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what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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Poll: what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
climbing rope 124 / 53%
daisy chain 29 / 12%
sewn slings 57 / 24%
other 24 / 10%
234 total votes
 

full1346


Oct 19, 2008, 2:27 PM
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what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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 i have seen alot of methods and was just interested in seeing what the majority of people use to anchor themselves to the belay anchor when they are belaying.


dj69


Oct 19, 2008, 2:31 PM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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Well.. it depends.

Most of the time on trad i just clove hitch the rope to the anchor.

On sport routes though i use a daisy.


Partner cracklover


Oct 19, 2008, 3:02 PM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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Rope. Unless I'm going to be rapping when my partner gets up to the ledge, in which case I use a sling.

GO


Factor2


Oct 19, 2008, 3:07 PM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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I regularly use all the methods you listed and more depending on the situation


climbingtrash


Oct 19, 2008, 3:07 PM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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For belaying multi-pitch routes, bolted or crack, I use the climbing rope...makes the most sense if you think about it.


superory


Oct 19, 2008, 4:50 PM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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i always clip my P.A.S. right onto one of the bolts or pieces making the anchor and then clove the rope in to the powerpoint. might be overkill but it dosnt take that long and its backed up and freakin truck.


(This post was edited by superory on Oct 19, 2008, 4:54 PM)


altelis


Oct 19, 2008, 6:01 PM
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Re: [superory] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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i've got to chime in here

i'm not entirely comfortable with the current trend of climbers today using the phrase "freakin truck" or even "fucking truck" in place of the commonly accepted and time tested phrase "bomber" or "bomb proof"

now- i understand that each situation demands its own special rules and in climbing everything is situational, but most of the time "bomber" or "bomb proof" is the way to go.

for sure i use "fucking truck" in other aspects of my life, like "don't mind the rattling noises from the elevator, its fucking truck" or, "that nail in the dry wall is fucking truck- go ahead and hang your 400lb mirror from it!" or my (and other tuck owners) personal favorite "its official guys, after last night i can say i own a fucking truck!"

Cool


kane_schutzman


Oct 19, 2008, 6:11 PM
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Re: [altelis] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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Use the rope, most the time I do an eight on bite, clip it in. Sometimes clove if I have a good stance, the eight feels better.


superory


Oct 19, 2008, 6:31 PM
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Re: [altelis] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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ill interchange bomber and truck often with no real rhyme or reason to why other than that one just popped into my head first. but i dont see any harm in expanding our vocabulary


altelis


Oct 19, 2008, 6:43 PM
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Re: [kane_schutzman] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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kane_schutzman wrote:
Use the rope, most the time I do an eight on bite, clip it in. Sometimes clove if I have a good stance, the eight feels better.


i really don't get this.
Clove Advantages: you can adjust your distance without untying the knot; tying/clipping one handed is easy; bomber
Eight Advantages: bomber

the knots are equally well suited in terms of strength, why not add adjustability and ease of tying (esp one handed- why would a good stance mean clove instead of 8, i would think the opposite)?



and damnit we're climbers- we're not here to expand our vocabulary!


socalclimber


Oct 19, 2008, 7:04 PM
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Re: [altelis] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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Mostly rope. Clove first, pull some slack, then figure 8 for a backup.


Partner angry


Oct 19, 2008, 7:05 PM
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Re: [altelis] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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altelis wrote:
i've got to chime in here

i'm not entirely comfortable with the current trend of climbers today using the phrase "freakin truck" or even "fucking truck" in place of the commonly accepted and time tested phrase "bomber" or "bomb proof"

now- i understand that each situation demands its own special rules and in climbing everything is situational, but most of the time "bomber" or "bomb proof" is the way to go.

for sure i use "fucking truck" in other aspects of my life, like "don't mind the rattling noises from the elevator, its fucking truck" or, "that nail in the dry wall is fucking truck- go ahead and hang your 400lb mirror from it!" or my (and other tuck owners) personal favorite "its official guys, after last night i can say i own a fucking truck!"

Cool

I think we should come up with entirely new vocabulary.

For now on, badly placed pro will be referred to in the context of mouse balls, IE: that thing couldn't hold up mouse balls

I'm going to call all good solid placements "taxes and death", IE: that nut is as sure as taxes and death.

Do not feel free to come up with your own cliches. Yours will suck. Just use mine, you'll feel better about it and won't make yourself look stupid by trying too hard.


climbingtrash


Oct 19, 2008, 8:04 PM
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Re: [angry] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
...Do not feel free to come up with your own cliches. Yours will suck. Just use mine, you'll feel better about it and won't make yourself look stupid by trying too hard.

Don't tell me what to do.


superbumbly


Oct 19, 2008, 9:54 PM
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Re: [climbingtrash] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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somebody notify homeland security.

This thread has been well and truly hijacked

Back on to topic.

Base up, , screw gate to my harness clipped to 8mm cordellette sling, clipped to three =ised pieces of bomber/death&taxes pro. Lead down, figure 8 clipped to belay loop with screw gate running to second screw gate clipped to my harness clipped to figure 8 tied from climbing rope clipped to three =ised pieces of bomber/death&taxes pro.


(This post was edited by superbumbly on Oct 20, 2008, 5:40 AM)


superory


Oct 19, 2008, 10:35 PM
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Re: [superbumbly] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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superbumbly wrote:
somebody notify homeland security.

This thread has been well and truly hijacked

Back on to topic.

Base up, , screw gate to my harness clipped to 8mm cordellette sling, clipped to three =ised pieces of bomber/death&taxes pro. Lead down, figure 8 clipped to belay loop with screw gate running to second screw gate clipped to my harness clipped to figure 8 tied from climbing rope to clipped three =ised pieces of bomber/death&taxes pro.

you forgot "freakin truck"Wink


davidwebb1969


Oct 20, 2008, 3:29 AM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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I use the climbing rope and tie in short and then use my Daisy Chain as a redundancy for the system.


erclimb


Oct 20, 2008, 4:06 AM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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daisy to get hands free; then, clove hitch on the rope...i not only like the redundancy, the doubling allows for easier/safer adjustments if necessary (like when your partner insists on coming up on the right even though the left is much easier and you made plenty of room and set up your own anchor that way and starting the next pitch will now require climbing over/around your partner...but she's really cute)


Gmburns2000


Oct 20, 2008, 6:45 AM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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Clove each rope to a different piece if not rapping off. Sewn sling if rapping.


Partner xtrmecat


Oct 20, 2008, 7:29 AM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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I always clip the anchor upon arrival just like a piece of pro, and then with a twist of the wrist I can throw a clove. I then equalize the bolts/pieces and build a power point and then run the belay rope through this beaner. I always back myself up to the PP with a sewn runner and then bring up the second.
I find it very disturbing that anyone at all uses a daisy. They are not made for this, they do not even come close to doing the job right. There are no daisies in the current gear market that are more than body weight only. There are many other ways to screw up anchoring with a daisy that could end up in death. This fact has been brought up many times previously and this practice still occurs. Darwins theory will sort it out eventually.
Bob


brownie710


Oct 20, 2008, 8:00 AM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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initially I clip the rope to the first piece while building the anchor
then once it's done i clip a double length sling to the powerpoint and to myself (unclipping the rope from the first piece of the anchor.

then...yes, then...once i pull the rope up for my second and set up the guide i then clove in with the rope. i have found that if i clove in first that the rope sometimes becomes clustered.


hafilax


Oct 20, 2008, 9:14 AM
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Re: [brownie710] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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I tie in with the rope unless leading in blocks or rappelling. For those times I use a sewn sling.

I think that it is a good idea to tie in with a dynamic rope. This protects the anchor from the human funkness device. Some people build a tie in with an old piece of rope. I think they call it a cow's tail or something like that. Some even make a double cow's tail for redundancy.

Backing up the rope tie in with a sling defeats the purpose of having a springy connection. If you're that worried about the rope you should be on doubles.

The PAS and similar are far superior to daisy chains if you are really determined to use that system.


thatguyat99


Oct 20, 2008, 1:18 PM
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Re: [hafilax] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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I use a cow's tail made from cordelette
that is girth hitched to my harness. This
is what I tie in with 1st.

Then once the anchor is built I back it
up with the rope using a clove (or cloves).
I have used slings before but
the most common for me is the
cordelette.


acorneau


Oct 20, 2008, 2:13 PM
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Re: what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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I use a Purcell Prussik for a tether because it's adjustable (like a daisy) with the benefit of being shock-absorbing as well (like the rope).

I'll also throw on a clove hitch when I'm settled.

Just found this interesting quote:
In reply to:
Research was done by Mike Gibbs of Rigging for Rescue in Ouray Colorado on the results of shock loading daisy chains and other commonly used positioning lanyards. In addition to being the owner of one of the premier rescue training organizations in the country (R4R), Mike is an active climbing guide as well as a member of the Ouray Mountain Rescue team. Mike performed dynamic testing on daisy chains as well as a number of positioning lanyards commonly used in climbing and rope rescue. The results of this testing were informative, to say the least. After reading this post, many of you may want to reconsider your choice in positioning lanyards.

Mike designed a drop test representative of what could take place in the field that would provide some indications as to the capabilities and/or limitations of positioning lanyards. A common example in canyoneering would be slipping from a stance when starting a rappel with the anchor at your feet resulting in dynamically loading your safety lanyard. The purpose was to examine the magnitude of peak forces as well as the integrity of the connections on certain commercially and user-created lanyards in a dynamic event. The drops were conducted with 80 kg and 100 kg mass simulating the weight of a climber or climber with a heavy pack and fall factors from 0.5 to 2.0. The surprise was how easily daisy chains and some other lanyards resulted in catastrophic failure on relatively short drops.

Test results were sobering at best. Particularly considering how many canyoneers still insist on using the daisy chain (almost 30% of poll responders) as their primary positioning lanyard. Daisy chains failed in short falls (FF 0.5-1.0) and slings made of Spectra/Dyneema webbing exhibited alarmingly high impact forces (>12kN) and catastrophic failure at surprisingly low fall factors. In canyoneering this could easily happen at any rap anchor below chest level. One slip and bang, you've dynamically loaded the anchor.

Nylon slings (not nylon daisy chains) and the Purcell Prusik came out on top as a result of their shock absorbing abilities. Typically, nylon slings held falls with reasonable impact forces (<10kN). The Purcell Prusik did best holding up to factor 2 falls with impact forces of less than 12kN. (FYI acceptable impact forces: CE 6kN, CSA/OSHA 8kN and UIAA 12kN).

Found the PDF here: http://www.marski.org/...gid=74&Itemid=26


(This post was edited by acorneau on Oct 20, 2008, 2:29 PM)


Alpinisto


Oct 21, 2008, 8:55 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Mostly rope. Clove first, pull some slack, then figure 8 for a backup.

Simple. Classic. No extra gear needed. What I do.

Obviously, this won't work for rapping, in which case I girth hitch two shoulder-length slings to my tie-in points, one to clip into the rappel anchor and the other to extend the rap device.


chossmonkey


Oct 21, 2008, 10:04 AM
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Clove to the anchor


zeke_sf


Oct 21, 2008, 10:36 AM
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Re: [climbingtrash] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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climbingtrash wrote:
angry wrote:
...Do not feel free to come up with your own cliches. Yours will suck. Just use mine, you'll feel better about it and won't make yourself look stupid by trying too hard.

Don't tell me what to do.

I agree. His post was pretty fucking mouse balls. Damnz! You best me yet again, Angry! [shitzpantsinrageface]


fresh


Oct 21, 2008, 10:53 AM
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Re: [full1346] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.


zeke_sf


Oct 21, 2008, 10:55 AM
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fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.


socalclimber


Oct 21, 2008, 2:48 PM
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Re: [acorneau] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
I use a Purcell Prussik for a tether because it's adjustable (like a daisy) with the benefit of being shock-absorbing as well (like the rope).

I'll also throw on a clove hitch when I'm settled.

Just found this interesting quote:
In reply to:
Research was done by Mike Gibbs of Rigging for Rescue in Ouray Colorado on the results of shock loading daisy chains and other commonly used positioning lanyards. In addition to being the owner of one of the premier rescue training organizations in the country (R4R), Mike is an active climbing guide as well as a member of the Ouray Mountain Rescue team. Mike performed dynamic testing on daisy chains as well as a number of positioning lanyards commonly used in climbing and rope rescue. The results of this testing were informative, to say the least. After reading this post, many of you may want to reconsider your choice in positioning lanyards.

Mike designed a drop test representative of what could take place in the field that would provide some indications as to the capabilities and/or limitations of positioning lanyards. A common example in canyoneering would be slipping from a stance when starting a rappel with the anchor at your feet resulting in dynamically loading your safety lanyard. The purpose was to examine the magnitude of peak forces as well as the integrity of the connections on certain commercially and user-created lanyards in a dynamic event. The drops were conducted with 80 kg and 100 kg mass simulating the weight of a climber or climber with a heavy pack and fall factors from 0.5 to 2.0. The surprise was how easily daisy chains and some other lanyards resulted in catastrophic failure on relatively short drops.

Test results were sobering at best. Particularly considering how many canyoneers still insist on using the daisy chain (almost 30% of poll responders) as their primary positioning lanyard. Daisy chains failed in short falls (FF 0.5-1.0) and slings made of Spectra/Dyneema webbing exhibited alarmingly high impact forces (>12kN) and catastrophic failure at surprisingly low fall factors. In canyoneering this could easily happen at any rap anchor below chest level. One slip and bang, you've dynamically loaded the anchor.

Nylon slings (not nylon daisy chains) and the Purcell Prusik came out on top as a result of their shock absorbing abilities. Typically, nylon slings held falls with reasonable impact forces (<10kN). The Purcell Prusik did best holding up to factor 2 falls with impact forces of less than 12kN. (FYI acceptable impact forces: CE 6kN, CSA/OSHA 8kN and UIAA 12kN).

Found the PDF here: http://www.marski.org/...gid=74&Itemid=26

SAR DORK ALERT, SAR DORK ALERT, SAR DORK ALERT! ALL HANDS ON DECK!

Oh christ. Now we have two of you on this site. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING TO CLIMBING TOPICS WHEN YOU CLEARLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

The Purcell system has it's place in technical rescues systems. And for good reasons. They are light, compact, and adjustable. They are great for edge personal especially. THEY SUCK FOR ASCENDING A FIX LINE. BUY SOME FUCKING ASCENDERS AND LEARN TO USE THEM.

As far as using them to tie into a belay while climbing, worthless. Learn to keep the systems simple. Unless you are doing a rope stretching picth that is going to use almost all your rope, the system I described previously works fine. Clove, slack, figure 8. It's simple, clean, adjustable, and most importantly, easy to inspect. Especially if you're tired.

I'm sorry for jumping down your throat, but I'm tired of non/newbie climbers on SAR posting drawings and explaining all the "physics" about things they clearly are not experienced at doing.

How do I know this? I worked SAR here in Josh for almost 5 years, and, GASP, I actually climb a bunch.

So, my advice, site back, watch, learn, and listen.


hafilax


Oct 21, 2008, 3:14 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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If you're going to get in a tizzy you might want to explain what you have against the Purcell Prusik after having said that it is light, compact and adjustable.

What is so dangerous about that system?


zeke_sf


Oct 21, 2008, 4:09 PM
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Re: [hafilax] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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hafilax wrote:
If you're going to get in a tizzy you might want to explain what you have against the Purcell Prusik after having said that it is light, compact and adjustable.

What is so dangerous about that system?

He didn't say it was dangerous, he said it was needlessly complex. That said, I don't know what the farg a purcell prusik is, nor do I care, nor do I think it will ever matter as long as there are a multitude of simple ways to secure my blorted ass to anchor. But to each his own.


acorneau


Oct 21, 2008, 4:09 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
SAR DORK ALERT, SAR DORK ALERT, SAR DORK ALERT! ALL HANDS ON DECK!

Oh christ. Now we have two of you on this site. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING TO CLIMBING TOPICS WHEN YOU CLEARLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

Sorry, pal, but I'm not a SAR anything, much less a dork. I clearly DO know what I'm talking about because I use a Purcell Prusik on a weekly basis and it's a GREAT personal tether. It has a lot of advantages over daisy chains, PAS/Chain Reactors and slings that a lot of people seem to favor.


In reply to:
THEY SUCK FOR ASCENDING A FIX LINE. BUY SOME FUCKING ASCENDERS AND LEARN TO USE THEM.

I NEVER said I would use them for ascending a rope. No one else said they use them for ascending a rope. This thread is about personal tethering to anchors, so what the hell are you talking about?!?

In reply to:
I'm sorry for jumping down your throat, but I'm tired of non/newbie climbers on SAR posting drawings and explaining all the "physics" about things they clearly are not experienced at doing.

Wrong again, I'm a climber and I did not try to "explain physics" to anyone, just quoted what someone else said.

In reply to:
So, my advice, site back, watch, learn, and listen.

And my advice to you is to STFU when you don't know who you're talking to or when you try to spout your OPINION as fact, Ass.


irregularpanda


Oct 21, 2008, 4:34 PM
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zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.

Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.


socalclimber


Oct 21, 2008, 5:14 PM
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I'm not in any "tizzy", I never said that purcells were dangerous. I said that they are a system and/or method largely used in rescue work.

Fine, you're not a SAR Dork, but I was correct, you apparently don't know what you're talking about, especially since you didn't even know this.


socalclimber


Oct 21, 2008, 5:15 PM
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irregularpanda wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.

Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.

You really might want to emphasize that this should be followed by some slack and a figure 8 as a backup.

Just for clarity.


hafilax


Oct 21, 2008, 5:28 PM
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Bolded text: check
excessive capitalization: check
calling someone out: check

Looks like a tizzy to me.

I figured that going through the effort the post meant you had a strong dislike for the Purcell Prusik. The statement that they were overly complex and that the clove hitch 8 combo is easier to check when tired led me to believe that you felt it was dangerous. That is why I asked the question?

So you have nothing against Purcell Prusiks, just the people that use them.


irregularpanda


Oct 21, 2008, 6:06 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.

Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.

You really might want to emphasize that this should be followed by some slack and a figure 8 as a backup.

Just for clarity.

I back it up with the purcell prussik on occasion, just so I can annoy erkel the anti-SAR-nazi.


socalclimber


Oct 21, 2008, 6:13 PM
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hafilax wrote:
Bolded text: check
excessive capitalization: check
calling someone out: check

Looks like a tizzy to me.

I figured that going through the effort the post meant you had a strong dislike for the Purcell Prusik. The statement that they were overly complex and that the clove hitch 8 combo is easier to check when tired led me to believe that you felt it was dangerous. That is why I asked the question?

So you have nothing against Purcell Prusiks, just the people that use them.

Look. I have nothing against the people who use them. I have nothing against the system itself. What I have a serious problem with are people who suggest systems they clearly know nothing about.

Just like I have a serious problem with those who work technical rescue but know next to nothing about climbing and yet insist on preaching about climbing.

Go spend a few years working the SAR scene, you'll see what I'm talking about.

At least I've done that.


socalclimber


Oct 21, 2008, 6:15 PM
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Re: [irregularpanda] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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irregularpanda wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.

Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.

You really might want to emphasize that this should be followed by some slack and a figure 8 as a backup.

Just for clarity.

I back it up with the purcell prussik on occasion, just so I can annoy erkel the anti-SAR-nazi.

LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

Hey, wait a minute, I think I've just been insulted....

I DON'T WHERE GLASSES, AND I'M NOT BLACK.

So thereTongue


irregularpanda


Oct 21, 2008, 6:56 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.

Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.

You really might want to emphasize that this should be followed by some slack and a figure 8 as a backup.

Just for clarity.

I back it up with the purcell prussik on occasion, just so I can annoy erkel the anti-SAR-nazi.

LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

Hey, wait a minute, I think I've just been insulted....

I DON'T WHERE GLASSES, AND I'M NOT BLACK.

So thereTongue

I just couldn't think of anything better than dingleberry, so I called you erkel the anti sar nazi...................

But seriously, I use the purcell and the clove, except in situations where I just use the clove. Stupid, yes. Effective, Yes. Simple, Yes.

I trust only a clove sometimes.


socalclimber


Oct 21, 2008, 7:23 PM
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Re: [irregularpanda] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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irregularpanda wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.

Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.

You really might want to emphasize that this should be followed by some slack and a figure 8 as a backup.

Just for clarity.

I back it up with the purcell prussik on occasion, just so I can annoy erkel the anti-SAR-nazi.

LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

Hey, wait a minute, I think I've just been insulted....

I DON'T WHERE GLASSES, AND I'M NOT BLACK.

So thereTongue

I just couldn't think of anything better than dingleberry, so I called you erkel the anti sar nazi...................

But seriously, I use the purcell and the clove, except in situations where I just use the clove. Stupid, yes. Effective, Yes. Simple, Yes.

I trust only a clove sometimes.

I honestly don't think this is a great system. I really feel that people (myself included) need to work with the gear they have with them, not a bunch of 'extras'.

THE PURCELL IS NOT DANGEROUS. What's dangerous is adding 'fluff' you do not need. You are adding fluff to your system when you do not need it. You have a rope, you have an anchor, you have biners. PLEASE TELL ME, WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED to safely attach yourself to the system.

The answer:

NOTHING. You already have what you need. Now, on long multipitch climbs should you carry a prussic, or extra slings to rig and escape or ascend a system, sure.

Second, I don't hate SAR, nor am I against SAR, what I'm against is the general SAR mentality that they know things they clearly don't.

It's there self abosrbed sense of self importance that is rampant thru out the SAR community that I cannot stand.

Just to be clear.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 21, 2008, 7:27 PM)


porkchop_express


Oct 21, 2008, 9:02 PM
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Re: [climbingtrash] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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I use a PAS girth hitched around both contact points of the harness. I usually throw a clove hitch on as well to back it up because I tend to be a little paranoid and it takes but a second to get that much extra peace of mind.


jermeng


Oct 21, 2008, 10:27 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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Hey Socal & Acorn,
Just to clarify, the purcell prusik that Acorn is suggesting is not the purcell system used to ascend a rope. This purcell is a pretty nifty safety tether. I'm rather certain that SAR teams would not use this system as it's potential to slip with a dramatic increase in the load; also because most people outside of cavers/canyoners have never seen it. This slippage is one reason that I will always back up my purcell when belaying; but my primary anchor is almost always a clove on that beefy dynamic rope that I'm already attached to.

Check out this discussion which also shows a diagram of the Purcell that Acorn is describing: http://www.canyoneering.net/...showthread.php?t=700. The graphic is about 7 posts down.

I personally perfer it to any other safety tether setup that I've seen/used, with the exception of the clove. Its adjustability is fantastic when transitioning from anchor to rappel, as it will transfer your weight onto rappel for you. It also seems to surpass most other systems in individual testings.

Give it a look, see what you think.

-Jeremy


socalclimber


Oct 22, 2008, 3:25 AM
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Re: [jermeng] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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Believe it or not, some SAR teams do indeed use a purcell system for ascending. For rappeling I can certainly see how it would come in handy. My whole point is anchoring in to a belay while climbing. When I was on SAR we used them in several capacities. The most common was for the edge attendants, great way to adjust your position. Purcells are fine, I just don't understand why people insist on dragging all this stuff around with them when they have a perfectly good tool with them, the rope.


hafilax


Oct 22, 2008, 11:28 AM
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Now I get your point. Thanks for clarifying.

FWIW I hate having extra stuff hitched at my crotch when free climbing and generally anchor with a clove hitch or an 8 but rarely both.


binrat


Oct 22, 2008, 12:37 PM
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For me, clove and a (cringe) purcell prussik. I always have a purcell around when I climb as well as about 5 metres of 7 mm static.

binrat


socalclimber


Oct 22, 2008, 7:44 PM
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Hey look, do what ya need to do, I guess what I am ultimately saying is learn how to use the tools you have rather than adding things you probably don't need.

I mean really, in something as dangerous as climbing, do you really want to be Tim Taylor The Tool Man and add more power to a perfectly functional proven tool????

Not me.


binrat


Oct 23, 2008, 5:42 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
Hey look, do what ya need to do, I guess what I am ultimately saying is learn how to use the tools you have rather than adding things you probably don't need.

I mean really, in something as dangerous as climbing, do you really want to be Tim Taylor The Tool Man and add more power to a perfectly functional proven tool????

Not me.

When I started to lead trad, I have always had two connections points at the belay stance. Over kill maybe, using the rope always as first connected point and the last. I don't like daisy chains for a teather and I use the purcell for sport so what the hell. Thats all.

binrat


socalclimber


Oct 23, 2008, 6:26 AM
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Ah, that makes things a little more clearer. I guess one of the things that really bothers me is that I am seeing more and more people at the crags dragging all this crap along with them. One guy in particular had one of those Metolius personal anchoring systems. I asked nicely about it, then I inquired why he didn't just the rope. He didn't know how. I showed him the process and also showed him and his partner how to tie in with a double 8. They were nice guys and offered me a rope on their route.

It just seems people these days are relying gear and toys rather than knowledge.

Scarry.

P.S. Note to self to send a PM to acorn and apologize for pissing in his cheerios.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 23, 2008, 6:28 AM)


fresh


Oct 23, 2008, 10:00 AM
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irregularpanda wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.

Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.
I think I've been insulted but I can't tell?

why do you guys back up the clove hitch? seems like extra clutter.


zeke_sf


Oct 23, 2008, 12:34 PM
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fresh wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.

Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.
I think I've been insulted but I can't tell?

why do you guys back up the clove hitch? seems like extra clutter.
I don't know what Casper was talking about, but I was just referencing an old SNL clip.

I usually back up my clove hitches cuz I'm a big steaming plate of pussy.


altelis


Oct 23, 2008, 3:54 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.
You really might want to emphasize that this should be followed by some slack and a figure 8 as a backup.

Just for clarity.

out of curiosity- why the back up to the clove?


climbingtrash


Oct 23, 2008, 6:56 PM
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altelis wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.
You really might want to emphasize that this should be followed by some slack and a figure 8 as a backup.

Just for clarity.

out of curiosity- why the back up to the clove?

Redundancy. Cool


austin.timm


Oct 23, 2008, 10:04 PM
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Thread


fresh


Oct 24, 2008, 6:10 AM
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zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

Yeah, what Squeezebox said.

Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.
I think I've been insulted but I can't tell?

why do you guys back up the clove hitch? seems like extra clutter.
I don't know what Casper was talking about, but I was just referencing an old SNL clip.

I usually back up my clove hitches cuz I'm a big steaming plate of pussy.
I guessed that casper was calling you a turd, but the SNL thing went over my head so what do I know Wink

I go a step further, I don't back my clove up because I'm a big steaming plate of pussy about being a big steaming plate of pussy.


chrisJoosse


Jun 21, 2009, 8:07 AM
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I don't use a daisy- don't own one, but I've got something like it- instead of a single loop connected by bar tacks I have a bunch of full-strength dyneema loops (made from BW Titan runner material) connected together- serves a similar function as the daisy in that it's length-adjustable, without the potential for bar-tack blowout. http://www.rockclimbingtools.com/...CHAIN-p/bw763949.htm

This and slings are a poor substitute for clipping a clove or a figure-8 in with the rope, but are great (and sometimes situationally useful) ways to be redundant- usually I have two points of connection to the rock at any given time I'm not on belay, simply because I'm unabashed in my paranoia and more gear is cheap.


(This post was edited by chrisJoosse on Jun 30, 2009, 6:33 PM)


desertdude420


Jun 21, 2009, 8:23 AM
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I always use the rope to anchor to any belay. A figure 8 should always be used somewhere in the anchor! I think daisies at belays came from indoor rock gyms

-Daisies are made for body weight only = not bomber.
-Clove hitches will slip under heavy loads = not bomber.
-Figure 8 tied from my harness directly to the power point = way bomber.


billcoe_


Jun 21, 2009, 9:45 PM
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clove hitch on the rope. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.

I'm with irregularpanda, zeke, fresh, climbingtrash and Cracklover. All this talk of cordalettes, web-o-lettes and cluster-fuck-o-lettes had me thinking I was the only one.... BUT i CAN SEE THAT I'M HOME MY BROTHERS!!!

I've found that setting a Cordalette with a master point (or 2) when guiding larger groups on multipitch was the schizz, but it's an added unnecessary complexity that is not any safer than the rope for a party of 2 swapping leads. I use a daisy on occasion as well, but never as a belay anchor- only if it's a party of 3 or long complex raps with multiple people.


zeke_sf


Jun 22, 2009, 12:01 AM
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Rock on, Brother Bill! Yes, it is true that clove hitches continue to rule supreme.


mikebee


Jun 23, 2009, 5:14 AM
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In reply to:
Daisies are made for body weight only = not bomber.

Yep.

In reply to:
Figure 8 tied from my harness directly to the power point = way bomber

Yep. But a pain in the bum to adjust once tied.

In reply to:
Clove hitches will slip under heavy loads = not bomber

Really? Any studies to back this up?
I've only read/heard of studies that have shown that a clove hitch can slip under high loads when tied with a static rope. Apparently dynamic ropes cause the hitch to behave differently and hold better.

Also, IIRC, the forces that causes the clove to slip were substantially higher than any of my tie-ins have ever been subjected to, 8kN or more, I think.

The only time I can envisage a tie in being subjected to forces that high would be catching a factor-2, and I daresay that in that situation, any slipping, tightening or other energy absorbing action would actually be a benefit, rather than a negative thing. Bring on the clove hitch tie in, I reckon.


acorneau


Jun 23, 2009, 7:41 AM
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In reply to:
Clove hitches will slip under heavy loads = not bomber

Came across this:

In reply to:
The clove was then pull tested to failure. No slip occurred as it was pulled to higher loads. Ultimately, even when pulled to failure, the clove hitch did not allow rope to slide through. The rope broke at the clove hitch at 2700 pounds.

Quoted from here: Myth #4 (about half way down the page) http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html

Also check out Myth #6.


[edit for spelling and clarity]


(This post was edited by acorneau on Jun 23, 2009, 7:45 AM)


hafilax


Jun 23, 2009, 10:10 AM
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The question of clove hitches slipping came from some drop tests IIRC. I think that if the clove hitch was on the falling weight end it slipped and the weight fell off. If it was tied at the anchor end it held. I can't recall any real explanations about why.

I typically use a clove hitch but if there was a real possibility of a serious lead fall onto the anchor I might choose to use an 8.


billcoe_


Jun 23, 2009, 11:05 AM
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acorneau wrote:
Also check out Myth #6.

Great find Acorneau! I'm copying and pasting myth #6 here in it's entirety for the 19 people (so far) who use a daisy chain as a belay anchor. Short version, DO NOT USE A DAISY CHAIN FOR A BELAY ANCHOR.


"Myth 6: It's a good idea to use daisy chains for attaching to an anchor

Over years of climbing, we have seen thousands of climbers using a daisy chain (or a similar "personal anchor system") to clip into anchors on multipitch climbs. A daisy chain is usually made from nylon and/or spectra and is around four feet long.

Daisy chains have limited usefulness if you are not planning to aid climb. They are bulky and are a poor substitute for attaching to the anchor with your ROPE using a clove hitch.

Why?

1) The rope's there anyway. Use of a daisy chain adds unnecessary bulk to the items you carry on route.

2) The rope is much more adjustable. A clove hitch can be adjusted seamlessly to any length, while most daisy chains are limited to 44 inches. Imagine your frustration at a "hanging" belay if there is a comfortable stance four feet below you.

3) The rope is much more resistant to being cut.

4) Shortening the daisy chain has its own inherent risks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58qWRr4LiBY

5) The rope is better able to absorb shock loads than a daisy chain. Some people argue that this is incorrect over a short length of rope. We decided to test this to find out.
Jeff Fassett and I conducted a simple test using a dynamometer attached to a bolted anchor. In the first part of the test, I attached to the anchor using a daisy chain so that i hung freely two feet below it. With a backup rope in place, i pulled myself up a few inches and let go so that I fell statically on to the anchor. The force on the anchor was shocking - the dynamometer measured a peak force of 900 pounds on the first drop. I subsequently took slightly further falls, and found that the force on the anchor was over 2,000 pounds when falling just one foot. I stopped at this point simply due to pain.

Similar tests conducted at BlueWater found that a two foot fall (with a test weight) caused a two-foot sling to completely fail. This is consistant with the simple data we obtained; in sum, it is likely that falling two feet statically on to a daisy chain will cause (at the minimum) a failure of that loop. If you happened to be clipped into the last loop, it will fail completely.

On a personal note, I can confirm that if you did not cause the daisy chain to fail, you would almost certainly sustain injury.

The story changes significantly if you are attached to the anchor with a climbing rope and a clove hitch. Jeff and I repeated the test: this time, however, I was attached to the anchor with my climbing rope tied at two feet long (the same length of daisy chain used above). I immediately noticed that short, static falls on the anchor were far less jolting, and the dynamometer confirmed my suspicions. When falling one foot on the climbing rope, the force was about 400 pounds. On subsequent, longer falls, we found that even falling two feet (the full length of the rope I had tied) the force on the anchor was only 1,000 pounds.

This indicates that a short length of climbing rope is far better at absorbing shock loads than an equal length of static daisy chain."


billcoe_


Jun 23, 2009, 11:08 AM
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And before someone starts in critizing the results, the start of the myths says this:

" The Climbing Mythbusters
A quick explanation


There's a lot of inaccurate beliefs in the climbing world. Is hardware ruined after dropping it? Will a clove hitch slip? Will the Euro Death Knot invert during a rappel? How often do you accept what you hear without checking to see if the source is reliable?

This page is dedicated to getting things straight. Most of what you'll read there is based on actual pull tests conducted by myself and Jeff Fassett, an AMGA Certified Rock Instructor here in Tucson. In other cases, we've directly contacted individuals who have conducted controlled tests themselves.

How am I qualified to bust these myths? Judge for yourself. A lot of the time I've done research on what super-seasoned, intelligent climbers have tested themselves. As for my credentials: I'm an AMGA Certified Rock Instructor, I have multiple degrees involving research, thousands of days in the field, a really good head on my shoulders, and lots of training from recognized experts.

Keep in mind a few things:
I've edited most of the anecdotes to keep them succinct. It's only necessary here to present the facts, not lengthy periodical-like papers. But don't assume that hasn't crossed my mind. If you're questioning what you read below, good. That's the point. Think critically and test things yourself in a safe environment. Nothing is better for building your confidence than your own experience.
If you'd like, submit your questions/suggestions/myths via email by clicking the contact link above. We'll see if we can test it out for you."


brawa


Jun 23, 2009, 1:10 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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Looks like lots of good info from the Climbing Mythbusters.

Personally, I like to clove in with the rope and use my PAS as a backup (i.e. the rope would have to break or stretch significantly before the PAS takes on weight). In my limited multipitch experience, I haven't run into a situation where this wasn't possible.

The way I see it, why not add some redundancy when possible?


billcoe_


Jun 29, 2009, 1:14 PM
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brawa wrote:
Looks like lots of good info from the Climbing Mythbusters.

Personally, I like to clove in with the rope and use my PAS as a backup (i.e. the rope would have to break or stretch significantly before the PAS takes on weight). In my limited multipitch experience, I haven't run into a situation where this wasn't possible.

The way I see it, why not add some redundancy when possible?

Because it slows you down, increases the clusterfriggake, and is usually unnecessary. If you climb with 2 ropes I'll sit down. But would you not say that the biggest issue with a rope failure would be a long lead fall? Bet you have a single rope there? That is the biggest potential issue and it's rare for a single rope to ever fail. I don't recall ever hearing of a rope fail at the belay anytime or anyplace.

See Dingus's comments on this thread about being slowed down and Majids snippets of comments copied below about clusterf*cking (CF) the belay for those points being flushed out some more. That said, if you were really wedded to figure 8s, I could see tossing a figure 8 fast then using the pas to get the exact length so that your belay set up didn't have any slack in it........but clove hitches are so fast to adjust you don't really gain if you are already using one.

No biggy in either case, I'm sure it works OK for you, but think it over....are you really gaining when these 2 points are added in?
_______________________________________________

majid_sabet wrote:
I always have some kind of story about climbers and CF anchor so, 5-6 years ago, party of three very experienced climbers head up to do multi pitch climb in yosemite. Up on pitch 3 anchor, lead climber, belays the second and waits for the third member to take his turn. once second reaches the anchor, she becomes ready to lead the next pitch while leader belayes the third. once third reaches the anchor, leader disconnects the link for the second so she could lead but then third drops several hunderd meters to his death.

Now, somehow both leader and the second lost their memory ( as usual) and could not recall what went wrong but they confirmed that the leader did anchor the third and third did anchor himself with a sling as well but third was found at the base with sling attach to his harness with a biner at the end of it.

.............you see, CF anchor with few people on the ledge is a perfect recipe for climbing disaster.

....climbers take a lot of assumption and in fact they climb base on thinking that the other guy who leads or setups anchor knows his job and they probably do to some extend but managing a belay station with CF ropes, tie and untying knots, sling ,anchor, haul-bag.....etc is a job by itself and you need to have a clear mind to run that station. in addition to that, you must have a set of safety list and and follow up on it every time and there are no shortcuts. So when a leader reaches a anchor, he has to anchor himself with at least one ( in many times, clove hitch or f8) and most likely add the second piece of attachment directly to harness and this should be the standard for anyone else who follows.

By having two piece of attachment, if one becomes DC, at least you got the backup however, one you are only connected to one piece and that becomes DC, you end up at the base and this had happened too many times.. ...


brawa


Jun 29, 2009, 2:59 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] What do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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Billcoe,

I completely agree with your logic and the facts I've seen elsewhere about single dynamic rope failure as well as the pros of simplicity and speed. I have a few points that help explain, but probably not justify, my position:
-I have limited multipitch experience and as such prefer to be on the more redundant/paranoid side of things until I get more mileage.
-I tend to have a pseudo-paranoid attitude towards rock protection (trad and fixed) and the extra PAS helps me calm that (hey, we all have things we need to work on).

Question: In the quote from majid you supplied, he (and therefore you) seems to support an extra attachment point in case one gets disconnected. Is this right, or am I missing something? Are you saying a second attachment (single rope) is always unnecessary or unnecessary except on a CF belay with multiple people?


bill413


Jun 29, 2009, 4:05 PM
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Re: [brawa] What do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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brawa - My feeling is that if I'm attached with the rope, I don't need anything else (unless it's convenient to put me at the right spot). After all, I'm already trusting that rope totally most of the time. The more things you have tied into the anchors, the greater the chance of screwing things up, so keep your attachments simple.

If you have you into the anchor, and your partner into the anchor, once each, it is generally easy to see which knot belongs to which of you (especially if each of you is on your own biner(s)). If you both have fifty-leben points of attachment, it gets really hard to figure out who's knot you're untying. Bad things can happen.

I understand the head feeling of looking at the one rope to the anchor....it's like the first few times on a hanging belay...it took a bit to not be quietly freaking out as I hung there.


(This post was edited by bill413 on Jun 29, 2009, 4:06 PM)


billcoe_


Jun 30, 2009, 9:59 PM
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My thoughts are what the other Bill said just above me. I actually think you have a good attitude to carry you through and I'd tie in with you any day, so I wouldn't worry about this specifically too much. Having a healthy suspicion that this shit will actually work will help you think through all kinds of things you will encounter at some point. In re-reading Majids posts (sometimes that's a difficult thing:-) His last sentence, as you say, does seem to support you using a backup ....I could have *cough* read it better * cough * before trying to make a different point! I was thinking of what I believe his main point was, which is to try and make things simple and easy to see and use, and stick with that so that it becomes a repetitions and easy to remember second nature. ie, and NOT a CF.

As far as what I really do....I do make use of a daisy at times just like you do. It will really help make any 3 person team change overs safer and faster, and hanging belays, especially on aid where a belay can last much longer than on free, and might be 8 hours long - much more comfortable as you can change positions and shorten/lengthen the daisy.

Regards!


desertwanderer81


Jul 1, 2009, 5:15 PM
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Re: [superory] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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superory wrote:
i always clip my P.A.S. right onto one of the bolts or pieces making the anchor and then clove the rope in to the powerpoint. might be overkill but it dosnt take that long and its backed up and freakin truck.

I don't know...... clipping your PAS into pro could lead to shock loading the pieces if your clove hitched rope isn't shorter than the pieces. Also, it could lead to weird torque in your system and cause your pieces to walk.

Not to mention that it adds time. But hey! If it makes you feel safer!!


desertwanderer81


Jul 1, 2009, 5:21 PM
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Re: [desertdude420] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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desertdude420 wrote:
I always use the rope to anchor to any belay. A figure 8 should always be used somewhere in the anchor! I think daisies at belays came from indoor rock gyms

-Daisies are made for body weight only = not bomber.
-Clove hitches will slip under heavy loads = not bomber./
-Figure 8 tied from my harness directly to the power point = way bomber.

Huh? How do you figure?


superory


Jul 1, 2009, 7:45 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
superory wrote:
i always clip my P.A.S. right onto one of the bolts or pieces making the anchor and then clove the rope in to the powerpoint. might be overkill but it dosnt take that long and its backed up and freakin truck.

I don't know...... clipping your PAS into pro could lead to shock loading the pieces if your clove hitched rope isn't shorter than the pieces. Also, it could lead to weird torque in your system and cause your pieces to walk.

Not to mention that it adds time. But hey! If it makes you feel safer!!

If the cloved in rope is longer than the PAS and i go for a ride it shouldnt put failure levels of stress on the piece right? i understand that the PAS is static so there is more force on the system in a fall but the fall would only be a foot tops and im not climbing above my anchors so a factor 2 is outta the question. and if the piece does blow im backed up by the other one or two pieces that im tied into with the rope which works better if my anchor is self equalizing rather than a cordalette setup where if one piece blows the other two arms might be funky lenghts. but either way there are still several levels of backedupness in the system.

And how long does it really take to clip and lock a biner???


desertwanderer81


Jul 1, 2009, 9:45 PM
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Re: [superory] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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superory wrote:
desertwanderer81 wrote:
superory wrote:
i always clip my P.A.S. right onto one of the bolts or pieces making the anchor and then clove the rope in to the powerpoint. might be overkill but it dosnt take that long and its backed up and freakin truck.

I don't know...... clipping your PAS into pro could lead to shock loading the pieces if your clove hitched rope isn't shorter than the pieces. Also, it could lead to weird torque in your system and cause your pieces to walk.

Not to mention that it adds time. But hey! If it makes you feel safer!!

If the cloved in rope is longer than the PAS and i go for a ride it shouldnt put failure levels of stress on the piece right? i understand that the PAS is static so there is more force on the system in a fall but the fall would only be a foot tops and im not climbing above my anchors so a factor 2 is outta the question. and if the piece does blow im backed up by the other one or two pieces that im tied into with the rope which works better if my anchor is self equalizing rather than a cordalette setup where if one piece blows the other two arms might be funky lenghts. but either way there are still several levels of backedupness in the system.

And how long does it really take to clip and lock a biner???

PAS's have in the past blown out trad pieces while on belay.

If your PAS is shorter than your rope on belay, you essentially have no rope. None. And don't forget, it sounds like you're on indivisual pieces with your PAS too, so you would be blowing them out indivisually rather than your whole anchor.

Look, I'm not saying it's a death trap. While uncomfortable, it will probably be fine were you to say fall off a hanging belay a foot or so. As a whole though, the system becomes less safe. It might feel more redundant, but in actuality, it becomes less so. Your clove hitch on a locker on your master point is as bomber as it comes.


norushnomore


Jul 2, 2009, 2:48 AM
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Re: [desertwanderer81] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
superory wrote:
PAS's have in the past blown out trad pieces while on belay.

Can you back this statement up?

Speaking of PAS, when using it as a part of my anchor I prefer to clip two pieces into it and rope into 3rd with longest reach but set it tighter then PAS.


desertwanderer81


Jul 2, 2009, 5:50 AM
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I don't have the time to look now, but I specifically remember one instance about a year back where exactly this happened and both climbers ended up dead.

Oh and just a FYI, F2 falls etc do not work the same way for PAS's as they do rope falls. I'll have to look for the source when I have time, but it's something along the lines of a 2 foot PAS fall will put more force on an anchor than any rope fall. I could be wrong on that last one but I think that's what the numbers said. Wouldn't surpise me though. There is very little give in a PAS compared to a dynamic climbing rope.

So anyhow, with your system, you don't have the pro equalised? Or am I just reading it wrong. Why not just equalise your system and tie into that master point with your rope?


patto


Jul 2, 2009, 6:12 AM
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Re: [desertwanderer81] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
I don't have the time to look now, but I specifically remember one instance about a year back where exactly this happened and both climbers ended up dead.

Oh and just a FYI, F2 falls etc do not work the same way for PAS's as they do rope falls. I'll have to look for the source when I have time, but it's something along the lines of a 2 foot PAS fall will put more force on an anchor than any rope fall. I could be wrong on that last one but I think that's what the numbers said. Wouldn't surpise me though. There is very little give in a PAS compared to a dynamic climbing rope.

So anyhow, with your system, you don't have the pro equalised? Or am I just reading it wrong. Why not just equalise your system and tie into that master point with your rope?

F2 most do certainly work in a similar way to roped falls. Its basically the same except with a stiffer spring. A large F2 onto static cord like a PAS could easily generate 30+kN ie stuff would break including the climber. Fortunately for smaller F2 falls body, harness and anchor stretch all plays a role in reducing the force.

Still if your not careful and manage to fall on static cord you are in trouble.

That said I sometimes use static slings as a safety. Though my usual approach is a clove hitch on my climbing rope.


desertwanderer81


Jul 2, 2009, 6:19 AM
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Re: [patto] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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You're right Patto..... I was explaining myself poorly.

I should have just said that small PAS falls, reguardless of their nature, can often put more stress on an anchor than a F2 roped fall.

Fair enough?


dingus


Jul 3, 2009, 4:42 AM
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Re: [desertwanderer81] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with? [In reply to]
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While you are explaining maybe you can explain why you feel compelled to weigh in on every muthafuggin gear thread and carry on discussions like you actually know from personal experience? The whole rap from a sport anchor thing really illustrated the shortcomings of your book and interdweeb grad school. Now you're lecturing about static anchor systems like a freakin expert...

Splain that...? Where do you get off with the lectures there Professor?

DMT


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