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rgold
Feb 15, 2009, 7:09 PM
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It is a little-appreciated fact that no belay plate is likely to be able to hold falls approaching fall-factor 1 (and in general quite a bit smaller) without rope slippage. The reasons are fairly simple: belayer grip strength varies from about 35 lbf to 90 lbf, depending on the widely varying strength of the individual's hand, the diameter of the rope involved, treatements of the rope that reduce external friction and internal resistance to bending, and condition of the rope in terms of fuzzing, grit, and moisture. An ATC-XTP with a low-10mm rope provides a force-multiplying factor of between roughly 10 and 7 (the multiplier decreases slightly as the hand strength increases), giving rise to a breaking power of between roughly 300 lbf and 600 lbf. Doubling the carabiners used to increase rope pinching gives rise to roughly a 20% increase in braking power, giving a range of roughly 320 lbf to 720 lbf. Fall forces arriving at the belayer higher than that will cause slippage, after a brief "inertial" effect of pulling the braking hand up to the belay plate and slightly raising the belayer. If friction against the rock or in the protection system does not intervene (as it usually does in practice), then very modest falls will result in rope slippage at the belay.
The fact that this doesn't happen all the time is a testament, not to the competence of belayers, but rather to the amount of friction inherent in most protection systems and rock configurations. People who are confident in their ability to hold longish falls without rope slippage may have been misled by the prevalence of favorable conditions. Gloves are really an essential ingredient in safe belaying, if by that one means the ability to respond effectively to not only the usual situations but also the unusual ones. The failure of the climbing community in general to use gloves is an indication of an almost univerally misplaced confidence in real braking ability. These claims have been tested over and over in all kinds of situations and are as indisputable as any evidence we have in climbing.
What then do we make of claims about massive sport falls being held in extremely low friction conditions with no belay slippage? Well, most sport climbing being a pitch, nothing I would call a "massive" fall is possible, since the fall factor has to be less than 1. Secondly, many of the sport falls are probably a lower fall-factor than one might think, because the overhanging nature of the route means there is more rope out than one might guess. Moreover, a fall from a severely overhanging pitch can't be clearly estimated by the rope out from the nearest draw. A climber on a 45 degree overhang who is twenty feet out from their last draw is going to drop 28 feet before the rope begins to engage, not 40 feet (with a pendulum in too of course). And finally, climbers are going to estimate fall length (who is actually any good at that?) by the fall length plus the rope stretch, which can be considerable. So all the factors in these situation tend to overestimate the fall factor.
Admittedly, not all of this applies to the report of stopping a factor 1.76 fall without slippage. But ancecdotes about this or that fall aside, we don't have any body of reliable information on these situations, and on the other side there are also a number of published reports of belayers getting rope burns stopping long falls, as well as a few cases when control has been lost. At best one can conclude from anecdotal evidence that there is a tremendous range of slippage outcomes in the field, and we can't typically look back to see if there were unanticipated sources of friction or other circumstances that might have reduced the belayer load when slippage did not occur.
What we do know is that, first of all, there is nothing in the mechanical properties of non-locking belay devices that make it reasonable to imagine that slippage will not occur, and secondly, that every attempt to test the situation, with both weights and human fallers, results in rope slippage.
All this said, not being able to hold a factor 0.3 fall without slippage does seem a bit much.
However, gloves do reduce the hand's gripping ability, and heavy or stiff gloves are a distinctly bad idea. It is not only the thickness of the material, but also the resistance to finger flexion that matters. Specially made gloves with relatively thin leather and elastic material in back to lower resistance to bending are the best idea. Quite a few of these are made for sailing, and manufacturers such as Petzl make them for climbing.
Half ropes present the greatest challenge for belaying, since falls have to be caught on single strands of low diameter while also gripping a second strand, putting one in a lower grip-strength range, which gets even lower if the ropes are new and slippery. It is not at all unlikely that the braking threshold will be towards the lower end of the range mentioned above, even with double carabiners, which help but only a little. Moreover, when half ropes are used appropriately to straighten out rope paths, the decreased friction in the system will mean a higher load for the belayer.
Belay technique is also an issue, especially with half ropes. The need to manage two ropes semi-independently makes palm-up belaying, a hold-over from the hip belay that makes no biomechanical sense with ATC-type devices nonetheless attractive. Recalling that high-speed video analysis has shown that the braking hand is pulled towards and potentially up against the belay plate, one sees that the palm up position ultimately forces the belayer to abandon the final 180 degree rope bend emerging from the brake-hand side of the plate, thereby reducing braking friction at a time when the maximum is needed. Even before this ultimate abandonment, there is a strong tendency in either palm position to pivot at the elbow, bringing the rope into a less than maximal friction orientation.
By far the most obvious fix, although this is not part of any belay protocol I've seen, is to quit wasting an entire hand and learn protocols that provide two-handed braking. This is easy to do when one is aware that a fall may be imminent; it is less likely, but perhaps not impossible, to achieve if the fall happens suddenly and without warning. Surely the first step is to train oneself to shift the non-braking hand down fast in all situations.
Perhaps the real answer is to make better belay devices. The TRE was a distinct step in this direction (it utilized palm-up braking), and one might hope that improvements will yet come. In the meantime, standard ATC belay plates, whatever the hype, are really a mediocre solution.
For climbers who do not do a lot of lowering, it has become clear that the (apparently misnamed) Munter hitch is actually the best non-locking belay device, and in the case of double ropes has the advantage of palm-up belaying. However, independent rope control is virtually impossible if a single Munter hitch is formed with both ropes. In the case of half ropes, I think it worth experimenting with two Munter hitches, each on its own belay biner, something I've been thinking of trying a bit this Spring. This can't possibly be a new idea, however, so I suppose there will be disadvantages that are already known...
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billcoe_
Feb 15, 2009, 8:00 PM
Post #27 of 73
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To add what Rgold said on the belay device idea. I have not used a REverso 3. I have used the DMM Buggette and the DMM V-Twins with good effect on both the Joker and the smaller Metolius Doubles. (8.7mm?)
Doubling the carabiners will increase the friction. People who suggest otherwise do not know what they are talking about. With the a new V-Twin and brand new 8.7.s, the sharp notches of the V-twin can prematurely fuzz the sheath on the rope the friction is so good. However, for those long Red Rocks routes, like Epi, where you are topping out and not (hopefully) hangdogging at all, either should do the trick. I think Navy is wise to sort through all this early.
Good job.
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joeforte
Feb 15, 2009, 8:01 PM
Post #28 of 73
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USnavy wrote: So I just got my new set of Beal Joker 9.1 mm half / twin ropes in. Today I decided to give them a test drive on some sport routes. I am finding that in the half rope mode, they are extremely difficult to arrest a fall on.
I am having trouble understanding what you mean by "half rope mode". Are you clipping both ropes into each draw, or alternating clips? I don't see how it would be any different than catching a fall in "single rope mode", besides the fact that there are two ropes in your hand.
Which brings up the comment that there is 18.2mm of rope in your hand. Unless you are clipping them both, as twins, you are still only using 9.1mm of rope to catch the fall.
You definitely shouldn't need 2 belay 'biners. That sounds like a real easy way to short-rope your partner at the crux!
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justinboening
Feb 15, 2009, 8:09 PM
Post #29 of 73
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thank the lord, richard, for your thoroughness.
One thing I'd like to add to the thread is that the Joker is one of the LEAST durable ropes for use as a half rope. For those of you considering the Joker, or any other single/half rope for use primarily as a half, take a look towards something else like the 8.8 marathons or the Mammut genesis, which are both considerably more durable than the Joker and its ilk. The light single ropes out there, while amazing for their purpose, need a lot more of their alloted mass dedicated to core strands. The weight is saved, therefore, by slimming down the sheath fibers. Just another thing to consider in all of this.
(This post was edited by justinboening on Mar 4, 2009, 12:06 AM)
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altelis
Feb 15, 2009, 11:46 PM
Post #30 of 73
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Just outa curiosity, are you saying:
1) USNavy is going to kill himself for all the reasons in my post that you bolded
or
2) That I'm going to kill myself b/c all the things in my post that you bolded are wrong.
Pretty sure you meant 1, but not entirely sure......
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adatesman
Feb 16, 2009, 12:57 AM
Post #31 of 73
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rgold
Feb 16, 2009, 1:07 AM
Post #32 of 73
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Aric, I'm afraid all I have is that extinct link at this point. But I'm pretty sure palms up was correct; I certainly caught a bunch of falls that way.
For rappelling, you drop the rope over the slots and go palms down, but not for belaying. I think...
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adatesman
Feb 16, 2009, 1:21 AM
Post #33 of 73
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lemon_boy
Feb 16, 2009, 3:01 AM
Post #34 of 73
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ro\gold,
i love you to death man, but i don't even know any CHICKS who wear belay gloves. if you showed up somewhere in '74 with some cute metolius gloves and told somebody that you were wearing them to protect your hands while belaying, they would lock you in a ford pinto and push it out into oncoming traffic.
and USNavy, try to show some pride. what haven't you blamed yet for your lack of belay ability?
rope? check
belay device? check
rope? check...........
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jt512
Feb 16, 2009, 4:18 AM
Post #35 of 73
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AntinJ wrote: Ditch the gloves
There's some solid 1-star advice.
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jt512
Feb 16, 2009, 4:23 AM
Post #36 of 73
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vegastradguy wrote: USnavy wrote: That was kind of my though process with switching out to thinner gloves. Thin / light duty gloves will provide as much friction as no gloves but will provide some protection against minor rope slippage. The down side is they will not stand up to the slippage created by a high impact or high distance fall and high distance falls are not uncommon on multi-pitch routes. says the guy who has no multi-pitch experience. dude, big air is uncommon on multipitch terrain. if you think you're going to fall, chances are you've been sewing it up or there is a bolt close by- most cruxes on routes are protected. i've never fallen more than 15-20' on multipitch terrain. (this is assuming you're sticking to your plan of not climbing anything that isnt not run-out) also, something doesnt sound right about your belay setup- there should be no rope slippage with that thick of a double rope set up. i've caught a very high factor (1.76ish) fall bare handed on a pair of brand new 8.6mm with an old style reverso and a single locker and didnt notice any slippage, although i suspect there was some (i was pretty new at the time and i was a little freaked out by it). i've also caught falls on a single 9.2mm nano with my atc-guide and again, no noticeable slippage. i would 1) lose the gloves, they're obviously impairing your catching ability. either that, or get some sailing gloves. and 2) lose the extra biner (how the hell are you going whip rope out for a clip with two carabiners?)- thats only for extra friction when you're rappelling- its just going to be in the way when you're belaying. i think your problem is that you're assuming that these skinny lines are going to be harder than a regular line to use because each line is skinnier than your regular line. i'll say it again- you've got 18.2mm of rope in your hand- you should be able to catch any fall with a standard belay setup.
"Lose the gloves" for multipitch belaying is auto-1-star advice. Please read everything that rgold has written over and over again on this subject.
Jay
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shoo
Feb 16, 2009, 4:27 AM
Post #37 of 73
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jt512 wrote: "Lose the gloves" for multipitch belaying is auto-1-star advice. Please read everything that rgold has written over and over again on this subject. Jay
Mind providing some links? I'd like to read. Never been a fan of belay gloves myself, but I could be turned.
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jt512
Feb 16, 2009, 4:32 AM
Post #38 of 73
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shoo wrote: jt512 wrote: "Lose the gloves" for multipitch belaying is auto-1-star advice. Please read everything that rgold has written over and over again on this subject. Jay Mind providing some links? I'd like to read. Never been a fan of belay gloves myself, but I could be turned.
I don't have any links, and you can use the search as well as I can. But for a start, just look at rgold's post about 6 posts up in this very thread.
Jay
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vegastradguy
Feb 16, 2009, 4:46 AM
Post #39 of 73
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jt512 wrote: vegastradguy wrote: USnavy wrote: That was kind of my though process with switching out to thinner gloves. Thin / light duty gloves will provide as much friction as no gloves but will provide some protection against minor rope slippage. The down side is they will not stand up to the slippage created by a high impact or high distance fall and high distance falls are not uncommon on multi-pitch routes. says the guy who has no multi-pitch experience. dude, big air is uncommon on multipitch terrain. if you think you're going to fall, chances are you've been sewing it up or there is a bolt close by- most cruxes on routes are protected. i've never fallen more than 15-20' on multipitch terrain. (this is assuming you're sticking to your plan of not climbing anything that isnt not run-out) also, something doesnt sound right about your belay setup- there should be no rope slippage with that thick of a double rope set up. i've caught a very high factor (1.76ish) fall bare handed on a pair of brand new 8.6mm with an old style reverso and a single locker and didnt notice any slippage, although i suspect there was some (i was pretty new at the time and i was a little freaked out by it). i've also caught falls on a single 9.2mm nano with my atc-guide and again, no noticeable slippage. i would 1) lose the gloves, they're obviously impairing your catching ability. either that, or get some sailing gloves. and 2) lose the extra biner (how the hell are you going whip rope out for a clip with two carabiners?)- thats only for extra friction when you're rappelling- its just going to be in the way when you're belaying. i think your problem is that you're assuming that these skinny lines are going to be harder than a regular line to use because each line is skinnier than your regular line. i'll say it again- you've got 18.2mm of rope in your hand- you should be able to catch any fall with a standard belay setup. "Lose the gloves" for multipitch belaying is auto-1-star advice. Please read everything that rgold has written over and over again on this subject. Jay
i have, jay. i consider rgold's advice sound and solid as always. please note that i also suggested sailing gloves- which i believe may be a better choice due to less bulk. i personally dont wear gloves on multipitch climbing- because i dont really care to, i also believe they lessen my ability to control the rope, and i dont really climb routes where there's a lot of falling going on. the last multipitch route i climbed was also the first that i had fallen on in almost a year.
also, rgold- i actually suspect there was a fair bit of rope slippage on that catch, but as i was kind of freaked out and kind of new, i didnt really notice any. i also couldnt tell you the exact FF, but it was past belay with no pro, and almost a free-fall. that said, i wasnt wearing gloves and sustained no injuries...so take from that what you will.
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USnavy
Feb 16, 2009, 4:48 AM
Post #40 of 73
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I have learned quite a few things today after leading all day with my half-ropes.
1. My belay gloves are severely impairing my belayer’s ability to grab the rope. I found that a fall which produced two feet of rope slippage with my gloves produced no slippage with the belayer wore no gloves.
2. Simply attaching two carabiners is not enough. Both have to be attached to the belay loop. I noticed over a 30% increase in friction when I attached two carabiners to my belay loop versus one on my belay loop and the other only attached to my rope.
3. My ropes are simply hard to hold on being brand new. I used a Joker that is over a year old today and noticed it was exponentially easier to hold onto.
After my partner ditched the gloves and attached both biners into his belay loop he had no trouble holding my smaller falls.
However the issue regarding the gloves still remains. I don’t have to have taken a high impact fall or be a multi-pitch veteran to know extreme rope slippage on high impact falls is guaranteed to occur. That’s just general knowledge. Without gloves the climber would undoubtedly be dropped to the end of the rope (or ground) if he / she were to take a high impact fall or a long enough fall to cause the rope to start slipping though the belay device.
I have seen people try to grab a rope well it’s moving at high speed with no gloves and it’s absolutely impossible to control. The rope burn, in all cases, always causes them to let go or to loosen their grip to the point where they cannot stop the rope. So I still have some serious preference towards using gloves. I guess I will have to venture out and find the right gloves that don’t limit grip too much.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 16, 2009, 4:51 AM)
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majid_sabet
Feb 16, 2009, 4:50 AM
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altelis wrote: Just outa curiosity, are you saying: 1) USNavy is going to kill himself for all the reasons in my post that you bolded or 2) That I'm going to kill myself b/c all the things in my post that you bolded are wrong. Pretty sure you meant 1, but not entirely sure......
I am supporting your statement that the problem is not the plane but the pilot who is flying it. This pilot constantly post similar discoveries and in many times, he is the one who is directing the action without learning or understanding the concepts of how things work .
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USnavy
Feb 16, 2009, 5:06 AM
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joeforte wrote: USnavy wrote: So I just got my new set of Beal Joker 9.1 mm half / twin ropes in. Today I decided to give them a test drive on some sport routes. I am finding that in the half rope mode, they are extremely difficult to arrest a fall on. I am having trouble understanding what you mean by "half rope mode". Are you clipping both ropes into each draw, or alternating clips? I don't see how it would be any different than catching a fall in "single rope mode", besides the fact that there are two ropes in your hand. Which brings up the comment that there is 18.2mm of rope in your hand. Unless you are clipping them both, as twins, you are still only using 9.1mm of rope to catch the fall. You definitely shouldn't need 2 belay 'biners. That sounds like a real easy way to short-rope your partner at the crux!
The Jokers are UIAA certified to be used as a half, twin, or single rope. Thus by "half rope mode" I meant I was using them as half ropes and not twin ropes. My belayer has absolutely no problem holding onto them when I fall on them in the twin rope configuration.
And the second carabiner has no effect on my ability to feed rope out. I can feed slack out just as easy with two as with one.
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USnavy
Feb 16, 2009, 5:16 AM
Post #43 of 73
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lemon_boy wrote: ro\gold, i love you to death man, but i don't even know any CHICKS who wear belay gloves. if you showed up somewhere in '74 with some cute metolius gloves and told somebody that you were wearing them to protect your hands while belaying, they would lock you in a ford pinto and push it out into oncoming traffic. and USNavy, try to show some pride. what haven't you blamed yet for your lack of belay ability? rope? check belay device? check rope? check...........
hmmm... So you think gloves is completely useless and it would be redicouls to use them? Well why dont you find out for yourself. Next time you climb a multi-pitch route (assuming you even do) climb 10 feet above your belayer at the third pitch and peel off. You will find yourself 60 meters below the belay station before you even know what happened if your partner didn’t have gloves... I personally know someone who had this exact situation play out on one of his climbing adventures and he climbs 5.13 sport / 5.12 multi-pitch trad. That’s the exact reason why not wearing gloves on multi-pitch is a good way to gamble with your partner’s life and all the skin on your right hand...
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vegastradguy
Feb 16, 2009, 5:27 AM
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USnavy wrote: lemon_boy wrote: ro\gold, i love you to death man, but i don't even know any CHICKS who wear belay gloves. if you showed up somewhere in '74 with some cute metolius gloves and told somebody that you were wearing them to protect your hands while belaying, they would lock you in a ford pinto and push it out into oncoming traffic. and USNavy, try to show some pride. what haven't you blamed yet for your lack of belay ability? rope? check belay device? check rope? check........... hmmm... So you think gloves is completely useless and it would be redicouls to use them? Well why dont you find out for yourself. Next time you climb a multi-pitch route (assuming you even do) climb 10 feet above your belayer at the third pitch and peel off. You will find yourself 60 meters below the belay station before you even know what happened if your partner didn’t have gloves... I personally know someone who had this exact situation play out on one of his climbing adventures and he climbs 5.13 sport / 5.12 multi-pitch trad. That’s the exact reason why not wearing gloves on multi-pitch is a good way to gamble with your partner’s life and all the skin on your right hand...
while i doubt that scenario played out quite like that, if it did, i'm shocked he survived. but i'll also call bullshit on that being a direct consequence of not wearing gloves. could it happen- sure. will it happen- no way to know.
in my few years climbing, i've caught one high factor fall with no gloves and experienced another with my belayer not wearing gloves and in neither instance did the climber fall 60m. did rope slippage occur? most likely. did enough occur to injure the belayer? nope. not many people experience really high factor falls- i've been involved in two and no one got hurt in either. was i lucky? no doubt some luck played into it, but being prepared and attentive as a belayer also played a large role. in both instances the belayer saw the fall coming (sketchy starts to the pitches in both instances) and was able to prepare for it.
that said, gloves are NOT a bad thing. but not wearing them doesnt automatically translate to a death sentence, either.
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ryanb
Feb 16, 2009, 5:42 AM
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In reply to: However the issue regarding the gloves still remains. I don’t have to have taken a high impact fall or be a multi-pitch veteran to know extreme rope slippage on high impact falls is guaranteed to occur. That’s just general knowledge. Without gloves the climber would undoubtedly be dropped to the end of the rope (or ground) if he / she were to take a high impact fall or a long enough fall to cause the rope to start slipping though the belay device.
If you are not comfortable using a rope system you shouldn't. I generally feel fine going without gloves provided the belay device i am using is rated for the rope and used in the manner it was designed for.
A partner of mine took a 60 foot fall on a half rope being used as a single after he got off route on an alpine rock route in the cascades. Nso significant rope slip. He wanted to keep going but his partner (Colin Haley incidentally, before he made it big) insisted they go down.
Actually same guy took a 40 footer past the belay at Index last summer on a 9.2, breaking a fixed pin and a small tcu. The petite woman he was climbing with caught him fine with an atc (it may have been an atc xp).
And on the extreme end of the spectrum, Dean potter caught him self with bare hands on a fixed line when his shoot failed while base jumping in mexico.
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billcoe_
Feb 16, 2009, 5:44 AM
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USnavy wrote: 2. Simply attaching two carabiners is not enough. Both have to be attached to the belay loop. I noticed over a 30% increase in friction when I attached two carabiners to my belay loop versus one on my belay loop and the other only attached to my rope.
Holy crap, I just realized that when I was earlier saying that 2 carabiners increased the friction, I automatically assumed that you understood that to have meant "have clipped them both off onto the belay loop." So in the interest of being complete here: let me also state that the carabiners MUST be the same size to get this effect. Otherwise instead of being next to each other you have one on top of the other. This can be a critical issue while rapping off an overhang (especially without a glove!)
We might need to explore what you mean by half rope technique as someone posted earlier so that we're on the same page? I'm not sure why you want to use a 2 Jokers and climb them as half ropes. Lets see, reworking this, Twin rope technique means you are clipping every other piece, something even a skilled belayer can get worn out on if it's a long route. Use of 2 different colored ropes is common so the leader can say out on blue when they clip the blue rope over their head and the belayer must pay out the blue while keeping the other locked. For those long routes, where getting off may mean many long rappels and it can be a bitch with only 1 rope so you want 2, carrying the 2 Metolius 7.8's, as they are the lightest doubles made, (well, they were when I bought them) and climbing using double rope technique which is clipping both ropes to each piece, seems to be the best and easiest for me. Barring that, climbing on a single line and trailing another would be the next preference unless it's a zig-zagging line that moves some distance both ways each pitch. For Red Rocks, it seems like most of the routes are pretty straight up, and having long runners on pieces that are out of the plumb line is the way to go. To me anyway, of course, your results will vary, and maybe you have some routes picked out where the 1/2 rope technique is critical using the larger ropes so carrying the weight of 2 Jokers means something to you. Use of 2 is also seen in areas where ropes are more likely to be chopped by sharp edges as well, but using a 7.8 will get you the same benefits only lighter weight.
In the interest of fairness, plan on increasing the force on the piece and/or the anchor with the 2 carabiner technique. Rgold can probably go on for a long time on the benefits of a dynamic belay, but I'd highly recommend you just google it right now and read up on the last 50 years of belay theory and practice. I'm not joking either. A static belay may really screw you at some point, just remember that I said it even if I didn't spend 2 days typing up an Rgold or JT512 style complete treatise on it.
I often use 2 identical sized carabiners for rapping as it's the shizz when it gets steep or overhanging. Sometimes for belaying, but it's often dependent on many other factors for belaying. On occasion I may even use a single biner and a glove. 1 or 2 biners should be choices you think about beforehand based on many variable factors such as the intended route, belay equipment, gear and placement quality (small or large wireds?, well set or poor pro?) , and partner skill set. I could go on for pages on this issue alone but consider that even a strong sport climber as a partner who likes to say "take" and hang periodically, and has conditioned his mind that pieces like the bolts he commonly rests on all this time will hold all the time, may be a huge liability as its just a bad bad idea to do this on some gear only routes. Imagine a long day, partner dude does this very thing on a marginal small wired nut and the resulting fall after only a single piece pulls out has dude hitting the ledge which he wasn't thinking about at all because he had that piece in. Now your partner is screwed up and you need to get him off high up on some big-assed route in the middle of no f*ingwhere safely and it's late in the day.
Furthermore, you may even chose to employ 2 biners only one pitch of a multi-pitch route. Say partner has a great piece, is obviously going to crux at his limit on a steep line and there's a large ledge below that could be bad to smack which might in fact happen if you are not paying attention and catch you partner short: wouldn't you want a lot of friction in that instance? Mostly, for a long route with easier pitches, single biner is much faster, and often, on long routes: speed is safety.
Of course, trying to stay on topic which was the 2 carabiner issue. In the interest of being complete, if you do not clip either carabiner to your belay loop, you will have zero friction. I have only caught one person trying to do this via rappel from the top of a cliff, and fortunately I checked her rap device and didn't see it clipped in at all to her belay loop before she could kill herself. I grabbed her shirt just as she was unclipping the belay on a sloping ledge and pointed out the errors of her ways after leaning around her idiot boyfriend who was in between us and who had been looking towards me and babbling for 5 min instead of looking at her and checking her set up. I spent the next 2 min berating him...errrr edumaticing is a better word perhaps, on this issue as she was rappelling down.
Well, there some things to be thinking over on that single issue anyway, in case you didn't have enough already. I suppose I meant all this on my earlier post, but didn't get on it like I should have. Apologies extended sir.
Climb safe, have fun!
Regards
Bill
Edited for speling
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Feb 16, 2009, 6:03 AM)
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rgold
Feb 16, 2009, 5:59 AM
Post #47 of 73
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Registered: Dec 3, 2002
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US Navy, I think the Petzl Cordex gloves work find and will not have too great an impact on grip force. They are made for belaying and are intelligently thought out.
Belay gloves also protect your hands from grit and aluminum particles that are otherwise ground in, and are nice to have on when you are trying to disconnect the rope from a hot rappel device.
I used Metolius fingerless gloves for several years, but switched over to the Petzl full-fingered ones. The fingerless gloves still expose your fingertips to burning and, especially in hot weather, can be a struggle to remove.
And if you are one of those, like me, who suffer from cracked fingertip skin in very dry climates such as Red Rocks, then wearing your belay gloves on approaches and descents will keep your hands in much better shape.
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marc801
Feb 16, 2009, 6:27 AM
Post #48 of 73
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billcoe_ wrote: ...Twin rope technique means you are clipping every other piece, ......double rope technique which is clipping both ropes to each piece,...
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sungam
Feb 16, 2009, 6:53 AM
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marc801 wrote: billcoe_ wrote: ...Twin rope technique means you are clipping every other piece, ......double rope technique which is clipping both ropes to each piece,... You've got those terms reversed.
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qwert
Feb 16, 2009, 9:34 AM
Post #50 of 73
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Registered: Mar 24, 2004
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adatesman wrote: Thank goodness for archive.org.... I managed to track down a copy there. I'll split it up into several pieces sometime soon and put it up on RC somewhere for safe keeping. Looks like you're right and it shows palms up, which I find quite uncomfortable.
Albeit it looks like one, the TRE works different than a plate, so unlike with a plate the brake strand has to be above the device (just like with a munter).
At least for me, it is much more comfortable not to always have to switch the brake hand position when giving out slack.
Back to the main point: Thin and slippery ropes, combined with plate like devices are not the best idea.
The various high friction devices by different brands shure help, but for really high breaking power its either one of the new devices (like the TRE) or the claccic munter hitch.
My experience with using the munter with doubles is limited, but i remember it was not very comfortable. But it is doable. Rgold, should you try it, i would really like to hear about your findings.
qwert
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