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Rock climbers reject regulation
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Partner robdotcalm


Jan 15, 2009, 7:41 PM
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Re: [gee] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Thank you for referencing that definitive report on the accident. We all have a responsibility not to create attractive hazards.

Condolences to the family and friends of the fallen climber.

RobertusPunctumPacificus


scottek67


Jan 15, 2009, 8:51 PM
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Re: [gee] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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thanks for posting that article that seemed quite accurate. my condolences to the friends and family as well. this forum is..."THE rock climbing community denies greater regulation of the sport is needed despite an experienced climber plunging to his death in the Blue Mountains." This shouldn't be about regulating climbing (if you want to climb a tree or a mountain that is your choice) but this should be about regulating the sale of anchor bolts. I saw a post on "how to install anchor bolts" and I didn't reply but it still gave me goose-bumps! I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing. I totally agree that if installed properly (proper size, strength, and proper installation techniques, etc) anchor bolts are "bomber". What I don't agree with is that any idiot with a hammer-drill can jump on a piece of rock and go to town installing anchor-bolts! I hear there are ethics like "place bolt every 3 metres" or "don't place a bolt next to a crack where pro can be used". I really don't care if there are bolts every 3 feet as long as they installed correctly! I am a sport climber mostly but just started buying trad gear (building my first rack) for the main reason that if I don't like the look of a bolt (sketchy, loose, rusted) I want to be able to protect myself, period. I might try and tighten a bolt if it's stainless and doesn't have a half inch of threads showing but I would never remove or chop a bolt. That's not my responsibility. My only responsibility would be to install a bolt correctly (if I chose to) for future climbers AND to protect myself. I have no intentions to ever bolt my own route and get my name in a guide-book because I've spent enough time on a hammer-drill and don't want to use one on a day off from work! There are enough bolted routes in this world for me! I believe anchor bolts should be like bullets. You should need proper certification to buy both. If you want to buy them on the black-market... fine. Just go bolt your backyard only!


captainstatic


Jan 16, 2009, 11:36 AM
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Re: [scottek67] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing.
The problem with your logic is that first your company paid for your training to get certified and second your company pays for liability insurance in case the anchor bolt fails for whatever reason. Thus certification would not be a workable situation for route development because even if you could afford the training you probably couldn't afford the insurance. The best advice regarding fixed protection is to view it as abandoned gear, assess the gear, and proceed according to your judgement of the adequacy of that gear. Regulation is no substitute for judgement and regulation in fact might provide a false sense of security and lead some to drop the guard of their judgement.


dingus


Jan 16, 2009, 12:05 PM
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Re: [scottek67] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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scottek67 wrote:
thanks for posting that article that seemed quite accurate. my condolences to the friends and family as well. this forum is..."THE rock climbing community denies greater regulation of the sport is needed despite an experienced climber plunging to his death in the Blue Mountains." This shouldn't be about regulating climbing (if you want to climb a tree or a mountain that is your choice) but this should be about regulating the sale of anchor bolts. I saw a post on "how to install anchor bolts" and I didn't reply but it still gave me goose-bumps! I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing. I totally agree that if installed properly (proper size, strength, and proper installation techniques, etc) anchor bolts are "bomber". What I don't agree with is that any idiot with a hammer-drill can jump on a piece of rock and go to town installing anchor-bolts! I hear there are ethics like "place bolt every 3 metres" or "don't place a bolt next to a crack where pro can be used". I really don't care if there are bolts every 3 feet as long as they installed correctly! I am a sport climber mostly but just started buying trad gear (building my first rack) for the main reason that if I don't like the look of a bolt (sketchy, loose, rusted) I want to be able to protect myself, period. I might try and tighten a bolt if it's stainless and doesn't have a half inch of threads showing but I would never remove or chop a bolt. That's not my responsibility. My only responsibility would be to install a bolt correctly (if I chose to) for future climbers AND to protect myself. I have no intentions to ever bolt my own route and get my name in a guide-book because I've spent enough time on a hammer-drill and don't want to use one on a day off from work! There are enough bolted routes in this world for me! I believe anchor bolts should be like bullets. You should need proper certification to buy both. If you want to buy them on the black-market... fine. Just go bolt your backyard only!

scottek - I have one question:

Are you certified to buy that trad rack?

If not, why not?

DMT


blondgecko
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Jan 16, 2009, 2:16 PM
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Re: [gee] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Wow.

Fuck.

I for one wouldn't be weeping if those guys were tracked down and charged with manslaughter. I hope that, at the very least, they hear about what their actions led to.


Partner robdotcalm


Jan 16, 2009, 3:05 PM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
scottek - I have one question:

Are you certified to buy that trad rack?

If not, why not?

DMT

I don't disagree with the notion that certification is impractical, but the big difference is that with a traditional rack, you are not creating an attractive hazard to endanger other people.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


kriso9tails


Jan 16, 2009, 7:19 PM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Climbing is not a Group Hug. Don't ever forget that.

What? I started climbing over fifteen years ago and just now I find out that I've been doing it for the wrong reason?

Climbing may not be a group hug, but it can often be a circle jerk.


scottek67


Jan 18, 2009, 7:14 AM
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Re: [captainstatic] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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This forum isn't about me. I just feel strongly about idiots improperly installing anchor bolts especially when I find out someone died as a result! I just wanted to address a couple issues with your reply, captainstatic. I am self-employed so I paid for my own training and school. I buy liability insurance in case I catch something on fire from using a plasma-cutter, welder, etc. I don't buy insurance in case an anchor-bolt fails because I've never seen one fail if installed correctly. They are over-engineered to prevent failure. If expansion type bolts (wedge-anchors) are installed correctly you cannot pull them out! You could only hammer them in flush or chop them. Certification would be a workable situation because the training is cheap and the insurance is also cheap. I don't think you need to insure anyway...I would just hope that people installing hardware learned the proper methods when in the future climbers lives are at risk using that same hardware. that's what this OP is about, right? Your "best advice" comment leads me to believe you didn't get why I started buying my own cams. Well Dingus... you are a dingus! If I place a cam my life is the only one at risk, period. I feel terrible that a life was lost because he assumed the asshole with the cordless hammer-drill knew what the fuck he was doing! anchors don't fuck up, people do.


scottek67


Jan 18, 2009, 7:17 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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well said, Rob. cheers to you.


mojomonkey


Feb 3, 2009, 5:48 AM
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Re: [blondgecko] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

A quote (translated) from the bolter:
In reply to:
“This kind of rock, sandstone, turns into a featureless mass of mud, sand, lichens and human sweat when the rain falls. It is impossible to climb on it as there is no friction (very different from limestone which is climbable when wet). Also the wet sandstone is prone to breaking. During our ascent some parts of route looked like we were climbing on a pile of ceramic tiles. You carefully grab a horizontal tile like hold (harder layers in sandwich between softer sand base) sticking out of a rock, you move up and when you step on it, it brakes, but you are already holding a next hold.”

“Grade of the route tells nothing about its complexity. We started climbing early in the morning after a few days of rain. Everything was slippery, breakable and full of mud. The worst thing is that the bolts are not holding in this soft rock. You place the bolt, apply the weight and it’s already turning. Some of them we could take out with a bare hand!”


(This post was edited by mojomonkey on Feb 3, 2009, 5:50 AM)


JAB


Feb 4, 2009, 5:33 AM
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Re: [mojomonkey] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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It seems the FA Boris Cujic is somewhat of a veteran (check out the pic in the gallery: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...dohoda_7a_22192.html). The fact that he knew the bolts were poor, but did not mention it to Simon Carter (who publishes the guide book) or any other local is negligent to say the least!


(This post was edited by JAB on Feb 4, 2009, 5:33 AM)


Senate156


Feb 4, 2009, 6:20 AM
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Re: [JAB] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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hmmm i smell a civil suit in the near future


Partner j_ung


Feb 4, 2009, 7:02 AM
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Re: [Senate156] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Across international lines? Can that work?


Gmburns2000


Feb 4, 2009, 7:33 AM
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mojomonkey wrote:
Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

A quote (translated) from the bolter:
In reply to:
“This kind of rock, sandstone, turns into a featureless mass of mud, sand, lichens and human sweat when the rain falls. It is impossible to climb on it as there is no friction (very different from limestone which is climbable when wet). Also the wet sandstone is prone to breaking. During our ascent some parts of route looked like we were climbing on a pile of ceramic tiles. You carefully grab a horizontal tile like hold (harder layers in sandwich between softer sand base) sticking out of a rock, you move up and when you step on it, it brakes, but you are already holding a next hold.”

“Grade of the route tells nothing about its complexity. We started climbing early in the morning after a few days of rain. Everything was slippery, breakable and full of mud. The worst thing is that the bolts are not holding in this soft rock. You place the bolt, apply the weight and it’s already turning. Some of them we could take out with a bare hand!”

Shocked

I just can't imagine why they continued to climb with the rain on sandstone. I know that some sandstone is harder than others, but this sounds as if it softened easily. You'd think that seven new routes on seven continents in one year would allow for them to take a few extra days to ensure the route and bolting was done properly (well, not that they would have bolted properly had they waited, but maybe waiting for the rock to dry would have at least helped to preserve the rock / route itself).

Does the fact that the rock was soft when many of the bolts were placed make a difference in the holding strength? Or is the holding strength merely a function of how it was placed?


Gmburns2000


Feb 4, 2009, 7:35 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.


dingus


Feb 4, 2009, 8:49 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT


Gmburns2000


Feb 4, 2009, 8:53 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT

I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that it is possible to sue across intl borders.


dingus


Feb 4, 2009, 9:03 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT


Gmburns2000


Feb 4, 2009, 9:33 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT

Heh. It's funny where amazing position reversals can come from.

I write my blog to be a sort of guide, so I hope that doesn't come back to haunt me.


Johnny_Fang


Feb 4, 2009, 10:53 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT

Dont forget that intentionality/due caution/neglect are all factors considered in lawsuits. I'd say this climb was bolted without due caution and with neglect. I could be wrong.

Regardless, after watching this video my lead-head on bolts is going to be complete fawked up for a long, long time.


Partner epoch
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Feb 4, 2009, 11:03 AM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Interjection:

Valarc posted a comment here: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2073230#2073230

regarding a post on Simon Carter's blog with this.


k.l.k


Feb 4, 2009, 11:26 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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robdotcalm wrote:
dingus wrote:
scottek - I have one question:

Are you certified to buy that trad rack?

If not, why not?

DMT

I don't disagree with the notion that certification is impractical, but the big difference is that with a traditional rack, you are not creating an attractive hazard to endanger other people.


Really? What if I put up two multi-pitch routes side-by-side on Sierra granite, one following a thin seam, protected by #0 RPs and a couple of marginal blades.

Fifty feet to the right, I put up a mirror route on the slab, placing buttonheads on lead.

The gear on the second is probably a lot freakin stronger than the gear on the first. Why would it be an attractive hazard and thus irresponsible?


acorneau


Feb 4, 2009, 12:16 PM
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Re: [mojomonkey] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

Very scary how easily some of those bolts came out!

I'm curious why they didn't re-equip the route with proper hardware? (This seems like a prime candidate for glue-in bolts.) Is the route too dangerous because of the sharp edges, or just too poor quality of a route, perhaps?

Sad story, though. Unsure


(This post was edited by acorneau on Feb 4, 2009, 12:17 PM)


mojomonkey


Feb 4, 2009, 12:42 PM
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acorneau wrote:
mojomonkey wrote:
Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

Very scary how easily some of those bolts came out!

I'm curious why they didn't re-equip the route with proper hardware? (This seems like a prime candidate for glue-in bolts.) Is the route too dangerous because of the sharp edges, or just too poor quality of a route, perhaps?

Sad story, though. Unsure

I have no personal knowledge on the quality or worth of the line, but here is Simon's response (on chockstone) to whether the route will be rebolted:
In reply to:
No. Sorry. Absolutely not. That route is one of the most worthless piles of rubbish I have ever seen in my life. I imagine (or hope) that it could have only ever been a visiting climber, who cared nothing for the quality of they did, would ever seriously consider putting a "route" up there.

I can't find where, but another thread discussion indicated in softer tones that the rock was poor quality and the line forced in just because there was some room for an FA.


Partner cracklover


Feb 4, 2009, 1:07 PM
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Wow. Just, wow. What a sad, sad story.

My condolences to the bereaved, and shame on the FA team.

GO

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