doing a route with an easy section that is all hand cracks but the cruxes take fingersize pro bring very few hand size peices and run it out on the easy stuff and carry the little stuff to protect the cruxes. If you can lead 5.11 at the crag only do big routes to 5.10 where you can carry less pro without sketchin out.... caryy small packs too, when you are packing a big pack you will be tempted to fill it up.. with a small pack you obvious carry less gear. Just always remember headlamps, a lighter, a knife (especially if you may have to retreat) those shiny space blankets are good to have as well as a toque. Having a toque on your head and a light sweater is warmer than a heavy sweater and no hat. Just a couple tips....


Partner angry


Dec 27, 2008, 4:10 PM
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Re: [Durin] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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So I didn't read all the other responses but I'm going to reply.

For a one day route, you only need maybe 2 liters. 1 or 1.5 will probably do. Chug a bunch before you start. You'll be 4 pitches up before you even think about being thirsty.

Carry a light windbreaker or a super light synthetic puffy. Both are lighter and less bulky then a fleece.

For shoes, try not to wear them. If you must, try to ditch them somewhere that the descent crosses the approach. Walk with your feet in the front of your climbing shoes and your heels hanging out on the ground. A pair of sacrificial socks can help.

If you really do need footwear, you can get $5 flip flops or make a pair out of cardboard, webbing, and duct tape. They'll be light and low profile and will easily stash in a camelback, even when full.

Food, just a few cliff bars (I prefer the Snickers Marathon) and a couple shots of GU. If you ran out of food, you're normal. Eat when you finish.

You'll easily be able to have it all in a medium camelback (I don't use the bladder, just a 2L plastic jug inside). I have done this on most of the routes in the valley, Astroman, Steck Salathe, Rostrum, RNWF Half Dome, etc. I've also employed it on the Diamond and Black Canyon in CO. It works. Only one route, Moonlight Buttress in Zion, was I not willing to climb with that shit. We just hauled a small backpack using a mini-trax and no mechanical advantage.

If this doesn't work for you and you need more stuff or it's causing you to move too slow, then it's time for you to revisit how you're approaching multipitch routes because you're doing something wrong. Also, you don't need to be comfortable when you get benighted, it's supposed to suck. That's where good stories come from.


graniteboy


Jan 2, 2009, 12:53 PM
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Re: [angry] All-day routes: pack weight is horrible [In reply to]
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The per person "packed gear" necessary for EB middle cathedral, other grade IIIs, etc:
1) a quart of water in a pepsi bottle (these bottles are tough, lightweight) Chug up on fluids the night B4 and the morning of the climb. You can carry more fluid comfortably in your bloodstream than you can in a pack.
2) 2 power bars and a king size snickers in the bottom of the chalk bag
3) a space blanket
4) a very small 1st aid kit.
5) plenty of common sense, experience, and speed.

Until you have #5, you should keep working on developing that stuff until you're actually ready to do longer routes....I mean, until you can easily do n=7 two pitch routes or n=15 one pitch routes in a day, why punish yourself trying to punch off a 15 pitch route? You're just gonna slow down everyone else and end up bivying....

Total weight: ~3 lbs????


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