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Partner j_ung


Feb 4, 2009, 2:27 PM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

I agree. But assuming the info we have is correct, I still think these guys shouldn't be utter and completely ashamed of their actions.


mojomonkey


Feb 4, 2009, 3:09 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers. They were easily removed by other parties investigating later.

The climber got off route, fell, his rope was cut, and he fell to his death.

It was the team's judgment to follow what turned out to be the wrong line.

The bolters bear the responsibility of doing a poor job, and could fairly be considered reckless (wet sandstone and recommendations against their approach from locals). But talk of liability seems misguided.

IF the rope had not been cut, the consensus seems to be that the bolts would not have held. Perhaps the belayer would also have been pulled from the wall. The cut rope may have saved the belayer's life.

A very tragic situation.


patto


Feb 4, 2009, 3:54 PM
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Re: [mojomonkey] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers. They were easily removed by other parties investigating later.

The climber got off route, fell, his rope was cut, and he fell to his death.

It was the team's judgment to follow what turned out to be the wrong line.

The bolters bear the responsibility of doing a poor job, and could fairly be considered reckless (wet sandstone and recommendations against their approach from locals). But talk of liability seems misguided.

IF the rope had not been cut, the consensus seems to be that the bolts would not have held. Perhaps the belayer would also have been pulled from the wall. The cut rope may have saved the belayer's life.

A very tragic situation.

It was my understanding that the climber was clipping a bolt (and presumabl transferring weight onto it) when it came out and he fell. Some blame has to be levelled at the bolt.

Either way I would not wholely object to charges of criminal negligence being brought upon these bolters.

Sure none of us want to see law suits however if you place bolts as bad as that you might as well be building pit traps along walking paths with sharpened stakes in the bottom.


JAB


Feb 5, 2009, 4:38 AM
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Re: [mojomonkey] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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mojomonkey wrote:
Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers.

In fact you missed it. The climber weighted a bolt, which failed, with the result that he fell over a sharp ledge which cut the rope.


mojomonkey


Feb 5, 2009, 5:14 AM
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Re: [JAB] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
mojomonkey wrote:
Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers.

In fact you missed it. The climber weighted a bolt, which failed, with the result that he fell over a sharp ledge which cut the rope.

Thanks for the clarification.


roadstead


Feb 5, 2009, 6:50 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT

Climbing as we know it died 20 years...this is just the DEATH rattle.


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 6:55 AM
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Re: [roadstead] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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roadstead wrote:
dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT

Climbing as we know it died 20 years...this is just the DEATH rattle.

Nah. It's certainly evolved but the basic premise of American climbing built on the first ascent and grass roots style reporting - is alive and well.

I think for this basic model to survive even one more generation we as climbers must:
1. Respect the first ascent
2. Respect LOCAL ethics
3. Reject (and SHOUT DOWN) any liability suits that threaten this basic independance.

For example, while I admire the belayer kid who held the rope and save his partner but died himself, in the infamous Glacier Point rock fall? I think the lawsuit his parents attempted against the NPS was bullshit and I was gratified to see it dismissed. I feel for their loss but their son ACCEPTED THE RISKS by doing the deed and they had no business at all suing the park service. As a parent I think I can understand at least part of their pain though.

I like modern climbing and modern climbers just fine, btw, from sport to boulder to trad. Most of em never get more than a 1/2 a mile from the nearest road so its easy enough to avoid em when I'm feeling anti-social (which is most of the time hehe)

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 5, 2009, 6:59 AM)


shockabuku


Feb 5, 2009, 7:13 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Wow. Just, wow. What a sad, sad story.

My condolences to the bereaved, and shame on the FA team.

GO

I don't get this. Now we're judging the FAs style but in 100 other threads the FAs decisions are considered unquestionable????


JAB


Feb 5, 2009, 7:18 AM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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I really think you are looking at this as being only black or white, dingus. Even if these guys were held liable for the bolting, I don't think any other bolter should get worried. Remember the facts:

* The bolters used bolts that were not suitable for climbing
* The bolters were told not to use those bolts by local climbers, but did so anyway
* The bolters knew the bolts they put in were worthless (they mentioned on their home forum that they could take some out by hand)
* They named the route and sent in a topo the the guidebook producer, making no mention of bad bolts

I think any jury would see quite a big difference between the above case and a case of a rusty 30 year old peg braking after fallen on.


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 7:21 AM
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Re: [JAB] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
I really think you are looking at this as being only black or white, dingus. Even if these guys were held liable for the bolting, I don't think any other bolter should get worried. Remember the facts:

* The bolters used bolts that were not suitable for climbing
* The bolters were told not to use those bolts by local climbers, but did so anyway
* The bolters knew the bolts they put in were worthless (they mentioned on their home forum that they could take some out by hand)
* They named the route and sent in a topo the the guidebook producer, making no mention of bad bolts

I think any jury would see quite a big difference between the above case and a case of a rusty 30 year old peg braking after fallen on.

JAB... just the ligit threat of getting sued would curtail most FA teams from reporting. I don't know about you but I cannot afford to defend a suit based upon something I may havde done on a route five years ago.

And I don't trust a jury's common sense the way you do.

Lastly if one suit is successful, some lawyers will make note and the ambulance chase will be ON. A new law practice specialty will be born - climbers suing climbers.

To prevent this eventuality we'd have to go the way of Scuba. I don't want that.

Cheers my friend
DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 5, 2009, 7:23 AM)


Partner cracklover


Feb 5, 2009, 12:15 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Wow. Just, wow. What a sad, sad story.

My condolences to the bereaved, and shame on the FA team.

GO

I don't get this. Now we're judging the FAs style but in 100 other threads the FAs decisions are considered unquestionable????

I see no contradiction. I have plenty of respect for the style of an FA team. But that respect has its limits.

When the FA team puts up a route, that route expresses their vision on the rock. Some climbs show the boldness of the FA team, some show a great eye for reading a line. And from everything I've read, this one shows disrespect for the local ethic, a callous disregard for their fellow climbers, and a lot of poor decisions, including the decisions made not to inform anyone of their poor bolting job.

I'm not in favor of a lawsuit. I'm not in favor of regulation from outside the climbing community. But I'm very much in favor of the FA team being shunned by the climbing community. The fact that they put up an FA in no way justifies the arrogance and thoughtlessness that helped precipitate this tragedy.

GO


Partner j_ung


Feb 5, 2009, 12:19 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Wow. Just, wow. What a sad, sad story.

My condolences to the bereaved, and shame on the FA team.

GO

I don't get this. Now we're judging the FAs style but in 100 other threads the FAs decisions are considered unquestionable????

This seems quite a bit more serious to me than a question of style. This is a question of ethics through and through, and a case where the bolters acted selfishly and seemingly without any regard for others who might follow behind them. That, plus the victim's ultimate decision to climb are, IMO, equally responsible for the accident.

I'm with dingus in that there's actually a bigger picture here than it at first seems, and I don't want to see any type of lawsuit. But damn, I'd love to hear those guys have given up climbing forever in a fit of shame and guilt -- or that they will personally do something (dunno what) to make amends for their actions.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Feb 5, 2009, 12:19 PM)


JAB


Feb 7, 2009, 12:29 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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Just a heads up that one of the FA's have responded in a thread at ukclimbing. I could'nt find a way to link directly to the post, so go to this thread: http://www.ukc2.com/...php?t=340148&v=1 and search for "Boris Cujic".


scottek67


Feb 7, 2009, 6:46 PM
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Re: [JAB] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
Just a heads up that one of the FA's have responded in a thread at ukclimbing. I could'nt find a way to link directly to the post, so go to this thread: http://www.ukc2.com/...php?t=340148&v=1 and search for "Boris Cujic".

thanks for the link, JAB. lots of opinions and some good reading.


tradrenn


Feb 20, 2009, 8:25 PM
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Re: [suilenroc] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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suilenroc wrote:
You are totally off pace with Madd... Slow down, re read, re think. re post!

No he is not. You and Mad are, so please STFU.


tradrenn


Feb 20, 2009, 8:33 PM
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Re: [dingus] Rock climbers reject regulation [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Climbing is not a Group Hug. Don't ever forget that. There are many of us who would still be climbers if all the gyms and prana pants and instructors and rules and stainless steel bolts disappeared over night. This notion that all routes must be equipped for the lowest common denominator is bloody stupid.

DMT

I've been dreaming about it for about 3 years now, that would be a beautiful day.

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