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majid_sabet


Jan 4, 2009, 10:07 AM
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Rock climbers reject regulation
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THE rock climbing community denies greater regulation of the sport is needed despite an experienced climber plunging to his death in the Blue Mountains.

http://www.news.com.au/...2356-5006009,00.html


basilisk


Jan 4, 2009, 10:39 AM
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Glad to hear.


brownie710


Jan 4, 2009, 10:40 AM
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I think we should push for more regulation of people who wish to procreate before we meddle with climbers


joneus


Jan 4, 2009, 1:00 PM
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brownie710 wrote:
I think we should push for more regulation of people who wish to procreate before we meddle with climbers

Wholeheartedly Agreed!


noburu


Jan 4, 2009, 1:10 PM
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"There was speculation the climbers may have got off route and ended up on another climb which was only partially finished with small, temporary bolts."

Anyone ever heard of "temprary bolts" before?


dj69


Jan 4, 2009, 1:21 PM
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Re: [noburu] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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noburu wrote:
Anyone ever heard of "temprary bolts" before?

1/4 inch expansion bolt maybe?

The description of the hilti KB3 1/4" X 1 3/4" is:
"An expansion bolt for aid climbing and alpine raps. Can also be used as a temporary prep bolt for bolting lines."


Maddhatter


Jan 4, 2009, 1:29 PM
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dj69 wrote:
noburu wrote:
Anyone ever heard of "temprary bolts" before?

1/4 inch expansion bolt maybe?

The description of the hilti KB3 1/4" X 1 3/4" is:
"An expansion bolt for aid climbing and alpine raps. Can also be used as a temporary prep bolt for bolting lines."

Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.


salamanizer


Jan 4, 2009, 2:02 PM
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Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


Maddhatter


Jan 4, 2009, 2:11 PM
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?


lrossi


Jan 4, 2009, 2:23 PM
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brownie710 wrote:
I think we should push for more regulation of people who wish to procreate before we meddle with climbers

You speak the truth.


blondgecko
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Jan 4, 2009, 2:29 PM
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Moved to A&IA.


suilenroc


Jan 4, 2009, 3:08 PM
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Wait... His rope snapped? wtf?


asiaclimber


Jan 4, 2009, 3:27 PM
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They should test the rope for foreign chemicals. I had a friend that thought it was ok to climb on his rope after it got transmission fluid on it. Turns out this was not such a good idea. I'm glad i looked it up before going out climbing with him. It could have accidently gotten something spilled on it while sitting in the trunk of a car that broke down the integrity of the rope. The idea that the rope just snapped after 1 bolt blew tells me that the rope itself was suspect and would have broken even if the bolt had held.


Factor2


Jan 4, 2009, 4:23 PM
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It may have also been sliced over a sharp edge. Hard to say


patto


Jan 4, 2009, 4:24 PM
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That article is full of errors there is no use jumping to conclusions.


blondgecko
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Jan 4, 2009, 4:37 PM
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patto wrote:
That article is full of errors there is no use jumping to conclusions.

This is correct.


patto


Jan 4, 2009, 6:50 PM
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Re: [patto] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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If you do wish to comment on this accident then a good account of the event can be found here:
http://groups.google.com/...ead/d70ea9d59198ccb7


The talk of regulation was started from a spurious scoop from an ignorant reporter. The article should be ignored.


(This post was edited by patto on Jan 4, 2009, 6:51 PM)


shockabuku


Jan 4, 2009, 6:56 PM
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patto wrote:
The article should be ignored.

Probably true, but it might not be ignored by everyone. That could be devastating.

From the 2nd article:

"the nut and fixed hanger became detached from the expansion bolt (leaving the threaded stud remaining in the rock) and he fell past the ledge and his belayer. At this time his rope ran through and was completely cut by a sharp V-shaped notch of ironstone"


(This post was edited by shockabuku on Jan 4, 2009, 7:00 PM)


salamanizer


Jan 4, 2009, 7:14 PM
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Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.


majid_sabet


Jan 4, 2009, 9:40 PM
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noburu wrote:
"There was speculation the climbers may have got off route and ended up on another climb which was only partially finished with small, temporary bolts."

Anyone ever heard of "temprary bolts" before?

Temp bolts should be installed with the same standard as a regular bolt.Any other way, would be a disaster .


suilenroc


Jan 4, 2009, 10:29 PM
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Best read of the day... Awesome.


majid_sabet


Jan 5, 2009, 10:03 AM
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By Angela Saurine

January 06, 2009 12:00am

A SHARP V-shaped notch of ironstone was to blame for cutting the rope of a man who fell to his death in the Blue Mountains, fellow climbers claimed yesterday.

Other adventurers in the area at the time told the Australian Accident Register website Nick Kaczorowski, 24, was leading another climber along the Bunny Bucket Buttress route when they lost their way on Friday morning. They began following another route, to the right of the original route at Pierces Pass, which climbers believe was probably an unfinished route or new project.

The two, and another pair of climbers following closely behind, thought they were still climbing Bunny Buckets.

Part way up the two climbers stopped and improvised a belay, using a single bolt on a small ledge. Mr Kaczorowski started to lead and was attempting to clip the second bolt when the fittings became detached from the expansion bolt and he fell past the ledge and his belayer.

His rope ran through and was sliced by the sharp V-shaped notch of ironstone.


Partner j_ung


Jan 5, 2009, 10:15 AM
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One bolt, eh? Of the same ilk as the one that broke? If so, did the cut rope save the belayer's life? Weird.


dingus


Jan 5, 2009, 10:30 AM
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salamanizer wrote:
I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

That was a beautiful post man.

I placed a 5/16 button head on lead, back in the early 90s. Actually placed several but this one always bothered me... a little scoop-chip blow off the edge of the hole when I hammered it home.

This route is a black water streak granite knob climb. A dry waterfall in other words.

So more than a decade later, 12 - 15 years later, I deciced to replace it with a good modern stud bolt.

So I reled the route, then rapped down with the tools to fix that bolt.

Cept one problem batman.... after 12 years in the rock, in a black water streak no less, I could NOT remove the bolt. I couldn't get to budge, not one millimeter. I did not have a 5/16 tuning fork (which may have done the trick, quien sabe) but I couldn't get the tiniest sliver of action beneath the hanger.

I tried harder and harder and I sorta damaged the hanger in the process. So in the end I beat the hanger flat and placed another bolt right next to it.

I still need to get back up there and clean up that shit.

Anyway, for the modern rc.noob, buttonheads should be treated with suspicion, nevertheless. They aren't a death sentence but new ones aren't being placed much anymore which means most of them are old time bombs.

They may be good. But maybe not.

DMT


shockabuku


Jan 5, 2009, 10:47 AM
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j_ung wrote:
One bolt, eh? Of the same ilk as the one that broke? If so, did the cut rope save the belayer's life? Weird.

The bolt didn't break, according to one of the sources, the nut and hanger fell off the stud. Not an equipment failure (except for maybe the cut rope) but perhaps failure to inspect the bolt.


Maddhatter


Jan 5, 2009, 11:00 AM
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink


Partner j_ung


Jan 5, 2009, 11:53 AM
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Hey now, keep the sarcasm a little less biting, willya? Wink
--Head Librarian


dingus


Jan 5, 2009, 1:25 PM
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Maddhatter wrote:
Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

Yes that's exactly right. There are lots of climbers who don't give your subsequent ascent a moment's consideration. If you have the skills and tools you'll get up the line - if you don't, you won't.

Climbing is not a Group Hug. Don't ever forget that. There are many of us who would still be climbers if all the gyms and prana pants and instructors and rules and stainless steel bolts disappeared over night. This notion that all routes must be equipped for the lowest common denominator is bloody stupid.

Sheesh. Good thing there are still some climbers left to equip all the playground routes!

DMT


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Jan 5, 2009, 2:03 PM
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The convention is in the Blue Mountains that all new fixed hardware will be glue in U's or rings. Some moron placed some sleeve anchors (dynabolts) with fixed hangers. Pierces Pass has some mega long multi pitch routes with no possibilty to place trad gear. Thus the fixed gear.

Nick was a great guy who will be missed.

Lotsa discussion on chockstone for people who may be interested.

There has been a couple of reporters sniffing around placing posts trying to pump for more info. That has not gone down well with climbers.

Edit to fix smelling pistake.


(This post was edited by philbox on Jan 5, 2009, 2:04 PM)


dingus


Jan 5, 2009, 3:07 PM
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philbox wrote:
The convention is in the Blue Mountains that all new fixed hardware will be glue in U's or rings.

That's cool. I doubt its an unreasonable group request either. I'm all for respecting local ethics and standards.

But of course I'd object if you suggested I was being selfish or unsafe or inconsiderate not to use your Blue Mountain bolting standards on a new route in the California back country, on granite.

And in that medium? Hard granite deep in the back country? 1/4 inch button heads go in way faster and with a lot less work and are bloody well strong when placed properly.

I've helped to open two new big wall routes in the back country. Those WERE equipped with subsequent ascents in mind, though if I have my way one of them will never be reported anyway.

My point is I know what the alternatives are like, as I have employed them all.

I know you of all people realize this phil, so I'm not preaching at you brother.

I'm speaking against folks who would suggest that crags, big walls and back country first ascent routes ALL have the same protection requirements and standards.

Cheers
DMT


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Jan 5, 2009, 6:06 PM
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dingus wrote:
philbox wrote:
The convention is in the Blue Mountains that all new fixed hardware will be glue in U's or rings.

That's cool. I doubt its an unreasonable group request either. I'm all for respecting local ethics and standards.

But of course I'd object if you suggested I was being selfish or unsafe or inconsiderate not to use your Blue Mountain bolting standards on a new route in the California back country, on granite.

And in that medium? Hard granite deep in the back country? 1/4 inch button heads go in way faster and with a lot less work and are bloody well strong when placed properly.

I've helped to open two new big wall routes in the back country. Those WERE equipped with subsequent ascents in mind, though if I have my way one of them will never be reported anyway.

My point is I know what the alternatives are like, as I have employed them all.

I know you of all people realize this phil, so I'm not preaching at you brother.

I'm speaking against folks who would suggest that crags, big walls and back country first ascent routes ALL have the same protection requirements and standards.

Cheers
DMT

Nah mate, don't have any problems whatsoever with what you are doing in the back country, was just trying to clear up some misinformation about what had happened to the poor chap who died in the Blueies.

The moron reporter who first publicised some of the details of this accident and quite obviously got it all wrong has cased quite the controversy within the climbing community over here and we are working hard to clear up some of the points he made.

What the intent of my post was was to try to get the thread back on track in case anyone comes sniffing on rc.knob looking for info to feed the controversy.

A lot of the details of this accident won't be known publically for some time. It will go to a coroners inquest. I've got a fair bit of the skinny but won't be saying anything much that will feed the vultures.

Just a sad sad situation as they all are no doubt. Would have sucked no end to have been the belayer and been stuck up on the belay with a short section of rope. Maybe he didn't read rc.com and majid's short rope retreat thread. Laugh


salamanizer


Jan 5, 2009, 6:11 PM
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Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Maddhatter


Jan 5, 2009, 7:20 PM
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.


salamanizer


Jan 5, 2009, 11:25 PM
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Re: [Maddhatter] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.


suilenroc


Jan 5, 2009, 11:37 PM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.

You are totally off pace with Madd... Slow down, re read, re think. re post!


salamanizer


Jan 5, 2009, 11:50 PM
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Re: [suilenroc] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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I don't think I'm too far off. A little beyond perhaps, but not off base.


bozher


Jan 6, 2009, 4:22 AM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Just a note about the press. You can all see the terrible job the press did in reporting on this story. Please think about that the next time you read another article or watch another news story on television that is not related to climbing.


dingus


Jan 6, 2009, 6:12 AM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.

You put that very well sali.

DMT


Partner j_ung


Jan 6, 2009, 6:55 AM
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Re: [bozher] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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bozher wrote:
Just a note about the press. You can all see the terrible job the press did in reporting on this story. Please think about that the next time you read another article or watch another news story on television that is not related to climbing.

Technically, I am part of the subset of humanity known as "the media," and I couldn't agree more. I just had some dealings with other members of the media in regard to a skydiver who died in an accident in California. Definitely put a sour taste in my mouth.


dingus


Jan 6, 2009, 7:03 AM
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A friend and partner of mine once sat for a lengthy interview about climbing in Yosemite and in the Great Ranges world wide.

He asked lots of questions, took studious notes.

Then he got the article ALL WRONG. Be butchered rock climbing terminology (after having it patiently explained to him), he got the details of the climbs wrong, he attrubuted routes to the wrong people, he even spoke about my friend's motives (XTREEEEEEM!).

He got it ALL WRONG. The entire article.

I've heard the exact same comment from a fire fighter friend - they ALMOST ALWAYS get the details wrong.

Insiders on the particular subject at hand rail against the TV or paper or what have you. The rest of us just take it all in,

What this suggested to me is that - the so-called news contains a lot of fancy made up bullshit.

DMT


reno


Jan 6, 2009, 7:14 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Technically, I am part of the subset of humanity known as "the media," and I couldn't agree more. I just had some dealings with other members of the media in regard to a skydiver who died in an accident in California. Definitely put a sour taste in my mouth.

That pretty much mirrors every experience I've had with them as a paramedic. There were times I watched a clip or read a story about a car crash and thought "Were they at the same car crash I was?"


shoo


Jan 6, 2009, 7:15 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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When being interviewed, it is always a good idea to ask the reporter to send you a copy of the article before publishing to clear up technical points. You may even request that as a condition on being able to use your quotes.


Maddhatter


Jan 6, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.


--------------------------------------------------------------
I never said not to use them on lead, Just they should be replaced with a higher standard bolt after the line is done.
---------------------------------------------------------------


You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?


--------------------------------------------------------------
I'm as old school as anyone. I've been climbing for over 25 years. We (as climbers) set a standard or one will be set for us by non climbers.
-------------------------------------------------------------


What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.


--------------------------------------------------------------
Weak standards are weak standards, Do you even know the "pull" and "shear" on a button head?
If you want to hang a planter at your own home with one feel free. Try to mount a deck to your home with button heads and see how fast the city or county makes you change them.
--------------------------------------------------------------


To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.


--------------------------------------------------------------
I don't care why you climb. There our mountains not just yours.
--------------------------------------------------------------


I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

--------------------------------------------------------------
When you set a cam for your self you make the call if your happy with it. If your not, you can use a different placement of different cam. With fixed pro people have no way of making it safer and thus must trust the person that put it. So yes it should be put in at the highest standard it can be.
------------------------------------------------------------


So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Don't be so sure. And the pull/shears on a button head speak for them self.
----------------------------------------------------------------



I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.


---------------------------------------------------------------
I respect the old ways to a point. I don't like anyone telling us as climbers what we can do or not do. at least 1/2 the button heads I have pulled and replaced had cracks below the heads at the hanger. In some cases they were cracked 1/2 way though. Call the people you get them from and ask them what the shear is on them. Then come back and tell me again how safe they are. I'm not a hater, I don't feel we should make rules to limit what people can climb on.
However, if I choose to do a new line it is up to me to make that line as safe as it can be. As far as camp 4 and a few beers? I will sit and talk to anyone about these things in person or on line. I have yet to meet one climber that didn't have some point of view worth hearing about bolting. I FUCKING HATE BUTTON HEADS!!! And it is because I have pulled and replaced as many as I have. If I do a line that has them I replace them as I rap down. I myself would much rather spend a day improving a old line then making a new one with crappy, cheap, out dated button heads. Like I said before, It is what it is.
For me it is like using nails that "might" hold up the sheet rock over my babies crib. But then again I hold a higher standard in the work I do also. Some guys still use cut nails in there framing nail guns even when they know they have been outlawed in most states because they don't hold the walls together in big storms. I have just found that "good enough" is almost never as good as it could or even should be.
--------------------------------------------------------------


salamanizer


Jan 6, 2009, 11:48 PM
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Re: [Maddhatter] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Maddhatter wrote:
I never said not to use them on lead, Just they should be replaced with a higher standard bolt after the line is done.


Exactly my point, why? You think I'm going to risk my ass rapping down a big wall, doing pendulums and downaiding just so some pussy who climbs after me feels a little safer about the bolt he just clipped...
NEVER! It would take days... DAYS to re-equip a route like that. Days you may not have, good weather lost, accent aborted because of someones generic perception of safety. Screw you!
Sport routes yes, but some bigwall, backcountry or otherwise ground up traditional route... Piss off!

Maddhatter wrote:
I'm as old school as anyone. I've been climbing for over 25 years. We (as climbers) set a standard or one will be set for us by non climbers.

No, WE as climbers don't!

Maddhatter wrote:
Weak standards are weak standards, Do you even know the "pull" and "shear" on a button head?

Yeah, 1/4 in X 1.5in = 1050 lbs pull and 5400 shear (in weak ass concrete). Bomber when placed correctly in the right application.

Maddhatter wrote:
I don't care why you climb. There our mountains not just yours.

That's right, but no ones forcing you to climb them.

Maddhatter wrote:
When you set a cam for your self you make the call if your happy with it. If your not, you can use a different placement of different cam. With fixed pro people have no way of making it safer and thus must trust the person that put it. So yes it should be put in at the highest standard it can be.

Exactly, that's why I use high strength buttonheads instead of cheap bolts from Home Depot.


Maddhatter wrote:
Don't be so sure. And the pull/shears on a button head speak for them self.

I'm pretty sure. Just because they may not be good enough for you or accepted in your area, don't assume they are also obsolete everywhere else. The load ratings say Good Enough, we aint talking sport routes here.

Maddhatter wrote:
I respect the old ways to a point. I don't like anyone telling us as climbers what we can do or not do. at least 1/2 the button heads I have pulled and replaced had cracks below the heads at the hanger. In some cases they were cracked 1/2 way though. Call the people you get them from and ask them what the shear is on them. Then come back and tell me again how safe they are. I'm not a hater, I don't feel we should make rules to limit what people can climb on.
However, if I choose to do a new line it is up to me to make that line as safe as it can be. As far as camp 4 and a few beers? I will sit and talk to anyone about these things in person or on line. I have yet to meet one climber that didn't have some point of view worth hearing about bolting. I FUCKING HATE BUTTON HEADS!!! And it is because I have pulled and replaced as many as I have. If I do a line that has them I replace them as I rap down. I myself would much rather spend a day improving a old line then making a new one with crappy, cheap, out dated button heads. Like I said before, It is what it is.
For me it is like using nails that "might" hold up the sheet rock over my babies crib. But then again I hold a higher standard in the work I do also. Some guys still use cut nails in there framing nail guns even when they know they have been outlawed in most states because they don't hold the walls together in big storms. I have just found that "good enough" is almost never as good as it could or even should be.

You put routes up to make them as safe as they can be. That's great, I admire that but thats exactly my point. Not everyone climbs for the benefit of others. When I do a route that I think will see alot of traffic I too will hold it to the highest standards. If it's a route in the back country where time is short and there are safety issues, standards change. I don't climb to put up safe enjoyable routes (at least all the time), that's not my objective. I climb to climb, period. I'm just doing what I have to do to pass through more or less. I'm not trying to put up a classic route so I can draw a topo and spray my name about, I'm just out climbing. If you come along and think the bolts are trash, you're more than welcome to replace them, but if you think I'm going out of my way to do so, you're out of your mind. I'm not being selfish or cheap, I just don't care if you or anyone else climb my route. There's plenty of other things to climb out there.

I don't think we differ so much in our two points of view. I fully understand your opinion of buttonheads and why you've developed that opinion. My back yard is Yosemite and I'm no stranger to mank fixed gear. I think it's more the environment we both climb in. In most areas, the highest standards should be used in equipping routes, I agree. However, to suggest that this high standard be applied to everywhere regardless is ludicrous. This is where we disagree, there are always exceptions to the rule. That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge.


blueshrimp


Jan 7, 2009, 4:00 AM
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salamanizer wrote:

That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge.

Boooorrriiing....


dingus


Jan 7, 2009, 7:13 AM
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blueshrimp wrote:
salamanizer wrote:

That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge.

Boooorrriiing....

You poor baby!

DMT


Maddhatter


Jan 7, 2009, 8:10 AM
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"there are always exceptions to the rule. That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge."


Yes, There is almost always one fat * chick at the party that is just to fun to be around and has a pretty face after a few beers.
You still wake up the next day going "WTF did I do"
( * Add dude and not chick if your into dudes)

Your not going to get me to say button heads are good pro. It's just not going to happen. As long as where you climb the people are ok with what you do, Then it is what it is. You should still be clear that they should only be placed in HARD granite and even then only on lead. I haven't even went into the crap hangers you have to use with button heads!!


I mean no disrespect to the climber that died and got this post started. May he R.I.P.
How the Fuck does a nut just "come off"? Wrong thread count or size nut? I get the feeling there is more to this story. Some one close to this place should fill in the blanks some. This is some scary shit!


ClimbSoHigh


Jan 7, 2009, 8:49 AM
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100% in agreement. Everythime I think about it this I think of the opening to the movie "Idiocracy". We are in an age of reverse darwinism.

To stay on topic, I'm not against government geologists maintaining bolts and regulating thier replacement. its just not likely that the govt would spend any of its 31% GDP ($2,730,000,000,000 for 2008) on Climbers when we have no lobiests or boosters. They would rather bail out thier investments in GM or AIG or further investments in private military contractors and weapons manufacturers (mostly owned by congressmen...) Why would they help us if they can help themselves? Whoops, got of topic again slightly.

The most efficient way to keep bolts and fixed pro safest is mostly already being used. Most major cliffs/destinations have a devoted group of locals who form a coilition to maintain cliff access and change any fixed pro. This seems to be by far the most cost effective way and it keeps the gov't BS away from our sport. Thank god cliffs and climbing are not profitable...


salamanizer


Jan 7, 2009, 2:54 PM
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Maddhatter wrote:
As long as where you climb the people are ok with what you do, Then it is what it is. You should still be clear that they should only be placed in HARD granite and even then only on lead. I haven't even went into the crap hangers you have to use with button heads

Aah, now we're talkin, at least we're in agreement here... accept you should know that regular FIXE hangers work just fine with buttonheads. They're what I use at least.

Thread back on track...

My condolences to the family of our fallen brother.

I'll wait to hear the final definitive story (should it ever come out) before I make any comments.
Jumping to conclusions and theories is counterproductive.


gee


Jan 15, 2009, 3:46 PM
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http://www.onsight.com.au/...cident-what-happened


Partner robdotcalm


Jan 15, 2009, 7:41 PM
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Thank you for referencing that definitive report on the accident. We all have a responsibility not to create attractive hazards.

Condolences to the family and friends of the fallen climber.

RobertusPunctumPacificus


scottek67


Jan 15, 2009, 8:51 PM
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thanks for posting that article that seemed quite accurate. my condolences to the friends and family as well. this forum is..."THE rock climbing community denies greater regulation of the sport is needed despite an experienced climber plunging to his death in the Blue Mountains." This shouldn't be about regulating climbing (if you want to climb a tree or a mountain that is your choice) but this should be about regulating the sale of anchor bolts. I saw a post on "how to install anchor bolts" and I didn't reply but it still gave me goose-bumps! I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing. I totally agree that if installed properly (proper size, strength, and proper installation techniques, etc) anchor bolts are "bomber". What I don't agree with is that any idiot with a hammer-drill can jump on a piece of rock and go to town installing anchor-bolts! I hear there are ethics like "place bolt every 3 metres" or "don't place a bolt next to a crack where pro can be used". I really don't care if there are bolts every 3 feet as long as they installed correctly! I am a sport climber mostly but just started buying trad gear (building my first rack) for the main reason that if I don't like the look of a bolt (sketchy, loose, rusted) I want to be able to protect myself, period. I might try and tighten a bolt if it's stainless and doesn't have a half inch of threads showing but I would never remove or chop a bolt. That's not my responsibility. My only responsibility would be to install a bolt correctly (if I chose to) for future climbers AND to protect myself. I have no intentions to ever bolt my own route and get my name in a guide-book because I've spent enough time on a hammer-drill and don't want to use one on a day off from work! There are enough bolted routes in this world for me! I believe anchor bolts should be like bullets. You should need proper certification to buy both. If you want to buy them on the black-market... fine. Just go bolt your backyard only!


captainstatic


Jan 16, 2009, 11:36 AM
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In reply to:
I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing.
The problem with your logic is that first your company paid for your training to get certified and second your company pays for liability insurance in case the anchor bolt fails for whatever reason. Thus certification would not be a workable situation for route development because even if you could afford the training you probably couldn't afford the insurance. The best advice regarding fixed protection is to view it as abandoned gear, assess the gear, and proceed according to your judgement of the adequacy of that gear. Regulation is no substitute for judgement and regulation in fact might provide a false sense of security and lead some to drop the guard of their judgement.


dingus


Jan 16, 2009, 12:05 PM
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scottek67 wrote:
thanks for posting that article that seemed quite accurate. my condolences to the friends and family as well. this forum is..."THE rock climbing community denies greater regulation of the sport is needed despite an experienced climber plunging to his death in the Blue Mountains." This shouldn't be about regulating climbing (if you want to climb a tree or a mountain that is your choice) but this should be about regulating the sale of anchor bolts. I saw a post on "how to install anchor bolts" and I didn't reply but it still gave me goose-bumps! I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing. I totally agree that if installed properly (proper size, strength, and proper installation techniques, etc) anchor bolts are "bomber". What I don't agree with is that any idiot with a hammer-drill can jump on a piece of rock and go to town installing anchor-bolts! I hear there are ethics like "place bolt every 3 metres" or "don't place a bolt next to a crack where pro can be used". I really don't care if there are bolts every 3 feet as long as they installed correctly! I am a sport climber mostly but just started buying trad gear (building my first rack) for the main reason that if I don't like the look of a bolt (sketchy, loose, rusted) I want to be able to protect myself, period. I might try and tighten a bolt if it's stainless and doesn't have a half inch of threads showing but I would never remove or chop a bolt. That's not my responsibility. My only responsibility would be to install a bolt correctly (if I chose to) for future climbers AND to protect myself. I have no intentions to ever bolt my own route and get my name in a guide-book because I've spent enough time on a hammer-drill and don't want to use one on a day off from work! There are enough bolted routes in this world for me! I believe anchor bolts should be like bullets. You should need proper certification to buy both. If you want to buy them on the black-market... fine. Just go bolt your backyard only!

scottek - I have one question:

Are you certified to buy that trad rack?

If not, why not?

DMT


blondgecko
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Jan 16, 2009, 2:16 PM
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Wow.

Fuck.

I for one wouldn't be weeping if those guys were tracked down and charged with manslaughter. I hope that, at the very least, they hear about what their actions led to.


Partner robdotcalm


Jan 16, 2009, 3:05 PM
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dingus wrote:
scottek - I have one question:

Are you certified to buy that trad rack?

If not, why not?

DMT

I don't disagree with the notion that certification is impractical, but the big difference is that with a traditional rack, you are not creating an attractive hazard to endanger other people.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


kriso9tails


Jan 16, 2009, 7:19 PM
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dingus wrote:
Climbing is not a Group Hug. Don't ever forget that.

What? I started climbing over fifteen years ago and just now I find out that I've been doing it for the wrong reason?

Climbing may not be a group hug, but it can often be a circle jerk.


scottek67


Jan 18, 2009, 7:14 AM
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This forum isn't about me. I just feel strongly about idiots improperly installing anchor bolts especially when I find out someone died as a result! I just wanted to address a couple issues with your reply, captainstatic. I am self-employed so I paid for my own training and school. I buy liability insurance in case I catch something on fire from using a plasma-cutter, welder, etc. I don't buy insurance in case an anchor-bolt fails because I've never seen one fail if installed correctly. They are over-engineered to prevent failure. If expansion type bolts (wedge-anchors) are installed correctly you cannot pull them out! You could only hammer them in flush or chop them. Certification would be a workable situation because the training is cheap and the insurance is also cheap. I don't think you need to insure anyway...I would just hope that people installing hardware learned the proper methods when in the future climbers lives are at risk using that same hardware. that's what this OP is about, right? Your "best advice" comment leads me to believe you didn't get why I started buying my own cams. Well Dingus... you are a dingus! If I place a cam my life is the only one at risk, period. I feel terrible that a life was lost because he assumed the asshole with the cordless hammer-drill knew what the fuck he was doing! anchors don't fuck up, people do.


scottek67


Jan 18, 2009, 7:17 AM
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well said, Rob. cheers to you.


mojomonkey


Feb 3, 2009, 5:48 AM
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Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

A quote (translated) from the bolter:
In reply to:
“This kind of rock, sandstone, turns into a featureless mass of mud, sand, lichens and human sweat when the rain falls. It is impossible to climb on it as there is no friction (very different from limestone which is climbable when wet). Also the wet sandstone is prone to breaking. During our ascent some parts of route looked like we were climbing on a pile of ceramic tiles. You carefully grab a horizontal tile like hold (harder layers in sandwich between softer sand base) sticking out of a rock, you move up and when you step on it, it brakes, but you are already holding a next hold.”

“Grade of the route tells nothing about its complexity. We started climbing early in the morning after a few days of rain. Everything was slippery, breakable and full of mud. The worst thing is that the bolts are not holding in this soft rock. You place the bolt, apply the weight and it’s already turning. Some of them we could take out with a bare hand!”


(This post was edited by mojomonkey on Feb 3, 2009, 5:50 AM)


JAB


Feb 4, 2009, 5:33 AM
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It seems the FA Boris Cujic is somewhat of a veteran (check out the pic in the gallery: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...dohoda_7a_22192.html). The fact that he knew the bolts were poor, but did not mention it to Simon Carter (who publishes the guide book) or any other local is negligent to say the least!


(This post was edited by JAB on Feb 4, 2009, 5:33 AM)


Senate156


Feb 4, 2009, 6:20 AM
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hmmm i smell a civil suit in the near future


Partner j_ung


Feb 4, 2009, 7:02 AM
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Across international lines? Can that work?


Gmburns2000


Feb 4, 2009, 7:33 AM
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mojomonkey wrote:
Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

A quote (translated) from the bolter:
In reply to:
“This kind of rock, sandstone, turns into a featureless mass of mud, sand, lichens and human sweat when the rain falls. It is impossible to climb on it as there is no friction (very different from limestone which is climbable when wet). Also the wet sandstone is prone to breaking. During our ascent some parts of route looked like we were climbing on a pile of ceramic tiles. You carefully grab a horizontal tile like hold (harder layers in sandwich between softer sand base) sticking out of a rock, you move up and when you step on it, it brakes, but you are already holding a next hold.”

“Grade of the route tells nothing about its complexity. We started climbing early in the morning after a few days of rain. Everything was slippery, breakable and full of mud. The worst thing is that the bolts are not holding in this soft rock. You place the bolt, apply the weight and it’s already turning. Some of them we could take out with a bare hand!”

Shocked

I just can't imagine why they continued to climb with the rain on sandstone. I know that some sandstone is harder than others, but this sounds as if it softened easily. You'd think that seven new routes on seven continents in one year would allow for them to take a few extra days to ensure the route and bolting was done properly (well, not that they would have bolted properly had they waited, but maybe waiting for the rock to dry would have at least helped to preserve the rock / route itself).

Does the fact that the rock was soft when many of the bolts were placed make a difference in the holding strength? Or is the holding strength merely a function of how it was placed?


Gmburns2000


Feb 4, 2009, 7:35 AM
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j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.


dingus


Feb 4, 2009, 8:49 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT


Gmburns2000


Feb 4, 2009, 8:53 AM
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dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that it is possible to sue across intl borders.


dingus


Feb 4, 2009, 9:03 AM
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I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT


Gmburns2000


Feb 4, 2009, 9:33 AM
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dingus wrote:
I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT

Heh. It's funny where amazing position reversals can come from.

I write my blog to be a sort of guide, so I hope that doesn't come back to haunt me.


Johnny_Fang


Feb 4, 2009, 10:53 AM
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dingus wrote:
I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT

Dont forget that intentionality/due caution/neglect are all factors considered in lawsuits. I'd say this climb was bolted without due caution and with neglect. I could be wrong.

Regardless, after watching this video my lead-head on bolts is going to be complete fawked up for a long, long time.


Partner epoch
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Feb 4, 2009, 11:03 AM
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Interjection:

Valarc posted a comment here: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2073230#2073230

regarding a post on Simon Carter's blog with this.


k.l.k


Feb 4, 2009, 11:26 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:
dingus wrote:
scottek - I have one question:

Are you certified to buy that trad rack?

If not, why not?

DMT

I don't disagree with the notion that certification is impractical, but the big difference is that with a traditional rack, you are not creating an attractive hazard to endanger other people.


Really? What if I put up two multi-pitch routes side-by-side on Sierra granite, one following a thin seam, protected by #0 RPs and a couple of marginal blades.

Fifty feet to the right, I put up a mirror route on the slab, placing buttonheads on lead.

The gear on the second is probably a lot freakin stronger than the gear on the first. Why would it be an attractive hazard and thus irresponsible?


acorneau


Feb 4, 2009, 12:16 PM
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mojomonkey wrote:
Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

Very scary how easily some of those bolts came out!

I'm curious why they didn't re-equip the route with proper hardware? (This seems like a prime candidate for glue-in bolts.) Is the route too dangerous because of the sharp edges, or just too poor quality of a route, perhaps?

Sad story, though. Unsure


(This post was edited by acorneau on Feb 4, 2009, 12:17 PM)


mojomonkey


Feb 4, 2009, 12:42 PM
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acorneau wrote:
mojomonkey wrote:
Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

Very scary how easily some of those bolts came out!

I'm curious why they didn't re-equip the route with proper hardware? (This seems like a prime candidate for glue-in bolts.) Is the route too dangerous because of the sharp edges, or just too poor quality of a route, perhaps?

Sad story, though. Unsure

I have no personal knowledge on the quality or worth of the line, but here is Simon's response (on chockstone) to whether the route will be rebolted:
In reply to:
No. Sorry. Absolutely not. That route is one of the most worthless piles of rubbish I have ever seen in my life. I imagine (or hope) that it could have only ever been a visiting climber, who cared nothing for the quality of they did, would ever seriously consider putting a "route" up there.

I can't find where, but another thread discussion indicated in softer tones that the rock was poor quality and the line forced in just because there was some room for an FA.


Partner cracklover


Feb 4, 2009, 1:07 PM
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Wow. Just, wow. What a sad, sad story.

My condolences to the bereaved, and shame on the FA team.

GO


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dingus wrote:
Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

I agree. But assuming the info we have is correct, I still think these guys shouldn't be utter and completely ashamed of their actions.


mojomonkey


Feb 4, 2009, 3:09 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers. They were easily removed by other parties investigating later.

The climber got off route, fell, his rope was cut, and he fell to his death.

It was the team's judgment to follow what turned out to be the wrong line.

The bolters bear the responsibility of doing a poor job, and could fairly be considered reckless (wet sandstone and recommendations against their approach from locals). But talk of liability seems misguided.

IF the rope had not been cut, the consensus seems to be that the bolts would not have held. Perhaps the belayer would also have been pulled from the wall. The cut rope may have saved the belayer's life.

A very tragic situation.


patto


Feb 4, 2009, 3:54 PM
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Re: [mojomonkey] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers. They were easily removed by other parties investigating later.

The climber got off route, fell, his rope was cut, and he fell to his death.

It was the team's judgment to follow what turned out to be the wrong line.

The bolters bear the responsibility of doing a poor job, and could fairly be considered reckless (wet sandstone and recommendations against their approach from locals). But talk of liability seems misguided.

IF the rope had not been cut, the consensus seems to be that the bolts would not have held. Perhaps the belayer would also have been pulled from the wall. The cut rope may have saved the belayer's life.

A very tragic situation.

It was my understanding that the climber was clipping a bolt (and presumabl transferring weight onto it) when it came out and he fell. Some blame has to be levelled at the bolt.

Either way I would not wholely object to charges of criminal negligence being brought upon these bolters.

Sure none of us want to see law suits however if you place bolts as bad as that you might as well be building pit traps along walking paths with sharpened stakes in the bottom.


JAB


Feb 5, 2009, 4:38 AM
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Re: [mojomonkey] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers.

In fact you missed it. The climber weighted a bolt, which failed, with the result that he fell over a sharp ledge which cut the rope.


mojomonkey


Feb 5, 2009, 5:14 AM
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Re: [JAB] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
mojomonkey wrote:
Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers.

In fact you missed it. The climber weighted a bolt, which failed, with the result that he fell over a sharp ledge which cut the rope.

Thanks for the clarification.


roadstead


Feb 5, 2009, 6:50 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT

Climbing as we know it died 20 years...this is just the DEATH rattle.


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 6:55 AM
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Re: [roadstead] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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roadstead wrote:
dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT

Climbing as we know it died 20 years...this is just the DEATH rattle.

Nah. It's certainly evolved but the basic premise of American climbing built on the first ascent and grass roots style reporting - is alive and well.

I think for this basic model to survive even one more generation we as climbers must:
1. Respect the first ascent
2. Respect LOCAL ethics
3. Reject (and SHOUT DOWN) any liability suits that threaten this basic independance.

For example, while I admire the belayer kid who held the rope and save his partner but died himself, in the infamous Glacier Point rock fall? I think the lawsuit his parents attempted against the NPS was bullshit and I was gratified to see it dismissed. I feel for their loss but their son ACCEPTED THE RISKS by doing the deed and they had no business at all suing the park service. As a parent I think I can understand at least part of their pain though.

I like modern climbing and modern climbers just fine, btw, from sport to boulder to trad. Most of em never get more than a 1/2 a mile from the nearest road so its easy enough to avoid em when I'm feeling anti-social (which is most of the time hehe)

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 5, 2009, 6:59 AM)


shockabuku


Feb 5, 2009, 7:13 AM
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cracklover wrote:
Wow. Just, wow. What a sad, sad story.

My condolences to the bereaved, and shame on the FA team.

GO

I don't get this. Now we're judging the FAs style but in 100 other threads the FAs decisions are considered unquestionable????


JAB


Feb 5, 2009, 7:18 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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I really think you are looking at this as being only black or white, dingus. Even if these guys were held liable for the bolting, I don't think any other bolter should get worried. Remember the facts:

* The bolters used bolts that were not suitable for climbing
* The bolters were told not to use those bolts by local climbers, but did so anyway
* The bolters knew the bolts they put in were worthless (they mentioned on their home forum that they could take some out by hand)
* They named the route and sent in a topo the the guidebook producer, making no mention of bad bolts

I think any jury would see quite a big difference between the above case and a case of a rusty 30 year old peg braking after fallen on.


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 7:21 AM
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Re: [JAB] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
I really think you are looking at this as being only black or white, dingus. Even if these guys were held liable for the bolting, I don't think any other bolter should get worried. Remember the facts:

* The bolters used bolts that were not suitable for climbing
* The bolters were told not to use those bolts by local climbers, but did so anyway
* The bolters knew the bolts they put in were worthless (they mentioned on their home forum that they could take some out by hand)
* They named the route and sent in a topo the the guidebook producer, making no mention of bad bolts

I think any jury would see quite a big difference between the above case and a case of a rusty 30 year old peg braking after fallen on.

JAB... just the ligit threat of getting sued would curtail most FA teams from reporting. I don't know about you but I cannot afford to defend a suit based upon something I may havde done on a route five years ago.

And I don't trust a jury's common sense the way you do.

Lastly if one suit is successful, some lawyers will make note and the ambulance chase will be ON. A new law practice specialty will be born - climbers suing climbers.

To prevent this eventuality we'd have to go the way of Scuba. I don't want that.

Cheers my friend
DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 5, 2009, 7:23 AM)


Partner cracklover


Feb 5, 2009, 12:15 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Wow. Just, wow. What a sad, sad story.

My condolences to the bereaved, and shame on the FA team.

GO

I don't get this. Now we're judging the FAs style but in 100 other threads the FAs decisions are considered unquestionable????

I see no contradiction. I have plenty of respect for the style of an FA team. But that respect has its limits.

When the FA team puts up a route, that route expresses their vision on the rock. Some climbs show the boldness of the FA team, some show a great eye for reading a line. And from everything I've read, this one shows disrespect for the local ethic, a callous disregard for their fellow climbers, and a lot of poor decisions, including the decisions made not to inform anyone of their poor bolting job.

I'm not in favor of a lawsuit. I'm not in favor of regulation from outside the climbing community. But I'm very much in favor of the FA team being shunned by the climbing community. The fact that they put up an FA in no way justifies the arrogance and thoughtlessness that helped precipitate this tragedy.

GO


Partner j_ung


Feb 5, 2009, 12:19 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Wow. Just, wow. What a sad, sad story.

My condolences to the bereaved, and shame on the FA team.

GO

I don't get this. Now we're judging the FAs style but in 100 other threads the FAs decisions are considered unquestionable????

This seems quite a bit more serious to me than a question of style. This is a question of ethics through and through, and a case where the bolters acted selfishly and seemingly without any regard for others who might follow behind them. That, plus the victim's ultimate decision to climb are, IMO, equally responsible for the accident.

I'm with dingus in that there's actually a bigger picture here than it at first seems, and I don't want to see any type of lawsuit. But damn, I'd love to hear those guys have given up climbing forever in a fit of shame and guilt -- or that they will personally do something (dunno what) to make amends for their actions.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Feb 5, 2009, 12:19 PM)


JAB


Feb 7, 2009, 12:29 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Just a heads up that one of the FA's have responded in a thread at ukclimbing. I could'nt find a way to link directly to the post, so go to this thread: http://www.ukc2.com/...php?t=340148&v=1 and search for "Boris Cujic".


scottek67


Feb 7, 2009, 6:46 PM
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Re: [JAB] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
Just a heads up that one of the FA's have responded in a thread at ukclimbing. I could'nt find a way to link directly to the post, so go to this thread: http://www.ukc2.com/...php?t=340148&v=1 and search for "Boris Cujic".

thanks for the link, JAB. lots of opinions and some good reading.


tradrenn


Feb 20, 2009, 8:25 PM
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Re: [suilenroc] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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suilenroc wrote:
You are totally off pace with Madd... Slow down, re read, re think. re post!

No he is not. You and Mad are, so please STFU.


tradrenn


Feb 20, 2009, 8:33 PM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Climbing is not a Group Hug. Don't ever forget that. There are many of us who would still be climbers if all the gyms and prana pants and instructors and rules and stainless steel bolts disappeared over night. This notion that all routes must be equipped for the lowest common denominator is bloody stupid.

DMT

I've been dreaming about it for about 3 years now, that would be a beautiful day.


Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


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