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RyanW2050
Dec 24, 2008, 3:54 PM
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I gym climb 3 days a week (Tue/Thu/Sat) and i'm planning on getting a nice road bike to ride to work on offdays. (6 miles each way)
My question is this: Is riding 12 miles on my offdays going to allow proper recovery?
(This post was edited by RyanW2050 on Dec 31, 2008, 10:45 PM)
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churningindawake
Dec 24, 2008, 4:18 PM
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RyanW2050 wrote: I gym climb 3 days a week (Tue/Thu/Sat) and i'm planning on getting a nice road bike to ride to work on offdays. (6 miles each way) My question is this: Is riding 12 miles on my offdays going to allow proper recovery?
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jakedatc
Dec 24, 2008, 4:51 PM
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Definitely.. it also makes approaches easier with the increased cardio and leg workout.
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churningindawake
Dec 24, 2008, 4:53 PM
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jakedatc wrote: Definitely.. it also makes approaches easier with the increased cardio and leg workout.
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hopperhopper
Dec 24, 2008, 5:48 PM
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It will allow most of the muscles you fatigue while climbing to rest, but I've always been a proponent of true rest days (little or no activity). Whatever energy you're expending on the bike is energy not used to repair muscles.
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abe_ascends
Dec 24, 2008, 5:49 PM
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RyanW2050 wrote: I gym climb 3 days a week (Tue/Thu/Sat) and i'm planning on getting a nice road bike to ride to work on offdays. (6 miles each way) My question is this: Is riding 12 miles on my offdays going to allow proper recovery?
Absolutely. Your "off" days should be days of active rest, not so much of the sitting on the couch. Bicycle rides will increase blood flow throughout the body and thus facilitate a proper recovery.
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jman
Dec 24, 2008, 5:53 PM
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Should be okay. My climbing rest days are 10 to 15 mile long run days. IMO the extra cardio will probably help with climbing cause I noticed I started to climbing a lot stronger when I lost some weight and increased my aerobic strength.
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boracus
Dec 25, 2008, 5:15 PM
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R-
If you're not used to the riding you may notice a little decrease in your gym session intensity at first but after a few weeks the 12miles shouldn't be much of a work load for you.
From personal experience I would suggest fiddling w/ your position on the bike, at least w/ respect to your upper body. This may not be an issue for you at all but your arms and shoulders do function at least partially as shock absorbers since you're not in a completely upright position. Sometimes the static position of being on the bike can be a bitch after climbing the day before, though 12miles goes pretty fast and you may not notice anything from it. Just throwing it out there.
Enjoy the increased fitness, it's nice to have the extra cardio so that you're not quite so tapped when you have to hike an hour in to get to the crag.
cheers, BA
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thatguyat99
Dec 25, 2008, 7:02 PM
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Just to add...
If you don't sprint to work
then a leisurely pace on the bike
should help with keeping things loose
on those days. Plus commuting on a bike
just sets the pace for a good day. It's a big
difference stress wise.
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aerili
Dec 26, 2008, 7:39 PM
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RyanW2050 wrote: I gym climb 3 days a week (Tue/Thu/Sat) and i'm planning on getting a nice road bike to ride to work on offdays. (6 miles each way) My question is this: Is riding 12 miles on my offdays going to allow proper recovery?
So exactly how many off days will this constitute? This is important to know.
It also kind of depends on what your primary physical goals are. If you are gym climbing, I assume that strength gains and anaerobic endurance are important to you, probably more so than any aerobic endurance goals. If one is more important to you than another, which one? I assume climbing because you are asking on a climbing forum.
I would say it's possible if you are climbing and riding 6 days per week combined, you are doing too much and this could possibly impede recovery. Your upper body does do some work while riding, so you may notice some fatigue esp. in the stabilizers of the shoulder girdle (which you do use in climbing too).
Also, however, you may be able to work up to this volume of both eventually and have no real recovery concerns, but actually I would say you should try riding and climbing on some of the same days and have complete rest days on the other days.
"Interestingly, when aerobic endurance and strength training are performed on the same day there did not appear to be any detrimental effects on the ability of the subjects to increase their strength or aerobic capacity. Although the daily training volume may be greater in reduced weekly training frequencies, the rest between each exercise session may be sufficient to allow complete recovery." --Jay Hoffman, PhD, "Concurrent Training (Part I)," National Strength and Conditioning Assoc.
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RyanW2050
Dec 26, 2008, 8:58 PM
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On paper, the idea is to ride to work on M/W/F, climb on Tu/Th/Sat leaving Sunday free for a longer ride or complete rest. Realistically, i'll sleep in or drive due to weather some days, so an average of 2 days per week commuting is reasonable.
In response to what is more important, climbing definitely is. I was actually hoping that the cardio would help me a little on sport climbs.
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jakedatc
Dec 26, 2008, 10:07 PM
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^^^ exactly.. for normal riding i don't bother going out unless it's over 20mi
it takes me 8-10mi just to get warmed up.
I don't believe the arm use on the bike is detrimental to either recovery or prior to the next gym session.. It's road riding.. it's not like you're pounding over stuff like mtn biking.
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aerili
Dec 26, 2008, 11:18 PM
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Got it. If it works in your climbing day schedule, why don't you try actually doing your work rides on the same days as you climb, with the exception of maybe riding one extra day to work (when you feel like it)? Give it 3 weeks or so to see how you progress and feel. I used to ride 16 miles (8 each way) to and from work sometimes, and even though I was far from "terrible, awful, near death fitness," the commute was certainly factored into how else I trained those weeks.
Everyone responds to training stimulus differently, so what angry and jake don't see is that I am offering advice based on a middle road for you considering that I don't know your age, general aerobic fitness level, body comp, whether your commute route is flat or not, etc. So I'm viewing you as a probable mostly anaerobically fit person who's endurance may not be that great. It's true you may find riding 12 miles a day feels like "nothing," but I've trained other anaerobically fit people who find similar aerobic workouts moderately effortful (at least for a while); thus, this does impact their overall workload for the week.
More than one study has found that 6 days a week of alternating strength and aerobic training can negatively impact the strength (which is why I wanted to clarify how many "off" days you would add). Hence my suggestion to combine your training on the same days if you can--since this was found to be more successful for maintaining strength (and endurance was unaffected). You may be perfectly fine one way or the other, my advice is just being conservative wrt recovery for you.
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ryanb
Dec 26, 2008, 11:50 PM
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Just listen to your body and rest when you need to. When there isn't snow on the ground I generally bike commute 10 miles and then bike to the gym after. (It beats having to find parking at my gym on a busy night).
Also, if you aren't actually going to be road racing, look into getting a cyclocross bike for commuting. They offer the same geometry/layout/wheel size of a proper road bike but have better brakes and room to mount fenders and thicker or more aggressive tires.
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scotchie
Dec 27, 2008, 12:43 AM
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I used to ride to work ~ 10 miles per day about 4 days per week, gym climb 2x/week, lift weights 2x/week, and go mountain biking 1x/week, and I didn't notice any less performance because of the commute. I'd say I was in good but not fantastic shape. I made some pretty good gains in my gym climbing during that time (5.8 to 5.10). This is for light to moderate pace on flat roads with breaks at stoplights.
Biking to work is a lot of fun, and it feels great. On the downside, there are serious safety concerns with riding bikes in most cities, plus some lack of freedom to make impromptu plans.
I'd say just bike to work when it's convenient, regardless of whether you are climbing or not. Combining your biking and climbing days will give you the better recovery, but you aren't talking about biking enough to need a lot of it.
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jakedatc
Dec 27, 2008, 12:55 AM
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I dunno about that Ryan.. you can fit fenders on just about any bike.. even if you have to do what i did and use Race blades that clip on and make some extensions to keep you drier.
how do cyclocross bikes have better brakes? V brakes aren't better than caliper brakes like on a road bike.. so unless he's going to a disc brake then i don't see much difference. the kind with mtn bike brake levers in the middle of road handlebars are not that great IMO ... i thought i'd want them until i tried them and i prefer road levers on a road bike. they also don't have the same geometry ... cyclo bikes have a higher bottom bracket "The major differences between the two are the frame geometry and the wider clearances for thicker tires" -wiki
thicker more aggressive tires will just make him use more energy and be slower you can get up to like 28's on a regular frame i think.. perhaps more on a touring frame.
either way i bet he already has a bike.. so it's all a mute point
I dont' see how doing strength and cardio on one day is any different than doing it on alternating days.. i don't see how your body would know the difference like that. it's doing both training either way.. it's not like he's doing 100 days of strength and then 100 days of endurance. that i could see messing with one an other
PLUS you're not working the same muscles at all so you're not working your upper body while on the bike and you're not strength training your legs while climbing so it makes no sense.
I don't believe you really ride any distance if you believe that 6mi on a road bike will effect him if he's in any kind of shape at all.. 6 mi will take me 25 mins at a fairly slow pace of 15mph. And if i only had to go 6 mi i'd be doing much faster than that.
Bikeforums.net has a good forum on Commuting that you may find useful.
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scotchie
Dec 27, 2008, 1:11 AM
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aerili wrote: I would say you should try riding and climbing on some of the same days and have complete rest days on the other days. "Interestingly, when aerobic endurance and strength training are performed on the same day there did not appear to be any detrimental effects on the ability of the subjects to increase their strength or aerobic capacity. Although the daily training volume may be greater in reduced weekly training frequencies, the rest between each exercise session may be sufficient to allow complete recovery." --Jay Hoffman, PhD, "Concurrent Training (Part I)," National Strength and Conditioning Assoc.
Thanks for pointing this out! I have a different question. I am trying to train climbing, strength, and (eventually) aerobic at the same time, and it's hard finding time to get all the workouts in! So I'm trying to make the best use of recovery time possible. Any suggestions on climbing and weightlifting? Is it better to do them same-day or alternate? How many rest days / week are needed? Two?
PS: The weightlifting is for shoulder rehab plus opposition muscles, not general purpose bodybuilding.
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ryanb
Dec 27, 2008, 5:56 AM
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Jakedatc, cross bikes are built to be raced on steep courses in muddy conditions and will take a lot of abuse and ride like new with a hose down and a bit of lube...
They have good brakes. Lots do have discs these days, but v brakes do work better then cantilevers ...there is a reason they stopped using cantilevers on mountain bikes when v's were developed.
They have a racing geometry. They have more ground clearance yes, but good ones are still designed with performance in mind.
Wheel clearance wise, I run 30 something specialized armadillos (great tires btw) with room for real fenders and haven't had a flat in two years of daily comuting through an industrial area packed with gravel, potholes, train tracks...
Road bikes are great too but i am sold on cross bikes for commuters who don't have a ton of time to spend on maintenance.
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angry
Dec 28, 2008, 8:34 AM
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Ah the bullshit is flying. Stop defending your way of biking as THE way of biking.
Fact: A cross bike has different geometry than a road bike.
Fact: A cross bike is similar enough to be ACA and USCF legal on the road.
Fact: V brakes are more powerful than road calipers
Fact: You'll be skidding long before this matters
Fact: A poorly maintained bike rides poorly. Road, Mountain, Cross, etc.
Fact: There are not cross specific drivetrains. They are either road or mountain or creative combinations of the two. Any durability implied in their function has nothing to do with it being on a road or cross bike.
Fact: Nine times out of ten, cross wheels are just heavy road wheels. They aren't some sick strong uber hay bale hopping breed. Just the standards built without low spoke counts or funny lacing.
Opinion you can take as fact (OYCTF): You'll never notice a cross bike being slower if you run the same tires. A cross bike is usually slower because it has much wider and knobby tires. Duh.
OYCTF: You'll never notice the time difference between the two
OYCTF: Cross bikes accumulate far fewer miles because they are heavier, harsher, and slower. This is why you think they shift better.
If I were to commit to a 6 mile commute, I'd just get a fixie with about a 48x16 ratio and a flip flop hub so I could choose to freewheel or not. With that you do have a bike that truly only requires some lube. It's slower than either the cross or road bike but in 6 miles, that's like 90 seconds each way, tops. Somehow it's really fun. And you can make some old piece of shit totally light and fun to ride. Don't forget, on a fixie you can wear girls pants and a bike lock as a belt and no-one will even mention it. That's power.
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blu3d0g
Dec 28, 2008, 2:03 PM
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To correct a few more cycling misconceptions here, cross bikes don't use V-brakes, and road bikes don't use cantilevers. Road bikes use dual pivot side pull brakes (very different than cantilevers), and cross bikes use cantis. Cross bikes use cantis because they are more powerful than anything other than disc brakes (or hydraulic brakes of any form), and offer better mud and tire clearance than side pulls. Very few cross bikes offer disc brakes because they aren't legal in UCI sanctioned races. V-brakes mostly exist because they give much better tire and mud clearance than cantis.
Cross bikes have CROSS racing geometry, this is very different from ROAD racing geometry. The angles of all the tubes are much slacker, which results in a more upright riding position so your body has an easier time dealing with rough ground on an un-suspended bike. I also don't know of a single cross bike that doesn't come stock with a road drive train, so they take just as much care and feeding as any road bike.
Armadillos are great for never ever having a flat, but they have the worst traction of any tire I've ever used. Finally, fixed gears are a blast, but if you have knee problems be prepared to run a small gear ratio and spin a lot. Any single speed bike with a high gear ratio will cause you to exacerbate any knee problems you already have.
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roughster
Dec 28, 2008, 2:14 PM
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Jesus Christ you guys are WAY over thinking this.
- Buy a beater Mtb Bike (preferable no suspension) for like $25 off of Craig's List.
- Slap on some slicks (I run Armadillos for durability) / Clip On Fenders (~$9) / Back Reflector Light - Flasher thing (most Counties will send one to you for free if you call them), Buy a Blackburn or other cheap LED light to clip on your bars for darkness, Under the Saddle Bag with an extra tube, a repair kit, and multi-tool, finally get a small frame pump, small cable lock. Total cost for all of this (excluding tires) ~$50-$60. Total bike cost should be under $100 w/o tires. Watch Ebay / Craig's list for cheap tires. You can start off with some cheap slicks for like $10-20 a pair, but I personally feel the Armadillos are worth the extra cost for piece of mind.
- Every morning look outside, if it is raining drive, if it isn't raining ride. It only matters on the way in, on the way home who cares if you get rained on?
- Ride as slow as you can on the way in to enjoy the start of your day.
- Ride as fast as you can on the way home for a workout.
- Enter all County "Bike to Work" contests etc and collect free gift cards / drawing prizes.
- Feel good about doing your part in keeping another car off of the streets.
n = 4 years and counting. I only drove to work 6 times last year :)
Below is the result of doing exactly described above:
(This post was edited by roughster on Dec 28, 2008, 2:37 PM)
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blu3d0g
Dec 28, 2008, 2:32 PM
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roughster wrote: - Every morning look outside, if it is raining drive, if it isn't raining ride. It only matters on the way in, on the way home who cares if you get rained on?
if it is raining just dress appropriately and bring a change of clothes (socks especially). Also, I think your technique is fine as long as you have no interest in serious riding outside of your commute. The above thoughts mostly seem to come from people who do a fair amount of riding in addition to the commute. I commute on a bike no matter what the weather, and I do some road riding and as much mountain biking as I can fit in around climbing.
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roughster
Dec 28, 2008, 2:41 PM
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BD:
I found that even geared up for rain it just isn't worth the hassle if you are commuting to work.
And like I said, it has to be actively raining to stop me. If the roads are wet because it rained earlier, that's what the fenders are for, I still ride.
In the Bay area, I find that there are usually sub-10 days a year where I don't ride due to the policy above.
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blu3d0g
Dec 28, 2008, 2:45 PM
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roughster,
Must be nice being in the bay area :-P
With that policy you'd ride maybe 2 days a week for half of the year here in Boston. You just need goggles and a face mask for when it starts to hail. The only thing that really stops me from riding after four years here is winds over 45mph. I once got hit by a wind gust and blown across two lanes of (fortunately empty) road.
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