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Maddhatter


Jan 5, 2009, 11:00 AM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink


Partner j_ung


Jan 5, 2009, 11:53 AM
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Re: [Maddhatter] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Hey now, keep the sarcasm a little less biting, willya? Wink
--Head Librarian


dingus


Jan 5, 2009, 1:25 PM
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Re: [Maddhatter] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Maddhatter wrote:
Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

Yes that's exactly right. There are lots of climbers who don't give your subsequent ascent a moment's consideration. If you have the skills and tools you'll get up the line - if you don't, you won't.

Climbing is not a Group Hug. Don't ever forget that. There are many of us who would still be climbers if all the gyms and prana pants and instructors and rules and stainless steel bolts disappeared over night. This notion that all routes must be equipped for the lowest common denominator is bloody stupid.

Sheesh. Good thing there are still some climbers left to equip all the playground routes!

DMT


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Jan 5, 2009, 2:03 PM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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The convention is in the Blue Mountains that all new fixed hardware will be glue in U's or rings. Some moron placed some sleeve anchors (dynabolts) with fixed hangers. Pierces Pass has some mega long multi pitch routes with no possibilty to place trad gear. Thus the fixed gear.

Nick was a great guy who will be missed.

Lotsa discussion on chockstone for people who may be interested.

There has been a couple of reporters sniffing around placing posts trying to pump for more info. That has not gone down well with climbers.

Edit to fix smelling pistake.


(This post was edited by philbox on Jan 5, 2009, 2:04 PM)


dingus


Jan 5, 2009, 3:07 PM
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Re: [philbox] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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philbox wrote:
The convention is in the Blue Mountains that all new fixed hardware will be glue in U's or rings.

That's cool. I doubt its an unreasonable group request either. I'm all for respecting local ethics and standards.

But of course I'd object if you suggested I was being selfish or unsafe or inconsiderate not to use your Blue Mountain bolting standards on a new route in the California back country, on granite.

And in that medium? Hard granite deep in the back country? 1/4 inch button heads go in way faster and with a lot less work and are bloody well strong when placed properly.

I've helped to open two new big wall routes in the back country. Those WERE equipped with subsequent ascents in mind, though if I have my way one of them will never be reported anyway.

My point is I know what the alternatives are like, as I have employed them all.

I know you of all people realize this phil, so I'm not preaching at you brother.

I'm speaking against folks who would suggest that crags, big walls and back country first ascent routes ALL have the same protection requirements and standards.

Cheers
DMT


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Jan 5, 2009, 6:06 PM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
philbox wrote:
The convention is in the Blue Mountains that all new fixed hardware will be glue in U's or rings.

That's cool. I doubt its an unreasonable group request either. I'm all for respecting local ethics and standards.

But of course I'd object if you suggested I was being selfish or unsafe or inconsiderate not to use your Blue Mountain bolting standards on a new route in the California back country, on granite.

And in that medium? Hard granite deep in the back country? 1/4 inch button heads go in way faster and with a lot less work and are bloody well strong when placed properly.

I've helped to open two new big wall routes in the back country. Those WERE equipped with subsequent ascents in mind, though if I have my way one of them will never be reported anyway.

My point is I know what the alternatives are like, as I have employed them all.

I know you of all people realize this phil, so I'm not preaching at you brother.

I'm speaking against folks who would suggest that crags, big walls and back country first ascent routes ALL have the same protection requirements and standards.

Cheers
DMT

Nah mate, don't have any problems whatsoever with what you are doing in the back country, was just trying to clear up some misinformation about what had happened to the poor chap who died in the Blueies.

The moron reporter who first publicised some of the details of this accident and quite obviously got it all wrong has cased quite the controversy within the climbing community over here and we are working hard to clear up some of the points he made.

What the intent of my post was was to try to get the thread back on track in case anyone comes sniffing on rc.knob looking for info to feed the controversy.

A lot of the details of this accident won't be known publically for some time. It will go to a coroners inquest. I've got a fair bit of the skinny but won't be saying anything much that will feed the vultures.

Just a sad sad situation as they all are no doubt. Would have sucked no end to have been the belayer and been stuck up on the belay with a short section of rope. Maybe he didn't read rc.com and majid's short rope retreat thread. Laugh


salamanizer


Jan 5, 2009, 6:11 PM
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Re: [Maddhatter] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Maddhatter


Jan 5, 2009, 7:20 PM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.


salamanizer


Jan 5, 2009, 11:25 PM
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Re: [Maddhatter] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.


suilenroc


Jan 5, 2009, 11:37 PM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.

You are totally off pace with Madd... Slow down, re read, re think. re post!


salamanizer


Jan 5, 2009, 11:50 PM
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Re: [suilenroc] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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I don't think I'm too far off. A little beyond perhaps, but not off base.


bozher


Jan 6, 2009, 4:22 AM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Just a note about the press. You can all see the terrible job the press did in reporting on this story. Please think about that the next time you read another article or watch another news story on television that is not related to climbing.


dingus


Jan 6, 2009, 6:12 AM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.

You put that very well sali.

DMT


Partner j_ung


Jan 6, 2009, 6:55 AM
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Re: [bozher] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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bozher wrote:
Just a note about the press. You can all see the terrible job the press did in reporting on this story. Please think about that the next time you read another article or watch another news story on television that is not related to climbing.

Technically, I am part of the subset of humanity known as "the media," and I couldn't agree more. I just had some dealings with other members of the media in regard to a skydiver who died in an accident in California. Definitely put a sour taste in my mouth.


dingus


Jan 6, 2009, 7:03 AM
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A friend and partner of mine once sat for a lengthy interview about climbing in Yosemite and in the Great Ranges world wide.

He asked lots of questions, took studious notes.

Then he got the article ALL WRONG. Be butchered rock climbing terminology (after having it patiently explained to him), he got the details of the climbs wrong, he attrubuted routes to the wrong people, he even spoke about my friend's motives (XTREEEEEEM!).

He got it ALL WRONG. The entire article.

I've heard the exact same comment from a fire fighter friend - they ALMOST ALWAYS get the details wrong.

Insiders on the particular subject at hand rail against the TV or paper or what have you. The rest of us just take it all in,

What this suggested to me is that - the so-called news contains a lot of fancy made up bullshit.

DMT


reno


Jan 6, 2009, 7:14 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Technically, I am part of the subset of humanity known as "the media," and I couldn't agree more. I just had some dealings with other members of the media in regard to a skydiver who died in an accident in California. Definitely put a sour taste in my mouth.

That pretty much mirrors every experience I've had with them as a paramedic. There were times I watched a clip or read a story about a car crash and thought "Were they at the same car crash I was?"


shoo


Jan 6, 2009, 7:15 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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When being interviewed, it is always a good idea to ask the reporter to send you a copy of the article before publishing to clear up technical points. You may even request that as a condition on being able to use your quotes.


Maddhatter


Jan 6, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
salamanizer wrote:
Maddhatter wrote:
Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.


How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters. Wink

There you go with the ignorance thing again.


Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.


--------------------------------------------------------------
I never said not to use them on lead, Just they should be replaced with a higher standard bolt after the line is done.
---------------------------------------------------------------


You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?


--------------------------------------------------------------
I'm as old school as anyone. I've been climbing for over 25 years. We (as climbers) set a standard or one will be set for us by non climbers.
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What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.


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Weak standards are weak standards, Do you even know the "pull" and "shear" on a button head?
If you want to hang a planter at your own home with one feel free. Try to mount a deck to your home with button heads and see how fast the city or county makes you change them.
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To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.


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I don't care why you climb. There our mountains not just yours.
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I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

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When you set a cam for your self you make the call if your happy with it. If your not, you can use a different placement of different cam. With fixed pro people have no way of making it safer and thus must trust the person that put it. So yes it should be put in at the highest standard it can be.
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So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

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Don't be so sure. And the pull/shears on a button head speak for them self.
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I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.


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I respect the old ways to a point. I don't like anyone telling us as climbers what we can do or not do. at least 1/2 the button heads I have pulled and replaced had cracks below the heads at the hanger. In some cases they were cracked 1/2 way though. Call the people you get them from and ask them what the shear is on them. Then come back and tell me again how safe they are. I'm not a hater, I don't feel we should make rules to limit what people can climb on.
However, if I choose to do a new line it is up to me to make that line as safe as it can be. As far as camp 4 and a few beers? I will sit and talk to anyone about these things in person or on line. I have yet to meet one climber that didn't have some point of view worth hearing about bolting. I FUCKING HATE BUTTON HEADS!!! And it is because I have pulled and replaced as many as I have. If I do a line that has them I replace them as I rap down. I myself would much rather spend a day improving a old line then making a new one with crappy, cheap, out dated button heads. Like I said before, It is what it is.
For me it is like using nails that "might" hold up the sheet rock over my babies crib. But then again I hold a higher standard in the work I do also. Some guys still use cut nails in there framing nail guns even when they know they have been outlawed in most states because they don't hold the walls together in big storms. I have just found that "good enough" is almost never as good as it could or even should be.
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salamanizer


Jan 6, 2009, 11:48 PM
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Re: [Maddhatter] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Maddhatter wrote:
I never said not to use them on lead, Just they should be replaced with a higher standard bolt after the line is done.


Exactly my point, why? You think I'm going to risk my ass rapping down a big wall, doing pendulums and downaiding just so some pussy who climbs after me feels a little safer about the bolt he just clipped...
NEVER! It would take days... DAYS to re-equip a route like that. Days you may not have, good weather lost, accent aborted because of someones generic perception of safety. Screw you!
Sport routes yes, but some bigwall, backcountry or otherwise ground up traditional route... Piss off!

Maddhatter wrote:
I'm as old school as anyone. I've been climbing for over 25 years. We (as climbers) set a standard or one will be set for us by non climbers.

No, WE as climbers don't!

Maddhatter wrote:
Weak standards are weak standards, Do you even know the "pull" and "shear" on a button head?

Yeah, 1/4 in X 1.5in = 1050 lbs pull and 5400 shear (in weak ass concrete). Bomber when placed correctly in the right application.

Maddhatter wrote:
I don't care why you climb. There our mountains not just yours.

That's right, but no ones forcing you to climb them.

Maddhatter wrote:
When you set a cam for your self you make the call if your happy with it. If your not, you can use a different placement of different cam. With fixed pro people have no way of making it safer and thus must trust the person that put it. So yes it should be put in at the highest standard it can be.

Exactly, that's why I use high strength buttonheads instead of cheap bolts from Home Depot.


Maddhatter wrote:
Don't be so sure. And the pull/shears on a button head speak for them self.

I'm pretty sure. Just because they may not be good enough for you or accepted in your area, don't assume they are also obsolete everywhere else. The load ratings say Good Enough, we aint talking sport routes here.

Maddhatter wrote:
I respect the old ways to a point. I don't like anyone telling us as climbers what we can do or not do. at least 1/2 the button heads I have pulled and replaced had cracks below the heads at the hanger. In some cases they were cracked 1/2 way though. Call the people you get them from and ask them what the shear is on them. Then come back and tell me again how safe they are. I'm not a hater, I don't feel we should make rules to limit what people can climb on.
However, if I choose to do a new line it is up to me to make that line as safe as it can be. As far as camp 4 and a few beers? I will sit and talk to anyone about these things in person or on line. I have yet to meet one climber that didn't have some point of view worth hearing about bolting. I FUCKING HATE BUTTON HEADS!!! And it is because I have pulled and replaced as many as I have. If I do a line that has them I replace them as I rap down. I myself would much rather spend a day improving a old line then making a new one with crappy, cheap, out dated button heads. Like I said before, It is what it is.
For me it is like using nails that "might" hold up the sheet rock over my babies crib. But then again I hold a higher standard in the work I do also. Some guys still use cut nails in there framing nail guns even when they know they have been outlawed in most states because they don't hold the walls together in big storms. I have just found that "good enough" is almost never as good as it could or even should be.

You put routes up to make them as safe as they can be. That's great, I admire that but thats exactly my point. Not everyone climbs for the benefit of others. When I do a route that I think will see alot of traffic I too will hold it to the highest standards. If it's a route in the back country where time is short and there are safety issues, standards change. I don't climb to put up safe enjoyable routes (at least all the time), that's not my objective. I climb to climb, period. I'm just doing what I have to do to pass through more or less. I'm not trying to put up a classic route so I can draw a topo and spray my name about, I'm just out climbing. If you come along and think the bolts are trash, you're more than welcome to replace them, but if you think I'm going out of my way to do so, you're out of your mind. I'm not being selfish or cheap, I just don't care if you or anyone else climb my route. There's plenty of other things to climb out there.

I don't think we differ so much in our two points of view. I fully understand your opinion of buttonheads and why you've developed that opinion. My back yard is Yosemite and I'm no stranger to mank fixed gear. I think it's more the environment we both climb in. In most areas, the highest standards should be used in equipping routes, I agree. However, to suggest that this high standard be applied to everywhere regardless is ludicrous. This is where we disagree, there are always exceptions to the rule. That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge.


blueshrimp


Jan 7, 2009, 4:00 AM
Post #45 of 91 (6514 views)
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:

That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge.

Boooorrriiing....


dingus


Jan 7, 2009, 7:13 AM
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Re: [blueshrimp] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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blueshrimp wrote:
salamanizer wrote:

That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge.

Boooorrriiing....

You poor baby!

DMT


Maddhatter


Jan 7, 2009, 8:10 AM
Post #47 of 91 (6497 views)
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Re: [salamanizer] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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"there are always exceptions to the rule. That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge."


Yes, There is almost always one fat * chick at the party that is just to fun to be around and has a pretty face after a few beers.
You still wake up the next day going "WTF did I do"
( * Add dude and not chick if your into dudes)

Your not going to get me to say button heads are good pro. It's just not going to happen. As long as where you climb the people are ok with what you do, Then it is what it is. You should still be clear that they should only be placed in HARD granite and even then only on lead. I haven't even went into the crap hangers you have to use with button heads!!


I mean no disrespect to the climber that died and got this post started. May he R.I.P.
How the Fuck does a nut just "come off"? Wrong thread count or size nut? I get the feeling there is more to this story. Some one close to this place should fill in the blanks some. This is some scary shit!


ClimbSoHigh


Jan 7, 2009, 8:49 AM
Post #48 of 91 (6489 views)
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Re: [brownie710] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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100% in agreement. Everythime I think about it this I think of the opening to the movie "Idiocracy". We are in an age of reverse darwinism.

To stay on topic, I'm not against government geologists maintaining bolts and regulating thier replacement. its just not likely that the govt would spend any of its 31% GDP ($2,730,000,000,000 for 2008) on Climbers when we have no lobiests or boosters. They would rather bail out thier investments in GM or AIG or further investments in private military contractors and weapons manufacturers (mostly owned by congressmen...) Why would they help us if they can help themselves? Whoops, got of topic again slightly.

The most efficient way to keep bolts and fixed pro safest is mostly already being used. Most major cliffs/destinations have a devoted group of locals who form a coilition to maintain cliff access and change any fixed pro. This seems to be by far the most cost effective way and it keeps the gov't BS away from our sport. Thank god cliffs and climbing are not profitable...


salamanizer


Jan 7, 2009, 2:54 PM
Post #49 of 91 (6461 views)
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Re: [Maddhatter] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Maddhatter wrote:
As long as where you climb the people are ok with what you do, Then it is what it is. You should still be clear that they should only be placed in HARD granite and even then only on lead. I haven't even went into the crap hangers you have to use with button heads

Aah, now we're talkin, at least we're in agreement here... accept you should know that regular FIXE hangers work just fine with buttonheads. They're what I use at least.

Thread back on track...

My condolences to the family of our fallen brother.

I'll wait to hear the final definitive story (should it ever come out) before I make any comments.
Jumping to conclusions and theories is counterproductive.


gee


Jan 15, 2009, 3:46 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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http://www.onsight.com.au/...cident-what-happened

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