And yet the poll doesn't lie. There are almost double the amount of people who don't want your dog there. Try to rationalize it all you want. You are imposing on well more than 1/2 the people at any crag you bring your dog too. I would venture to say, far more than 1/2.
In addition, why don;t we talk about the tards who bring their dogs to areas with BIG SIGNS EVERYWHERE saying No Dogs! Pay attention to peoples body language or just flat out open your ears and listen to them the next time you show up at the crag with your dog, very few people like dogs at crags. And this poll is proving it.
I agree, the people who bring their dogs places that are forboden to the hunds are morons.
But guess what else: I really don't give a shit if you want my dog there or not. Sorry. Thats not to say I will let my dog what she want, go up to you, step on your rope or eat your sandwich (even if you did throw it away on the trail). I will be respectful and so will my dog. But I'm not there to please you. I'm there to enjoy myself with my partner and my dog. If its legal its going to happen. Sorry. These areas are multi-use, and your right to enjoy the area without a dog is just as great as my right to enjoy the area with my dog. As long as its legal that is.
Again, sorry. I do everything I can to minimize my dog's impact on your day, but if its legal she's coming with me. And you know what- I can almost guaran-fucking-tee that you'll do things that annoy the piss out of me. Probably more than my dog sitting next to me basking in the sun. Way more. And guess what- I'll deal and have a fabulous day none-the-less. Grow up. Your enjoyment is in your hands and nobody elses.
Yup, no impact to me or others from your dog being at the crag is there?
--------------------------------------------------------- Dogs: A Continued Access Problem in Red River Gorge, KY (07/16/2007)
By Bill Strachan, Executive Director, Red River Gorge Climbers’ Coalition
Muir Valley Nature Preserve is a 400-acre piece of private land with 7+ miles of cliff line near Red River Gorge, Kentucky that the owners, Rick and Liz Weber, have graciously opened for climbing development. Upon opening the area to climbing they institute the following rule with regards to dogs:
“Dogs must be kept on leashes at all times everywhere in Muir Valley. They must be restrained at the base of climbs such that they cannot interfere with and/or distract belayers or damage plants in the area”
Due to continuing problems with dogs at Muir Valley, Rick Weber posted the following announcement on the www.redriverclimbing.com website:
“Effective January 1, 2008, dogs will no longer be permitted in Muir Valley. This date can and will be moved up if flagrant infractions and incidents continue. Until then, dog owners who disregard the leash rule will lose visitor privileges.
Rick”
Climbers not following the dog rule at Torrent Falls were one of the primary reasons that public access to climbing there was closed. Again, we are reminded of why it is important know and follow all rules when climbing in the Red River Gorge area regardless of whether on public or private land. If these rules are ignored, more restrictions or even closure may follow.
I've bolded the points veganclimber wants you to ignore:
roughster wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------- Dogs: A Continued Access Problem in Red River Gorge, KY (07/16/2007)
By Bill Strachan, Executive Director, Red River Gorge Climbers’ Coalition
Muir Valley Nature Preserve is a 400-acre piece of private land with 7+ miles of cliff line near Red River Gorge, Kentucky that the owners, Rick and Liz Weber, have graciously opened for climbing development. Upon opening the area to climbing they institute the following rule with regards to dogs:
“Dogs must be kept on leashes at all times everywhere in Muir Valley. They must be restrained at the base of climbs such that they cannot interfere with and/or distract belayers or damage plants in the area”
Due to continuing problems with dogs at Muir Valley, Rick Weber posted the following announcement on the www.redriverclimbing.com website:
“Effective January 1, 2008, dogs will no longer be permitted in Muir Valley. This date can and will be moved up if flagrant infractions and incidents continue. Until then, dog owners who disregard the leash rule will lose visitor privileges.
I bolded the key point there. Access was lost because climbers did not follow the rules. It wasn't just dogs either. The owners had a lot of complaints, such as the language offending their guests and people crapping anywhere they felt like.
And the rationalizations continue. Do you know that most states, county, and cities have blanket Leash Laws or "At large" laws. Guess how often those are broken aka every dog owner every time they take their dog off their property.
If you see a dog off the leash, it is pretty much a guarantee you are breaking local law, either state, county, city, or park/managing agency. So now how many of you ALWAYS have your dog on a leash? And it has been upheld several times, On the Leash is defined as being held by the owner. Tying the leash off is considered tethering an animal, and that is also illegal on most public lands.
So please, try to rationalize it all you want, most people don't want dogs there, dog routinely cause issues at areas they do have access to either by their presence or by fault of their (and almost all) dog owners, most dog owners knowingly break the law by letting their dog off the leash, and finally...
...if you are a law abiding dog owner, is your dog really having that much fun hanging out with you at the crag on a leash while you can't climb because you are law abiding and are holding the other end of the leash? Or do you climb in 3s so someone in your group always holds the leash while someone climbs and the other belays?
Oh wait, I found another hidden message. Maybe this really is a pro-dog memo:
roughster wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------- Dogs: A Continued Access Problem in Red River Gorge, KY (07/16/2007)
By Bill Strachan, Executive Director, Red River Gorge Climbers’ Coalition
Muir Valley Nature Preserve is a 400-acre piece of private land with 7+ miles of cliff line near Red River Gorge, Kentucky that the owners, Rick and Liz Weber, have graciously opened for climbing development. Upon opening the area to climbing they institute the following rule with regards to dogs:
“Dogs must be kept on leashes at all times everywhere in Muir Valley. They must be restrained at the base of climbs such that they cannot interfere with and/or distract belayers or damage plants in the area”
Due to continuing problems with dogs at Muir Valley, Rick Weber posted the following announcement on the www.redriverclimbing.com website:
“Effective January 1, 2008, dogs will no longer be permitted in Muir Valley. This date can and will be moved up if flagrant infractions and incidents continue. Until then, dog owners who disregard the leash rule will lose visitor privileges.
When I am climbing, my dog is on belay, in as safe an environment possible. First thing I do upon getting to the route base is secure him.
When might he NOT be on leash? - In Camp Slime when it's not a time others are eating. - When we are doing trailwork. - When I am in transit between climbs at the cliffside trails, on the approach slopes or on the carriage road beyond the busy section - When I am hiking
Do I know this is against the rules? YES! I DO! Call me a scofflaw!
He is NOT allowed out of my eyesight, and he knows this. Sometimes he tries to go wandering, especially when people are calling him over to them. I wish they wouldn't do this. But, they do. Usually I notice this fairly quickly, stop what I am doing and go over and chat a minute and bring him back to us.
Personally, it bothers me a lot when another dog comes over when I am climbing or belaying and gobbles up all Teddy's water, and then won't leave. Usually, the person is just down the way and I yell over "Can you get your dog?"
Usually, they call Rover over, and Rover goes over. End of story.
Sometimes the person is not around - this bothers me. But it happens about 2 times a year. At the Gunks, which is a really busy place.
It doesn't happen enough that I would be ranting about it on the internet though..... Most people, I have found, are good about their dogs. I am sorry for those who have what must be a much larger population of unsavory dogs and handlers.
This question should not be "Yes" or "No." Like all else, it depends.
If you are:
* willing to secure your dog at all times (leashed, secured to a tree, or to an anchor you build, or whatever,) and
* you do so in a fashion that won't cause undue difficulty for other climbers (i.e., they don't have to walk around where your dog is laying, or the tie-off is short enough that the dog can't wander over to bother anyone,) and
* you're willing to pick up your dog's poop, and
* you are willing to move your dog if a climber wants to do a route next to your dog, and
* you provide the dog water and shade at the crag, and
* you immediately correct your dog if it growls, barks, nips at, lunges for, or otherwise shows any aggression to any person at all, and
* so forth and so forth and so on and so on...
THEN I have no problems with your dog at the crag.
all of these, plus no digging.
and, honestly, i don't want your dog just coming up and licking me either, or putting its nose up my butt, on a leash or not.
i almost got caught in a dog fight at the red last fall. i was just finishing the approach to solar collector, and there were already several unleashed dogs at the crag. coinciding with me reaching the shelf of dirt in front of the rock, *another* dog surged up from behind me, knocked me into a pair of dogs that was standing at the top of the trail, and then proceeded to go after them from around my leg. now, i weigh about 112 lbs. and each of those dogs prolly weighed 40-50 lbs. now how does everybody think that it felt to be in a dogfight sammich?
or how about the time we were at mill creek in utah, and a PAIR of climbers had *11* dogs, including 8 or 9 that had to have topped 79 lbs and one puppy. and they were all digging holes to lay in. what.the.fuck.
(This post was edited by clausti on Feb 16, 2009, 5:33 PM)
I hear a lot of people complaining about dogs on the internet. I have never seen anybody actually complain at the crag. I happen to like seeing dogs there. Never had a problem with one, or seen a dog cause problems for anybody else.
I have, but even if I hadn't, many people can be quite non-confrontational and don't complain face to face. They just brood silently until they get home where they can complain about it on the internet... (nothin' against that mind you; we all need a little catharsis now and then).
The fact that there are currently over seventy votes in this poll and that it has not once dipped in favor of dogs at the crag is, if nothing else, indicative that more than a fringe minority of climbers don't like dogs at the crag.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Feb 16, 2009, 5:34 PM)
I hear a lot of people complaining about dogs on the internet. I have never seen anybody actually complain at the crag. I happen to like seeing dogs there. Never had a problem with one, or seen a dog cause problems for anybody else.
I have, but even if I hadn't many people can be quite non-confrontational and don't complain face to face.
::raises hand:: oh, i'm confrontational enough! i have most definitely asked people to leash their dogs, call of their dogs, or move their dogs. among other things, i *really* don't like getting licked by dogs.
In reply to:
I happen to like seeing dogs there. Never had a problem with one, or seen a dog cause problems for anybody else.
come climb at the red sometime. it is occasionally downright awful. 6 unleashed dogs in a dust bowl at a crag 60 feet wide. it happens.
(This post was edited by clausti on Feb 16, 2009, 5:35 PM)
And yet the poll doesn't lie. There are almost double the amount of people who don't want your dog there. Try to rationalize it all you want. You are imposing on well more than 1/2 the people at any crag you bring your dog too. I would venture to say, far more than 1/2.
Yes, it does lie. I am only imposing on the well over half of people in the RC.com echo chamber who had nothing better to do than bitch about dogs. I have never read of an accident caused by an errant dog. Mellow out.
In 15+ yrears of climbing, I can't think of one time a dog at a crag has really bothered me. Sure I've had to chase a couple away from my pack or food, but really not a big issue for me. I love 'em...well behaved, less well behaved, leashed, roaming, small, big...bring 'em!
There are no bad crag dogs, only bad crag dog owners. If you as the owner, don't have complete confidence in your dog's ability to not pee on people's belongings, shit on the trail, step on people's rope, or chase other dogs, than you have no business bring them.
But, animals are animals, and even a well behaved dog might make a mistake. As long as the owner is going to take full responsibility for that mistake (i.e. buy someone a new backpack if it's peed on), then fine.
I will not punish my dog for your mistake. and I sure as shit am not holding the leash. In the middle of a fight I let them go till its over. So come to Georgia and let if off the leash if you want. Follow the rules here. Or leave it at home.
Are you serious? Why the hell would you drop the leash? This makes breaking the fight up marginally more difficult (only marginally b/c dog fights are easy to break up anyway).
If my dog somehow gets out of my control, runs up to your dog, and a fight ensues, you're just going to let it happen?!? Wow, way to go dumbass.
Again here I agree with reno that that is seriously irresponsible. I'd likely break up the fight and then cuss you out.
ha, have you ever seen a real dog fight... I think not.
Yeah, I've seen several "real" dog fights. They still are not more than marginally difficult to break up; the key is distracting them. Just don't put your hands in there. Either walk between them, clap or make some noise, or pull on their hind legs. It does require people that know what they're doing, but it isn't super difficult.
Mayhaps you haven't seen one broken up correctly?
If you really think that will work all the time you are Mistaken.
This thread just has too much classic idiotic material, I feel like Nancy Pelosi's daughter at a McCain rally!
ShibbyShane wrote:
Either walk between them, clap or make some noise, or pull on their hind legs. It does require people that know what they're doing, but it isn't super difficult.
1 - grab the tail or back leg of your dog. 2 - Be prepared, for the dog now thinks you have attacked it. It will let go of the other dog in order to turn around and get the new threat(you). 3 - Get your dog's focus as you grab his collar. 4 - Hope to hell the persom who's dog is on the other end of the fight does the same.
Do NOT try to put your dog up in the air to get it away from the other. It'll egg the fighter on. If no one is there to help, you are going to have to be the Alpha dog, and in your most NASTY GROWLING voice, growl - "NO!!!!" Show teeth if it helps you get the effect. Hope the dog ain't a nut (most aren't) because....you won't win against a dog of medium size.
Edit: The hind leg thing IS the key. Back in the day, when men were men, I suppose.... the suggested way to get control was (get ready, this is squeamish) to stick your finger you know where(up there).
Yes, it is true! I have seen in in BITD training manuals for working dogs.
Now I don't know why they felt they needed to go THAT far... I guess dogs were dogs back in the day too, and a leg grab wouldn't get their attention as much as...that.
(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Feb 16, 2009, 7:02 PM)
In Georgia its a law to leash your dog. If you dont follow the rules. Which I do. I will not punish my dog for your mistake. and I sure as shit am not holding the leash. In the middle of a fight I let them go till its over. So come to Georgia and let if off the leash if you want. Follow the rules here. Or leave it at home.
No, you're not following the law. While a leash may still be attached to your dog's collar, you're still releasing the dog from your control for the purpose of attacking another dog.
Oh wait, I found another hidden message. Maybe this really is a pro-dog memo:
roughster wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------- Dogs: A Continued Access Problem in Red River Gorge, KY (07/16/2007)
By Bill Strachan, Executive Director, Red River Gorge Climbers’ Coalition
Muir Valley Nature Preserve is a 400-acre piece of private land with 7+ miles of cliff line near Red River Gorge, Kentucky that the owners, Rick and Liz Weber, have graciously opened for climbing development. Upon opening the area to climbing they institute the following rule with regards to dogs:
“Dogs must be kept on leashes at all times everywhere in Muir Valley. They must be restrained at the base of climbs such that they cannot interfere with and/or distract belayers or damage plants in the area”
Due to continuing problems with dogs at Muir Valley, Rick Weber posted the following announcement on the www.redriverclimbing.com website:
“Effective January 1, 2008, dogs will no longer be permitted in Muir Valley. This date can and will be moved up if flagrant infractions and incidents continue. Until then, dog owners who disregard the leash rule will lose visitor privileges.
Rick”
Dogs must retrain belayers with permitted leash rules? Is this someone's way of saying crag dogs need to give tighter belays? I like a loose belay, so I think I'll leave my dogs at home when I go to RRG.
1 - grab the tail or back leg of your dog. 2 - Be prepared, for the dog now thinks you have attacked it. It will let go of the other dog in order to turn around and get the new threat(you). 3 - Get your dog's focus as you grab his collar. 4 - Hope to hell the persom who's dog is on the other end of the fight does the same.
Edit: The hind leg thing IS the key. Back in the day, when men were men, I suppose.... the suggested way to get control was (get ready, this is squeamish) to stick your finger you know where(up there)
Right....distract YOUR dog so the other one can go for the throat. I think not.
I had a 90 lb female rescue dog that was sweet as pie with people but loved to fight other dogs because of previous experiences. If you would have grabbed her by the back leg, you'd be going to the hospital. NO WAY you are going to move faster than a fighting dog's jaws. In her case, we kept her away from other dogs (duh), and used a halti collar. One time some moron let their German Shepherd run up to her despite my vigorous warning, she let him have it and I didn't stop her. His posture was semi-aggressive and I wasn't about to hinder her from defending herself. She was way too big to pick up so they went at it, for about 2 seconds Mr. cocky young shepherd learned some manners that day. The guy was pissed at ME, I told him he was lucky I didn't let her kill him, but it's not the dog's fault YOU are stupid.
Keep your dog ON A LEASH, just because you love them doesn't mean everyone else does. If I want to pet your pooch I'll approach you.
I hear a lot of people complaining about dogs on the internet. I have never seen anybody actually complain at the crag. I happen to like seeing dogs there. Never had a problem with one, or seen a dog cause problems for anybody else.
I have. I was climbing at a nearby state park (Crow Hill area) where there are often plenty of hikers walking past the cliffs. A father and his young daughter (maybe about 7 or 8 years old) were hiking past. She had a fear of dogs and wouldn't continue unless the dog was leashed. The dog wasn't really doing anything (it was a good dog), but the owner was belaying and couldn't get the dog on a leash. The dog owner called the dog over, and the dog kind of responded, but never really got close enough to be put on a leash. Instead, it kind of stood in the same general area without doing anything.
So the father and daughter started to walk slowly past, trusting the dog owner that the dog was OK (again, it really was a good dog) and keeping about ten feet away (moving to the opposite side of the trail from the dog).
The dog, being curious and friendly, walked slowly toward them. The girl screamed. The dog was startled by her screaming, growled very faintly, and barked. The father pepper sprayed the dog. The dog retreated to its really pissed off owner. The father and daughter continued on, unapologetically.
Did the father overreact? I don't think so. The dog wasn't doing anything, but the father was protecting his daughter. I think I would have done the same.
::raises hand:: oh, i'm confrontational enough! i have most definitely asked people to leash their dogs, call of their dogs, or move their dogs. among other things, i *really* don't like getting licked by dogs.
Quelle surprise (what with your meek demeanor in the forums and all). That's a good thing though; I have a hard time picturing you as the type to get easily walked over by foot of man or paw of dog.
I'm pretty easy going and will simply inform people that I don't appreciate their dog's behavior when it's inappropriate. I will insist if the owners are not responsive. Where it totally crosses the line is when people give me that 'chill, it's just a dog' attitude. It's not just about the do dog; it's about respect.
Although the dog's/ owner's behavior itself can be enough. Here's the start of the list of phrases that shitty dog owners have rendered meaningless: -Don't worry; he's friendly. -Don't worry; he's well trained. -Don't worry; he doesn't bite. -Don't worry; he's just saying hello. -Don't worry... (I'm not worrying. I just want some fucking space fer chissakes) -He just likes you. (So what? I like that girl in the sports bra with the pretty face, cute smile and tight abs, but I at least asked her first if it was okay to slobber all over her) -Oh, it's just a dog; he doesn't know any better -(meaningless to their dog, apparently)Sit, stay, heel, stay out of there you, bad dog, etc.
That's not to say there aren't many good dog owners, but forgive me if I let actions speak louder than words in this case.
69 /
36%
Mr. cocky young shepherd learned some manners that day. The guy was pissed at ME, I told him he was lucky I didn't let her kill him, but it's not the dog's fault YOU are stupid. 
